User:Andrew Linden/Office Hours/2010 06 08

Transcript

[11:00]	Welcome to	Linden office hours
[11:00]	Ardy Lay:	Hi Simon
[11:00]	Rex Cronon:	hi simon
[11:00]	Simon Linden:	Hello
[11:00]	Arawn Spitteler:	CG is down on his recently re-expanded estate. Hi, Simon
[11:00]	Vickie Greenwood	waves to Simon
[11:00]	xstorm Radek:	hi Ruth Linden
[11:01]	Bronson Blackadder:	meow
[11:01]	Arawn Spitteler:	Hi, Andrew, I've a Doctorate for you, if you want to do all the work.
[11:01]	Ardy Lay:	Hi Andrew
[11:01]	Rex Cronon:	hello andrew
[11:01]	Andrew Linden:	Hi
[11:01]	Arawn Spitteler:	Is there a Ruth Linden, now?
[11:02]	Vickie Greenwood:	Hello Andrew :)
[11:02]	xstorm Radek:	hi Simon and Andrew :-)
[11:02]	Andrew Linden:	Ok first item of business... we need to reschedule this Tuesday meeting.
[11:03]	Ovaltine Constantine:	I vote for 11:04
[11:03]	Andrew Linden:	I've got a new meeting I have to attend at 11:45 most Tuesdays.
[11:03]	Simon Linden:	me too
[11:03]	Arawn Spitteler:	10:45?
[11:03]	Andrew Linden:	Yes, 10:45 would work.
[11:03]	Simon Linden:	Well, we could start a little earlier, or cut this short too
[11:03]	xstorm Radek:	Andrew may ask you some think about boanding box data as seem by user and server side on the Aditi ?
[11:04]	Andrew Linden:	Or yeah, we could keep this one at the same time, but have it end at 11:45.
[11:04]	xstorm Radek:	ok :-)
[11:04]	xstorm Radek:	sounds great
[11:04]	Stickman Ingmann:	Just pretend I'm not late.
[11:04]	xstorm Radek:	i just need to ask less stuff
[11:04]	xstorm Radek:	;-)
[11:05]	Rex Cronon:	doesn't sound too bad. lets try it for a while and see how it works
[11:05]	Andrew Linden:	To be honest, it is sometimes hard to fill an entire hour. I usually don't have much news and can't get stuff done fast enough to keep bi-weekly meetings moving along.
[11:05]	Arawn Spitteler:	The extra time should be used in Brainstorming, as a user experience.
[11:06]	Andrew Linden:	Ok. We'll keep this meeting at 11:00 and cut it off early.
[11:06]	Andrew Linden:	And see how that goes.
[11:06]	Arawn Spitteler	casually slips in ritual holy mention of SVC-22 and (sheep) SVC-93
[11:06]	ROTATION and	llSetRot incorrectly implemented for child prims
[11:06]	Vehicles crossing	region borders aren't always treated as vehicles and can get incorrectly returned if the destination parcel is no-entry or parcel-full
[11:06]	Ardy Lay:	Andrew, I was going to offer you a JIRA issue for the offline IM to email problem but It just got closed "contact support", who has, so far, been unsupportive on this issue.
[11:06]	xstorm Radek:	Andrew im looking at how prims are seen by the physics engine and the user side can you may be fill me in on some thing when you get time ?
[11:06]	Rex Cronon:	didn't simon say that he might be able to fix svc22:)
[11:07]	Bronson Blackadder:	yeah Im not getting all my offline IMs to email too
[11:07]	Andrew Linden:	Ardy, tell me the jira # anyway. It may have clues in the comments and I'll be interested.
[11:07]	Arawn Spitteler:	I recall 93 is waiting on a spare developer moment.
[11:07]	Ardy Lay:	SVC-5251
[11:07]	Offline messages	not being sent to email
[11:07]	Andrew Linden:	Ok thanks.
[11:07]	Ardy Lay:	I should maybe add to that.
