User:Andrew Linden/Office Hours/2010 09 10

Transcript

[16:02]	Moon Metty:	hi Simon :)
[16:03]	Moon Metty:	well, i see Simon's nametag
[16:03]	Latif Khalifa:	Hey Simon, welcome back :)
[16:03]	Simon Linden:	wow, I really confused my viewer :)
[16:03]	reddot99 Republic:	hey simon, how was your trip?
[16:03]	Simon Linden:	there we go
[16:03]	Latif Khalifa:	Ugrade to SnowGlobe 1.5 :P
[16:03]	Simon Linden:	I started a TP during a region crossing, that was fun :)
[16:03]	reddot99 Republic:	lol
[16:03]	Moon Metty:	hehe
[16:03]	Morgaine Dinova:	Simon's hat comes first, to clear out enemies ;-)
[16:03]	Rex Cronon:	hello everybody
[16:03]	Latif Khalifa:	hey Rex
[16:04]	Morgaine Dinova:	Hiya Simon :-)
[16:04]	Morgaine Dinova:	Hi Rex :-)
[16:04]	Rex Cronon:	h latif, morgaine
[16:04]	Simon Linden:	Andrew's on the way
[16:04]	Thalissa Balehawk:	alguem fala portugues ?
[16:05]	Moon Metty:	hey Andrew :)
[16:05]	Latif Khalifa:	hey Andrew :)
[16:05]	Morgaine Dinova:	Hi Andrew :-)
[16:05]	Andrew Linden:	hello. Good thing Simon reminded me to show up
[16:05]	Moon Metty:	you must be busy
[16:05]	Rex Cronon:	hello andrew
[16:05]	reddot99 Republic:	quick question for you, any news on raycasting?
[16:05]	Andrew Linden:	i was busy tryping up some documentation on some math derivation I did this morning.
[16:06]	Morgaine Dinova:	Oooh, docs! :DD
[16:06]	Moon Metty:	for the linking rules?
[16:06]	Andrew Linden:	Heh. Er... I was commenting my octave (matlab) code.
[16:06]	Andrew Linden:	Yeah for linkability tests.
[16:06]	Moon Metty:	:) hi Oddprofessor
[16:07]	Oddprofessor Snoodle:	Hello Moon
[16:07]	Moon Metty:	nice to see you again
[16:07]	lonetorus Habilis:	hey andrew and simon
[16:07]	Oddprofessor Snoodle:	And everyone!
[16:07]	Oddprofessor Snoodle:	thanks!
[16:07]	reddot99 Republic:	matlab? you mean the program MatLab?
[16:07]	Rex Cronon:	hi
[16:07]	Oddprofessor Snoodle:	I have come with another petulent and strident demand for immediate action.
[16:07]	Oddprofessor Snoodle:	If you don't mind.
[16:07]	Morgaine Dinova:	* sci-mathematics/octave Latest version available: 3.2.4-r1
[16:07]	Morgaine Dinova:	Never used it though :P
[16:07]	Andrew Linden:	Ah Oddprofessor, welcome back. I was talking to one of our RIT graduates here at the lab, telling them I helped out some RIT profressor with a script project.
[16:07]	Oddprofessor Snoodle:	:-)
[16:08]	reddot99 Republic:	rit?
[16:08]	Oddprofessor Snoodle:	Yep, I'm having a lot of fun messing around with that script.
[16:08]	Oddprofessor Snoodle:	Yes, I teach physics at RIT.
[16:08]	Andrew Linden:	Rochester Institute of Technology
[16:08]	Oddprofessor Snoodle:	(Soon to be as well-known a TLA as MIT.)
[16:08]	reddot99 Republic:	oh hey, i had an offer to attend there, decided to stay in town though
[16:09]	Oddprofessor Snoodle:	Well, people are always doing unfathomable things.
[16:09]	Oddprofessor Snoodle:	㋡
[16:09]	reddot99 Republic:	didnt see an engineering program there :p
[16:09]	Oddprofessor Snoodle:	Didn't look hard enough!
[16:09]	Morgaine Dinova:	The Philosophy equivalent of RIT isn't doing so well
[16:09]	Andrew Linden:	Lets see... do I have any news? I have to pause to remember...
[16:09]	Oddprofessor Snoodle:	Sometimes they hide, though.
[16:10]	Ardy Lay:	Server RC channels
[16:11]	Andrew Linden:	I hope to actually finish the linkability work up early next week, now that I'm done with the math part (with unit tests).
[16:11]	lonetorus Habilis:	andrew, well, we could always talk about my inability to receive offline im's to my email, despite setting etc. ;)
[16:11]	reddot99 Republic:	can we have raycasting any time soon?
[16:11]	Andrew Linden:	Then I'll spend the next three weeks working more on region crossings, we've got a number of things to do there that should help.
[16:11]	Morgaine Dinova:	What framework drives the unit tests?
[16:12]	Andrew Linden:	Most of my pending work is still under test. I hope to get it on aditi next week.
[16:12]	Oddprofessor Snoodle:	I am curious about making java applets available in Shared Media.
[16:12]	Andrew Linden:	Morgain, we're using something called "tut" for our C++ tests.
[16:13]	Morgaine Dinova:	Was wondering whether there's some kind of framework that does regression testing each time you change somthing, since manual is so completely - -
[16:13]	reddot99 Republic:	i dont think you would be able to make java applets on the server
[16:13]	Andrew Linden:	Morgaine, these are "unit tests" that I've been writing.
[16:13]	Andrew Linden:	They run whenever there is a compile change.
