User:Andrew Linden/Office Hours/2010 07 27

Transcript

[10:59]	Stickman Ingmann:	Hi Simon!
[10:59]	Simon Linden:	Hello
[10:59]	Latif Khalifa:	hello
[11:00]	Lil Maximus:	well that was an interesting drive over liisa lol
[11:00]	Welcome to	Linden office hours
[11:00]	Simon Linden:	oooh, nice VW
[11:01]	Lil Maximus:	liisas lol i was on the roof on the way over
[11:01]	Lil Maximus:	lmao
[11:01]	Lil Maximus:	av roofrack
[11:01]	Moon Metty:	music O_O
[11:01]	Simon Linden:	no safari windows ?
[11:01]	Moon Metty:	hey Simon :)
[11:01]	Liisa Runo:	we drove the van here from LL sandbox on the other end of the continent
[11:01]	Opensource Obscure:	hello everybody
[11:01]	Lil Maximus:	long drive ㋡
[11:01]	Lil Maximus:	hehe was fun though
[11:01]	Rex Cronon:	hello everybody
[11:02]	Simon Linden:	ok, annoucements ...
[11:03]	Simon Linden:	1.40.4 is headed to roll out to the full grid tomorrow at 7am
[11:03]	Simon Linden:	There's a 1.42 version on Aditi already but it's not the full set of code we want yet
[11:03]	Rex Cronon:	busy day tomorrow:)
[11:03]	Simon Linden:	There are still some things to merge in
[11:04]	Simon Linden:	Which will probably wrap up today or tomorrow
[11:04]	Stickman Ingmann:	Do we have a list of changes for 1.42?
[11:04]	Simon Linden:	I don't have one, but I think it will come together after the code does
[11:04]	Stickman Ingmann:	Yeah, I'm not seeing anything on the wiki yet. That's the only place I know to look.
[11:05]	Liisa Runo:	http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Release_Notes/Second_Life_Beta_Server/1.40
[11:05]	Lil Maximus:	lol figures you'd have it
[11:05]	Simon Linden:	I have my fingers crossed on crash fixes ... we have fixes for about half of the crashes we see daily, so I hope it makes a dent in the crash rate
[11:05]	reddot99 Republic:	simon, am i the only one who noticed that havok 7 broke llmovetotarget?
[11:05]	Stickman Ingmann:	That's 1.40. I was wondering about 1.42. But thank you. :)
[11:05]	Lil Maximus:	oh?
[11:06]	Simon Linden:	reddot - I haven't heard of that before. Is there a jira?
[11:06]	Lil Maximus:	it did?
[11:06]	reddot99 Republic:	i dont know, but i know it's gotten slower
[11:06]	reddot99 Republic:	and less accurate
[11:06]	Lil Maximus:	I haven't noticed
[11:06]	Stickman Ingmann:	Heh. I'm seeing reports for havok 4.
[11:07]	reddot99 Republic:	i'd show you, but this is havok 4 here
[11:07]	Opensource Obscure:	I can't find recent llmovetotarget pjira reports
[11:08]	Simon Linden:	hmm, well, since we did change the physics engine, I'm not surprised there might be changes but since there aren't lots of complaints it's probably working similair to h4
[11:08]	Lil Maximus:	i did notice some chagnes in npvs since the update
[11:08]	Simon Linden:	That command sets up a process where the sim pushes the object towards the goal each frame
[11:08]	Lil Maximus:	but that's just the new physics i'd assume
[11:08]	Opensource Obscure:	reddot99, try asking Jack Abraham - he commented at SVC-5381 mentioning that function.
[11:08]	Create llCastRay	for raycasting operations
[11:09]	Simon Linden:	The sequence of how some things move and are updated changed with Havok 7, so that's why it might be taking longer
[11:09]	reddot99 Republic:	normally it acts like this bird, but in havok 7, lookat and moveto happen one after the other, not at the same time anymore
[11:09]	Simon Linden:	fwiw that's what the bug in 1.40 with libomv was about
[11:09]	Latif Khalifa:	oh
[11:09]	reddot99 Republic:	libomv?
[11:09]	Latif Khalifa:	is that fixed?
[11:10]	Simon Linden:	I forget the jira, but there's a login problem with some clients built with libomv ... they end up at 0,0 in the region
[11:10]	Latif Khalifa:	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-6027
[11:10]	4 breaks	libomv clients (and possibly gets corrupted in the process)
[11:10]	Latif Khalifa:	so is that bug fixed?
