User:Andrew Linden/Office Hours/2010 05 28

Transcript

[16:01]	Lag Frenzy:	hi Simon
[16:01]	Ardy Lay:	Hi Simon
[16:01]	Latif Khalifa:	ah simon is here :)
[16:02]	Simon Linden:	Hello
[16:02]	Ardy Lay:	You sure that's Simon? Looks like a woman to me.
[16:02]	Simon Linden:	Andrew can't make it this week
[16:02]	Jonathan Yap:	There is something a little wrong with the physics of those cubes; one is standing on edge
[16:02]	Ardy Lay:	I think all of SL is suffering "Ruth's revenge".
[16:03]	Lag Frenzy:	=^_^=
[16:03]	Latif Khalifa:	lol
[16:04]	Simon Linden:	Let's see ... server 1.36.6 was rolled out this week. It was basically the same as the earlier version, but some fixes to internal tools on the simulators. So no visible changes with it
[16:04]	Simon Linden:	The restart may help our crash rate a little, however :)
[16:05]	Latif Khalifa:	hehe
[16:05]	Lag Frenzy:	I did see messages about a new server version
[16:05]	Latif Khalifa:	hey morg :)
[16:06]	Lag Frenzy:	hi Morgaine
[16:06]	Morgaine Dinova:	Hi Latif :-)
[16:06]	Morgaine Dinova:	Hi Lag
[16:06]	Morgaine Dinova:	Hi Simon :-)
[16:06]	Simon Linden:	Not much else happening ... the 1.40 beta is chugging along. I'm not sure when the latest version was rolled out, but I submitted the fix for my last bug yesterday ... it was a region crasher that was caused by some of the new Havok code and sculpties
[16:06]	Simon Linden:	Hello Morgaine
[16:06]	Morgaine Dinova:	Talking to "lag" is a sure sign that SL has got to you ... :P
[16:07]	Latif Khalifa:	the multi-theaded region entry is scheduled for 1.42?
[16:07]	Lag Frenzy:	My main got logged out trying to TP hear =^_~=
[16:08]	Simon Linden:	So far, Latif. I've been working on that code today and it's close to being completed. It'll go to QA next week
[16:08]	Latif Khalifa:	did fall to your lap to make llsd serializers thread safe too? ;)
[16:08]	Simon Linden:	Well, I think I'm going to just make the part I need safe
[16:09]	Simon Linden:	Doing the full-blown operation would slow it down a bit
[16:09]	Latif Khalifa:	yeah
[16:09]	Latif Khalifa:	/me is wondering if you use binary llsd?
[16:09]	Simon Linden:	Yes, on region crossings most of the data is in binary llsd
[16:09]	Rex Cronon:	hello everybody
[16:09]	Latif Khalifa:	hey Rex
[16:09]	Simon Linden:	and TPs ... they are basically the same
[16:10]	Simon Linden:	Hi Rex
[16:10]	Rex Cronon:	hiii...:)
[16:10]	Rex Cronon:	although i don't have any reason to be smilling considering that my whole inventory has been rolled-back a few months:(
[16:11]	Simon Linden:	ouch
[16:11]	Jonathan Yap:	Can you get any back from the beta grid somehow?
[16:11]	Rex Cronon:	that is a little old too
[16:11]	Latif Khalifa:	so you're working on performance improvements mostly Simon?
[16:11]	Simon Linden:	I don't think there's any way to get inventory from the beta grid onto the main one
[16:12]	Rex Cronon:	yes. u use sencond inventory
[16:12]	Simon Linden:	At least not without some low-level database work. I don't think we even have tools that will do that ... they're built for the other way around, pulling entire inventory from the main grid onto others
[16:13]	Latif Khalifa:	i don't see how inventory could be reverted for a single user, i think the viewer is playing tircks with you
[16:13]	Rex Cronon:	i should have saved that mortar round
[16:13]	Latif Khalifa:	if a whole inventory server got rolled back, a lot of people would be affected
[16:14]	Latif Khalifa:	i'd still go with viewer problem
[16:14]	Jonathan Yap:	Is inventory sent alphabetically? Maybe you had packet loss and the full contents did not load
[16:14]	Morgaine Dinova:	The whole export thing is totally screwed up. All we're getting from LL is excuses really, "Full perm does not imply export perm out of SL". Well yeah fine, but you offer no alternative, so that's about as useful as the RIAA saying "No music sharing". Both Linden and RIAA are being completely ignored because they don't address reality.