[11:07]	Rex Cronon:	well. i get my IMs to my email, even when i am online. i am talking about IMs sent by objects
[11:08]	Andrew Linden:	xstorm, what would you like to know about prim physics?
[11:08]	xstorm Radek:	ok im seeing two things happen on Agni and Aditi thats not the same
[11:09]	Simon Linden:	yeah, I've been working on region crossing code and seeing what a mess vehicles are :)
[11:09]	xstorm Radek:	is the boanting shape not the same on the two servers ?
[11:09]	xstorm Radek:	bounding box
[11:10]	Andrew Linden:	the "bounding box"? as in... the bounding box used for the broadphase collision detection?
[11:10]	xstorm Radek:	yes
[11:10]	Andrew Linden:	Or the size of boxes? as in... box shapes have changed?
[11:10]	xstorm Radek:	collisoon
[11:10]	xstorm Radek:	if i can type with no typoes
[11:11]	Andrew Linden:	as far as I know the shape and size of boxes have not changed in Havok7.
[11:11]	xstorm Radek:	ok im not getting the same test pattern then
[11:11]	Andrew Linden:	nor has the "collision radius", which is that feature where objects collide when not quite touching.
[11:11]	Andrew Linden:	how do you test?
[11:11]	Andrew Linden:	What does your test setup look like?
[11:12]	xstorm Radek:	i have a rezzer that rez prims to one point
[11:12]	Arawn Spitteler:	Andrew can carry the same build, between grids, so he'd only need one copy, if I recall.
[11:12]	xstorm Radek:	same test is not the same on the two systems
[11:13]	Andrew Linden:	the prims collide against each other?
[11:13]	Andrew Linden:	are stacked?
[11:13]	Andrew Linden:	or do you collide your avatar against them?
[11:13]	xstorm Radek:	Agni is sending to prims out from the center and Aditi puts them in to a ball
[11:13]	Andrew Linden:	simple boxes? or more complex shapes?
[11:13]	xstorm Radek:	any shape
[11:14]	Andrew Linden:	oh I see... interpenetrating boxes
[11:14]	xstorm Radek:	yes
[11:14]	Andrew Linden:	you're watching how the "penetration resolver" is moving penetrating objects apart
[11:14]	Ardy Lay:	Are you rezzing a quantity of identical prims at a single coordinate then setting them physical?
[11:14]	xstorm Radek:	yes i am
[11:14]	Andrew Linden:	yeah, it wouldn't be surprising if the resolver algorithm has changed in Havok7
[11:14]	xstorm Radek:	it will be a ticking time bomb if thats not fix
[11:15]	lonetorus Habilis:	bomb?
[11:15]	Andrew Linden:	well, H4 already has some penetration resolution code
[11:15]	Andrew Linden:	so a pile of such penetrating objects will expand
[11:15]	Ardy Lay:	The primary goal of the penetration resolver should be to not harm the simulator performance no matter what goofiness xstorm throws at it. :-)
[11:16]	Stickman Ingmann:	H4 penetration resolution code is way better than H1. Doesn't lock up the sim, or cause things to go flying a mile away when resolved.
[11:16]	Andrew Linden:	but when you say "bomb" are you refering to the expanding nature of the pile? or the lag effect it has on the physics engine?
[11:16]	Stickman Ingmann:	Though, the explosions sure were fun.
[11:16]	Stickman Ingmann:	If H7 brings explosions back, I'm all for it.
[11:16]	xstorm Radek:	im crashing it Andrew
[11:17]	Andrew Linden:	Unfortunately it would be hard to maintain the penetration resolution behavior as the physics engine is upgraded
[11:17]	Stickman Ingmann:	Interpenetrating prims crashes havoc 7. Do you have a consistent repro, xstorm?
[11:17]	xstorm Radek:	it got the nick name of Ball of doom
[11:17]	Techwolf Lupindo:	I got here on SL over H1. I understand H4 broke a lot of good content. Like rollorcoasters and wind chimes.