[16:13]	Andrew Linden:	so they test very small units
[16:14]	Andrew Linden:	such as... adding two LLVector3's and making sure the result is what is expected.
[16:14]	Andrew Linden:	Each "unit test" covers very little ground.
[16:14]	Andrew Linden:	In this case I wrote some algorithms for computing the bounding sphere of a collection of points.
[16:14]	Morgaine Dinova:	That's cool. Test harnesses or frameworks can bring together unit tests into regression tests, but if the unit happens on every change, I guess that's the same.
[16:15]	Andrew Linden:	The unit tests make sure the algorithms continue to work should anyone make any changes.
[16:15]	Moon Metty:	yes
[16:15]	Morgaine Dinova:	/me nods
[16:15]	Andrew Linden:	Yes, we've been expanding our 'tut' unit tests for a year or more now
[16:16]	Andrew Linden:	and only one month ago I had the first unit test find a bug in code I was working on
[16:16]	reddot99 Republic:	andrew, what causes physloc?
[16:16]	reddot99 Republic:	lock
[16:16]	Simon Linden:	Oddprofessor -- I think java isn't possible on shared media (this is from a simple google search) but your best bet for something interesting is probably Flash, which will work
[16:16]	Andrew Linden:	I had failed to initialize a new class member in the 4th class constructor, which I hadn't noticed
[16:16]	Morgaine Dinova:	* dev-libs/tut Latest version available: 2009.08.30
[16:16]	Andrew Linden:	the unit tests caught the problem
[16:16]	Morgaine Dinova:	(Never used it)
[16:16]	Morgaine Dinova:	/me updates tut
[16:16]	Oddprofessor Snoodle:	Hm... Sadly, a product that I use produces very useful things that I use in my teaching.
[16:17]	Andrew Linden:	so I've seen evidence that they work -- once you have enough tests covering the code
[16:17]	Oddprofessor Snoodle:	think of something like physlets.
[16:17]	Oddprofessor Snoodle:	But much cooler.
[16:17]	Andrew Linden:	Oddprofessor, we don't know much about Shared Media.
[16:17]	Oddprofessor Snoodle:	But it uses java,
[16:17]	reddot99 Republic:	that'd be best discussed with veiwer folks
[16:17]	Andrew Linden:	If you want to ask questions about getting java apps to show up there you've come to the wrong office hours.
[16:17]	Oddprofessor Snoodle:	㋡
[16:17]	Morgaine Dinova:	/me chuckles
[16:17]	Oddprofessor Snoodle:	Maybe you can point me towards the right people?
[16:17]	Latif Khalifa:	It's a viewer thing
[16:18]	Jonathan Yap:	Maybe Oddprofessor would be better off asking in AW Groupies (he needs an invite)?
[16:18]	Andrew Linden:	Anybody know if LL holds office hours that would cover that subject?
[16:18]	reddot99 Republic:	what your thinking probably would require it to be run the web pages on the server
[16:18]	Andrew Linden:	Lemme ask the LL dev who might know...
[16:18]	Latif Khalifa:	Shared media in viewer2 does not support java
[16:18]	Oddprofessor Snoodle:	Yes, that's evident Latif.
[16:18]	Rex Cronon:	applets don't run server side
[16:18]	reddot99 Republic:	niether does the viewer browser
[16:18]	reddot99 Republic:	i'm saying it'd have to
[16:18]	Oddprofessor Snoodle:	I was hoping that there might be some future plans....
[16:18]	Simon Linden:	Correct REx, it's in the viewer like a browser
[16:19]	Latif Khalifa:	That's up to viewer team. Oddprofessor, I'd suggest you visit Esbee Linden's office hour and present your tought there, that way they might be inluded in the viewer¨
[16:19]	Andrew Linden:	The Shared Media team no longer holds office hours.
[16:20]	Oddprofessor Snoodle:	/me cries.
[16:20]	reddot99 Republic:	probably could schedule an appointment
[16:20]	Andrew Linden:	I'm asking an LL dev what the plans are for java support.
[16:20]	Latif Khalifa:	Esbee's is good for viewer features
[16:20]	Andrew Linden:	We'll see what he says.
[16:20]	Morgaine Dinova:	Samuel wasn't really a front-end community person, felt very uncomfortable with it. (Which is fine)
[16:21]	Latif Khalifa:	Her office hours are on Wednesdays at 8am SL time at http://maps.secondlife.com/secondlife/Hippotropolis/201/115/21
[16:21]	Andrew Linden:	yes, Samuel is the guy to ask. You can email him questions, perhaps he'll answer.
[16:22]	reddot99 Republic:	esbee does have office hours for snowstorm
[16:22]	Morgaine Dinova:	And they're very good too
[16:22]	Oddprofessor Snoodle:	Samuel L responded to one of my questions on the forums, told me to contact him, which I attempted to do. Never heard back, but people are busy.
[16:23]	lonetorus Habilis:	/me pokes andrew with a limp banana
[16:23]	Oddprofessor Snoodle:	Thanks, I'll see what I can turn up with those two contacts.
[16:23]	lonetorus Habilis:	did you ever look into why my offline ims dont go to my email?
[16:23]	reddot99 Republic:	http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Office_hours
[16:23]	Andrew Linden:	/me reads back. What was that bananna poke about?
[16:23]	Morgaine Dinova:	TUT updated. /me checks how to use it.
[16:23]	Oddprofessor Snoodle:	Have a good weekend!
