User:Andrew Linden/Office Hours/2010 08 27

Transcript

[16:00]	Falcon Linden:	all right
[16:00]	Moon Metty:	OS crashed ...
[16:01]	Falcon Linden:	As I mentioned before, I'm filling in for Andrew and Simon today.
[16:01]	Rex Cronon:	hi dogwomble, moon, geo, elisha, moundsa...
[16:01]	Morgaine Dinova:	Hey Rex
[16:01]	Falcon Linden:	There are a couple things I'll tell you about first, and then I guess we can open things up to general discussion
[16:01]	Elisha Richez:	heya rexxerz
[16:01]	Rex Cronon:	hi morgaine:)
[16:01]	Moon Metty:	cool
[16:01]	Rex Cronon:	hi elisha
[16:01]	Moundsa Mayo:	(Falcon drew the short straw)
[16:01]	Rex Cronon:	how r u doing falcon?
[16:01]	Falcon Linden:	Good, Rex, thanks
[16:01]	Moon Metty:	hi Psi
[16:02]	Psi Merlin:	Hello Falcon, Hi everyone
[16:02]	Rex Cronon:	working on that lazer:)
[16:02]	Rex Cronon:	hi psi
[16:02]	Falcon Linden:	1) Andrew and I have just finished some work that we expect to significantly improve terrain performance. In particular, if an object is entirely above the highest point on the terrain, the physics engine will no longer check for terrain collisions
[16:02]	Falcon Linden:	It used to always check up to 4096m
[16:02]	Falcon Linden:	Hopefully this will reduce the need to use, e.g., volume detect airships
[16:02]	Falcon Linden:	or to put your race tracks in the sky.
[16:02]	Squirrel Wood:	Woo ^
[16:03]	Morgaine Dinova:	That's good, Falcon
[16:03]	Squirrel Wood:	exactly what I suggested like, last week ^^
[16:03]	Falcon Linden:	Squirrel: And what I suggested about a week after I joined LL. So? :)
[16:03]	Squirrel Wood:	hehe
[16:03]	Morgaine Dinova:	/me gives Squirrel a cookie, er, nut
[16:03]	Cummere Mayo:	sorry im late hope i didnt land on anyone
[16:04]	Moon Metty:	hi cummere :)
[16:04]	Liisa Runo:	will it someday be done so that even if the vehicle is below the highest point and still not touching the terrain. it still dont go to collision check
[16:04]	Falcon Linden:	Liisa: How would you know it wasn't touching the terrain?
[16:04]	Morgaine Dinova:	Falcon: you get paid for it, Squirrel doesn't. So Squirrel gets the cookie :-)
[16:04]	Falcon Linden:	Ah, I see :P
[16:04]	Squirrel Wood:	^^
[16:04]	Moon Metty:	yes, we have to stick to the rules
[16:05]	Moundsa Mayo:	If Squirrel smart, she give Falcon her cookie.
[16:05]	Falcon Linden:	2) We've been working on a system to put more control into the hands of estate owners. This hasn't really gone through any official approval process, so it may never ship, but it would allow estate owners to have earlier access to beta features
[16:05]	Falcon Linden:	by way of a command console
[16:05]	Liisa Runo:	idk how it can be done. But many vechicles that need to land on ground still rather use volumedetect to prevent the collision lag to the sim.
[16:05]	Yuu Nakamichi:	how high was it checking so far, 800m or 4096?
[16:05]	Cummere Mayo:	never give a linden a cookie. they might freind you and expect more
[16:05]	Rex Cronon:	squirrels to give away their cookie. hard to see that:)
[16:06]	Falcon Linden:	Yuu: used to be 4096, iirc
[16:06]	Moundsa Mayo:	Cookie supply inexhaustible.
[16:06]	Moon Metty:	SVC-5975
[16:06]	Release candidate	server-versions on agni
[16:06]	Yuu Nakamichi:	hi psi :)
[16:06]	Falcon Linden:	not quite the same, Moon
[16:07]	Moon Metty:	but similar
[16:07]	Falcon Linden:	This would be for individual features inside a release
[16:07]	s Fortune	Cookie: Here's some wisdom for you:
[16:07]	s Fortune	Cookie: This cookie has become stale. Obtain a fresh one to receive a fortune!