[11:17]	Ardy Lay:	You are crashing the simulator or the penetration resolver is "giving up"?
[11:17]	Techwolf Lupindo:	over=after
[11:17]	xstorm Radek:	what about a time order of rez and temp ?
[11:18]	Stickman Ingmann:	I'm still not sure what the problem you're talking about is, xstorm. :(
[11:18]	xstorm Radek:	this way it give the computer time to do the math better
[11:18]	Andrew Linden:	Are the balls of doom crashing the simulator?
[11:18]	xstorm Radek:	yes
[11:18]	Andrew Linden:	Hrm... I heard via email that there are two bugs that they'd like to see fixed for server-1.40
[11:19]	xstorm Radek:	one is not to bad but more then one is nasty
[11:19]	Andrew Linden:	one is a crash bug. Might correlate with the ball of doom.
[11:19]	Andrew Linden:	The other is that stacked objects will not collapse if support objects are deleted out from under.
[11:19]	xstorm Radek:	mmmhhh
[11:20]	xstorm Radek:	may be thats the trigger im looking for
[11:20]	Arawn Spitteler:	How can we make a tower of balls to demonstrate physics?
[11:20]	xstorm Radek:	yes they are
[11:20]	Andrew Linden:	I'm sure Falcon can fix the stack of objects not falling problem.
[11:20]	xstorm Radek:	yes Falcon told me to keep testing on Aditi
[11:20]	Andrew Linden:	But the crash bug... if he hasn't found a fix for that yet I wonder if he'll get it done in time for release.
[11:21]	xstorm Radek:	im just trying to find out what the triggers are to a crash
[11:21]	Andrew Linden:	He's been watching the crash stats pretty closely.
[11:21]	Andrew Linden:	The repro recipe is to just rez a deep enough pile of objects at the same spot?
[11:22]	xstorm Radek:	i know there must be some point that the sim will stop and can not do the lext step
[11:22]	Andrew Linden:	xstorm do you have a feel for how many it takes to trigger the crash?
[11:22]	xstorm Radek:	yes i do now
[11:22]	Andrew Linden:	I would guess that concave prims would work better than just boxes. Have you noticed this?
[11:22]	Simon Linden:	I was going to look into that crash bug today
[11:23]	xstorm Radek:	i will not say more but its nasty lol
[11:23]	xstorm Radek:	last one seem like the sim fell apart on me
[11:24]	Andrew Linden:	xstorm, you won't say more publicly?
[11:24]	xstorm Radek:	yep
[11:24]	Stickman Ingmann:	File a SEC Jira or talk straight to Falcon about it?
[11:24]	Andrew Linden:	ok that's fine. As Simon said, he might be able to look into it.
[11:24]	Andrew Linden:	I'm sure he's interested in the details.
[11:25]	xstorm Radek:	now that i now know what to look at more
[11:25]	xstorm Radek:	saves me time
[11:25]	Andrew Linden:	the physics engine does some special stuff when the physics performance starts to lag heavily
[11:25]	Andrew Linden:	it starts to change the collision shape of objects to be simpler under extreme physics lag
[11:26]	Andrew Linden:	that is why chains of dynamic tori will fly apart when lag spikes
[11:26]	xstorm Radek:	if that can be cut down then sim crossings will get better too i feel
[11:26]	Andrew Linden:	the "changing shapes on the fly" stuff needs to be done carefully
[11:27]	Andrew Linden:	if not done with enough care it might be possible to leave dangline pointers to shapes that are no longer being used
[11:27]	xstorm Radek:	that i have seen
[11:27]	Andrew Linden:	which is why concave shapes would probably be more problematic than just boxes
[11:28]	Andrew Linden:	boxes are already about as simple as they can get
[11:28]	Andrew Linden:	but concave shapes can be substituted with much simpler shapes (boxes)
[11:28]	xstorm Radek:	:-) now i understand
[11:28]	Andrew Linden:	if you do that, and also put objects in the pile that might be deleted on the fly (temp on rez or llDie()) then you complicate matters even more
[11:29]	Andrew Linden:	deleting an object from a pile that has lots of collision points with backpointers to the objects involved means more cleanup to do (and to get wrong)
[11:30]	office hours	is half over
[11:30]	Arawn Spitteler:	Shouldn't all collision points be mutual?
