User:Andrew Linden/Office Hours/2010 09 10

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[16:02] Moon Metty: hi Simon :)
[16:03] Moon Metty: well, i see Simon's nametag
[16:03] Latif Khalifa: Hey Simon, welcome back :)
[16:03] Simon Linden: wow, I really confused my viewer :)
[16:03] reddot99 Republic: hey simon, how was your trip?
[16:03] Simon Linden: there we go
[16:03] Latif Khalifa: Ugrade to SnowGlobe 1.5 :P
[16:03] Simon Linden: I started a TP during a region crossing, that was fun :)
[16:03] reddot99 Republic: lol
[16:03] Moon Metty: hehe
[16:03] Morgaine Dinova: Simon's hat comes first, to clear out enemies ;-)
[16:03] Rex Cronon: hello everybody
[16:03] Latif Khalifa: hey Rex
[16:04] Morgaine Dinova: Hiya Simon :-)
[16:04] Morgaine Dinova: Hi Rex :-)
[16:04] Rex Cronon: h latif, morgaine
[16:04] Simon Linden: Andrew's on the way
[16:04] Thalissa Balehawk: alguem fala portugues ?
[16:05] Moon Metty: hey Andrew :)
[16:05] Latif Khalifa: hey Andrew :)
[16:05] Morgaine Dinova: Hi Andrew :-)
[16:05] Andrew Linden: hello. Good thing Simon reminded me to show up
[16:05] Moon Metty: you must be busy
[16:05] Rex Cronon: hello andrew
[16:05] reddot99 Republic: quick question for you, any news on raycasting?
[16:05] Andrew Linden: i was busy tryping up some documentation on some math derivation I did this morning.
[16:06] Morgaine Dinova: Oooh, docs! :DD
[16:06] Moon Metty: for the linking rules?
[16:06] Andrew Linden: Heh. Er... I was commenting my octave (matlab) code.
[16:06] Andrew Linden: Yeah for linkability tests.
[16:06] Moon Metty: :) hi Oddprofessor
[16:07] Oddprofessor Snoodle: Hello Moon
[16:07] Moon Metty: nice to see you again
[16:07] lonetorus Habilis: hey andrew and simon
[16:07] Oddprofessor Snoodle: And everyone!
[16:07] Oddprofessor Snoodle: thanks!
[16:07] reddot99 Republic: matlab? you mean the program MatLab?
[16:07] Rex Cronon: hi
[16:07] Oddprofessor Snoodle: I have come with another petulent and strident demand for immediate action.
[16:07] Oddprofessor Snoodle: If you don't mind.
[16:07] Morgaine Dinova: * sci-mathematics/octave 
 Latest version available: 3.2.4-r1
[16:07] Morgaine Dinova: Never used it though :P
[16:07] Andrew Linden: Ah Oddprofessor, welcome back. I was talking to one of our RIT graduates here at the lab, telling them I helped out some RIT profressor with a script project.
[16:07] Oddprofessor Snoodle: :-)
[16:08] reddot99 Republic: rit?
[16:08] Oddprofessor Snoodle: Yep, I'm having a lot of fun messing around with that script.
[16:08] Oddprofessor Snoodle: Yes, I teach physics at RIT.
[16:08] Andrew Linden: Rochester Institute of Technology
[16:08] Oddprofessor Snoodle: (Soon to be as well-known a TLA as MIT.)
[16:08] reddot99 Republic: oh hey, i had an offer to attend there, decided to stay in town though
[16:09] Oddprofessor Snoodle: Well, people are always doing unfathomable things.
[16:09] Oddprofessor Snoodle: ㋡
[16:09] reddot99 Republic: didnt see an engineering program there :p
[16:09] Oddprofessor Snoodle: Didn't look hard enough!
[16:09] Morgaine Dinova: The Philosophy equivalent of RIT isn't doing so well
[16:09] Andrew Linden: Lets see... do I have any news? I have to pause to remember...
[16:09] Oddprofessor Snoodle: Sometimes they hide, though.
[16:10] Ardy Lay: Server RC channels
[16:11] Andrew Linden: I hope to actually finish the linkability work up early next week, now that I'm done with the math part (with unit tests).
[16:11] lonetorus Habilis: andrew, well, we could always talk about my inability to receive offline im's to my email, despite setting etc. ;)
[16:11] reddot99 Republic: can we have raycasting any time soon?
[16:11] Andrew Linden: Then I'll spend the next three weeks working more on region crossings, we've got a number of things to do there that should help.
[16:11] Morgaine Dinova: What framework drives the unit tests?
[16:12] Andrew Linden: Most of my pending work is still under test. I hope to get it on aditi next week.
[16:12] Oddprofessor Snoodle: I am curious about making java applets available in Shared Media.
[16:12] Andrew Linden: Morgain, we're using something called "tut" for our C++ tests.
[16:13] Morgaine Dinova: Was wondering whether there's some kind of framework that does regression testing each time you change somthing, since manual is so completely - -
[16:13] reddot99 Republic: i dont think you would be able to make java applets on the server
[16:13] Andrew Linden: Morgaine, these are "unit tests" that I've been writing.
[16:13] Andrew Linden: They run whenever there is a compile change.