[16:07]	Moundsa Mayo:	heh
[16:07]	Falcon Linden:	So, for example, as part of the alterations to terrain, it will be possible (assuming the console system is approved and released) for estate owners to select between a faster and rougher terrain representation and a slower but more accurate one
[16:07]	Moon Metty:	hmmm, i see
[16:07]	Falcon Linden:	Or to enable the fix for SVC-5880, but also to be able to disable it if it breaks other content
[16:07]	when crossing	prims
[16:07]	Liisa Runo:	anyway. This is good start. But dont fix the problem entirely. Maybe if we get function to make the object entirely phantom. even to ground.
[16:07]	Morgaine Dinova:	Falcon: by estate console, you you mean a panel with estate tools, or a commandline console?
[16:07]	Moon Metty:	extra options in one server version
[16:08]	Morgaine Dinova:	do* you
[16:08]	Falcon Linden:	Morgaine: A command line console inside the viewer
[16:08]	Morgaine Dinova:	Cool!
[16:08]	Cummere Mayo:	okay this might seem like a silly question but why is it always estate owners why not parcel owners? not all of us can afford entire sims
[16:08]	Morgaine Dinova:	Cummere++
[16:08]	Falcon Linden:	Cummere: Because most of the options we envision using it for can only be applied to entire simulators
[16:08]	Liisa Runo:	most != all
[16:09]	s Fortune	Cookie: Here's some wisdom for you:
[16:09]	s Fortune	Cookie: If all economists were laid end to end, they would not reach a conclusion. -- Anonymous
[16:09]	Falcon Linden:	but if we find something we'd like to allow at the parcel level, it's fully extensible and could easily add a parcel-level authentication level
[16:09]	Morgaine Dinova:	Falcon: bad reasoning. Plenty of parcel options could easily be imagined
[16:09]	Morgaine Dinova:	kk
[16:09]	DogWomble Dollinger:	falcon, is this likely to apply to private islands only, or will it become available for mainland as well?
[16:09]	Falcon Linden:	even now, anyone can /use/ the console. But if you're not an estate owner there's not much you can do with it
[16:09]	Squirrel Wood:	I'd love to be able to set gravity...
[16:09]	Falcon Linden:	DogWomble: since it hasn't been through the official release process yet, I don't know.
[16:10]	Cummere Mayo:	well what you just suggested would be lovely for my aprcel. I rent half a homestead. all i can afford, but that would allow us to alot of options...
[16:10]	Falcon Linden:	Squirrel: I thought about that. It's conceivable, but would be very tricky because the viewer makes assumptions about gravity, among other reasons
[16:10]	Falcon Linden:	Things like terrain type, though, can only exist at the level of a full simulator
[16:10]	Squirrel Wood:	Well, the viewer could query the gravity from the sim and then make its assumptions based on that ?
[16:11]	Falcon Linden:	Squirrel: Anything is possible. But at that point it's a project of its own and we're focused on more fundamental improvements right now
[16:11]	Morgaine Dinova:	Falcon: (i) what handles the commandline processing? (ii) if it's handled properly as a grammar, what's the language? (iii) if it's LL's own grammar, why? (iv) If it's a REPL for an existing language, COOL ... and which is it?
[16:11]	Moon Metty:	Falcon, weren't you the one working on client-side physics?
[16:11]	Falcon Linden:	Moon: hoping to start on that early next year, but no official word on timing
[16:11]	Falcon Linden:	Morgaine: Oy.
[16:11]	Morgaine Dinova:	Yeah?
[16:11]	Moon Metty:	it's an interesting discussion, let's talk about it some day
[16:12]	Falcon Linden:	Morgaine: The goal was to write a simple system in a very short period of time that would be easily extended and integrate into the simulator without new libraries
[16:12]	Cummere Mayo:	how about just more flexability at the parcel level? estate owners can divide up the ground textures for example so half a sim uses one texture set, another half another.... why cant those be made to parcel level?