[11:30]	Liisa Runo:	would be cool if there would be some tolerance on it, so very short lag spikes dont trigger the phys shape morphing
[11:30]	Andrew Linden:	so if I were to guess a sim crasher recipe that's what I would do... make a pile of linked tori that try to unlink and randomly delete themselves
[11:31]	Techwolf Lupindo:	I have the feeling the mono bug is driving that physics lag detector nuts.
[11:31]	Andrew Linden:	which mono bug specificaliy?
[11:31]	Stickman Ingmann:	The 20ms delay on rez, I imagine.
[11:31]	Andrew Linden:	ah
[11:31]	Liisa Runo:	why try to crash sim with phys when it can be done with 1 non-scripted non-physical prim :P
[11:32]	Stickman Ingmann:	I'm releasing an update for my avatar soon that removes all non-essential mono scripts, makes them LSL. The slower performance makes up for it in memory savings, and lack of lag when wearing/teleporting.
[11:32]	Andrew Linden:	yeah, and also adding an object into an existing pile of objects is more costly to the phys engine than adding an object into an empty area
[11:32]	Simon Linden:	The system is pretty careful to only alter the shapes if physics is slow, not just the rest of the simulation
[11:32]	Techwolf Lupindo:	I built and have a working sim crasher that been working for the past year and a half. LONG time to fix that one.
[11:32]	Andrew Linden:	Liisa Runo, how do you crash the simulator with a single non-scripted non-physical prim?
[11:32]	Liisa Runo:	secret
[11:33]	Arawn Spitteler:	Inquiring Mimes want to know.
[11:33]	Simon Linden:	wow, can I have one? :)
[11:33]	Stickman Ingmann:	I think the Lindens should know this secret, Liisa. :p
[11:33]	Liisa Runo:	i can tell you but not in public chat
[11:33]	Andrew Linden:	Ok, yeah we'd like to hear about it.
[11:33]	Andrew Linden:	You could open a SEC jira item too.
[11:34]	Andrew Linden:	One irony is that if you were to tell us in public chat we'd probably come up with a fix faster ;-)
[11:34]	Techwolf Lupindo:	Andrew, LL won't get much SEC jira with the current bounty. The amount is beyound a joke.
[11:34]	Techwolf Lupindo:	:-(
[11:35]	Vickie Greenwood:	public chat it is then ;)
[11:35]	Andrew Linden:	The bounty is still L$10k, right?
[11:35]	Rex Cronon:	there is a bounty? for what?
[11:35]	Techwolf Lupindo:	I think so, not sure. Hvn't check it in years.
[11:36]	Stickman Ingmann:	http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Security_issues Wiki says L$10k.
[11:36]	Techwolf Lupindo:	That translate into...*calcs..*
[11:36]	Liisa Runo:	and residents say that they get banned if they report things like that to SEC
[11:36]	Stickman Ingmann:	About US$35.
[11:36]
[11:36]	Andrew Linden:	If you discover a crash bug, security exploit, or permissions exploit, and are the first to report it, then you are elligible to receive a L$10k bounty reward.
[11:37]	Andrew Linden:	No, we don't ban residents for reporting SEC issues.
[11:37]	Alexia Leborski:	has any bounty reward been paid since that was posted?
[11:37]	xstorm Radek:	I hope not
[11:37]	Andrew Linden:	However, submitting a valid SEC issue would not protect you from banishment if you were doing other ban-worthy things.
[11:38]	Liisa Runo:	yea, he prolly was
[11:38]	Techwolf Lupindo:	around $30 dollors....that is a joke.
[11:38]	Andrew Linden:	Yes, many bounties have been paid.