[16:13] Andrew Linden: so they test very small units
[16:14] Andrew Linden: such as... adding two LLVector3's and making sure the result is what is expected.
[16:14] Andrew Linden: Each "unit test" covers very little ground.
[16:14] Andrew Linden: In this case I wrote some algorithms for computing the bounding sphere of a collection of points.
[16:14] Morgaine Dinova: That's cool. Test harnesses or frameworks can bring together unit tests into regression tests, but if the unit happens on every change, I guess that's the same.
[16:15] Andrew Linden: The unit tests make sure the algorithms continue to work should anyone make any changes.
[16:15] Moon Metty: yes
[16:15] Morgaine Dinova: /me nods
[16:15] Andrew Linden: Yes, we've been expanding our 'tut' unit tests for a year or more now
[16:16] Andrew Linden: and only one month ago I had the first unit test find a bug in code I was working on
[16:16] reddot99 Republic: andrew, what causes physloc?
[16:16] reddot99 Republic: lock
[16:16] Simon Linden: Oddprofessor -- I think java isn't possible on shared media (this is from a simple google search) but your best bet for something interesting is probably Flash, which will work
[16:16] Andrew Linden: I had failed to initialize a new class member in the 4th class constructor, which I hadn't noticed
[16:16] Morgaine Dinova: * dev-libs/tut 
 Latest version available: 2009.08.30
[16:16] Andrew Linden: the unit tests caught the problem
[16:16] Morgaine Dinova: (Never used it)
[16:16] Morgaine Dinova: /me updates tut
[16:16] Oddprofessor Snoodle: Hm... Sadly, a product that I use produces very useful things that I use in my teaching.
[16:17] Andrew Linden: so I've seen evidence that they work -- once you have enough tests covering the code
[16:17] Oddprofessor Snoodle: think of something like physlets.
[16:17] Oddprofessor Snoodle: But much cooler.
[16:17] Andrew Linden: Oddprofessor, we don't know much about Shared Media.
[16:17] Oddprofessor Snoodle: But it uses java,
[16:17] reddot99 Republic: that'd be best discussed with veiwer folks
[16:17] Andrew Linden: If you want to ask questions about getting java apps to show up there you've come to the wrong office hours.
[16:17] Oddprofessor Snoodle: ㋡
[16:17] Morgaine Dinova: /me chuckles
[16:17] Oddprofessor Snoodle: Maybe you can point me towards the right people?
[16:17] Latif Khalifa: It's a viewer thing
[16:18] Jonathan Yap: Maybe Oddprofessor would be better off asking in AW Groupies (he needs an invite)?
[16:18] Andrew Linden: Anybody know if LL holds office hours that would cover that subject?
[16:18] reddot99 Republic: what your thinking probably would require it to be run the web pages on the server
[16:18] Andrew Linden: Lemme ask the LL dev who might know...
[16:18] Latif Khalifa: Shared media in viewer2 does not support java
[16:18] Oddprofessor Snoodle: Yes, that's evident Latif.
[16:18] Rex Cronon: applets don't run server side
[16:18] reddot99 Republic: niether does the viewer browser
[16:18] reddot99 Republic: i'm saying it'd have to
[16:18] Oddprofessor Snoodle: I was hoping that there might be some future plans....
[16:18] Simon Linden: Correct REx, it's in the viewer like a browser
[16:19] Latif Khalifa: That's up to viewer team. Oddprofessor, I'd suggest you visit Esbee Linden's office hour and present your tought there, that way they might be inluded in the viewer¨
[16:19] Andrew Linden: The Shared Media team no longer holds office hours.
[16:20] Oddprofessor Snoodle: /me cries.
[16:20] reddot99 Republic: probably could schedule an appointment
[16:20] Andrew Linden: I'm asking an LL dev what the plans are for java support.
[16:20] Latif Khalifa: Esbee's is good for viewer features
[16:20] Andrew Linden: We'll see what he says.
[16:20] Morgaine Dinova: Samuel wasn't really a front-end community person, felt very uncomfortable with it. (Which is fine)
[16:21] Latif Khalifa: Her office hours are on Wednesdays at 8am SL time at http://maps.secondlife.com/secondlife/Hippotropolis/201/115/21
[16:21] Andrew Linden: yes, Samuel is the guy to ask. You can email him questions, perhaps he'll answer.
[16:22] reddot99 Republic: esbee does have office hours for snowstorm
[16:22] Morgaine Dinova: And they're very good too
[16:22] Oddprofessor Snoodle: Samuel L responded to one of my questions on the forums, told me to contact him, which I attempted to do. Never heard back, but people are busy.
[16:23] lonetorus Habilis: /me pokes andrew with a limp banana
[16:23] Oddprofessor Snoodle: Thanks, I'll see what I can turn up with those two contacts.
[16:23] lonetorus Habilis: did you ever look into why my offline ims dont go to my email?
[16:23] reddot99 Republic: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Office_hours
[16:23] Andrew Linden: /me reads back. What was that bananna poke about?
[16:23] Morgaine Dinova: TUT updated. /me checks how to use it.
[16:23] Oddprofessor Snoodle: Have a good weekend!