[16:14]	Rex Cronon:	i just realized my inventory was borked a few hours ago
[16:15]	Latif Khalifa:	clear cache and relog and be patient while it loads again ;)
[16:15]	Morgaine Dinova:	Easy to despair of the whol situation.
[16:15]	Simon Linden:	yeah, I'm not familiar with the off-grid permissions details, but I don't think it's been moving along very much at all
[16:16]	Simon Linden:	So, any questions or issues that anyone would like to bring up?
[16:16]	Rex Cronon:	weird
[16:16]	Rex Cronon:	maybe wasn't rolled back
[16:16]	Latif Khalifa:	you're mostly on performance improvements these days Simon?
[16:16]	Morgaine Dinova:	Simon: the whole thing is just a joke, somewhere between total incompetence and (conspiracy theory version) an internal desire to block interop for commercial gain.
[16:17]	Rex Cronon:	i just did a search for mortar, and it found it, but i can't see it
[16:17]	Rex Cronon:	so maybe indeed needs to load
[16:17]	Latif Khalifa:	Rex, it's your viewer
[16:17]	Simon Linden:	Might have been the viewer doing some bad caching, or maybe it was incomplete when it loaded for some reason
[16:17]	Simon Linden:	Which viewer?
[16:17]	Rex Cronon:	1.23
[16:18]	Rex Cronon:	so how do i fix it?
[16:18]	Latif Khalifa:	clrear cache and relog and be patient
[16:18]	Morgaine Dinova:	I don't know which explanation is true, but I know that the whole thing is a joke. After 3 years of AWG, the only available route to interop is blocked by ToS/TPV. Hard to say anything positive at all.
[16:18]	Simon Linden:	Yeah, that's about all I know to do
[16:18]	Rex Cronon:	i clered and reloged
[16:18]	Lag Frenzy:	How possible would it be for a creator to have a flag set on their creation to the effect that it gives permission for anyone to copy or export
[16:18]	Morgaine Dinova:	It would be easy, Lag.
[16:18]	Latif Khalifa:	i cought up with Falcon on aditi
[16:19]	Latif Khalifa:	he's determined to bring hiearchical objects to SL, which is good news :)
[16:19]	Lag Frenzy:	Sure "allow anyone to copy" would be the way?
[16:19]	Morgaine Dinova:	It's not done because LL doesn't want to make it easy for competitors. Many of us would set the "OK to export" flag.
[16:19]	Simon Linden:	I'm not a party to the discussions, but my impression is interop is not high on the executives priorities these days
[16:19]	Morgaine Dinova:	You're right there, Simon.
[16:19]	Latif Khalifa:	that much is clear, but that's politics :P
[16:20]	Morgaine Dinova:	Progress in VWRAP is virtually nil.
[16:20]	Latif Khalifa:	let's talk about cool new technical stuff instead of politics :P
[16:20]	Simon Linden:	yeah, Falcon is really enthusiastic about doing some basic improvements. He's got some good stuff that will be coming out in 1.42 or maybe 1.44
[16:21]	Simon Linden:	There are some more tools for builders that should help make more efficient objectshelp make well-designed objects much more efficient ... so you might get a really better looking
[16:21]	Latif Khalifa:	I ask about joints, and he said we need hiearchical objects first, and that was something he wanted to do, which i think is awesome :)
[16:22]	Morgaine Dinova:	Wow, that would be cool
[16:22]	Simon Linden:	... err, bad editing there.
[16:22]	Simon Linden:	He's ambitious :)
[16:22]	Morgaine Dinova:	Falcon said he wanted hierarchical objects?
[16:22]	Latif Khalifa:	yup
[16:22]	Latif Khalifa:	he's the havok guru :)
[16:23]	Latif Khalifa:	also some cool improvements for vehicles
[16:23]	Morgaine Dinova:	Simon: it's not optional. In an engineering sense, SL is up dead-end creek without hierarchical objects. It's simply not possible to engineer from components.