[16:23]	Moon Metty:	you too Oddprof :)
[16:23]	lonetorus Habilis:	for over a year my ims dont go to email when im offline
[16:24]	lonetorus Habilis:	it works for other accounts and alts
[16:24]	Andrew Linden:	oh right, offline IM's failing. No I never did the investigation for that, unfortunately.
[16:24]	lonetorus Habilis:	and the client setting does nothing
[16:24]	Latif Khalifa:	Andrew has been "checking into it" for about half a year now ;)
[16:24]	lonetorus Habilis:	nor (web)dashboard setting
[16:24]	Andrew Linden:	yeah, that and a dozen other things
[16:24]	reddot99 Republic:	did you make sure the email for that account is correvt?
[16:24]	reddot99 Republic:	correct
[16:24]	lonetorus Habilis:	yes
[16:24]	lonetorus Habilis:	i receive all other sl related email on it
[16:24]	lonetorus Habilis:	(lots)
[16:24]	Jonathan Yap:	Have you tried sending them to a different email host?
[16:24]	Latif Khalifa:	reddot99 every possible setting and different email adresses have been checked
[16:25]	lonetorus Habilis:	its a gmail account
[16:25]	reddot99 Republic:	k,
[16:25]	Latif Khalifa:	its just this one account that does not send offline emails
[16:25]	lonetorus Habilis:	yeh
[16:25]	Morgaine Dinova:	In case anyone else is interesting in testing --- http://tut-framework.sourceforge.net/
[16:25]	Jonathan Yap:	And they do not fall into the spam filter?
[16:25]	Latif Khalifa:	Jon, we tried with his alt account it works fine with gmail
[16:25]	Andrew Linden:	lonetorus, I think I'd have to hijack your account on aditi to test and try to reproduce the problem
[16:25]	reddot99 Republic:	lo
[16:25]	Latif Khalifa:	just one acount seem to be blackholing it
[16:26]	lonetorus Habilis:	it stopped working around the time we had those user servers upgraded, just before the whole void sim debacle
[16:26]	lonetorus Habilis:	andrew, feel free
[16:26]	Jonathan Yap:	Latif, that was why I was asking if they were arriving but being filed as spam
[16:26]	Andrew Linden:	do offline IM's on aditi route to email? anybody know?
[16:26]	Jonathan Yap:	Just a thought :)
[16:26]	Latif Khalifa:	Andrew, no they don't
[16:26]	reddot99 Republic:	probably would have to enable it,
[16:26]	Andrew Linden:	well, the simulator certainly tries, I'm sure. The email routing is just disabled.
[16:26]	Jonathan Yap:	But you can send a snapshot to the dev mailing list
[16:27]	lonetorus Habilis:	how come i can be a member of 27 groups on aditi?
[16:27]	reddot99 Republic:	because if you leave groups here, it does update
[16:27]	reddot99 Republic:	doesnt
[16:27]	reddot99 Republic:	it only updates who joins
[16:27]	Latif Khalifa:	although some strangeness has been happening lately with aditi. people report offline group notices being recieved upon login on agni
[16:27]	lonetorus Habilis:	ahh
[16:27]	reddot99 Republic:	i've got 35 groups on aditi
[16:28]	Jonathan Yap:	reddot, that is a feature, not a bug, eh?
[16:28]	reddot99 Republic:	because they dont do full mirroring anymore
[16:28]	Moon Metty:	not for a long time now
[16:29]	Moon Metty:	Prospero did the last full update
[16:29]	reddot99 Republic:	i had talked to oscar linden about it, at least in passing, but yeah, thats what i was told
[16:29]	lonetorus Habilis:	heh, sent a email to oskar for a sync, got a RTFM reply ;) (so many new things after i have returned from my summer hiatus)
[16:29]	reddot99 Republic:	hey falcon
[16:29]	Moon Metty:	Falcon :)
[16:29]	Falcon Linden:	What's broken now? ;)
[16:29]	reddot99 Republic:	how goes land collision fixs?
[16:29]	Rex Cronon:	hi
[16:29]	reddot99 Republic:	35 groups on aditi, lol,
[16:30]	Falcon Linden:	I call it fixed. I haven't seen or worked on the bug, but I still call it fixed!
[16:30]	Falcon Linden:	:)
[16:30]	reddot99 Republic:	lol
[16:30]	Latif Khalifa:	Simo, Is tcmalloc producing any helpful clues why sims bloat after couple of days of uptime?
[16:30]	Andrew Linden:	no clues yet Latif.
[16:30]	reddot99 Republic:	oh, yeah, physics memory explodes in combat sims without restarts
[16:30]	Latif Khalifa:	Its pretty bad
[16:30]	Simon Linden:	No fix yet, Latif, but Andrew and I looked at the results from a previous beta office hours
[16:30]	Andrew Linden:	we're going to dig into tcmalloc some more next week
[16:30]	Falcon Linden:	reddot99: pffft. Physics memory never explodes!
[16:31]	Falcon Linden:	wait....nevermind. It explodes and crashes the sims.
[16:31]	reddot99 Republic:	30 megabytes to 50 someodd
[16:31]	Simon Linden:	We found some things to work on ... possibly flushing memory, and getting more data out of tcmalloc
[16:31]	Rex Cronon:	it has a meltdown?
[16:31]	Andrew Linden:	we need to update from 1.4 to 1.6, and add some stats measurement then try tcmalloc again.
[16:31]	reddot99 Republic:	on a homestead even
[16:31]	Falcon Linden:	By the way, somebody asked me a while back what the status of llCastRay was
[16:31]	Latif Khalifa:	Is visiting busy agni sims that really slowdown be an option?