[16:23] Moon Metty: you too Oddprof :)
[16:23] lonetorus Habilis: for over a year my ims dont go to email when im offline
[16:24] lonetorus Habilis: it works for other accounts and alts
[16:24] Andrew Linden: oh right, offline IM's failing. No I never did the investigation for that, unfortunately.
[16:24] lonetorus Habilis: and the client setting does nothing
[16:24] Latif Khalifa: Andrew has been "checking into it" for about half a year now ;)
[16:24] lonetorus Habilis: nor (web)dashboard setting
[16:24] Andrew Linden: yeah, that and a dozen other things
[16:24] reddot99 Republic: did you make sure the email for that account is correvt?
[16:24] reddot99 Republic: correct
[16:24] lonetorus Habilis: yes
[16:24] lonetorus Habilis: i receive all other sl related email on it
[16:24] lonetorus Habilis: (lots)
[16:24] Jonathan Yap: Have you tried sending them to a different email host?
[16:24] Latif Khalifa: reddot99 every possible setting and different email adresses have been checked
[16:25] lonetorus Habilis: its a gmail account
[16:25] reddot99 Republic: k,
[16:25] Latif Khalifa: its just this one account that does not send offline emails
[16:25] lonetorus Habilis: yeh
[16:25] Morgaine Dinova: In case anyone else is interesting in testing --- http://tut-framework.sourceforge.net/
[16:25] Jonathan Yap: And they do not fall into the spam filter?
[16:25] Latif Khalifa: Jon, we tried with his alt account it works fine with gmail
[16:25] Andrew Linden: lonetorus, I think I'd have to hijack your account on aditi to test and try to reproduce the problem
[16:25] reddot99 Republic: lo
[16:25] Latif Khalifa: just one acount seem to be blackholing it
[16:26] lonetorus Habilis: it stopped working around the time we had those user servers upgraded, just before the whole void sim debacle
[16:26] lonetorus Habilis: andrew, feel free
[16:26] Jonathan Yap: Latif, that was why I was asking if they were arriving but being filed as spam
[16:26] Andrew Linden: do offline IM's on aditi route to email? anybody know?
[16:26] Jonathan Yap: Just a thought :)
[16:26] Latif Khalifa: Andrew, no they don't
[16:26] reddot99 Republic: probably would have to enable it,
[16:26] Andrew Linden: well, the simulator certainly tries, I'm sure. The email routing is just disabled.
[16:26] Jonathan Yap: But you can send a snapshot to the dev mailing list
[16:27] lonetorus Habilis: how come i can be a member of 27 groups on aditi?
[16:27] reddot99 Republic: because if you leave groups here, it does update
[16:27] reddot99 Republic: doesnt
[16:27] reddot99 Republic: it only updates who joins
[16:27] Latif Khalifa: although some strangeness has been happening lately with aditi. people report offline group notices being recieved upon login on agni
[16:27] lonetorus Habilis: ahh
[16:27] reddot99 Republic: i've got 35 groups on aditi
[16:28] Jonathan Yap: reddot, that is a feature, not a bug, eh?
[16:28] reddot99 Republic: because they dont do full mirroring anymore
[16:28] Moon Metty: not for a long time now
[16:29] Moon Metty: Prospero did the last full update
[16:29] reddot99 Republic: i had talked to oscar linden about it, at least in passing, but yeah, thats what i was told
[16:29] lonetorus Habilis: heh, sent a email to oskar for a sync, got a RTFM reply ;) (so many new things after i have returned from my summer hiatus)
[16:29] reddot99 Republic: hey falcon
[16:29] Moon Metty: Falcon :)
[16:29] Falcon Linden: What's broken now? ;)
[16:29] reddot99 Republic: how goes land collision fixs?
[16:29] Rex Cronon: hi
[16:29] reddot99 Republic: 35 groups on aditi, lol,
[16:30] Falcon Linden: I call it fixed. I haven't seen or worked on the bug, but I still call it fixed!
[16:30] Falcon Linden: :)
[16:30] reddot99 Republic: lol
[16:30] Latif Khalifa: Simo, Is tcmalloc producing any helpful clues why sims bloat after couple of days of uptime?
[16:30] Andrew Linden: no clues yet Latif.
[16:30] reddot99 Republic: oh, yeah, physics memory explodes in combat sims without restarts
[16:30] Latif Khalifa: Its pretty bad
[16:30] Simon Linden: No fix yet, Latif, but Andrew and I looked at the results from a previous beta office hours
[16:30] Andrew Linden: we're going to dig into tcmalloc some more next week
[16:30] Falcon Linden: reddot99: pffft. Physics memory never explodes!
[16:31] Falcon Linden: wait....nevermind. It explodes and crashes the sims.
[16:31] reddot99 Republic: 30 megabytes to 50 someodd
[16:31] Simon Linden: We found some things to work on ... possibly flushing memory, and getting more data out of tcmalloc
[16:31] Rex Cronon: it has a meltdown?
[16:31] Andrew Linden: we need to update from 1.4 to 1.6, and add some stats measurement then try tcmalloc again.
[16:31] reddot99 Republic: on a homestead even
[16:31] Falcon Linden: By the way, somebody asked me a while back what the status of llCastRay was
[16:31] Latif Khalifa: Is visiting busy agni sims that really slowdown be an option?