[16:12]	Falcon Linden:	So it uses my own custom system based on boost spirit for the tricky parsing bits. And the grammar is about as complicated as "get foo" "set foo 12"
[16:13]	Morgaine Dinova:	Falcon: I can do it in 10 mins by binding in Lua. How long did it take you to write the parser? Even if it took you less than 10 mins, the result is far inferior to binding in Lua.
[16:13]	Elisha Richez:	Awwh, foo!
[16:13]	Falcon Linden:	Morgaine: You're right. I did it all wrong. Oh well, it's in there now!
[16:13]	Morgaine Dinova:	Figures
[16:14]	Falcon Linden:	Cummere: Like I said, anything can be done. This is just a first step. The point is that it will make it much easier to put out beta features that can be switched on/off at will by people with the appropriate ownership interest
[16:14]	Squirrel Wood:	I would love to see higher supported resolution for ground textures... I got some nice 1024x1024 grass that I can't use :(
[16:14]	Falcon Linden:	The better thing for ground, as I understand it, is something called detail textures. Talk to Runitai or Nyx about those.
[16:14]	Cummere Mayo:	well texture for parcel owners would be a great step. switchign media rights from group deeded to group SET land would be nice too
[16:15]	Falcon Linden:	There are an infinite number of great features we could add. The first one I plan to add that will really be useful is the SVC-5880 fix
[16:15]	Falcon Linden:	However, that depends on some additional improvements to the physics engine that we aren't ready to ship yet. Once we are, that should be available
[16:16]	Moon Metty:	:)
[16:16]	Falcon Linden:	What else...
[16:16]	Falcon Linden:	Right
[16:16]	Falcon Linden:	llCastRay
[16:16]	Morgaine Dinova:	This is exactly what Philip was highlighting at SLCC --- Linden teams doing things in secret, finally announcing them, and then ignoring the feedback because it's too late, it's in the code. Exactly as happened with V2's UI. The whole point of open development was to avoid these costly mistakes.
[16:16]	Cummere Mayo:	how hard would it be to extend media rights to group set land? no one at ll can tell me, though many seem to think its a great idea ...
[16:16]	Rex Cronon:	how is your lazer doing? i mean llcastray:)
[16:16]	Cummere Mayo:	and with linden homes its extremely frustrating...
[16:17]	Falcon Linden:	Morgaine: Trust me when I say that embedding lua would have been difficult in practice, even if the actual technical work would have been very easy. And we'd still have needed to do all the work I did in order to fully integrate it with the simulator's code
[16:17]	Falcon Linden:	I considered using a real grammar. The decision was made that we didn't want anything nearly that complicated. This is not a scripting language we're adding.
[16:17]	Falcon Linden:	We do not want people scripting with it.
[16:17]	Falcon Linden:	By we, of course, I mean "I"
[16:17]	Falcon Linden:	:)
[16:18]	Moon Metty:	lol
[16:18]	Falcon Linden:	Unfortunately, llCastRay is currently on hold.
[16:18]	Moon Metty:	awww
[16:18]	Liisa Runo:	why?
[16:18]	DogWomble Dollinger:	OT: squirrell, nice grass texture
[16:18]	Falcon Linden:	The code, as it stood last we talked, is merged into one of Andrew's branches, but it has been disabled and requires additional work to be release-ready.
[16:19]	Falcon Linden:	Currently we're all focused on the things Philip discussed at SLCC and can't devote the resources to features that only benefit a few users
[16:19]	Liisa Runo:	okay, but lot of work is already done. So finish it some day so the work is not done for nothing
[16:19]	Falcon Linden:	I'm still passionate about llCastRay, though, and hope to get it out to you as soon as I can. (Might even mean working on it some weekend :)
[16:19]	Techwolf Lupindo:	replacing the scripting mess with LUA would benifent everyone.
[16:19]	Techwolf Lupindo:	:-)
[16:19]	Morgaine Dinova:	Falcon: that's the basic tension between LL development and community development. Users want user-empowerment, you want users to do only what you allow. Inevitably you will lose. For a start, the TPVs will replace your non-scriptable console calls by scripting language bindings.