[16:31]	reddot99 Republic:	was me
[16:31]	Falcon Linden:	The answer is: shelved until further notice, unfortunately.
[16:32]	lonetorus Habilis:	lots of nice documentation for it on the wiki, i thought it was in production already?
[16:32]	Falcon Linden:	If I can sneak it out in my free time and not get fired, though, I will.
[16:32]	Moon Metty:	:)
[16:32]	lonetorus Habilis:	please do XD
[16:32]	Rex Cronon:	u used it near a blackhole and it froze in time:)
[16:32]	lonetorus Habilis:	maybe you wont get fired, but raycast instead? ;)
[16:32]	reddot99 Republic:	falcon, make it used to fix a couple of other bugs :p
[16:32]	Falcon Linden:	Ionetorus: naah, it was on Aditi and still had a few bugs to be worked out when we decided to refocus on basic functionality
[16:33]	Falcon Linden:	Acch, bad pun. Bad!
[16:33]	Morgaine Dinova:	Oh, is "free time" an official slot, like the 20% own time in Google?
[16:33]	lonetorus Habilis:	sowwy
[16:33]	lonetorus Habilis:	XD
[16:33]	Falcon Linden:	Morgaine: No.
[16:33]	Morgaine Dinova:	kk
[16:33]	Andrew Linden:	Falcon, maybe we can ship it then enable it temporarily per-region for experimentation.
[16:33]	reddot99 Republic:	falcon, what about more flexible materials choices?
[16:34]	Latif Khalifa:	it's all about "fixing lag" these days
[16:34]	reddot99 Republic:	just make it return a empty list if its disabled in the sim?
[16:34]	Falcon Linden:	That is well under way, reddot99, because it was already well underway before any of this :)
[16:34]	Falcon Linden:	oh, right, now I remember the problem with cast ray
[16:34]	Latif Khalifa:	so who fixed most lag lately? :)
[16:35]	Falcon Linden:	we need to implement limits on it
[16:35]	Falcon Linden:	And those limits will likely be computation time based
[16:35]	Falcon Linden:	which means writing some code around that
[16:35]	reddot99 Republic:	limits, you mean more than the 4 per object?
[16:35]	Morgaine Dinova:	Well "FEF!" does have merit as an idea, as long as it doesn't exclude progress. Lag benefits no one.
[16:35]	Andrew Linden:	yeah, we don't want to add a new mode by which you can kill simulator performance
[16:35]	Falcon Linden:	yeah, we'll probably let you cast as much as you want, provided you use less than N microseconds of sim time
[16:36]	Falcon Linden:	Morgaine: Lag fighting is a huge part of FEF
[16:36]	Falcon Linden:	and we are actively working on it
[16:36]	Andrew Linden:	Remember, "Fun" is one of those letters. That includes progress in features.
[16:36]	Morgaine Dinova:	/me nods
[16:36]	lonetorus Habilis:	what do you guys think of the ~ console for sims, for estateowners to finetine their sim, as a way to get around slow UI feature additions?
[16:36]	reddot99 Republic:	most physics time is used to move small objects, if i remember
[16:36]	Andrew Linden:	However our team is focusing on "Fast" right now.
[16:36]	lonetorus Habilis:	finetune
[16:36]	reddot99 Republic:	or noticed, anyway,
[16:36]	Falcon Linden:	Ionet: That's the point of it
[16:36]	Falcon Linden:	reddot99: uh...it's kind of infinitely more complicated than that :)
[16:36]	Latif Khalifa:	I was hoping 1-42 was going to help with the sim freezes, but it didn't :(
[16:36]	Morgaine Dinova:	/me nods to both Andrew and Falcon :-)
[16:36]	Morgaine Dinova:	/me nods to everybody! :P
[16:37]	lonetorus Habilis:	Lonetorus (anagram of Tournesol, dont ask)
[16:37]	Moon Metty:	there's a slight change in sim-freezes
[16:37]	Falcon Linden:	sim freezes?
[16:37]	Falcon Linden:	which kind?
[16:37]	Falcon Linden:	:P
[16:37]	reddot99 Republic:	1.42 made it so that rez queues dont crash sims anymore
[16:37]	Falcon Linden:	right
[16:37]	Andrew Linden:	Lag spikes == "sim freezes", i think
[16:37]	Ardy Lay:	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-22835
[16:37]	Latif Khalifa:	Falcon, well sim freezes totally for up to 30 seconds
[16:37]	World map	OPEN and Zoomed Out causes Region Performance to Drop below normal
[16:37]	lonetorus Habilis:	so ppl could enable raycast for their own sim, that would be major cool
[16:37]	Moon Metty:	the distribution graph shows less freezes in the shortest, and more in the next category
[16:38]	Moon Metty:	but it has only run for 550 hours
[16:38]	Falcon Linden:	Lonet: It's not the release that's the issue, it's the dev time to set proper limits and fix the bugs.
[16:38]	Moon Metty:	that's not a lot of data
[16:38]	Moon Metty:	the 2nd category is from 0.7 to 1 second
[16:39]	Falcon Linden:	I think our next sim release, or the one after, will contain the option to use accurate, slow terrain physics or the current faster algorithm
[16:39]	Falcon Linden:	though it will only be settable if we release a viewer that supports the console...
[16:39]	Falcon Linden:	Or document it. That would be cool. Documenting it.
[16:39]	lonetorus Habilis:	lol
[16:39]	Moon Metty:	hehehe
[16:39]	lonetorus Habilis:	why slower method?