[16:31] reddot99 Republic: was me
[16:31] Falcon Linden: The answer is: shelved until further notice, unfortunately.
[16:32] lonetorus Habilis: lots of nice documentation for it on the wiki, i thought it was in production already?
[16:32] Falcon Linden: If I can sneak it out in my free time and not get fired, though, I will.
[16:32] Moon Metty: :)
[16:32] lonetorus Habilis: please do XD
[16:32] Rex Cronon: u used it near a blackhole and it froze in time:)
[16:32] lonetorus Habilis: maybe you wont get fired, but raycast instead? ;)
[16:32] reddot99 Republic: falcon, make it used to fix a couple of other bugs :p
[16:32] Falcon Linden: Ionetorus: naah, it was on Aditi and still had a few bugs to be worked out when we decided to refocus on basic functionality
[16:33] Falcon Linden: Acch, bad pun. Bad!
[16:33] Morgaine Dinova: Oh, is "free time" an official slot, like the 20% own time in Google?
[16:33] lonetorus Habilis: sowwy
[16:33] lonetorus Habilis: XD
[16:33] Falcon Linden: Morgaine: No.
[16:33] Morgaine Dinova: kk
[16:33] Andrew Linden: Falcon, maybe we can ship it then enable it temporarily per-region for experimentation.
[16:33] reddot99 Republic: falcon, what about more flexible materials choices?
[16:34] Latif Khalifa: it's all about "fixing lag" these days
[16:34] reddot99 Republic: just make it return a empty list if its disabled in the sim?
[16:34] Falcon Linden: That is well under way, reddot99, because it was already well underway before any of this :)
[16:34] Falcon Linden: oh, right, now I remember the problem with cast ray
[16:34] Latif Khalifa: so who fixed most lag lately? :)
[16:35] Falcon Linden: we need to implement limits on it
[16:35] Falcon Linden: And those limits will likely be computation time based
[16:35] Falcon Linden: which means writing some code around that
[16:35] reddot99 Republic: limits, you mean more than the 4 per object?
[16:35] Morgaine Dinova: Well "FEF!" does have merit as an idea, as long as it doesn't exclude progress. Lag benefits no one.
[16:35] Andrew Linden: yeah, we don't want to add a new mode by which you can kill simulator performance
[16:35] Falcon Linden: yeah, we'll probably let you cast as much as you want, provided you use less than N microseconds of sim time
[16:36] Falcon Linden: Morgaine: Lag fighting is a huge part of FEF
[16:36] Falcon Linden: and we are actively working on it
[16:36] Andrew Linden: Remember, "Fun" is one of those letters. That includes progress in features.
[16:36] Morgaine Dinova: /me nods
[16:36] lonetorus Habilis: what do you guys think of the ~ console for sims, for estateowners to finetine their sim, as a way to get around slow UI feature additions?
[16:36] reddot99 Republic: most physics time is used to move small objects, if i remember
[16:36] Andrew Linden: However our team is focusing on "Fast" right now.
[16:36] lonetorus Habilis: finetune
[16:36] reddot99 Republic: or noticed, anyway,
[16:36] Falcon Linden: Ionet: That's the point of it
[16:36] Falcon Linden: reddot99: uh...it's kind of infinitely more complicated than that :)
[16:36] Latif Khalifa: I was hoping 1-42 was going to help with the sim freezes, but it didn't :(
[16:36] Morgaine Dinova: /me nods to both Andrew and Falcon :-)
[16:36] Morgaine Dinova: /me nods to everybody! :P
[16:37] lonetorus Habilis: Lonetorus (anagram of Tournesol, dont ask)
[16:37] Moon Metty: there's a slight change in sim-freezes
[16:37] Falcon Linden: sim freezes?
[16:37] Falcon Linden: which kind?
[16:37] Falcon Linden: :P
[16:37] reddot99 Republic: 1.42 made it so that rez queues dont crash sims anymore
[16:37] Falcon Linden: right
[16:37] Andrew Linden: Lag spikes == "sim freezes", i think
[16:37] Ardy Lay: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-22835
[16:37] Latif Khalifa: Falcon, well sim freezes totally for up to 30 seconds
[16:37] World map OPEN and Zoomed Out causes Region Performance to Drop below normal
[16:37] lonetorus Habilis: so ppl could enable raycast for their own sim, that would be major cool
[16:37] Moon Metty: the distribution graph shows less freezes in the shortest, and more in the next category
[16:38] Moon Metty: but it has only run for 550 hours
[16:38] Falcon Linden: Lonet: It's not the release that's the issue, it's the dev time to set proper limits and fix the bugs.
[16:38] Moon Metty: that's not a lot of data
[16:38] Moon Metty: the 2nd category is from 0.7 to 1 second
[16:39] Falcon Linden: I think our next sim release, or the one after, will contain the option to use accurate, slow terrain physics or the current faster algorithm
[16:39] Falcon Linden: though it will only be settable if we release a viewer that supports the console...
[16:39] Falcon Linden: Or document it. That would be cool. Documenting it.