[11:11]	Simon Linden:	It's fixed for 1.42. If we have another update for 1.40 (which I hope we dont) I'll try to get it in there
[11:12]	Simon Linden:	That was interesting ... Havok 7 handles updates a little differently, saving them in a queue to execute them all at the same time (which ends up being faster)
[11:12]	Lil Maximus:	wha? lol all at once is faster?
[11:12]	Simon Linden:	There was a tiny window of time where an AgentUpdate message would come from the viewer (libomv) during login
[11:13]	Simon Linden:	When we get that message, we move your AV to the position the physics engine says your AV is at
[11:13]	Simon Linden:	Unfortunately, due to the update queue, it thinks the AV is at 0,0,0
[11:13]	Moon Metty:	yeah
[11:13]	Latif Khalifa:	i see
[11:13]	Simon Linden:	... because the first update hadn't been processed yet
[11:13]	reddot99 Republic:	isnt that also what allows somebody to offset their physbox?
[11:14]	Rex Cronon:	btw, how hard would it be to have llTeleportPrim(string SimName) or llTeleportPrim(vector gridCoordinates) ?
[11:14]	Liisa Runo:	not hard
[11:14]	Simon Linden:	So a little extra care about doing that on the server fixes it, or (as the regular viewer is likely doing) waiting a bit for login to complete before sending AgentUpdate
[11:14]	Lil Maximus:	oh great I can see people trying to tp their house lol
[11:14]	Kitto Flora:	With an Av sitting on it?
[11:15]	Qie Niangao:	/me makes note to turn off object entry first
[11:15]	Rex Cronon:	it shouldn't matter is ave sits on it or not
[11:15]	reddot99 Republic:	rex, for the love of god, no, that would make griefers able to reach islands by rezzing aprim on mainland
[11:16]	Simon Linden:	hmm, we don't TP objects now so that would be a medium-sized job. Since we can send them between regions it's not impossible, but would be new
[11:16]	reddot99 Republic:	can we get llGiveInventoryList to transmit across regions instead?
[11:16]	Simon Linden:	yeah, I can imagine a pandora's box of griefer problems with that function
[11:16]	Rex Cronon:	not really, reddot99. if u allow parcel owners to set true or valse a flag allowPrimTp :)
[11:16]	reddot99 Republic:	estate managers, not parcel,
[11:16]	Lil Maximus:	ah
[11:16]	Rex Cronon:	true or false*
[11:16]	Liisa Runo:	griefers never learn new tricks, they still play with self replicating phys cubes
[11:16]	reddot99 Republic:	default to false maybe
[11:16]	Lil Maximus:	couldn't be parcel?
[11:17]	Simon Linden:	How would you use it?
[11:17]	Rex Cronon:	and default to false
[11:17]	reddot99 Republic:	i can imagine somebody trying to move an entire sim build from one region to a nother
[11:17]	Latif Khalifa:	rex, adding extra params to parcels takes about 5 years :) look how long is taking for windilight estate settings which everybody agrees would make SL much more interesting place to roam around ;)
[11:17]	Lil Maximus:	oh geeze
[11:17]	Rex Cronon:	a first use would be to tp with avats sitting on them
[11:18]	Lil Maximus:	I can imagine that in the sandbox, entie sim builds tping in
[11:18]	Lil Maximus:	sigh
[11:18]	Ardy Lay:	Simon, can you tell me if there is any progress on DEV-51906?
[11:19]	Rex Cronon:	and allow parcel owners to specify max nr of prims that an object can have when trying to tp
[11:19]	Lil Maximus:	oh what of stalling vehciles by edit? thought that was going to be addressed in the update
[11:19]	reddot99 Republic:	meeting box needs to learn to identify dev numbers i think
[11:19]	Lil Maximus:	vehicles even
[11:19]	Simon Linden:	sorry, got pulled away, I'll check that...
[11:19]	Ludo Merit:	What is so useful about long distance prim tp?
[11:20]	reddot99 Republic:	oh god, what if those multipart ships try to enter a sim, and parts dont make it
[11:20]	Liisa Runo:	take over the grid, ofcourse
[11:20]	Simon Linden:	No progress on DEV-51906. That's about checking flags and permissions between regions
[11:20]	Lil Maximus:	lol oh no
[11:20]	Rex Cronon:	i want to send a prim to sim
[11:20]	Lil Maximus:	you know how big some of those are too red
[11:20]	Lil Maximus:	lol
[11:21]	Qie Niangao:	hmmm... maybe just physical vehicles only, could TP while being ridden, just as worn attachments come along with a TP
[11:21]	reddot99 Republic:	rex, you'd have no way to contact it after it left the region, since it's uuid would change
[11:21]	Simon Linden:	I've been in some discussions about it ... it's not really a basic bug fix, but something we need to do: the regions should exchange more info about their parcels so they can block movement earlier, before you leave the first region
[11:21]	Ludo Merit:	Do the legit uses outweight the problematic ones?