[16:23]	Simon Linden:	I wonder why we need hiearchiacal objects for joints, but he definitely understands Havok internals, so I'll take his word for it
[16:23]	Simon Linden:	Morgaine - agreed, they're pretty basic
[16:24]	Latif Khalifa:	he said something about door on hinges
[16:24]	Simon Linden:	that's the most easy-to-understand example for people, and such a problem today
[16:24]	Latif Khalifa:	the frame would be one linksent in hiearchical object, frame another and hinges the joint between them
[16:24]	Morgaine Dinova:	Simon: it's not only needed for joints and hinges. It's needed for OBJECT COMPOSITION. Even when they don't move. A single-level linkset doesn't allow building from components, only from raw materials.
[16:25]	Morgaine Dinova:	So you can't ride on the shoulders of giants.
[16:25]	Simon Linden:	hmm, yeah, I can see that. For some real basics operations, however, I've just been thinking of some sort of center offset
[16:25]	Simon Linden:	So the 'center' might be placed on the inner edge of a door, and thus it would rotate around that
[16:25]	Simon Linden:	but I haven't dug into it or found out what that might break
[16:26]	Simon Linden:	Probably make linked prim positioning even more ugly
[16:26]	Latif Khalifa:	but the door knob would not be possible to attach to door in that scenario, right?
[16:27]	Simon Linden:	Well, there'd be another transformation involved to include the center offset and rotation to calculate the world position from the child-object position
[16:27]	Latif Khalifa:	i have to step out for 5 min
[16:27]	Morgaine Dinova:	In a H/O setting, you can ALWAYS attach something to something else. You don't need the creator's blessing to make a child object, nor to incorporate the object into an outer composite one.
[16:28]	Simon Linden:	But Andrew and Falcon are more of the phyics gurus and problably want a better, more complete solution
[16:28]	Morgaine Dinova:	Ie. the "glue" is not subject to permissions.
[16:29]	Morgaine Dinova:	It's not really a matter of "physics". It's at the glue level, where we currently have linksets.
[16:30]	Lag Frenzy:	and not just to do with movement either
[16:30]	Simon Linden:	Right, but it will affect the physics model and how objects there would rotate.
[16:30]	Morgaine Dinova:	Although physics has to know about it, since it deals with the center of gravity of a composite hierarchical objects.
[16:30]	Morgaine Dinova:	Yeah
[16:30]	Lag Frenzy:	I can envisage makers of architectural compents loving hierarchal objects
[16:30]	Simon Linden:	Anyway, I defer to Falcon on that one. It would be great to get in the future
[16:31]	Rex Cronon:	since there is no air friction center of gravity is kind of irrelevant for flying objects
[16:32]	Morgaine Dinova:	Lag: it's essential for engineering. You can't build a pyramid of ever-more-complex objects from components without it. Our whole civilization depends on hierarchical objects :-)
[16:32]	Arawn Spitteler:	There's a lawn mower, outside; could everyone type a little more loudly?
[16:32]	Simon Linden:	Right, it wouldn't matter there, but becomes important as soon as you collide with anything
[16:32]	Simon Linden:	CLICK CLICK
[16:32]	Lag Frenzy:	You're late, Arawn
[16:32]	Jonathan Yap:	You can't mute that lawn mower?
[16:32]	Arawn Spitteler:	Tardy
[16:33]	Lag Frenzy:	Lagged?
[16:35]	Arawn Spitteler:	/me wonders what he interrupted, being tardy in mention of SVC-22 and SVC-93: SHEEP
[16:35]	ROTATION and	llSetRot incorrectly implemented for child prims
[16:35]	Vehicles crossing	region borders aren't always treated as vehicles and can get incorrectly returned if the destination parcel is no-entry or parcel-full
[16:36]	Simon Linden:	I'm not going to make any promises, but having just looked at the region crossing code I think I understand how to fix SVC-22
[16:36]	Morgaine Dinova:	!!!
[16:36]	Lag Frenzy:	=^_^=
[16:37]	Jonathan Yap:	Arawan, don't pass out
[16:37]	Arawn Spitteler:	Wow, I'm going to run out of things to squawk about.