[16:39] lonetorus Habilis: lol
[16:39] Moon Metty: hehehe
[16:39] lonetorus Habilis: why slower method?
[16:39] Falcon Linden: *shrugs*
[16:39] Falcon Linden: It was there.
[16:39] lonetorus Habilis: i mean, usually ppl are already straining their sim to the max
[16:39] Latif Khalifa: Or make a web interface for estate owners so cool stuff could be confgured tehre without the need for viewer updates
[16:40] Moon Metty: yes, and a possibility to restart a sim for mainland owners
[16:40] Falcon Linden: that wouldn't be my area of work
[16:40] Falcon Linden: you'll be able to restart your region via the console
[16:40] Jonathan Yap: I heard yesterday the web group has a massive backlog
[16:40] Falcon Linden: 'restart
[16:41] Moon Metty: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/WEB-2778
[16:41] LL needs some fast-track way for mainland concierge customers to get a sim restart
[16:41] reddot99 Republic: wait, the console exists now? just doesnt have a veiwer part?
[16:41] Falcon Linden: reddot99: not deployed to agni or aditi
[16:41] Moon Metty: the new jira-helper is on the table, btw
[16:41] Moon Metty: you can grab a copy if all is well
[16:41] reddot99 Republic: but the code is sitting around?
[16:41] Falcon Linden: in a branch, pending unrelated fixes and a merge to trunk, yes
[16:41] Latif Khalifa: doesn't seem to be copy to all
[16:42] lonetorus Habilis: latif, i belive web projects are even more resource strained at ll, (afaik according to yoz)
[16:42] Simon Linden: Thanks Moon, I'll grab one
[16:42] Andrew Linden: /me migrated the viewer simconsole stuff to the Snowstorm paradigm today, but it is still sitting in an internal repository.
[16:42] lonetorus Habilis: like, 2012 strained
[16:42] Andrew Linden: The server-side simconsole work is in my maint-server repo, currently under test.
[16:42] Latif Khalifa: cannot take a copy
[16:42] Moon Metty: you can't get a copy Latif?
[16:42] Moon Metty: lol
[16:43] Moon Metty: hmmm
[16:43] Simon Linden: I can't either, odd...
[16:43] Moon Metty: it's full perm
[16:43] reddot99 Republic: you have to have all contents at allow anybody to copy now days
[16:43] Jonathan Yap: I can't either
[16:43] Falcon Linden: I want rigid body keyframing.
[16:43] Moon Metty: and set to anyone can copy
[16:43] Morgaine Dinova: Moving everything to web services is a good idea, but it's missing the point to then code all the client-side interfaces into a monolithic viewer.
[16:43] Moon Metty: i'll set it for sale
[16:43] Latif Khalifa: Moon, must be the contents beeing no copy, you need to set them too for copy to all
[16:43] Moon Metty: there
[16:43] Falcon Linden: morgaine: naah, see, that's not what's happening with this. The client side just posts whatever your command was to the simulator service.
[16:44] Falcon Linden: oh, and btw, I was thinking about what you said about using a real language for the console, etc.
[16:44] Latif Khalifa: "bought" it
[16:44] Moon Metty: all contents are copy, Latif
[16:44] Latif Khalifa: thanks
[16:44] Andrew Linden: I think a web wrapper could be witten for the simconsole stuff, as long as it can handle capabilities.
[16:44] Falcon Linden: And it really would have been the wrong choice to do so here. I'd still have had to do 99.9% of the work I did in order to integrate the language, plus other work to integrate the language libraries
[16:44] lonetorus Habilis: how does the client talk to the console (protocol?)
[16:45] Falcon Linden: HTTP POST
[16:45] Morgaine Dinova: Falcon: sure, but the messages neither need to be sent from the viewer nor the results displayed in the viewer. "Decoupled" is the most important word in engineering.
[16:45] Latif Khalifa: I'm sure I'll make one with libomv :)
[16:45] Simon Linden: I'd also think future viewers could add some functions via running the console under the hood
[16:45] lonetorus Habilis: well, thats pretty darn cool, can be done in lsl then too
[16:45] Falcon Linden: Morgaine: And that is the case here. The message can be sent from anything that supports capabilities
[16:45] reddot99 Republic: if you can login first, via lsl
[16:45] Falcon Linden: There is nothing in the console and no plans whatsoever to add any feature to the console that you'd want to script
[16:45] Falcon Linden: it is intended for sim configuration
[16:46] reddot99 Republic: lower or raise agent limits?
[16:46] lonetorus Habilis: so?, battle sims might want to adjust grey goo fence during gameplay
[16:46] Falcon Linden: reddot99: that's the kind of thing, yes, though the only features there now are restart and terrain swap
[16:46] reddot99 Republic: terrain swap would be nice if estate managers could use it as well
[16:47] Falcon Linden: estate managers can use anything estate owners can use in the console
[16:47] reddot99 Republic: the raw file stuff?
[16:47] Falcon Linden: terrain swap is readable/writeable by managers and gods only
[16:47] Falcon Linden: oh, no
[16:47] Falcon Linden: It's just terrain type
[16:47] Falcon Linden: there's no support for multiple files
[16:47] reddot99 Republic: then how do the raw terrain files work
[16:48] Falcon Linden: basically, when you guys first see this, it will be utterly useless.
