User:Andrew Linden/Office Hours/2010 07 20

Transcript

[11:01]	Simon Linden:	hello
[11:02]	Rex Cronon:	hi simon
[11:02]	Kitto Flora:	Humm yeah - network manager failing
[11:02]	Moon Metty:	ah, there you are
[11:02]	Youri Ashton:	any news on http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-6008?page=com.atlassian.jira.plugin.system.issuetabpanels:all-tabpanel
[11:02]	Youri Ashton:	?
[11:02]	Login DNS	problems - ziggo and other european ISPs
[11:02]	Youri Ashton:	today it went worse for a moment
[11:02]	Simon Linden:	no, I haven't heard of that one before
[11:02]	Youri Ashton:	couldnt even connect to the internet at all
[11:03]	Youri Ashton:	its a very bad one that kicks off a lot of european users
[11:03]	Youri Ashton:	and since europe is about half of the SL residents....
[11:03]	Youri Ashton:	think you know what i mean then
[11:03]	Youri Ashton:	hey arawn
[11:03]	Arawn Spitteler:	/me wonders if he got his own chair
[11:04]	Simon Linden:	sounds like something outside of our system ... I'm not really familar how DNS works behind the scenes for our system
[11:04]	Simon Linden:	Anyway, announcements...
[11:04]	Youri Ashton:	it is indeed the guess of many residents
[11:04]	Simon Linden:	Server 1.40.4 was put on a pilot roll today
[11:04]	Latif Khalifa:	I think its the Global Crossing backbone provider
[11:04]	Youri Ashton:	something between SL and the providers in
[11:04]	Simon Linden:	We're going to fix at least one problem we've seen already, and likely to re-roll it tomorrow morning
[11:04]	Bronson Blackadder:	awesomeness for 1.40.4
[11:04]	Youri Ashton:	Soft and Alexa told me that they were working on it yesterday, but so far no news as was promised
[11:04]	Moon Metty:	oh
[11:05]	Simon Linden:	We're watching the crash rate closely and may or may not roll it back today
[11:05]	Latif Khalifa:	which last problem?
[11:05]	Simon Linden:	it's a crash that occurs someone logs out
[11:06]	Youri Ashton:	specifics?
[11:06]	Simon Linden:	I'm not sure how to make it happen, but there must be some timing window for it to occur
[11:06]	Youri Ashton:	perhaps the one that seems to crash the viewer on logout/quitting the viewer?
[11:06]	Simon Linden:	we already have a fix for that one, but are looking for any other new problems
[11:06]	Youri Ashton:	oh okay, great
[11:07]	Rex Cronon:	i noticed today that there r different sim versions running
[11:07]	Kitto Flora:	Thams got 1.40.6, and now the Thams/Heaton comms seems to havea problem.
[11:07]	Simon Linden:	We did a 'pilot roll' today, Rex. It updates about 20% of the grid
[11:07]	Kitto Flora:	Heaton is a high-load rregion
[11:07]	Bronson Blackadder:	I can think of no better time to crash then when logging out
[11:07]	Sindra Aquila:	to h7?
[11:07]	Simon Linden:	yes, 1.40.x has havok 7
[11:08]	Sindra Aquila:	the pilot soms i mean, are they now on h7?
[11:08]	Ardy Lay:	Simon, uhm, wow. I was gonna mention an SVC bug I reported last night but somebody moved it to SEC.
[11:08]	Sindra Aquila:	what is differen t on the pilot sims?
[11:09]	Youri Ashton:	what bug ardy?
[11:09]	Simon Linden:	The pilot regions get the latest simulator version. They are the first ones to get the update, and we then watch their crash rate or reports of problems to see if it seems safe to update the rest of the grid
[11:10]	Ardy Lay:	Youri, are you going to look it up in pJIRA and comment on it? ;-)
[11:10]	Morgaine Dinova:	Simon: good approach
[11:10]	Youri Ashton:	if i have a possible answer... then yes :)
[11:11]	Simon Linden:	So we rolled out a new version (the latest 1.40) this morning, and have at least one fix needed
[11:12]	Ardy Lay:	Youri, well, it's in SEC so you can't look it up, but if you could you would say "Yes, I know about that, It's expected behavior."