[16:37]	Arawn Spitteler:	Will the re be life, after SVC-22?
[16:37]	Latif Khalifa:	lol
[16:37]	Rex Cronon:	simon. please don't give false hope:)
[16:37]	Morgaine Dinova:	You sure it's legal to fix SVC-22? Might be an idea to consult with the FSM first
[16:38]	Latif Khalifa:	once SVC-22 is fixed, the universe as we know it will collapse, and a new one and infinitely more complex one will emerge :P
[16:38]	Morgaine Dinova:	/me chuckles
[16:38]	Simon Linden:	Of course, it's such a hassle to fill out the "I want to fix a bug" paperwork at LL, maybe it's not worth it.... :)
[16:38]	Morgaine Dinova:	Haha
[16:39]	Arawn Spitteler:	When you perfect SL, could you run for Congress? Nobody there, has ever figured out how to do that paperwork
[16:39]	Latif Khalifa:	lol
[16:40]	Simon Linden:	I know I'll never get that far ... I'm not even sure we'll get to the point where the pile of work seems to stop growning
[16:40]	Lag Frenzy:	The pile of things to fix will increase evermore
[16:40]	Rex Cronon:	knowing how to delegate is the key to working faster:)
[16:41]	Simon Linden:	and having someone to delegate to
[16:41]	Latif Khalifa:	i'm glad to see the emphasis on perfomace, those sim freezes are really killing the experience
[16:41]	Latif Khalifa:	but with simon's work, and mono 2.6, it should get much better in the next couple of versions :)
[16:41]	Latif Khalifa:	(i hope lol)
[16:41]	Arawn Spitteler:	You should see Facebook; when someone sends me a chat, I need to reboot.
[16:42]	Simon Linden:	I'm hoping too ... I think the perceptions have shifted after viewer 2 went out ... I guess all the problems aren't viewer UI ;)
[16:42]	Latif Khalifa:	95% problems are viewer2 UI :P
[16:42]	Ardy Lay:	Haha.... uhm. Wow.
[16:42]	Latif Khalifa:	just the exec are to stubborn to admit it ;)
[16:43]	Arawn Spitteler:	I'm on Snowglobe, right now. I was on V2 earlier, but I just prefer Snowglobe
[16:44]	Ardy Lay:	V2 is getting better every day. (build it from viewer-external and see)
[16:44]	Latif Khalifa:	anybody on viewer2 here? :P
[16:44]	Lag Frenzy:	i wonder how many oldbies use the unmodded v2
[16:44]	Latif Khalifa:	Ardy, it's getting worse lol
[16:44]	Simon Linden:	I haven't been following the open source viewer news ... so are people continuing to improve the old 1.23-based Snowglobe much?
[16:44]	Jonathan Yap:	I was on viewer 2 for a few minuutes to test the new search
[16:44]	Lag Frenzy:	/me is using a heavily tweaked v2
[16:44]	Latif Khalifa:	i tried viewer-trunk it's worse than 2.0
[16:45]	Ardy Lay:	Simon, that's a current topic of discussion on the mailing list.
[16:45]	Simon Linden:	I'm pretty much converted to use our internal viewer beta ... basically the latest development version
[16:45]	Lag Frenzy:	2.1 beta?
[16:45]	Simon Linden:	I gave up on that list a year or more back, it got to be too much to follow
[16:45]	Sindra Aquila:	snowglobe is faster, is there a specasil reason why v2 is slower?
[16:45]	Morgaine Dinova:	I use Imprudence. On Linux, nothing beats it for stability in SL and in Opensim. It simply stays up, permanent.
[16:45]	Ardy Lay:	Second Life 2.0.2 (205424) May 28 2010 04:19:58 is what I am running at the moment.
[16:46]	Ardy Lay:	I still prefer SG1.4
[16:46]	Latif Khalifa:	Ardy, local chat input got even smaller on that one with all the buttons
[16:46]	Simon Linden:	I don't really know about the performance problems with 2.0 ... I think the last updates addressed some of them
[16:46]	Latif Khalifa:	plus inventory lost the menu
[16:46]	Ardy Lay:	Latif, it's dragable
[16:47]	Latif Khalifa:	Ardy, they put 5 buttons on it + icons for IM conversation + notifications + chat input, just not enough space
[16:47]	Ardy Lay:	Grab the right edge of the chat input section and drag it.