[16:20]	Moon Metty:	is there an aditi region with llCastRay deployed?
[16:20]	Falcon Linden:	Morgaine: Sure. And they're free to do that, but we don't promise that the variables and commands available in one version will be available in the next.
[16:20]	Cummere Mayo:	cast ray would be nice for more then just a few users. that would free up tons of stuff in allot of the heavy roleplay sims wouldnt it?
[16:20]	Falcon Linden:	It's for beta, minimally tested features
[16:20]	Falcon Linden:	Once we see alot of people using a feature in the console, we'll bring it out to someplace more easily accessed in the viewer
[16:20]	Falcon Linden:	or on the web or somewhere
[16:21]	Falcon Linden:	Cummere: It's all a matter of who you ask. But it certainly won't help as much as, say, improving overall load times or region crossing times.
[16:21]	Falcon Linden:	or implementing a way for estate owners to control avatar costs
[16:21]	Falcon Linden:	Moon: yeah, I think so.
[16:22]	Moon Metty:	ahhh, that's good
[16:22]	Cummere Mayo:	true.... but it might help reduce avatar costs too *shrugs* still would like someone at ll to give me an answer about what i keep asking *mutters*
[16:22]	Morgaine Dinova:	Falcon: have you looked at Dzonatas' SNOW-375 Jira? Your console calls would be so cleaner, and less work for you, if done that way. (No language binding in the viewer at all, just a minimal webserver and callbacks.)
[16:22]	Falcon Linden:	Oatmeal 9, 13, and 14 still support it
[16:22]	Side Scripting:	REST/HTTP based API -- "thinking outside the box
[16:22]	Moon Metty:	thank you
[16:23]	Falcon Linden:	Cummere: Sadly, I have no idea
[16:23]	Cummere Mayo:	also would like to know how hard it would be to set the verification controls from 50m to 5000m
[16:23]	Falcon Linden:	Morgaine: it does use an HTTP based API...sort of. Not really.
[16:23]	Falcon Linden:	You post a string command, the sim handles it, and sends back a reply
[16:24]	Falcon Linden:	Cummere: Again, that's way outside my field
[16:24]	Morgaine Dinova:	Falcon: righto. But Dzon put a little webserver in the viewer, and mapped some viewer operations to REST calls, so the viewer is the webserver, not the sim
[16:25]	Moon Metty:	move your camera a little, Flacon, you're twitching
[16:25]	Moon Metty:	:)
[16:25]	Falcon Linden:	Morgaine. Clever.
[16:25]	Falcon Linden:	We've been thinking more about how to improve rez times and region crossings
[16:25]	Morgaine Dinova:	Hey, nice change, whoever gave us a lawn here. Much friendlier :-)
[16:26]	DogWomble Dollinger:	yeah!! morgaine, now all we need is a game of lawn bowls
[16:26]	Morgaine Dinova:	haha
[16:26]	Moon Metty:	that involves the interest list?
[16:26]	Techwolf Lupindo:	Lawn darts.
[16:26]	Elisha Richez:	/me perks her ears....did someone say "bowls"?
[16:26]	Falcon Linden:	The interest list is involved in rez time, definitely
[16:27]	Cummere Mayo:	okay how about setting up a protocal to alow us to rez things either close to far or far to close, and allowing us to decide between rezzing avatars first or objects? might not speed up rezzing overall, but would maybe allow us to rez what we NEED faster
[16:27]	Falcon Linden:	the region crossing issue has more to do with serialization
[16:27]	Falcon Linden:	Cummere: we've definitely thought about making it work near to far. Another idea I had was to basically save out a miniature state file for the region every 5 minutes. When you teleport in, you get that state file.
[16:28]	Yuu Nakamichi:	Falcon, the fix for the corssings is supposed to happen in two stages?
[16:28]	Bronson Blackadder:	rezzing crap thats 95 meters away before you see crap at 12 really blows
[16:28]	Falcon Linden:	It's a bit stale, but it's likely similar, at least for objects that aren't moving
[16:28]	Cummere Mayo:	and the viewer oculd then jsut look for differances... clever
[16:28]	Falcon Linden:	Then you grab the next one, update it, and start getting incremental updates from then on
[16:29]	Morgaine Dinova:	Imprudence already has near rez prioritization.