[11:12]	Latif Khalifa:	so 1.40.5 coming tomorrow xD
[11:12]	Youri Ashton:	lol
[11:12]	Arawn Spitteler:	Expected Behaviour = The World is FUBAR
[11:13]	Simon Linden:	In the longer term, to avoid this kind of churn, we're discussing a system where region owners would have a choice about which simulator version to run
[11:13]	Youri Ashton:	im not going to say i know something if i dont have the info on it ardy, think it wont be a smart move :)
[11:13]	Simon Linden:	We'd likely have a 'stable' version, plus a 'release candidate'
[11:13]	Sindra Aquila:	hoe can we now see what version a sim is on?
[11:13]	Arawn Spitteler:	Release Candidates A and B ?
[11:13]	Simon Linden:	I'd like to see us moving to this, and update the 'release candidate' often to get bug fixes out faster
[11:13]	Latif Khalifa:	Kelly mentioned that the goal was to do much more frequent releases
[11:14]	Moon Metty:	SVC-5975
[11:14]	Release candidate	server-versions on agni
[11:14]	Jonathan Yap:	Sindra, look under Help/About
[11:14]	Rex Cronon:	go to helpabout second life
[11:14]	Rex Cronon:	to see sim version
[11:14]	Arawn Spitteler:	When we change region servers, the notices should tell us how.
[11:14]	Simon Linden:	Arawn - I'm not sure we'd want to confuse it with too many choices, but we could have multiple release candidates to let people play with new features such as ray casting
[11:14]	Rex Cronon:	u will omethig likethis: You are at 262096.0, 258604.4, 33.0 in Denby located at sim9728.agni.lindenlab.com (216.82.45.62:13003) Second Life Server 1.38.6.204939
[11:15]	Simon Linden:	And we definitely want to more to more frequent releases
[11:15]	Rex Cronon:	will see somethng*
[11:15]	Simon Linden:	I fixed our top simulator crash bug two weeks ago, for example, but it won't be out until 1.42
[11:15]	Arawn Spitteler:	Different Estates may want different optimizations, and Het Grid should be used in that directio
[11:16]	Youri Ashton:	more frequent most likely leaves you either with too many bugs or too little to actually call it a update
[11:16]	Simon Linden:	we just have to be really careful that you can't cause problems taking objects between new and old server versions ... that may limit what we can do with scripts, for example
[11:16]	Youri Ashton:	rather be a good update then a hasty one
[11:17]	Sindra Aquila:	can a viewer be made for sim ownders to see the amopunt of scripts on persons?
[11:17]	Ardy Lay:	Sometimes one good fix is worth rolling the whole grid for.
[11:18]	Simon Linden:	Sindra - we do need to update our tools so people can see the cost of scripts, shapes they build, etc
[11:18]	Ardy Lay:	Ah, I do still have an issues reported against the server that I can mantion. http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-5598
[11:18]	Script Info	reporting on discontiguous parcels is not working as expected.
[11:18]	Sindra Aquila:	will that be in new viewers relases?
[11:19]	Simon Linden:	The 'top scripts' display will show AVs, but you need the right permissions to see it
[11:19]	Ardy Lay:	I am told that might actually be a viewer problem.
[11:19]	Sindra Aquila:	yes, but only see script times
[11:19]	Simon Linden:	I doubt there's much in the next viewer ... they're still focused on 2.1 which is mostly bug and performance fixes
[11:19]	Simon Linden:	Do you want script count?
[11:20]	Sindra Aquila:	yes
[11:20]	Sindra Aquila:	as good as can
[11:20]	Sindra Aquila:	for owners anyway
[11:20]	Kitto Flora:	Whats so important about the number of scripts?
[11:20]	Sindra Aquila:	lag
[11:20]	Simon Linden:	yeah, that would be useful, along with memory usage
[11:20]	Rex Cronon:	what if u have sripts hat turn on/off as needed:)
[11:20]	Sindra Aquila:	yes
[11:20]	Rex Cronon:	scripts that *
[11:20]	Kitto Flora:	Its the script's cpu time that causes lag, not the number of scripts
[11:21]	Simon Linden:	more scripts means more memory usage, which translates to slower region crossings and more lag when entering a region
[11:21]	Kitto Flora:	Yes it does that. Secondary effects
[11:21]	Sindra Aquila:	some ppl carry tons of redundant script, resizers in all kinds of stuff included all links, it is very laggy problem
[11:22]	Simon Linden:	There is also overhead in switching between scripts ... I did some testing once on a regoin that had 4000+ scripts, and half the time in scripts was spent switching between them and not running the code
[11:22]	Moon Metty:	hehe
[11:22]	Simon Linden:	That was one of the motivations behind the new LSL function to set link object parameters ... avoid lots of little scripts in every prim
[11:23]	Morgaine Dinova:	Why do more scripts in the region create lag on region crossing? Scripts on your attachments I understand as lagging your region crossing, but not scripts on the region.