[16:48] Falcon Linden: Just so we're clear about expectations :)
[16:48] lonetorus Habilis: reddot, as far as i know only available to estate owner
[16:48] Morgaine Dinova: Falcon: is the commandline handling already in the Snowstorm backlog somewhere?
[16:48] Falcon Linden: You'll be able to restart the sim and you'll be able to switch to a slower form of terrain simulation :P
[16:48] lonetorus Habilis: automated restarts XD
[16:48] Falcon Linden: Morgaine: The viewer code is written.
[16:48] Falcon Linden: It needs to be merged and QA'd.
[16:49] reddot99 Republic: asking for that, i know its owner only now, but its a pain in the ass if your renting from a 3rd party
[16:49] Morgaine Dinova: Oh joy, designed, written and QA's before it's even visible on the Snowstorm backlog. So much for intent.
[16:49] Falcon Linden: Morgaine: This was all done before that plan was written
[16:50] Morgaine Dinova: kk
[16:50] Falcon Linden: This work began in July
[16:50] Falcon Linden: and the viewer part was done in july, too, iirc
[16:50] Morgaine Dinova: Fair enough, the past is past
[16:50] Ardy Lay: Snowstorm is NOT the only team that does viewer work.
[16:50] Latif Khalifa: if you believe that the arrow of time cannot be turned around :P
[16:50] reddot99 Republic: i'd like a way to be able to edit terrain by image files and nicer editing tools
[16:51] Morgaine Dinova: Ardy: yeah, but that's the problem. As Oz says, other scrums buying into Philip's "openness" plan is at their discression.
[16:51] Falcon Linden: reddot99: I'd like a pony.
[16:51] Andrew Linden: Actually, we decided we needed the simconsole, so it is primarily an admin/test/dev tool
[16:51] Andrew Linden: but we expect it to be useful, so we'll probably eventually open it up to estate managers
[16:51] Andrew Linden: then more if that works out.
[16:52] Falcon Linden: Morgaine: I can tell you that the team andrew, simon, and I are on has just agreed yesterday that we'll be doing all our task-y stuff on pjira
[16:52] lonetorus Habilis: PONIES!!11
[16:52] Latif Khalifa: well there is only one jira now :)
[16:52] Morgaine Dinova: Oh, command line handling is going to be useful for an *immense* number of things. Which is why it would have been nice to have been designed openly, but can't change the past.
[16:52] Falcon Linden: point is, all public
[16:52] reddot99 Republic: sec jiras are still seprate, arent they?
[16:53] Morgaine Dinova: Falcon: woot!!! :D
[16:53] Latif Khalifa: Falcon, cool
[16:53] Falcon Linden: Morgaine: anything you would like it to be able to do, it will be able to do...if we feel like implementing it ;)
[16:53] Latif Khalifa: "engine room"?
[16:53] Falcon Linden: yes
[16:53] lonetorus Habilis: live top for resources
[16:53] Moon Metty: i want a telepathic UI
[16:53] reddot99 Republic: i see people wanting to turn gravity off
[16:53] Falcon Linden: Though I'm also on an undisclosed second team with an undisclosed jira name
[16:54] Latif Khalifa: lol
[16:54] reddot99 Republic: so much for undisclosed
[16:54] Falcon Linden: reddot99: thought of that. kinda tricky. Gravity is hard coded in places
[16:54] Falcon Linden: reddot99: Nope. It's undisclosed. I'm not disclosing it.
[16:54] Falcon Linden: It's my team of Merry Men.
[16:54] lonetorus Habilis: well, i still want propper gravity for large prim objects, like that game, "prey"
[16:54] Falcon Linden: or...
[16:54] Falcon Linden: my Knights!
[16:54] Latif Khalifa: what's the jira label for your team?
[16:54] Falcon Linden: The Knights of my Rectangular Table
[16:54] Falcon Linden: Latif: I don't know. See? Undisclosed.
[16:54] reddot99 Republic: you disclosed the existance of it, lol
[16:54] Latif Khalifa: ENGINE- ?
[16:55] Jonathan Yap: I think he was asking about the public team's name?
[16:55] Andrew Linden: Sigh... as of yet unannounced. Not very public Falcon. I thought that project was going public.
[16:55] Falcon Linden: Lonet: Part of the physics materials will include per-linkset gravity
[16:55] Morgaine Dinova: Falcon: indeed, you determine what commands SL responds to, or course. :-) But note that when viewers are used in other worlds, it's those worlds that control the messages theyt respond to, not LL.
[16:55] Falcon Linden: Andrew: Going. Not gone.
[16:55] Falcon Linden: Morgaine: You have to realize that this protocol consists of--get this--sending a line of text via POST and receiving a response string.
[16:55] Latif Khalifa: Oz has been dropping hints for aweek now, that major new content feature is about to go to beta, how hard is it to guess? :)
[16:55] reddot99 Republic: by hard coded, you mean the 9.81 meters per second squared?
[16:55] Falcon Linden: It's really not that big a deal :)
[16:56] Morgaine Dinova: hehe, kk |:-)
[16:56] Falcon Linden: reddot99 something like that
[16:56] lonetorus Habilis: bird linden, but will i be able to stick my av to the underside of a megaprim and walk around?