[16:39]	Falcon Linden:	*shrugs*
[16:39]	Falcon Linden:	It was there.
[16:39]	lonetorus Habilis:	i mean, usually ppl are already straining their sim to the max
[16:39]	Latif Khalifa:	Or make a web interface for estate owners so cool stuff could be confgured tehre without the need for viewer updates
[16:40]	Moon Metty:	yes, and a possibility to restart a sim for mainland owners
[16:40]	Falcon Linden:	that wouldn't be my area of work
[16:40]	Falcon Linden:	you'll be able to restart your region via the console
[16:40]	Jonathan Yap:	I heard yesterday the web group has a massive backlog
[16:40]	Falcon Linden:	'restart ' and 'restart cancel'
[16:41]	Moon Metty:	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/WEB-2778
[16:41]	LL needs	some fast-track way for mainland concierge customers to get a sim restart
[16:41]	reddot99 Republic:	wait, the console exists now? just doesnt have a veiwer part?
[16:41]	Falcon Linden:	reddot99: not deployed to agni or aditi
[16:41]	Moon Metty:	the new jira-helper is on the table, btw
[16:41]	Moon Metty:	you can grab a copy if all is well
[16:41]	reddot99 Republic:	but the code is sitting around?
[16:41]	Falcon Linden:	in a branch, pending unrelated fixes and a merge to trunk, yes
[16:41]	Latif Khalifa:	doesn't seem to be copy to all
[16:42]	lonetorus Habilis:	latif, i belive web projects are even more resource strained at ll, (afaik according to yoz)
[16:42]	Simon Linden:	Thanks Moon, I'll grab one
[16:42]	Andrew Linden:	/me migrated the viewer simconsole stuff to the Snowstorm paradigm today, but it is still sitting in an internal repository.
[16:42]	lonetorus Habilis:	like, 2012 strained
[16:42]	Andrew Linden:	The server-side simconsole work is in my maint-server repo, currently under test.
[16:42]	Latif Khalifa:	cannot take a copy
[16:42]	Moon Metty:	you can't get a copy Latif?
[16:42]	Moon Metty:	lol
[16:43]	Moon Metty:	hmmm
[16:43]	Simon Linden:	I can't either, odd...
[16:43]	Moon Metty:	it's full perm
[16:43]	reddot99 Republic:	you have to have all contents at allow anybody to copy now days
[16:43]	Jonathan Yap:	I can't either
[16:43]	Falcon Linden:	I want rigid body keyframing.
[16:43]	Moon Metty:	and set to anyone can copy
[16:43]	Morgaine Dinova:	Moving everything to web services is a good idea, but it's missing the point to then code all the client-side interfaces into a monolithic viewer.
[16:43]	Moon Metty:	i'll set it for sale
[16:43]	Latif Khalifa:	Moon, must be the contents beeing no copy, you need to set them too for copy to all
[16:43]	Moon Metty:	there
[16:43]	Falcon Linden:	morgaine: naah, see, that's not what's happening with this. The client side just posts whatever your command was to the simulator service.
[16:44]	Falcon Linden:	oh, and btw, I was thinking about what you said about using a real language for the console, etc.
[16:44]	Latif Khalifa:	"bought" it
[16:44]	Moon Metty:	all contents are copy, Latif
[16:44]	Latif Khalifa:	thanks
[16:44]	Andrew Linden:	I think a web wrapper could be witten for the simconsole stuff, as long as it can handle capabilities.
[16:44]	Falcon Linden:	And it really would have been the wrong choice to do so here. I'd still have had to do 99.9% of the work I did in order to integrate the language, plus other work to integrate the language libraries
[16:44]	lonetorus Habilis:	how does the client talk to the console (protocol?)
[16:45]	Falcon Linden:	HTTP POST
[16:45]	Morgaine Dinova:	Falcon: sure, but the messages neither need to be sent from the viewer nor the results displayed in the viewer. "Decoupled" is the most important word in engineering.
[16:45]	Latif Khalifa:	I'm sure I'll make one with libomv :)
[16:45]	Simon Linden:	I'd also think future viewers could add some functions via running the console under the hood
[16:45]	lonetorus Habilis:	well, thats pretty darn cool, can be done in lsl then too
[16:45]	Falcon Linden:	Morgaine: And that is the case here. The message can be sent from anything that supports capabilities
[16:45]	reddot99 Republic:	if you can login first, via lsl
[16:45]	Falcon Linden:	There is nothing in the console and no plans whatsoever to add any feature to the console that you'd want to script
[16:45]	Falcon Linden:	it is intended for sim configuration
[16:46]	reddot99 Republic:	lower or raise agent limits?
[16:46]	lonetorus Habilis:	so?, battle sims might want to adjust grey goo fence during gameplay
[16:46]	Falcon Linden:	reddot99: that's the kind of thing, yes, though the only features there now are restart and terrain swap
[16:46]	reddot99 Republic:	terrain swap would be nice if estate managers could use it as well
[16:47]	Falcon Linden:	estate managers can use anything estate owners can use in the console
[16:47]	reddot99 Republic:	the raw file stuff?
[16:47]	Falcon Linden:	terrain swap is readable/writeable by managers and gods only
[16:47]	Falcon Linden:	oh, no
[16:47]	Falcon Linden:	It's just terrain type
[16:47]	Falcon Linden:	there's no support for multiple files
[16:47]	reddot99 Republic:	then how do the raw terrain files work
[16:48]	Falcon Linden:	basically, when you guys first see this, it will be utterly useless.