[11:23]	Jonathan Yap:	re: script info -- you might want to vote /comment on this http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-5467
[11:23]	Display a	breakdown of script and URL usage per object
[11:23]	Simon Linden:	right, scripts that stay in the region aren't much of an issue
[11:23]	Latif Khalifa:	I made an interestig observation. I stumbed upon a sim with 18000 scripts in it. Sure each script was running slower but overall sim performance was ok. It was not much visited sim. On the other hand, a very popular sim with say 3000-5000 scripts will suffer from frezzes which points to a resource leak with loading/unloading scripts/avatars
[11:24]	Simon Linden:	there's huge variety on what the scripts do, so you can have lots that aren't active and it will run pretty well
[11:24]	Simon Linden:	they will take up memory and have overhead to switch between scripts, but if they aren't rezzing objects or running much code, they won't slow it down much
[11:25]	Sindra Aquila:	i observed that ppl with lots of resizer scripts on them make lag when closing in on them
[11:25]	Latif Khalifa:	yeah i have about 1000 scripts that do nothing except wait for money() event xD
[11:25]	Simon Linden:	yeah, re-sizing and re-positioning prims tends to be expensive
[11:25]	Morgaine Dinova:	There's no way to unload a script other than by exiting region / derezzing, which is a pity for one-shot scripts.
[11:25]	Moon Metty:	lol Latif
[11:26]	Simon Linden:	With in-world objects, it means the simulator has to re-build the shape in the physics engine, plus send updates to everyone watching
[11:26]	Rex Cronon:	u can delete it :)
[11:26]	Simon Linden:	So if you do 100 little modifcations (each prim doing something) that can add up, rather than one main script doing it (with the new LSL functions)
[11:27]	Kitto Flora:	'puppeteer' scripts - know to be very high load.
[11:27]	Sindra Aquila:	no one will delte it, most are not even aware of the damage resizers do, there should be script limit
[11:27]	Rex Cronon:	one scrip doing everythin tendsto be lower:
[11:27]	Rex Cronon:	slower:(*
[11:28]	Latif Khalifa:	the next improvement would be to enable some sort of batch llSetPrimitiveParamsFast
[11:28]	Latif Khalifa:	doing it one at the time is kind of slow
[11:28]	Rex Cronon:	sadle there is NO llGetPrimitiveParametersFAST :(
[11:28]	Latif Khalifa:	+ it's more difficult on the sim to execute each separate change
[11:29]	Rex Cronon:	sadly:(
[11:29]	Sindra Aquila:	are all plans for personal script and prim limits trashed?
[11:30]	office hours	is half over
[11:30]	Simon Linden:	no, we still want to sort out script limits
[11:31]	Simon Linden:	It's likely to be slower than we want, however, given the re-organization and that we're trying to focus on the basics
[11:31]	Rex Cronon:	so, why isn't there llgetprimparamsFAST?
[11:31]	Sindra Aquila:	it is the only way to force, haor and stuff sellers to reduce their scripts in all links
[11:31]	Simon Linden:	Kelly is probably the best Linden to ask about that one
[11:31]	Simon Linden:	I don't know the answer
[11:32]	Rex Cronon:	ok. np
[11:32]	Kitto Flora:	Script limits didint get much mention on Kelly/Monday
[11:32]	lufpleh Obstreperous:	would have thought sim freezeing was a basic performance issue
[11:32]	Arawn Spitteler:	It would make sense, if scripts were a group prerogative, but the default animations would have to be upgraded.
[11:32]	Moon Metty:	what could be done to replace the existing products that use loads of scripts, like resizers?