[16:56] Falcon Linden: no, but you will be able to climb nearly vertical surfaces
[16:56] Falcon Linden: not fully vertical
[16:56] Falcon Linden: just nearly
[16:56] Falcon Linden: (max friction coefficient = 255)
[16:56] lonetorus Habilis: we can do so already
[16:56] Rex Cronon: spiderman:)
[16:57] Falcon Linden: and make vehicles that don't behave like moon buggies!
[16:57] lonetorus Habilis: that i welcome :D
[16:57] Falcon Linden: and have more than 32 prims (though not more than 32 physical prims)
[16:57] Morgaine Dinova: Doh, you're gonna break lunar sims? :DDD
[16:57] Moon Metty: yes, that's nice
[16:57] Falcon Linden: Morgaine: Totally. I'm gonna break every sim.
[16:57] Moon Metty: simple colision shapes
[16:57] reddot99 Republic: no plans for joints in there, though, sadly?
[16:57] Falcon Linden: if only...
[16:58] Latif Khalifa: Falcon, what do you mean "going to"? :P
[16:58] Falcon Linden: I put client side physics before joints.
[16:58] Falcon Linden: Latif: PFFFFT!
[16:58] Morgaine Dinova: Real gravity control would be great
[16:58] Falcon Linden: Real gravity control won't work with havok
[16:58] Falcon Linden: well
[16:58] Falcon Linden: sort of
[16:58] reddot99 Republic: how would it not?
[16:58] Falcon Linden: you could set any gravity vector you like with havok
[16:58] Falcon Linden: but, for example, /real/ gravity (GMm/r toward the center of mass) would not
[16:59] Morgaine Dinova: Ah right, there's just up/down
[16:59] reddot99 Republic: well, that'd be insane computation why,
[16:59] reddot99 Republic: wise
[16:59] Falcon Linden: Gravity fields with non-zero divergence aren't stable under some solvers.
[16:59] Falcon Linden: red: yeah, and not really fun either
[16:59] Morgaine Dinova: Up/down would be fine for non-space applications, as long as you can set the magnitide of the vector
[17:00] Falcon Linden: well, you could even do space by setting grav to 0
[17:00] Falcon Linden: but the viewer would ruin it all
[17:00] Falcon Linden: because the viewer assumes gravity.
[17:00] lonetorus Habilis: seems to run pretty smooth here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zgqq7YdE5w4
[17:01] Moon Metty: sure, blame it on the viewer ..
[17:01] reddot99 Republic: ah, because avatars are always upright?
[17:01] lonetorus Habilis: well, could always make it point feet towards closes/strongest gravity center
[17:01] Falcon Linden: Lonet: Yeah, that's cool. It doesn't work how you think, though, I suspect :)
[17:02] reddot99 Republic: its the "avatar rotation magic" andrew mentioned one time
[17:02] reddot99 Republic: i bet
[17:02] lonetorus Habilis: probably some zones you pass, and it will flip the player
[17:02] reddot99 Republic: am i close?
[17:03] lonetorus Habilis: but that could be a prim "phys material"
[17:03] Andrew Linden: huh, I have to update my flash player it seems.
[17:03] lonetorus Habilis: yeah, it gets haxed every other sunday
[17:03] Jonathan Yap: Instead of adjusting gravity, how about adding magnetism?
[17:03] Morgaine Dinova: Nice video. Best watched on an empty stomach :-)
[17:03] Moon Metty: oh, i used to have that problem Andrew, yuotube not playing ... try watching via a proxy
[17:04] lonetorus Habilis: im not asking for the full on physics calculation, proximations and tricks that give same result are fine too ;)
[17:04] lonetorus Habilis: + pony
[17:04] reddot99 Republic: lone, the issue is that the avatar rotations are set in stone, so to speak, you cant change the avatars up or down
[17:05] reddot99 Republic: probably would be a nice hack to change the 'veiwer wind' varible to actually being gravity
[17:05] Morgaine Dinova: Should be just a current matrix for the av
[17:05] Falcon Linden: The problem, folks, with adding a lot of the really cool features you see in stuff like that, is how the heck do you provide a UI for it?
[17:05] Jonathan Yap: Or be able to let prims attract each other
[17:05] Moon Metty: a telepathic UI would solve everything ....
[17:05] reddot99 Republic: command line?
[17:06] Falcon Linden: Anything Yap is describing would be possible, but UI?
[17:06] Falcon Linden: Tools?
[17:06] Falcon Linden: Each thing would have to be hand crafted.
[17:06] Falcon Linden: Nightmare.