[16:29]	Falcon Linden:	Yuu: I'm not sure. What do you mean?
[16:29]	Cummere Mayo:	I want to try imprudence soon, but *Srhugs* supposedly they are gonna start having a more regular test viewer soon, so im torn. :-/
[16:30]	Yuu Nakamichi:	Oskar mentioned something along those lines I believe - i.e. the fix involving mono 2.6 would be rolled out in two stages
[16:30]	Falcon Linden:	ah, that's just part of the region crossing problem
[16:30]	Falcon Linden:	I don't know much about the details of our mono rollout plan
[16:30]	Falcon Linden:	but it isn't /only/ scripts involved in region crossing cost
[16:30]	Falcon Linden:	Think about how many prims are in your hair.
[16:30]	Moundsa Mayo:	None.
[16:30]	Falcon Linden:	or that necklace
[16:31]	Moon Metty:	lol Mounds
[16:31]	Bronson Blackadder:	yes this is true, if you have an avater with no prims or huds or scripts, region crossing is almost instant
[16:31]	Cummere Mayo:	well it would be easier to do something about that if we had the ability to get rid of scripts in no mod objects
[16:31]	Rex Cronon:	this grass makes it seem like we r on a golf course:)
[16:32]	Cummere Mayo:	i mean once i resize somthing to fit, how often am i really likely to need to resize it again?
[16:32]	Moundsa Mayo:	Ut oh .... Falcon? You OK?
[16:32]	Falcon Linden:	Me? Yep
[16:33]	Elisha Richez:	narcoleptic episode lol
[16:33]	Moon Metty:	phew
[16:33]	Falcon Linden:	Sorry
[16:33]	Falcon Linden:	haha. Anyway
[16:33]	Moundsa Mayo:	Hmmmm Friday, afternoon, office party time? B^D
[16:33]	Moon Metty:	what would we have to tell andrew?
[16:33]	Falcon Linden:	The problem with removing scripts from no-mod objects, I suppose, is...well... a lot of things
[16:33]	Moon Metty:	sorry, Falcon didn't make it through the meeting
[16:34]	DogWomble Dollinger:	moon: i think the line is "we're sorry andrew, but i think we did something to falcon..."
[16:34]	Moon Metty:	:)
[16:34]	Moundsa Mayo:	We wore him down complaining!
[16:34]	Falcon Linden:	"We broke Falcon"
[16:34]	Falcon Linden:	naah
[16:34]	Moon Metty:	hahaha
[16:34]	Falcon Linden:	I'm more difficult to break.
[16:34]	DogWomble Dollinger:	*giggles*
[16:35]	Moon Metty:	operation successful, patient deceased
[16:35]	Cummere Mayo:	Sorry andrew, they had to cart falcon away midway through the meeting. Andrew: why? What happened? us: we sicked cummere on him...
[16:35]	Cummere Mayo:	andrew: oh... that explains it
[16:35]	Falcon Linden:	All right, so, what else?
[16:35]	DogWomble Dollinger:	/me prepares the white coat
[16:35]	Falcon Linden:	I'm hoping to upgrade Havok again in the next several months
[16:36]	Cummere Mayo:	to whcih version?
[16:36]	Falcon Linden:	2010.2 when it comes out
[16:36]	Falcon Linden:	it goes 7.0 (ours), 7.1, 2010.1, 2010.2
[16:36]	Techwolf Lupindo:	Will it get rid of the reduculus spacing between prims?
[16:37]	Falcon Linden:	Nope. But that will be fixed by alternate physics shapes, a feature I'm working on
[16:37]	Bronson Blackadder:	what linden do I talk to about abandoned land?... like say for example when someone abandones land it retians teh last owners settings (which can be disruptive) it would be great if when somone abandones land it reverts to a linden land default state
[16:37]	Moundsa Mayo:	Falcon, you once mentioned the possibility of non-hack phantom prims as part of physical linksets. Is that on a way-back burner for now?