[11:21]	Rex Cronon:	there r other ways to contact it:)
[11:21]	Lil Maximus:	that's what i'm wondering Ludo
[11:21]	Nexii Malthus:	Key could be kept the same actually
[11:21]	Moon Metty:	i came across this jira VWR-20263
[11:21]
[11:22]	reddot99 Republic:	maybe with a dns style server and http responses
[11:22]	Ardy Lay:	Simon, it would stop the problem described in SEC-720 and SEC-431.
[11:22]	Moon Metty:	maybe it's silly, in part .. but maybe there's something in it
[11:22]	Kitto Flora:	TPing a physical object is a problem... intesections at arrival point lead to explosions
[11:22]	Lil Maximus:	/me eeps.
[11:22]	reddot99 Republic:	lol kitto
[11:22]	Rex Cronon:	kitto. is the same problem when u move prims in same sim:)
[11:23]	Moon Metty:	Get and Set use different coordinates, in some cases
[11:23]	Moon Metty:	but i'm sure you can't Get LINK_ALL_CHILDREN
[11:23]	Stickman Ingmann:	llGetLinkPrimtiveParams was designed to always use global coordinates, wasn't it?
[11:23]	reddot99 Republic:	and moon, yes that is an issue, but its also somewhat harder to quantify
[11:23]	Moon Metty:	mmmm
[11:23]	Kitto Flora:	REx = it would be if allowed. Thats why you can't llSetPos() on a physical
[11:24]	Moon Metty:	yes, according to the wiki, get is always region
[11:24]	Rex Cronon:	i move it, and then set it to physical. which is basically the same thing:0
[11:24]	Rex Cronon:	:)
[11:24]	Stickman Ingmann:	Explosions are too fun to disallow.
[11:24]	reddot99 Republic:	should be local, in theory, would make life easiser
[11:24]	Moon Metty:	before Andrew went on holiday, he asked us about svc-93
[11:24]	ROTATION and	llSetRot incorrectly implemented for child prims
[11:24]	Stickman Ingmann:	That point was argued, Red. Apparently we lost.
[11:24]	Moon Metty:	and if it should return local or regional
[11:25]	reddot99 Republic:	lol, well, theres ways around it still
[11:25]	Moon Metty:	so it's good to think about it
[11:25]	Simon Linden:	Good point Kitto ... I can imagine some interesting problems if you drop a new object into a region and it doesn't fit. We already have problems with rezzing and parts that are outside a parcel or region
[11:25]	Stickman Ingmann:	I love that bug, Moon.
[11:25]	Moon Metty:	:D we all do
[11:25]	Moon Metty:	especially Arawn
[11:25]	reddot99 Republic:	i wonder, would that actually break stuff when it was fixed?
[11:25]	Liisa Runo:	would
[11:26]	Rex Cronon:	how exactly do objects fit in a region?
[11:26]	Nexii Malthus:	Doesn't need to, could always switch constants, so only recompiled things need to be fixed
[11:26]	Simon Linden:	sorry, I have to be away for a minute...
[11:26]	Moon Metty:	what also has to be considered is floating point noise when converting from local to regional and back
[11:27]	Liisa Runo:	/me uses the minute pause to advertise here new jira: SVC-6038
[11:27]	Having no	AutoReturn should cost you.
[11:27]	Liisa Runo:	her*
[11:27]	reddot99 Republic:	no, liisa, please no,
[11:27]	Liisa Runo:	why not?
[11:27]	Nexii Malthus:	sounds expensive
[11:28]	Lil Maximus:	that'd go over well lol
[11:28]	Liisa Runo:	give me good reason to not have autoreturn?
[11:28]	Qie Niangao:	switching a huge build to a different group
[11:28]	Liisa Runo:	yes, and that is mentioned in the jira
[11:29]	Stickman Ingmann:	I'm against the concept of putting a price on certain parcel permissions.
[11:29]	Liisa Runo:	took me 2 hours to do it to one sim, i would gladly pay 120L for it
[11:29]	Qie Niangao:	two hours? I've been working on one for six months!
[11:29]	Ludo Merit:	It's a bleep inconvenience to have it, that's why
[11:29]	Stickman Ingmann:	If you want to limit it, I say find a different way.