[11:38]	Andrew Linden:	Phoenix Linden used to pay out
[11:38]	xstorm Radek:	i will get her a new one or two
[11:38]	Andrew Linden:	and I used to fix some of the bugs and would often get an update email about the bounty being paid.
[11:38]	xstorm Radek:	ooppsss
[11:38]	Liisa Runo:	we are getting off topic, lets continue with the physics
[11:38]	Andrew Linden:	However, I haven't seen a bounty paid recently (several months).
[11:39]	Andrew Linden:	Not that they aren't being found, fixed, and paid. But I haven't been involved.
[11:39]	EpicGordon Broome:	How is it a joke, Techwolf? If you discover a security hole that could easily reduce the user experience of you, and others, getting rid of it as fast as possible would be ideal for you? Getting paid for it, on top, should be an added bonus. :)
[11:39]	Andrew Linden:	Ok about physics...
[11:39]	Arawn Spitteler:	What's the status Temp on Rez?
[11:39]	Andrew Linden:	Kitto Flora came to OH a couple weeks ago
[11:39]	Andrew Linden:	and mentioned that vehicles were hitting prim seams on his train tracks.
[11:39]	Andrew Linden:	I think that Falcon found and fixed that bug
[11:40]	Rex Cronon:	the amount paid is quite low, considering the service u do for everybody else:)
[11:40]	Andrew Linden:	it is probably deployed to Aditi by now (should have been deployed lat week or earlier)
[11:40]	Andrew Linden:	but am not 100% sure
[11:40]	Ardy Lay:	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-2006  ???
[11:40]	Spheres bounce	when rolling over flat seams in Havok 4.
[11:40]	Andrew Linden:	Arawn? You're wondering what the status is on "temp on rez"? I don't understand the question.
[11:41]	Liisa Runo:	the status on tep rezzing is that your allowed to put 15K prim to 400m2 parcel if you can do it without too much lag
[11:41]	Arawn Spitteler:	I'm trying to recall how to set temp, without looking it up.
[11:41]	xstorm Radek:	?
[11:41]	Andrew Linden:	yeah, well the spheres bouncing over seams isn't fixed... but there was some special logic for ground vehicles that was momentarilly lost, but recovered in H7.
[11:41]	xstorm Radek:	bumps like that again ?
[11:41]	Ardy Lay:	Ahh....
[11:42]	Andrew Linden:	oh... the temp-on-rez limits haven't changed afaik
[11:42]	Stickman Ingmann:	Liisa, from the wiki: Max. number of temporary prims - regular_prim_limit - current_regular_prims + minimum(0.5 * regular_prim_limit + 400, 1000) , cites Andrew as the source, 2009 discussion: http://forums-archive.secondlife.com/8/cd/305651/1.html
[11:42]	Stickman Ingmann:	I don't know if that equation comes out to 15k on a 400m2 parcel.
[11:42]	Andrew Linden:	I think Falcon has an idea on how to reduce the "odd collisions at seams" problem for all objects, even rolling spheres that aren't "vehicles"
[11:43]	Liisa Runo:	yes, and with this math you get to put 15K prims to 400m2 area if you cut the land to small peieces
[11:43]	Andrew Linden:	but it needs more thinking/design, and won't be part of H7's initial release
[11:43]	Andrew Linden:	we'll have to work on that later
[11:43]	Simon Linden:	I have to run to my 11:45 meeting ... thanks everyone for coming, see you next time
[11:43]	Rex Cronon:	tc andrew
[11:44]	Ardy Lay:	Thanks Simon
[11:44]	Stickman Ingmann:	So you propose to have the limit lower, Liisa? If your math is right (I can only assume it is, I'm not that fast with math) that sounds like a reasonable request.
[11:44]	Andrew Linden:	ah yes, cutting the land to small spaces helps pile the temp-on-rez objects
[11:44]	xstorm Radek:	than you simon and andrew
[11:44]	Andrew Linden:	BTW, I mentioned earlier today that we're going to have to cut these Tuesday meetings short (or move the hour)
[11:44]	Andrew Linden:	I've got an 11:45 meeting that I have to attend most Tuesdays.