[11:33]	Sindra Aquila:	script limits
[11:33]	Moon Metty:	yes
[11:33]	Sindra Aquila:	it might forcve them out
[11:33]	Sindra Aquila:	it is a pest, it causes lots lag
[11:34]	Simon Linden:	we currently have some code in the simulators that tracks script memory usage on a per-AV and parcel basis
[11:34]	Simon Linden:	There are no limits enforced, however
[11:35]	Simon Linden:	Those limits are likely to be selectable by the land owner, since I'm sure there is no one setting that will make everyone happy
[11:35]	Moon Metty:	well, maybe it's not only about enforcing, but also about awareness
[11:35]	Moon Metty:	noone WANTS to lag down a sim
[11:35]	Sindra Aquila:	that would be terrific, sim owners setting the script limits
[11:35]	Moon Metty:	unless you're a griefer hehe
[11:35]	Simon Linden:	So someone running a combat sim might have one value to keep their region faster, while another type of region might allow more if they have fewer AVs or performance problems
[11:35]	Rex Cronon:	i was going to add that, moon. lol
[11:36]	Moon Metty:	:p
[11:36]	Sindra Aquila:	yesssss
[11:36]	Simon Linden:	and of course, we have to try and make it griefer-proof :)
[11:36]	Ardy Lay:	HXO deliberate creates prims with thousands of scripts in them to kill simulator performance.
[11:36]	Sindra Aquila:	some other viewers do even worse things like neillife
[11:36]	Ardy Lay:	And there is a common griefer object getting passed around that has 200 scripts in it called "Crowd Control".
[11:37]	Simon Linden:	fwiw I have a regular 11:45 meeting on Tuesdays, so we end OH early
[11:37]	Kitto Flora:	/me gets ongoing messages about communications failure in mainland
[11:37]	Rex Cronon:	maybe there should be a rule like: no prim(or linked set) can have more than 256 running scripts:)
[11:37]	Sindra Aquila:	is there a way to make a full proof detection system for sim owners to see who uses what viewer?
[11:37]	Latif Khalifa:	Simon, are you going to take a vacation :)
[11:37]	Latif Khalifa:	like that slacker andrew :P
[11:37]	Arawn Spitteler:	/me mentions svc-22 to keep his hand in, with the sheep: Someone was squawking, about the lag on SVC-93
[11:37]	Vehicles crossing	region borders aren't always treated as vehicles and can get incorrectly returned if the destination parcel is no-entry or parcel-full
[11:37]	ROTATION and	llSetRot incorrectly implemented for child prims
[11:37]	Simon Linden:	Someday :)
[11:37]	Latif Khalifa:	hehe
[11:38]	Techwolf Lupindo:	estate owers need to be able to set per avatar limits in some fansion. So if they ahve a large event, like music, they can set it all the way to zero if need be. While comabat sim can set it much higher, but have an avatar limit to keep things running smoothly.
[11:38]	Morgaine Dinova:	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-19009
[11:38]	Add viewer	channel identification to visible tags
[11:38]	Latif Khalifa:	it would be helpful if "no script" meant.. well no script xD
[11:38]	Arawn Spitteler:	Scripts should be suppressable, and I recall it is, but it means your guests will walk like boobs
[11:38]	Sindra Aquila:	combat sims need set script limits per person preferable prim limits too AND see whar viewers are used
[11:39]	Kitto Flora:	-93 got a mention on Monday
[11:39]	Morgaine Dinova:	Sims should simply send out the --channel data to people in the region. It just needs one extra packet defined.
[11:39]	Sindra Aquila:	especiallu what viewers, also for another purpose
[11:39]	Techwolf Lupindo:	no-script can help, but avatar can still overload the sim jsut by chewup memory.
[11:39]	Arawn Spitteler:	Waiting on one of the recently fired devs?
[11:40]	Sindra Aquila:	seeing what viewers are uses is extremely important for several reason
[11:40]	Simon Linden:	yeah, that's just made everything more complicated
[11:40]	Sirius Selona:	The tool to disable scripts in Region/Estate/Get Top Scripts does not work. It would be helpful if that tool did work.