[11:29]	Simon Linden:	ok, I"m back
[11:29]	Liisa Runo:	ok, how about you get perm banned for not cleaning your parcel every day, and your land dropped to governor, that better?
[11:29]	Rex Cronon:	wb
[11:30]	Moon Metty:	ok, i moved it to svc SVC-6039
[11:30]	reddot99 Republic:	allow multiple groups to have permsiion to rez on the same land instead
[11:30]
[11:30]	Kitto Flora:	I believe the main reason for no-autoreturn set on an estate is because that is the default when owner gets it, and new owners are to ignorant to fix it.
[11:30]	Stickman Ingmann:	Define "cleaning?" What if my parcel is a flytrap and it's designed to capture stray prims that float into it, and I consider myself an artist?
[11:30]	Rex Cronon:	that is a bit too extreme, liisa
[11:30]	Ludo Merit:	You're proposing solving a mainland problem with something that would affect private estates, who already handle it in covenants
[11:30]	reddot99 Republic:	lol, i think a flytrap would be awesome
[11:30]	office hours	is half over
[11:30]	Stickman Ingmann:	You want clean neighbors, establish a community with community standards.
[11:31]	Lil Maximus:	exactly
[11:31]	Lil Maximus:	speaking of cleaning up, red could you lose the bird please lol
[11:31]	Liisa Runo:	anyway, lets continue this discussion after the meeting
[11:31]	Stickman Ingmann:	*tweet tweet*
[11:31]	Simon Linden:	we need to fix the estate-return-objects functionality too
[11:31]	Lil Maximus:	lol thanks
[11:31]	Ludo Merit:	There's a problem with it?
[11:31]	reddot99 Republic:	also, simon, get top colliders is broken on havok 7 regions
[11:31]	Lil Maximus:	was driving me nuts
[11:32]	Stickman Ingmann:	Need to fix kicking/banning someone from a solitary island, too. It just shoves them into the corner.
[11:32]	Simon Linden:	yes, that's fixed for 1.42
[11:32]	Simon Linden:	(top colliders)
[11:32]	reddot99 Republic:	thank you,
[11:32]	Simon Linden:	The function to return objects over an entire estate is broken
[11:32]	reddot99 Republic:	simon, it was working for me actually
[11:32]	Stickman Ingmann:	I haven't used it -- didn't realize it was. Be useful to have it if I needed it.
[11:33]	Simon Linden:	There was an attempt to fix it for 1.42, but it didn't work, so I had to patch up the changes yesterday as we were puling the bits togetehr for 1.42
[11:33]	Ludo Merit:	Oh, I'd never dare return all the objects on an estate.
[11:33]	Lil Maximus:	shrug i'm no longer an estate manager so I wouldn't know
[11:33]	Simon Linden:	I wasn't aware of the bug until then
[11:33]	Ludo Merit:	My renters would kill me
[11:34]	Simon Linden:	It's kind of a scary function ... having one region contact all the other regions in an estate has a lot of steps that can fail
[11:34]	Nexii Malthus:	Ludo: You can return selected objects in the top lists, like say a top scripts object that lag at 10.0 ms, etc.
[11:34]	Kitto Flora:	All objects, or all objects owned by a specific Av?
[11:34]	Ludo Merit:	Yes, and I do, and that's not broken afaik
[11:34]	reddot99 Republic:	is it return everything, return by owner, or return via the top scripts window?
[11:34]	Nexii Malthus:	Returning selected objects by top scripts wasn't working for me
[11:34]	Simon Linden:	It's in the region/estate window, Debug tab
[11:35]	reddot99 Republic:	ok, but which of them?
[11:35]	Simon Linden:	Under Object Return ... checking the 'In every region of this estate' option
[11:35]	Nexii Malthus:	Mind you, it probably didn't have a prim, it was ghosted, only the physics hull and script running without a prim ~_~
[11:35]	Simon Linden:	You pick the resident and their objects are returned
[11:35]	reddot99 Republic:	ah, so its just the checkbox broken
[11:35]	Simon Linden:	Anyway, that's reportedly broken
[11:36]	Kitto Flora:	Nexii - that will fail... fix by restarting region.
[11:36]	Simon Linden:	A reminder that I have to go at 11:45 ... another meeting
[11:36]	Simon Linden:	can't be too late since I'll be running it :)
[11:36]	reddot99 Republic:	also SVC-868 would be nice, i designed a server to give out equipment in a folder only to discover that it wouldnt send outside region
[11:36]	llGiveInventoryList should	be able to work gridwide
[11:37]	Rex Cronon:	i wonder if is possibl for a prim to pay other prim?