[16:48]	Falcon Linden:	Just so we're clear about expectations :)
[16:48]	lonetorus Habilis:	reddot, as far as i know only available to estate owner
[16:48]	Morgaine Dinova:	Falcon: is the commandline handling already in the Snowstorm backlog somewhere?
[16:48]	Falcon Linden:	You'll be able to restart the sim and you'll be able to switch to a slower form of terrain simulation :P
[16:48]	lonetorus Habilis:	automated restarts XD
[16:48]	Falcon Linden:	Morgaine: The viewer code is written.
[16:48]	Falcon Linden:	It needs to be merged and QA'd.
[16:49]	reddot99 Republic:	asking for that, i know its owner only now, but its a pain in the ass if your renting from a 3rd party
[16:49]	Morgaine Dinova:	Oh joy, designed, written and QA's before it's even visible on the Snowstorm backlog. So much for intent.
[16:49]	Falcon Linden:	Morgaine: This was all done before that plan was written
[16:50]	Morgaine Dinova:	kk
[16:50]	Falcon Linden:	This work began in July
[16:50]	Falcon Linden:	and the viewer part was done in july, too, iirc
[16:50]	Morgaine Dinova:	Fair enough, the past is past
[16:50]	Ardy Lay:	Snowstorm is NOT the only team that does viewer work.
[16:50]	Latif Khalifa:	if you believe that the arrow of time cannot be turned around :P
[16:50]	reddot99 Republic:	i'd like a way to be able to edit terrain by image files and nicer editing tools
[16:51]	Morgaine Dinova:	Ardy: yeah, but that's the problem. As Oz says, other scrums buying into Philip's "openness" plan is at their discression.
[16:51]	Falcon Linden:	reddot99: I'd like a pony.
[16:51]	Andrew Linden:	Actually, we decided we needed the simconsole, so it is primarily an admin/test/dev tool
[16:51]	Andrew Linden:	but we expect it to be useful, so we'll probably eventually open it up to estate managers
[16:51]	Andrew Linden:	then more if that works out.
[16:52]	Falcon Linden:	Morgaine: I can tell you that the team andrew, simon, and I are on has just agreed yesterday that we'll be doing all our task-y stuff on pjira
[16:52]	lonetorus Habilis:	PONIES!!11
[16:52]	Latif Khalifa:	well there is only one jira now :)
[16:52]	Morgaine Dinova:	Oh, command line handling is going to be useful for an *immense* number of things. Which is why it would have been nice to have been designed openly, but can't change the past.
[16:52]	Falcon Linden:	point is, all public
[16:52]	reddot99 Republic:	sec jiras are still seprate, arent they?
[16:53]	Morgaine Dinova:	Falcon: woot!!! :D
[16:53]	Latif Khalifa:	Falcon, cool
[16:53]	Falcon Linden:	Morgaine: anything you would like it to be able to do, it will be able to do...if we feel like implementing it ;)
[16:53]	Latif Khalifa:	"engine room"?
[16:53]	Falcon Linden:	yes
[16:53]	lonetorus Habilis:	live top for resources
[16:53]	Moon Metty:	i want a telepathic UI
[16:53]	reddot99 Republic:	i see people wanting to turn gravity off
[16:53]	Falcon Linden:	Though I'm also on an undisclosed second team with an undisclosed jira name
[16:54]	Latif Khalifa:	lol
[16:54]	reddot99 Republic:	so much for undisclosed
[16:54]	Falcon Linden:	reddot99: thought of that. kinda tricky. Gravity is hard coded in places
[16:54]	Falcon Linden:	reddot99: Nope. It's undisclosed. I'm not disclosing it.
[16:54]	Falcon Linden:	It's my team of Merry Men.
[16:54]	lonetorus Habilis:	well, i still want propper gravity for large prim objects, like that game, "prey"
[16:54]	Falcon Linden:	or...
[16:54]	Falcon Linden:	my Knights!
[16:54]	Latif Khalifa:	what's the jira label for your team?
[16:54]	Falcon Linden:	The Knights of my Rectangular Table
[16:54]	Falcon Linden:	Latif: I don't know. See? Undisclosed.
[16:54]	reddot99 Republic:	you disclosed the existance of it, lol
[16:54]	Latif Khalifa:	ENGINE- ?
[16:55]	Jonathan Yap:	I think he was asking about the public team's name?
[16:55]	Andrew Linden:	Sigh... as of yet unannounced. Not very public Falcon. I thought that project was going public.
[16:55]	Falcon Linden:	Lonet: Part of the physics materials will include per-linkset gravity
[16:55]	Morgaine Dinova:	Falcon: indeed, you determine what commands SL responds to, or course. :-) But note that when viewers are used in other worlds, it's those worlds that control the messages theyt respond to, not LL.
[16:55]	Falcon Linden:	Andrew: Going. Not gone.
[16:55]	Falcon Linden:	Morgaine: You have to realize that this protocol consists of--get this--sending a line of text via POST and receiving a response string.
[16:55]	Latif Khalifa:	Oz has been dropping hints for aweek now, that major new content feature is about to go to beta, how hard is it to guess? :)
[16:55]	reddot99 Republic:	by hard coded, you mean the 9.81 meters per second squared?
[16:55]	Falcon Linden:	It's really not that big a deal :)
[16:56]	Morgaine Dinova:	hehe, kk |:-)
[16:56]	Falcon Linden:	reddot99 something like that
[16:56]	lonetorus Habilis:	bird linden, but will i be able to stick my av to the underside of a megaprim and walk around?