[16:37]	Falcon Linden:	Where you'll be able to create a box, mark it as no physics, create a smaller box, link 'em up, and the small one will collide with a space but the big one won't collide and will hide the space
[16:37]	Morgaine Dinova:	"Andrew: we're getting '404 - Falcon not found', any suggestions?"
[16:37]	Falcon Linden:	Moundsa: Nope. Hoping to have it out at least in beta by end of year
[16:38]	Elisha Richez:	lol
[16:38]	Moundsa Mayo:	Good, that will be useful, too.
[16:38]	Falcon Linden:	Bronson: Not sure. File a jira or support ticket?
[16:38]	Falcon Linden:	Moundsa: it will, I hope, revolutionize building
[16:38]	Falcon Linden:	No more need for a torus when a few cylinders will do for the physics
[16:38]	Bronson Blackadder:	is the new jira in place?
[16:38]	Rex Cronon:	what will revolutionize building?
[16:39]	Falcon Linden:	Having the ability to specify shapes ina linkset as having no physics
[16:39]	Moundsa Mayo:	Hmm. Sounds like that's how you'll be implementing alternate physics shapes.
[16:39]	Falcon Linden:	indeed
[16:39]	Rex Cronon:	u mean vehicle building
[16:39]	Falcon Linden:	although there will be a third option, as well
[16:39]	Falcon Linden:	no physics, prim physics, or convex hull physics (meaning no hole in the middle of your torus)
[16:40]
[16:40]	Falcon Linden:	Rex: It has other uses as well. Like fixing the gap between stacked physical boxes
[16:40]	Moundsa Mayo:	Ah, cuts out MANY tris to check in physics!
[16:40]	Falcon Linden:	Moundsa: with the convex hull, the physics engine doesn't even consider triangles. It considers just the set of vertices on the outside surface
[16:41]	Moundsa Mayo:	Are the convex surface planes not triangles, then?
[16:42]	Falcon Linden:	And we'll be providing all the tools you need to visualize this as well as to make prim costs take it into account in a way that will encourage good building practices without affecting anyone who doesn't use the new feature
[16:42]	Falcon Linden:	Moundsa: they're covex N-gons.
[16:42]	Moundsa Mayo:	k.
[16:42]	Falcon Linden:	How we'll be doing any of this is unspecified.
[16:43]	Falcon Linden:	We're still experimenting. But I can tell you it does work, mostly, and it'll be a boon for builders.
[16:43]	Cummere Mayo:	theres a troubling word... mostly
[16:43]	Moundsa Mayo:	Woulkd cuts, hollows, dimples and slices be visually represented but not enter into physics calculations?
[16:43]	Falcon Linden:	It will work fully before we release it :)
[16:44]	Falcon Linden:	Moundsa: Yep
[16:44]	Cummere Mayo:	crap. falcon is anyone from g team on right now?
[16:44]	Moundsa Mayo:	Cool! On a per-link basis this will be GREAT!
[16:45]	Moon Metty:	hmmm, getting the interface right isn't easy, i guess
[16:45]	Falcon Linden:	Right. It will look like the tube, but collide like the cylinder
[16:46]	Falcon Linden:	Moon: nothing's easy around here :)
[16:46]	Moon Metty:	that's so true
[16:46]
[16:47]	Falcon Linden:	and, of course, raycasts would hit the cylinder, not the tube...
[16:47]	Liisa Runo:	/me dreams of LSL videocamera
[16:48]	Falcon Linden:	I've thought about that. I've wondered if you could easily build a TPV that would stream its viewer.
[16:48]	Falcon Linden:	err, its view
[16:48]	Moon Metty:	a camera bot
[16:48]	Liisa Runo:	yea, but everyting is more cool when done with LSL
[16:48]	Falcon Linden:	and slower.
[16:49]	Moundsa Mayo:	nd can happen while agent logged off
[16:49]	Falcon Linden:	here's a classic Linden Lab type problem for you to chew on, by the way
[16:49]	Moon Metty:	screw in a lighbulb?