[11:40]	Latif Khalifa:	TEch, not really, it imho it should be on avatar rez: can this avatar run scripts, if no, don't load the scripts into sim at all
[11:40]	reddot99 Republic:	it does work at times sirius
[11:41]	Moon Metty:	that makes sense Latif
[11:41]	Simon Linden:	Really? I remember "top scripts" was broken but thought it was fixed
[11:41]	Techwolf Lupindo:	When limits go in, use the existing error mechiism allready in place. If I tp into a sim wiht a low limit, tp will fail saying why, then I can reduce the number of sciprts/attments/etc. and try to tp into that sim again. If I tried to wear something that exceeds the limit, attment just just fail like "object not in db" type of dea.
[11:41]	Sirius Selona:	I've tried to use it many times on my two homestead sims and it never seems to work.
[11:41]	xstorm Radek:	needs to work every time
[11:41]	Sirius Selona:	yes, it does, thank you xstorm
[11:41]	Sindra Aquila:	any way to make the viwers also see what viewers are used?
[11:41]	Moon Metty:	wasn't there a problem that stopped scripts couldn't be started again?
[11:41]	Techwolf Lupindo:	Never ever stop running script or crash a script due to limits, that will perm break stuff.
[11:41]	Simon Linden:	Hopefully we can make it check before you try to TP. Recovering from failed TPs is not pretty
[11:41]	reddot99 Republic:	yeah, thats true tech
[11:41]	Morgaine Dinova:	Sindra -- http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-19009
[11:41]	Add viewer	channel identification to visible tags
[11:42]	Morgaine Dinova:	Just needs sims to send out the --channel data to people in the region.
[11:42]	Kitto Flora:	whats this 'viewer channel'?? What TV station?
[11:42]	Techwolf Lupindo:	I get fail tp all the time, no biggies. I usally try a minute later to tp to a different sim. I don't get loggged out for failed tp.
[11:42]	Sindra Aquila:	well it would help enormously if sim owners can identify in SURE way the viewers used
[11:42]	Morgaine Dinova:	Kitto: every viewer has a channel name
[11:42]	Latif Khalifa:	We have to let Simon go to his 11:45 :)
[11:43]	Arawn Spitteler:	Still two minutes
[11:43]	xstorm Radek:	>:-) its top secret Kitto ;-)
[11:43]	reddot99 Republic:	you can get logged out for fail tp when you lose connection during teleport, even for a moment
[11:43]	Qie Niangao:	There's no way to ID viewers "for sure"... most copybots now self-identify as "emerald" for example.
[11:43]	Sirius Selona:	Simon, thank you very much for your time. :)
[11:43]	reddot99 Republic:	qie. not true
[11:43]	Techwolf Lupindo:	Setting the limit to a gloable setting to workaround failed tp not being pretty will cause more prolems then it fixes.
[11:43]	Sindra Aquila:	yes, that is why i asked
[11:43]	Latif Khalifa:	Thanks for your time Simon, have a nice one :)
[11:43]	Rex Cronon:	is just a string that the viewer sends to identify what viewer and what version is that u r using
[11:44]	reddot99 Republic:	you can see the compiler data with parcel media
[11:44]	Simon Linden:	right, I have to run
[11:44]	Morgaine Dinova:	Kitto: the channel name gets uploaded to the servers, but it stays there. If the sim sent it back down to clients in the region, we would have useful info without that crappy texture hack that's currently used.
[11:44]	Moon Metty:	yep, thanks Simon :)
[11:44]	reddot99 Republic:	as well as version numbers and stuff
[11:44]	Qie Niangao:	thanks Simon
[11:44]	Jonathan Yap:	Thank you Simon
[11:44]	Simon Linden:	Thanks everyone for coming today, and I hope to see you next time
[11:44]	Moon Metty:	:)
[11:44]	Morgaine Dinova:	Cya Simon, have fun :-)
[11:44]	xstorm Radek:	Simon will there be a limit on the 0Prim Temp rezzers ?
[11:44]	Simon Linden:	Hopefully we'll get 1.40 out there soon :)
[11:44]	Kitto Flora:	Must be Micro$oft terminology.
[11:44]	Sindra Aquila:	thanks alot for all info simon
[11:44]	Rex Cronon:	there is a "bug" in emarald that allows u to see who is using what viewer:)
[11:44]	Latif Khalifa:	:)
[11:44]	Rex Cronon:	in emerald*
[11:44]	Qie Niangao:	reddot, you're seeing what the viewer developer decided you should see.
[11:44]	Simon Linden:	bye :)

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