[16:56]	Falcon Linden:	no, but you will be able to climb nearly vertical surfaces
[16:56]	Falcon Linden:	not fully vertical
[16:56]	Falcon Linden:	just nearly
[16:56]	Falcon Linden:	(max friction coefficient = 255)
[16:56]	lonetorus Habilis:	we can do so already
[16:56]	Rex Cronon:	spiderman:)
[16:57]	Falcon Linden:	and make vehicles that don't behave like moon buggies!
[16:57]	lonetorus Habilis:	that i welcome :D
[16:57]	Falcon Linden:	and have more than 32 prims (though not more than 32 physical prims)
[16:57]	Morgaine Dinova:	Doh, you're gonna break lunar sims? :DDD
[16:57]	Moon Metty:	yes, that's nice
[16:57]	Falcon Linden:	Morgaine: Totally. I'm gonna break every sim.
[16:57]	Moon Metty:	simple colision shapes
[16:57]	reddot99 Republic:	no plans for joints in there, though, sadly?
[16:57]	Falcon Linden:	if only...
[16:58]	Latif Khalifa:	Falcon, what do you mean "going to"? :P
[16:58]	Falcon Linden:	I put client side physics before joints.
[16:58]	Falcon Linden:	Latif: PFFFFT!
[16:58]	Morgaine Dinova:	Real gravity control would be great
[16:58]	Falcon Linden:	Real gravity control won't work with havok
[16:58]	Falcon Linden:	well
[16:58]	Falcon Linden:	sort of
[16:58]	reddot99 Republic:	how would it not?
[16:58]	Falcon Linden:	you could set any gravity vector you like with havok
[16:58]	Falcon Linden:	but, for example, /real/ gravity (GMm/r toward the center of mass) would not
[16:59]	Morgaine Dinova:	Ah right, there's just up/down
[16:59]	reddot99 Republic:	well, that'd be insane computation why,
[16:59]	reddot99 Republic:	wise
[16:59]	Falcon Linden:	Gravity fields with non-zero divergence aren't stable under some solvers.
[16:59]	Falcon Linden:	red: yeah, and not really fun either
[16:59]	Morgaine Dinova:	Up/down would be fine for non-space applications, as long as you can set the magnitide of the vector
[17:00]	Falcon Linden:	well, you could even do space by setting grav to 0
[17:00]	Falcon Linden:	but the viewer would ruin it all
[17:00]	Falcon Linden:	because the viewer assumes gravity.
[17:00]	lonetorus Habilis:	seems to run pretty smooth here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zgqq7YdE5w4
[17:01]	Moon Metty:	sure, blame it on the viewer ..
[17:01]	reddot99 Republic:	ah, because avatars are always upright?
[17:01]	lonetorus Habilis:	well, could always make it point feet towards closes/strongest gravity center
[17:01]	Falcon Linden:	Lonet: Yeah, that's cool. It doesn't work how you think, though, I suspect :)
[17:02]	reddot99 Republic:	its the "avatar rotation magic" andrew mentioned one time
[17:02]	reddot99 Republic:	i bet
[17:02]	lonetorus Habilis:	probably some zones you pass, and it will flip the player
[17:02]	reddot99 Republic:	am i close?
[17:03]	lonetorus Habilis:	but that could be a prim "phys material"
[17:03]	Andrew Linden:	huh, I have to update my flash player it seems.
[17:03]	lonetorus Habilis:	yeah, it gets haxed every other sunday
[17:03]	Jonathan Yap:	Instead of adjusting gravity, how about adding magnetism?
[17:03]	Morgaine Dinova:	Nice video. Best watched on an empty stomach :-)
[17:03]	Moon Metty:	oh, i used to have that problem Andrew, yuotube not playing ... try watching via a proxy
[17:04]	lonetorus Habilis:	im not asking for the full on physics calculation, proximations and tricks that give same result are fine too ;)
[17:04]	lonetorus Habilis:	+ pony
[17:04]	reddot99 Republic:	lone, the issue is that the avatar rotations are set in stone, so to speak, you cant change the avatars up or down
[17:05]	reddot99 Republic:	probably would be a nice hack to change the 'veiwer wind' varible to actually being gravity
[17:05]	Morgaine Dinova:	Should be just a current matrix for the av
[17:05]	Falcon Linden:	The problem, folks, with adding a lot of the really cool features you see in stuff like that, is how the heck do you provide a UI for it?
[17:05]	Jonathan Yap:	Or be able to let prims attract each other
[17:05]	Moon Metty:	a telepathic UI would solve everything ....
[17:05]	reddot99 Republic:	command line?
[17:06]	Falcon Linden:	Anything Yap is describing would be possible, but UI?
[17:06]	Falcon Linden:	Tools?
[17:06]	Falcon Linden:	Each thing would have to be hand crafted.
[17:06]	Falcon Linden:	Nightmare.