[16:49]	Elisha Richez:	muahahaha
[16:49]	Moon Metty:	hehe, sorry
[16:50]	DogWomble Dollinger:	moon, linden lab employees don't change lightbulbs, they just set their environment settings to midday
[16:50]	DogWomble Dollinger:	:P
[16:50]	Rex Cronon:	do we have enough lindens for that:)
[16:50]	Morgaine Dinova:	Don't worry about the interface, just give us an API. Let the community worry about the interfaces. :-)
[16:51]	Falcon Linden:	I've written a new set of math classes that are much faster than what we used previously for vectors, matrices, and quaternions
[16:51]	Moon Metty:	oh!
[16:51]	Liisa Runo:	sweet
[16:51]	Squirrel Wood:	good :)
[16:51]	Squirrel Wood:	faster is better
[16:51]	Falcon Linden:	but using it for a 3-vector requires the same space as using it for a 4-vector. Namely, the space of 4 floats.
[16:51]	Rex Cronon:	when will we see these classes at work?
[16:51]	Squirrel Wood:	Or as the heavy would put it: You did well :)
[16:51]	Falcon Linden:	So, do we speed up LSL by making LSL vectors use it?
[16:51]	Morgaine Dinova:	That's very cool! With unit tests? No point being fast if it's wrong.
[16:51]	Moon Metty:	packing / unpacking quaternions
[16:52]	Falcon Linden:	Well, it would be faster. But some scripts would go over their memory limits
[16:52]	Falcon Linden:	Morgaine: Fully unit tested :)
[16:52]	Morgaine Dinova:	o/
[16:52]	Morgaine Dinova:	Well done Falcon
[16:52]	Liisa Runo:	yes, make scripts faster and give us more mem
[16:52]	Moon Metty:	i actually reserached that this week
[16:53]	Moon Metty:	floating point noise, normalization, packing/unpacking
[16:53]	Falcon Linden:	Liisa: giving you more memory will mean many scripts run slower.
[16:53]	Squirrel Wood:	humm... it would likely not speed up my terraformer :p
[16:53]	Rex Cronon:	most important might be to give us the tools to see how fast r our scripts and how much mem they use:)
[16:53]	Squirrel Wood:	even though it does plenty of calculating
[16:53]	DogWomble Dollinger:	squirrel, you're still using hand grenades?
[16:53]	Falcon Linden:	more memory --> more simulator memory swapping --> worse performance.
[16:53]	Falcon Linden:	Rex: we're working on those tools :)
[16:53]	Kaluura Boa:	Yes... There was a rumor a long time about about allowing us to see Top Scripts like Estate owners
[16:53]	Moundsa Mayo:	Yeah, and then SOME will complain about scripts running TOO fast ...
[16:53]	Falcon Linden:	We want to provide you with tools to view the efficiency of everything.
[16:54]	Falcon Linden:	Moundsa: been there, done that!
[16:54]	Rex Cronon:	cool:)
[16:54]	Falcon Linden:	Rendering costs, physics costs, script costs...
[16:55]	Rex Cronon:	i have a question about email
[16:55]	Moundsa Mayo:	At least with those tools we can get some hard metrics.
[16:55]	Falcon Linden:	I almost certainly don't have an answer. But you can ask anyway, we have 6 minutes to kill :)
[16:55]	Rex Cronon:	is this still a problem: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-23
[16:55]	Region incoming	email queue for objects becomes permanently suspended
[16:55]	Falcon Linden:	see Kelly's OH.
[16:55]	Morgaine Dinova:	If LSL had O(1) arrays, you bet your life that someone would complain they run too fast compared to lists :P
[16:55]	Kaluura Boa:	Not me!
[16:56]	Morgaine Dinova:	Hehe
[16:56]	Psi Merlin:	It would be nice to have an indication of how the simulator is doing for a regions - Overall memory use, swapping, cpu. That would help EO's see the wider picture and well as having lot's of details.
[16:56]	Falcon Linden:	Morgaine: yes, and you'd be right there to complain we implemented our O(1) arrays the wrong way and were destroying the OSS commmunity :)
[16:56]	Rex Cronon:	its outrageous. can u imagine that. scrits running too fast:)
[16:56]	Falcon Linden:	Psi: that's a great idea. And something that the console would be a relatively easy way to provide.