[17:06] Morgaine Dinova: Falcon: strongly recommend you leave the UI to the community ^_^ <grin>
[17:06] lonetorus Habilis: use prims
[17:06] lonetorus Habilis: like lights
[17:06] Falcon Linden: Morgaine: Okay, let me rephrase: How do you create the public facing API
[17:06] Latif Khalifa: just make llDoWhatIWant() and be done with it ;)
[17:06] Falcon Linden: it would be its own scripting language
[17:06] Simon Linden: I have to run ... thanks everyone for coming
[17:06] Simon Linden: See you next time
[17:06] Falcon Linden: Later Simon
[17:06] Latif Khalifa: take care simon :)
[17:06] Morgaine Dinova: Falcon: ah, now that is a very good question
[17:06] lonetorus Habilis: see ya simon
[17:06] Latif Khalifa: have a nice weekend
[17:06] Moon Metty: have a good weekend Simon :)
[17:06] Rex Cronon: tc simon
[17:06] Simon Linden: have a great weekend
[17:06] Morgaine Dinova: Cyu Simon :-)
[17:07] Falcon Linden: If and when LSL becomes fast enough, we COULD imagine allowing you to write callback code for objects
[17:07] reddot99 Republic: almost would say something like lsl, because thats familar already,
[17:07] Moon Metty: and how about this: we already have syntax highlighting, why not have bug-highlighting?
[17:07] Falcon Linden: but LSL is way, way WAY too slow
[17:07] Moon Metty: it saves time debugging
[17:07] Latif Khalifa: and c# got canned :(
[17:07] Falcon Linden: Moon: Because your whole script would be highlighted that way :P
[17:07] reddot99 Republic: it got canned?
[17:07] Moon Metty: ah, good point Falcon :)
[17:08] lonetorus Habilis: why would it need its own user accessible script ?
[17:08] Latif Khalifa: reddot they killed it
[17:08] Falcon Linden: because you want a general way of specifying object interactions
[17:08] reddot99 Republic: to set parameters, lone
[17:08] Jonathan Yap: Babbage and crew were working on C#
[17:08] Falcon Linden: you want things like: If an object is in this area, alter it in this way. Every frame.
[17:08] lonetorus Habilis: but cant we set paramaters just like the existing things like lights, flex etc in build tool
[17:08] Falcon Linden: If 4 objects are in this area, alter all of them in this other way. At the same time. Every frame.
[17:09] Falcon Linden: Lonet: For what, though? Each feature would have its own set of parameters
[17:09] Falcon Linden: if there were a single specific feature, sure
[17:09] lonetorus Habilis: well, for ponies of course, duh
[17:09] Falcon Linden: but what you really want is full control of Havok
[17:09] lonetorus Habilis: yeah, i suppose
[17:09] lonetorus Habilis: but i would be happy with a limited subset too
[17:09] reddot99 Republic: the havok team would have to code it for you then, i assume
[17:09] Falcon Linden: You have a limited subset :)
[17:10] Falcon Linden: reddot99: I am the Havok team.
[17:10] Falcon Linden: :)
[17:10] lonetorus Habilis: not quite as limited, still missing the pony
[17:10] reddot99 Republic: i mean, the people who made havok
[17:10] Falcon Linden: I made Havok.
[17:10] Falcon Linden: Okay, that's a lie.
[17:10] reddot99 Republic: lol
[17:10] Falcon Linden: But I did work for them.
[17:10] reddot99 Republic: causing havok and making the havok engine are two completely different things falcon, lol
[17:10] lonetorus Habilis: /me hopes he was not the picolo
[17:11] Falcon Linden: Anything outside of their core simulation code (constraint solving, integration, collision detection), I can do.
[17:11] Latif Khalifa: lol
[17:11] Falcon Linden: Thing is, there's only one of me :)
[17:11] Morgaine Dinova: It's great having just one person to blame for physics ^_^
[17:11] Falcon Linden: which, of course, is why there are any regions still running at all. If there were more of me, there'd be none!
[17:11] Latif Khalifa: yeah we need about 50%
[17:11] Andrew Linden: Sigh... these feature wishful dreaming sessions are useful, but also tend to stress me out. Here I am trying to get a maint-server with the fix for SVC-129 out the door, for the last week.
[17:11]
[17:11] ROTATION and PRIM_LOCAL_POSITION to complement llGetLocalRot() and llGetLocalPos()
[17:11] reddot99 Republic: lol
[17:11] lonetorus Habilis: we need to work on cloning falcon first then
[17:11] lonetorus Habilis: highest priority
[17:12] reddot99 Republic: we'd lose regions like that
[17:12] Andrew Linden: I'm going to depart. Have a good weekend everyone.
[17:12] Moon Metty: :)
[17:12] reddot99 Republic: see ya andrew
[17:12] Falcon Linden: I'm going to cause andrew more stress
[17:12] Moon Metty: see you next week Andrew :)
[17:12] Falcon Linden: Cheers folks :)
[17:12] Morgaine Dinova: Take care Andrew, enjoy weekend :-)
[17:12] Latif Khalifa: take care adrew, have fun
[17:12] reddot99 Republic: lol
[17:12] Ardy Lay: See you later Andrew
[17:12] Falcon Linden: See you in 5 seconds, Andrew
[17:12] Falcon Linden: :P
[17:12] Moon Metty: heehee
[17:12] Morgaine Dinova: Cyu Falcon :-)
[17:12] Panel 3: Freeze of 0.524395s detected (Mono)
[17:12] Panel 3: Freeze of 0.525752s detected (LSO)
[17:12] Latif Khalifa: see you falcon :)
[17:12] Rex Cronon: tc andrew
[17:12] Rex Cronon: tc falcon

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