[17:06]	Morgaine Dinova:	Falcon: strongly recommend you leave the UI to the community ^_^ <grin>
[17:06]	lonetorus Habilis:	use prims
[17:06]	lonetorus Habilis:	like lights
[17:06]	Falcon Linden:	Morgaine: Okay, let me rephrase: How do you create the public facing API
[17:06]	Latif Khalifa:	just make llDoWhatIWant() and be done with it ;)
[17:06]	Falcon Linden:	it would be its own scripting language
[17:06]	Simon Linden:	I have to run ... thanks everyone for coming
[17:06]	Simon Linden:	See you next time
[17:06]	Falcon Linden:	Later Simon
[17:06]	Latif Khalifa:	take care simon :)
[17:06]	Morgaine Dinova:	Falcon: ah, now that is a very good question
[17:06]	lonetorus Habilis:	see ya simon
[17:06]	Latif Khalifa:	have a nice weekend
[17:06]	Moon Metty:	have a good weekend Simon :)
[17:06]	Rex Cronon:	tc simon
[17:06]	Simon Linden:	have a great weekend
[17:06]	Morgaine Dinova:	Cyu Simon :-)
[17:07]	Falcon Linden:	If and when LSL becomes fast enough, we COULD imagine allowing you to write callback code for objects
[17:07]	reddot99 Republic:	almost would say something like lsl, because thats familar already,
[17:07]	Moon Metty:	and how about this: we already have syntax highlighting, why not have bug-highlighting?
[17:07]	Falcon Linden:	but LSL is way, way WAY too slow
[17:07]	Moon Metty:	it saves time debugging
[17:07]	Latif Khalifa:	and c# got canned :(
[17:07]	Falcon Linden:	Moon: Because your whole script would be highlighted that way :P
[17:07]	reddot99 Republic:	it got canned?
[17:07]	Moon Metty:	ah, good point Falcon :)
[17:08]	lonetorus Habilis:	why would it need its own user accessible script ?
[17:08]	Latif Khalifa:	reddot they killed it
[17:08]	Falcon Linden:	because you want a general way of specifying object interactions
[17:08]	reddot99 Republic:	to set parameters, lone
[17:08]	Jonathan Yap:	Babbage and crew were working on C#
[17:08]	Falcon Linden:	you want things like: If an object is in this area, alter it in this way. Every frame.
[17:08]	lonetorus Habilis:	but cant we set paramaters just like the existing things like lights, flex etc in build tool
[17:08]	Falcon Linden:	If 4 objects are in this area, alter all of them in this other way. At the same time. Every frame.
[17:09]	Falcon Linden:	Lonet: For what, though? Each feature would have its own set of parameters
[17:09]	Falcon Linden:	if there were a single specific feature, sure
[17:09]	lonetorus Habilis:	well, for ponies of course, duh
[17:09]	Falcon Linden:	but what you really want is full control of Havok
[17:09]	lonetorus Habilis:	yeah, i suppose
[17:09]	lonetorus Habilis:	but i would be happy with a limited subset too
[17:09]	reddot99 Republic:	the havok team would have to code it for you then, i assume
[17:09]	Falcon Linden:	You have a limited subset :)
[17:10]	Falcon Linden:	reddot99: I am the Havok team.
[17:10]	Falcon Linden:	:)
[17:10]	lonetorus Habilis:	not quite as limited, still missing the pony
[17:10]	reddot99 Republic:	i mean, the people who made havok
[17:10]	Falcon Linden:	I made Havok.
[17:10]	Falcon Linden:	Okay, that's a lie.
[17:10]	reddot99 Republic:	lol
[17:10]	Falcon Linden:	But I did work for them.
[17:10]	reddot99 Republic:	causing havok and making the havok engine are two completely different things falcon, lol
[17:10]	lonetorus Habilis:	/me hopes he was not the picolo
[17:11]	Falcon Linden:	Anything outside of their core simulation code (constraint solving, integration, collision detection), I can do.
[17:11]	Latif Khalifa:	lol
[17:11]	Falcon Linden:	Thing is, there's only one of me :)
[17:11]	Morgaine Dinova:	It's great having just one person to blame for physics ^_^
[17:11]	Falcon Linden:	which, of course, is why there are any regions still running at all. If there were more of me, there'd be none!
[17:11]	Latif Khalifa:	yeah we need about 50%
[17:11]	Andrew Linden:	Sigh... these feature wishful dreaming sessions are useful, but also tend to stress me out. Here I am trying to get a maint-server with the fix for SVC-129 out the door, for the last week.
[17:11]
[17:11]	ROTATION and	PRIM_LOCAL_POSITION to complement llGetLocalRot() and llGetLocalPos()
[17:11]	reddot99 Republic:	lol
[17:11]	lonetorus Habilis:	we need to work on cloning falcon first then
[17:11]	lonetorus Habilis:	highest priority
[17:12]	reddot99 Republic:	we'd lose regions like that
[17:12]	Andrew Linden:	I'm going to depart. Have a good weekend everyone.
[17:12]	Moon Metty:	:)
[17:12]	reddot99 Republic:	see ya andrew
[17:12]	Falcon Linden:	I'm going to cause andrew more stress
[17:12]	Moon Metty:	see you next week Andrew :)
[17:12]	Falcon Linden:	Cheers folks :)
[17:12]	Morgaine Dinova:	Take care Andrew, enjoy weekend :-)
[17:12]	Latif Khalifa:	take care adrew, have fun
[17:12]	reddot99 Republic:	lol
[17:12]	Ardy Lay:	See you later Andrew
[17:12]	Falcon Linden:	See you in 5 seconds, Andrew
[17:12]	Falcon Linden:	:P
[17:12]	Moon Metty:	heehee
[17:12]	Morgaine Dinova:	Cyu Falcon :-)
[17:12]	Panel 3:	Freeze of 0.524395s detected (Mono)
[17:12]	Panel 3:	Freeze of 0.525752s detected (LSO)
[17:12]	Latif Khalifa:	see you falcon :)
[17:12]	Rex Cronon:	tc andrew
[17:12]	Rex Cronon:	tc falcon

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