[16:47]	Lag Frenzy:	I've never noticed any speed variations between viewers on my present computer
[16:47]	Ardy Lay:	Turn off the buttons you do not use.
[16:47]	Ardy Lay:	Right click and uncheck
[16:47]	Latif Khalifa:	well i want them, what's the point lol
[16:47]	Sindra Aquila:	well i do, snowglobe seesm perform better especially in lag, iwondered why?
[16:48]	Latif Khalifa:	still non-transparent floaters, still obscuring the world, still no focus on chat input
[16:48]	Ardy Lay:	The inventory menu is hiding under the gear widget at the bottom.
[16:48]	Arawn Spitteler:	Snowglobe doesn't rez what's behind us.
[16:48]	Lag Frenzy:	maybe the graphics setting are different
[16:48]	Simon Linden:	I _think_ they did some work on the texture loading, so that would definitely change how things are drawn
[16:48]	Latif Khalifa:	yeah http textures is going to be a big win
[16:48]	Latif Khalifa:	/me was testign that on aditi
[16:50]	Simon Linden:	Right, and I believe they also changed the prioritization of the texture requests ... it's sometimes odd how things far off will get drawn first. There are a lot of factors involves (like the cache) and it still needs more work
[16:50]	Simon Linden:	That actually may be my next project ... trying to make the simulator and viewer smarter about the data sent down so things can draw quicker
[16:50]	Latif Khalifa:	i hear implementation of interest lists in the sim is scary :P
[16:51]	Simon Linden:	yeah, it's complicated and can have some pretty odd side-effects when it breaks
[16:51]	Arawn Spitteler:	Is amazed that anything in SL would have to break, to produce odd side efects.
[16:51]	Simon Linden:	I know there are some fundamental problems ... like using the AV position when it really should be using the camera position
[16:52]	Arawn Spitteler:	Should use both
[16:52]	Simon Linden:	That's why you don't get detail when you fly the camera off a ways ... the distance is being done from the AV location, not the camera
[16:52]	Latif Khalifa:	yeah, that's totally screwed up
[16:53]	Simon Linden:	plus it would be nice if the viewer could tell the simulator more about what it wants ... maybe give a better indication of the level of detail it can handle, so we don't try sending a lot of info to a simple viewer
[16:53]	Latif Khalifa:	yes, that would be nice too
[16:53]	Arawn Spitteler:	From Camera Position, you'd be taking a closer look at things, and wouldn't need the distance.
[16:55]	Latif Khalifa:	yeah, but the sim doesn't send you object updates for small objects, so looking at stuff sometimes just as far as 30m doesn't work
[16:55]	Latif Khalifa:	if prim is say 0.3m or smaller
[16:55]	Ardy Lay:	0.5 meter cube drops out at 16 meters
[16:56]	Ardy Lay:	Light sources increase that distance for some reason.
[16:56]	Simon Linden:	Correct, Latif, but I'm pretty sure the calculations it's doing in situations like that aren't very good. It doesn't drop off in the distance as fast as it should
[16:56]	Simon Linden:	Hmm, interesting note about light sources. I wonder if they get special treatment
[16:57]	Latif Khalifa:	doing calculation off camera position would be major improvemetn
[16:57]	Ardy Lay:	Interest updates have to be velocity throttled too.
[16:58]	Morgaine Dinova:	Where the camera is looking should only affect prioritization, not completely cut off transmission.
[16:58]	Simon Linden:	Right, when you add moving objects it gets more interesting, as it is nice to predict what will come closer or into view
[16:59]	Morgaine Dinova:	Yup
[16:59]	Ardy Lay:	If your position is changing rapidly then interest list recalculation seems to be a large load on the region server.
[16:59]	Morgaine Dinova:	Server should never determine interest list. It's a viewer optimization.