[11:45]	Andrew Linden:	However, today I'm blowing that meeting off... I'm working from home today
[11:45]	Andrew Linden:	and don't have voice capability anyway.
[11:45]	Stickman Ingmann:	hax
[11:45]	Ardy Lay:	Heh
[11:45]
[11:45]	Andrew Linden:	We talked about it earlier this hour and decided to try to cut this hour short at 11:45 rather than reschedule it.
[11:45]	Rex Cronon:	oops i said tc andrew, instead of tc simon:)
[11:45]	Liisa Runo:	i dont like limits, i like policy, people should still be able to rz temp stuff without worry, but not keep re-rezzing them to cheat tier money from LL
[11:46]	Andrew Linden:	I prefer logic laws to the world rather than policy.
[11:46]	Liisa Runo:	making temp objects permanent should be banned
[11:46]	Andrew Linden:	That is, I prefer limits -- make the software enforce the policy for you... takes less man power.
[11:46]	Vickie Greenwood:	if it can be done people will do it.. age old rule of MMOs
[11:46]	Andrew Linden:	right
[11:47]	Liisa Runo:	sure, i dont mind if someone come up with code that can enforce that people dont cheat, go for it
[11:47]	Andrew Linden:	that is also a "law of the natural world" -- if it can happen then it does
[11:47]	xstorm Radek:	:-) MMO is not old lolstop making me feel to old
[11:47]	Bronson Blackadder:	whats annoying as hell is seeing someone has a parcel big enough to handle all teh prims on hi sland... but everything on hi sland is on a temp rezzor
[11:47]	Vickie Greenwood:	sure it is, never heard of nethack.. geez.. young whippersnappers these days..
[11:47]	Vickie Greenwood:	get off my lawn ;)
[11:48]	Bronson Blackadder:	hits the sim with lag spikes all the time when it re rezzes everything on his parcel
[11:48]	Alexia Leborski:	Take Care...I have to run
[11:48]	Liisa Runo:	it is just stupid to live in a place where someone think 1000 flowers is worth havign TD below 0.5
[11:48]	Bronson Blackadder:	I think he just like sthe novelty of seeing the box zipping around his parcel
[11:48]	Andrew Linden:	yeah, individual rezzes should cost L$1 (not going to happen, just sayin')
[11:48]	EpicGordon Broome:	I have seen residental sims constantly on their knees, because of tem-rezzers being used on every other plot, cranking out several thousand new prims every thirty secs. Albeit largely frowned upon, it's a common, and problematic, issue.
[11:49]	Rex Cronon:	tc
[11:49]	xstorm Radek:	lol oh you have not seen any thing yet i have seen people try to fit a 300 prim home on a 512 just to put it on the LL Road lol
[11:49]	lonetorus Habilis:	vickie, and how about colossal cave ;)
[11:49]	Vickie Greenwood:	im trying to approach the issue from the content creation side.. and simply build 1000 flowers that only take 1 prim, or complete houses like that.
[11:49]	Vickie Greenwood:	making temprezzers useless
[11:50]	Rex Cronon:	if individual rezes cost 1L$ then bullets will die
[11:50]	Andrew Linden:	hrm...
[11:50]	EpicGordon Broome:	Hee. If sculpts had proper boundary boxes, entire buildings could be made out of a single prim. =P
[11:50]	Skills Hak:	you are likely to be eaten by a grue
[11:50]	xstorm Radek:	:-)
[11:50]	Stickman Ingmann:	Yeah, that's one of the ideas to combat piracy. Make it easier to buy and acquire legally than to pirate. Same principle with temp-on-rez items could work.
[11:50]	Bronson Blackadder:	thats really funny most bullets are about a buck apeice anyway
[11:50]	Stickman Ingmann:	Hard road, though.