[16:57]	DogWomble Dollinger:	yeah, that'd actually be a fantastic idea
[16:57]	Moundsa Mayo:	Falcon,some time ago ther were questions asked of the Residents by the Lab about a better object-to-object communication method. Is anything going on in that area?
[16:57]	Morgaine Dinova:	Falcon: if you kept it closed source, I sure would! And I will, when you put in your cuckoo Havok code client-side, guaranteed :P
[16:57]	Falcon Linden:	Mwahaha, it's already there!
[16:57]	Falcon Linden:	or something
[16:57]	Falcon Linden:	oh, client side.
[16:57]	Falcon Linden:	Well, I'll do that too. Just not quite as soon
[16:57]	Falcon Linden:	:)
[16:58]	Morgaine Dinova:	Sure, client-side. Server-side is your affair :-)
[16:58]	Falcon Linden:	But I will make you a deal. You show me a better physics engine than Havok that's OSS, and I'll push for us to use it in the viewer instead :)
[16:59]	Falcon Linden:	we use Havok not because it's closed source (though I will admit, the fact that they provide support for it DOES matter), but because it's the best.
[16:59]	Cummere Mayo:	you serious falcon?
[16:59]	Psi Merlin:	I know that back a while a memory leask was taking me regiosn from ~300L to 1.2G, and of course taking more than it's fair share. I'd locke to be able to see that without having to bug Vektor (@ the time)
[16:59]	Morgaine Dinova:	No deal. I don't doubt that open source is sometimes not quite as good as closed (eg. KDU vs OpenJPEG), but going proprietary is a bad deal in the long run.
[17:00]	Falcon Linden:	You will be free to replace Havok with your own FOSS engine if/when we put it in the client.
[17:00]	Falcon Linden:	in fact, you'll have to, because we can't give you Havok libs
[17:02]	Morgaine Dinova:	Gonna be interesting, in a bad way. It'll be the first time LL doesn't support the open source community directly, since in both the cases of FMOD and KDU, LL provided open-source equivalents for us.
[17:02]	Falcon Linden:	I'm sure we'll do the same here
[17:03]	Morgaine Dinova:	Oh!
[17:03]	Falcon Linden:	Believe me, we really do support the FOSS community
[17:03]	Morgaine Dinova:	Well that's different! Looking forward to that then :-)
[17:03]	Squirrel Wood:	so basically we'll get the choice between fancy physics without and decent physics with source
[17:03]	Falcon Linden:	Hahaha. Glad to hear it.
[17:03]	Falcon Linden:	Squirrel: more or less, yep.
[17:03]	Falcon Linden:	actually, non havok physics is often fancier. Just slower.
[17:04]	Falcon Linden:	PhysX has some really fancy stuff
[17:04]	Morgaine Dinova:	I'm happy to sacrifice a bit of performance for openness.
[17:04]	Moundsa Mayo:	/me likes his physics full-bodied.
[17:04]	Falcon Linden:	Morgaine: but many of our residents are not. That's why we have a hard road to walk
[17:04]	Morgaine Dinova:	/me nods
[17:04]	Falcon Linden:	All right, it's after 5 and I've got to get back to your accurate vs fast terrain
[17:05]	Cummere Mayo:	depends how big a loss... and what the pysics can do in return for the slower reactions
[17:05]	Falcon Linden:	So thanks for coming and next week we'll return to your usual hosts.
[17:05]	Moon Metty:	thanks for the meeting Falcon
[17:05]	Rex Cronon:	tc falcon, and break a leg:)
[17:05]	Moundsa Mayo:	Thanks, Falcon!
[17:05]	DogWomble Dollinger:	catchya round falcon
[17:05]	Cummere Mayo:	ty falcon
[17:05]	Morgaine Dinova:	Thanks Falcon, have a good weekend :-)
[17:05]	Opensource Obscure:	take care Falcon
[17:05]	Moon Metty:	see you soon :)

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