[11:37]	Moon Metty:	what kind of meeting can possibly be more important than this one, Simon?
[11:37]	Simon Linden:	Sounds like we should look at the functions needed by vendor boxes and the like
[11:37]	Lil Maximus:	red: hippogroups? or regular groups posted to notices?
[11:37]	Moon Metty:	:)
[11:37]	Stickman Ingmann:	I had problems with that, Red. I just later redesigned my stuff to use a prim, so I don't have to do a list. But giving folders anywhere on the grid would be nice.
[11:37]	Simon Linden:	It's the 'what are you doing today' meeting with programmers :)
[11:37]	Moon Metty:	oh hehe
[11:37]	Qie Niangao:	actually, speaking of that: what about llRemoteLoadScriptPin() being able to work across sims? is that a griefing vector, or just difficult to implement?
[11:37]	reddot99 Republic:	can we come?
[11:38]	reddot99 Republic:	:p
[11:39]	Simon Linden:	I'm not sure Qie ... usually doing things over multiple regions adds a bunch of complexity when it has to figure out the list of regions, find them (locate the server it's on) and then send some data to each one
[11:39]	Liisa Runo:	and llGiveInventory to work grid wide between prims
[11:39]	Qie Niangao:	well, it has to find the prim on one sim somewhere, that might be tough without a hint
[11:39]	Nexii Malthus:	I found that llRemoteLoadScriptPin has some problems over long term
[11:39]	Simon Linden:	It's a job with a lot of parts and back-and-forth communication, so there are lots of steps that can fail
[11:39]	reddot99 Republic:	just with agents is nice enough,
[11:39]	Nexii Malthus:	Eventually my no-script doors had "Old Script"s in them
[11:39]	Rex Cronon:	if a prim could tp to a different sim then it could give its inventory to other prim:)
[11:40]	reddot99 Republic:	yeah, i've seen the old script bug before
[11:40]	Moon Metty:	me too
[11:40]	reddot99 Republic:	rex, i'd rather not teleport an entire server
[11:40]	Rex Cronon:	u tp one prim
[11:41]	reddot99 Republic:	why would i let the server delink part of it and risk it getting caught in a no script or autoreturned
[11:41]	Nexii Malthus:	Read what rex said: "give its inventory to other prim:)"
[11:42]	Nexii Malthus:	Rez a prim, give it product, teleport it to user, give list, ???, profit
[11:42]	reddot99 Republic:	thinking of something sorta like updaters. to update objects in a prim,
[11:42]	Rex Cronon:	i guess u also need llCanTp2(string simName) return boolean
[11:42]	Kitto Flora:	/me sees a fleet of automated Icecream trucks
[11:43]	Rex Cronon:	yes kitto:)
[11:43]	reddot99 Republic:	lol kitto, need raycasting first
[11:43]	Ludo Merit:	Ihave some builds that say they are full perm but when I give them to someone they aren't. And in the receiver's inventory and in world they still say they are full perm. What's going on?
[11:43]	reddot99 Republic:	so they cant learn to dive
[11:43]	Simon Linden:	That function couldn't be trusted all the time if you're hitting prim or AV limits on the parcel/region
[11:43]	reddot99 Republic:	drive
[11:43]	Kitto Flora:	I have vehicles that will drive miles of some LL roads, all on their own.
[11:44]	Kitto Flora:	But theres's rarely Avs on/near the roads.
[11:44]	Simon Linden:	Ludo - be sure to check all the prims, and all the next owner settings. I'm guessing something wasn't fully open
[11:44]	Simon Linden:	I have to run to my next meeting ... thanks everyone for coming
[11:44]	Rex Cronon:	the llCanTp2 function should also take into account the nr of prim in th parcel/sim:)
[11:44]	Gooden Uggla:	could have been the bulk permissions thing
[11:44]	Moon Metty:	thank you too Simon
[11:44]	Qie Niangao:	thanks, Simon
[11:44]	Moon Metty:	see you soon :)
[11:44]	Rex Cronon:	tc simon
[11:44]	Ludo Merit:	Did that, didn't help
[11:44]	reddot99 Republic:	simon, can we please come? :p
[11:44]	Simon Linden:	See you next time
[11:44]	Nexii Malthus:	Thanks simon, cya
[11:44]	Gooden Uggla:	have a good one simon
[11:44]	Ludo Merit:	Thanks Simon
[11:45]	Simon Linden:	bye

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