[11:50]	Bronson Blackadder:	lol
[11:50]	Vickie Greenwood:	even without bounding boxes, i could rez highly detailed building with a primcount that would make your jaw drop.. its all about how you do it really.
[11:51]	xstorm Radek:	ok Vickie Greenwood scares me im seeing my self 2 years back lol
[11:51]	Vickie Greenwood	leans over to xstorms ear and goes:Boo!
[11:51]	EpicGordon Broome:	I doubt it would make my jaw drop, but yes, I know what you mean. <:
[11:51]	Andrew Linden:	With mesh it will be possible to rez such "single object houses"
[11:52]	EpicGordon Broome:	Yes, so I've ehard.
[11:52]	Andrew Linden:	however... the load on physics is more than just one legacy prim
[11:52]	EpicGordon Broome:	Heard*
[11:52]	xstorm Radek:	mesh ????
[11:52]	xstorm Radek:	why the mesh ?
[11:52]	Stickman Ingmann:	xstorm, mesh has been in private beta for a while and public beta is announced to happen soon.
[11:52]	Skills Hak:	because of collisions but you could do that witch sculpties too
[11:52]	Rex Cronon:	if meshes will look to havok as simple boxes then will be quite useless as houses
[11:52]	EpicGordon Broome:	No longer having to go by sculptmaps when importing from zBrush will be a delightful change of pace.
[11:52]	xstorm Radek:	you do understand its not the mesh it self you need ?
[11:53]	Andrew Linden:	yeah, we're working on a "mesh feature", where you can define objects as arbitrary meshes and upload them into the world -- it has been announced publicly, but aren't saying much else about it.
[11:53]	Rex Cronon:	and how will u be able to open a door or a window if the whole house is a single mesh?
[11:53]	Skills Hak:	using volumedetect
[11:53]	Andrew Linden:	don't make the door part of the main mesh
[11:53]	EpicGordon Broome:	Or use animated sculpts. =P
[11:53]	Vickie Greenwood:	you could have the very same thing for sculpts, theres jiras about it too..
[11:53]	Arawn Spitteler:	Or, you could shift meshes.
[11:53]	EpicGordon Broome:	Yep
[11:53]	Andrew Linden:	yeah, but to change sculpty behavior would break content
[11:54]	xstorm Radek	shakes head
[11:54]	Vickie Greenwood:	Not necessarily Andrew
[11:54]	Rex Cronon:	if a door is not part of the main mesh then u no longer have a single prim house:)
[11:54]	Andrew Linden:	and sculpty technology is not widly addopted in the world of 3D generation tools
[11:54]	EpicGordon Broome:	Oh, I'm curious about a certain thing - how will LoD be with meshes? Nonexistant?
[11:54]	Andrew Linden:	meshes will have Level of Detail (LoD) rules yes
[11:54]	Vickie Greenwood:	Actually, more and more 3d generation tools are coming out with built in sculpt support.
[11:54]	xstorm Radek:	Andrew SL was based on broken content
[11:55]	Andrew Linden:	but I won't be talking about them here -- you'll have to wait for the announcements
[11:55]	Vickie Greenwood:	and There are multiple suggestions on how to implement improvements to sculpts without breaking content ;)
[11:55]	office hours	is almost over
[11:55]	EpicGordon Broome:	Will LoD affect their bounding boxes as w... no, that can't work.
[11:55]	EpicGordon Broome:	Okay.
[11:55]	Vickie Greenwood:	But.. this isnt mesh OH ;)
[11:55]	EpicGordon Broome:	I'll be quiet now. <:
[11:55]	Stickman Ingmann:	Speaking of announcements, Andrew. The blog said public meshes happens "end of second quarter." Is that the end of June, or does LL measure quarters differently?
[11:55]	Andrew Linden:	I think end of June was the plan for mesh.
[11:55]	Arawn Spitteler:	Anyone know the hour for SL2?
[11:55]	xstorm Radek:	yes i know what type of mess is going to happen with mesh and SL its a pig in a poke
[11:55]	Andrew Linden:	My guess is that the delivery date will slip.