[17:00]	Simon Linden:	yes ... there are checks almost every frame when something is moving ... a calculation of "does this viewer want to see that object"
[17:00]	Latif Khalifa:	Morgaine, server has to do interest list, client doesn't know which objects are in the sim
[17:00]	Simon Linden:	I mostly agree, Morgaine ... I think the viewer should be able to set a lot of the parameters that determine what info it will get
[17:01]	Simon Linden:	So it can say "I'm high bandwidth, high power, give me lots of detail and high range", etc
[17:01]	Morgaine Dinova:	A viewer on a cellphone would have very different requests for objects than one on a desktop. The server can't know.
[17:01]	Simon Linden:	or the opposite
[17:01]	Simon Linden:	We have some of that data now but it can be improved and probably a few more settings added
[17:01]	Latif Khalifa:	yeah, giving server the params on how to optimize the interest list would be really nice
[17:02]	Morgaine Dinova:	Latif: no, the server can trivially inform the viewer of everything that is around, but it's up to the viewer to tell the server what it wants. The viewer can't possibly know
[17:02]	Ardy Lay:	Viewer writes a filter to send to the server when then send back a list of objects that pass the filter.
[17:02]	Morgaine Dinova:	Oops, typo --- the server can't possibly know
[17:02]	Simon Linden:	It's also interesting how the spectrum of viewers is widening ... there are a lot more low-end systems out there such as phones and netbooks
[17:02]	Morgaine Dinova:	Yep, as Ardy says
[17:03]	Morgaine Dinova:	The viewer says "What's around?", the server says A, B, C, the viewers says "Gimme A and C"
[17:03]	Morgaine Dinova:	The server can't possibly tell that the viewer can only see red things.
[17:03]	Latif Khalifa:	it must seem that simple if you don't actually implemetn anything
[17:03]	Rex Cronon:	the viewer can also say give me only their pos and size:)
[17:03]	Morgaine Dinova:	Yep Rex
[17:03]	Simon Linden:	Right ... I hope we can set that filter so it doesn't add to the communication much ... something that gets the viewer parameters, rather than asking repeatedly "do you want to see this"
[17:04]	Latif Khalifa:	the real viewer has to take into account stuff, i need 20m house from 120m away but not 0.2m object 40m away
[17:04]	Lag Frenzy:	so the viewer send something like Ultra-resolution, 256m, LOD=4?
[17:04]	Simon Linden:	At least the textures are already sent down based on a viewer request
[17:05]	Morgaine Dinova:	Yep, that bit seems to have a request-based protocol
[17:05]	Simon Linden:	Rigth, something like that. Or maybe sends a map that shows how the detail levels are ... less detail when it's behind you or distant, more if it's close by and in front of you
[17:05]	Ardy Lay:	Sometimes I wish that I could just get the everage color for a face as I am flying over, not get the texture. THat data is in the texture header but only the map server seems to render with it.
[17:06]	Simon Linden:	That's come up too ... a really, really simple texture subsitute
[17:06]	Morgaine Dinova:	Latif: the server can't know what the viewer's FoV is. A 20m house might be tiny or huge, or it might not even be visible and hence be right down the bottom of priority
[17:06]	Simon Linden:	Anyway, it seems like an interesting project.
[17:06]	Ardy Lay:	I could turn off textures and just render the face to average color and get zippy low bandwidth travel.
[17:06]	Simon Linden:	I gotta run, so thanks everyone for coming and the interesting ideas
[17:06]	Latif Khalifa:	every time you move the camera viewer sends FoV update to the sim
[17:07]	Morgaine Dinova:	Yep Ardy
[17:07]	Latif Khalifa:	have a nice weekend Simon
[17:07]	Latif Khalifa:	and a long one :)
[17:07]	Lag Frenzy:	cya & Thank You Simon
[17:07]	Morgaine Dinova:	Latif: the more the sim does, the more non-scalable it is.
[17:07]	Rex Cronon:	tc simon
[17:07]	Morgaine Dinova:	Cya Simon :-)
[17:07]	Simon Linden:	Thanks all ... yes, have a nice weekend, 'specailly if you have a long one
[17:07]	Arawn Spitteler:	Now that you know, how to solve SVC-22, be very careful of Trolley Cars.
[17:07]	Morgaine Dinova:	Haha
[17:07]	Simon Linden:	:)
[17:07]	Trendone Engineer:	well its not the sim
[17:08]	Simon Linden:	bye
[17:08]	Ardy Lay:	Bye Simon

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