[11:56]	Skills Hak:	can you talk about some of your anti-grief and permissions work as of late?
[11:56]	Stickman Ingmann:	Delivery dates always slip. Knowing the initially planned date is useful, though.
[11:56]	Andrew Linden:	No Skills, that anti-grief stuff is top-secret -- internal stuff, not fixing public bugs.
[11:56]	Skills Hak:	fair enough :)
[11:57]	xstorm Radek:	just say i do not know any thing about any thing
[11:57]	Liisa Runo:	i rather get leter release date than final release that still has bugs from Alpha, like v2
[11:57]	Liisa Runo:	later*
[11:57]	Andrew Linden:	There is a private beta of mesh going on now.
[11:58]	Andrew Linden:	I'm guessing it will go to public beta... probably a month or two before it is actually deployed to the whole world.
[11:58]	Vickie Greenwood:	which noone is allowed to talk about
[11:58]	Andrew Linden:	However, maybe there won't be a public beta -- don't know for sure.
[11:58]	xstorm Radek:	yes Q is doing a mesh beta under the NDA but the data will leak out
[11:58]	Andrew Linden:	Yeah sorry, let's not talk about that.
[11:58]	xstorm Radek:	:-)
[11:58]	Skills Hak:	" but the data will leak out" <- wat
[11:59]	Vickie Greenwood:	its already leaked.. like a waterfall.. ;)
[11:59]	xstorm Radek:	go to youtube lol
[11:59]	Stickman Ingmann:	Andrew, if they announce the mesh beta on the blog and don't push it out as hard as they pushed out viewer 2, I don't think that's very fair. :p
[11:59]	Skills Hak:	oh that's common knowledge
[11:59]	Skills Hak:	runitai himself posted a few teasers
[11:59]	Liisa Runo:	the normal procedure: when all bugs found in Alpha been fixed, it is time for beta, and when beta all beta bugs been fixed it is time to go final, we dont want to see any more alpha bugs in final release thanks
[12:00]	Andrew Linden:	I don't see many good reasons for keeping mesh a tight closed beta
[12:00]	Thank you	for coming to Linden office hours
[12:00]	Andrew Linden:	one reason for keeping the beta under NDA and small would be to reduce the feedback flood, and to avoid making false promises
[12:00]	Vickie Greenwood:	unless its a complete desaster and you dont want that info to leak out ;)
[12:00]	xstorm Radek:	Andrew you need to go
[12:00]	Stickman Ingmann:	Yes Andrew, you're not welcome here anymore. Wait what?
[12:00]	Andrew Linden:	right, thanks for the reminder
[12:00]	Rex Cronon:	r u the only linden that thinks that way, andrew:)
[12:00]	xstorm Radek:	;-)
[12:00]	Andrew Linden:	I mentioned twice already, but will repeat...
[12:00]	Vickie Greenwood:	Thanks for taking the time :)
[12:00]	Arawn Spitteler:	Fifteen minutes ago, but they can come here, if they like
[12:01]	Stickman Ingmann:	Thanks for the office hours, Andrew. :)
[12:01]	Andrew Linden:	this Tuesday office hour schedule needs to be adjusted going forward
[12:01]	Andrew Linden:	I'
[12:01]	Skills Hak:	seeya
[12:01]	Liisa Runo:	i was late, lets continue another 20min
[12:01]	Andrew Linden:	I've got an 11:45 meeting I'll have to be attending.
[12:01]	Ardy Lay:	Thanks Andrew.
[12:01]	xstorm Radek:	lol
[12:01]	Andrew Linden:	Rather than reschedule this meeting to a new hour we'll just cut it short at 11:45
[12:01]	Andrew Linden:	and see how that goes.
[12:01]	Vickie Greenwood:	we can discuss mesh after between oruselves *laughs*
[12:02]	xstorm Radek:	no
[12:02]	Andrew Linden:	See you all later. Thanks for coming.

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