User:Babbage Linden/Office Hours/2009 01 14

Transcript of Babbage Linden's office hours:

[7:58]	Imaze Rhiano:	hi wolf
[7:58]	Nock Forager:	hello everybody
[7:58]	WolfPup Lowenhar:	hello
[7:58]	Siann Beck:	Aloha.
[7:58]	Imaze Rhiano:	hi :)
[8:01]	Fake Fitzgerald:	hello there
[8:01]	Siann Beck:	Hello Fake
[8:01]	Nock Forager:	Hi
[8:01]	Imaze Rhiano:	hi
[8:02]	Babbage Linden:	hi everyone
[8:02]	Siann Beck:	Hi Baggage!
[8:02]	Imaze Rhiano:	hi
[8:02]	Fake Fitzgerald:	hi Babbage
[8:02]	Siann Beck:	Doh!
[8:02]	Siann Beck:	*Babbage!
[8:02]	Babbage Linden:	thanks for coming again
[8:02]	WolfPup Lowenhar:	morning babbage
[8:02]	Siann Beck:	Gah I can't believe I did that!
[8:02]	Babbage Linden:	let me ping the groups
[8:03]	Babbage Linden:	what would you like to talk about today?
[8:04]	Imaze Rhiano:	how are memory usage metrics coming up? any numbers yet?
[8:04]	Babbage Linden:	the script usage code is in 1.25
[8:04]	Babbage Linden:	which will hopefully be going out this week
[8:04]	Babbage Linden:	(finally)
[8:05]	Babbage Linden:	so once that's across the grid we'll start analysing the results
[8:06]	Babbage Linden:	the biggest scripting development this week has been http-in passing its sandbox QAR
[8:06]	Babbage Linden:	so that's on course for 1.26
[8:06]	Siann Beck:	Cool!
[8:06]	WolfPup Lowenhar:	that is good
[8:06]	Babbage Linden:	it's in the merge queue now
[8:06]	Siann Beck:	That's going to be so nice.
[8:06]	Lyn Mimistrobell:	is that to replace rpc?
[8:06]	Babbage Linden:	yes
[8:06]	Babbage Linden:	it's more scalable
[8:07]	Lyn Mimistrobell:	great
[8:07]	Babbage Linden:	and allows 2 way http communications
[8:07]	Babbage Linden:	instead of having to use http out plus xml or email in
[8:07]	Lyn Mimistrobell smiles
[8:08]	Babbage Linden:	in blighty we're mostly going to be working on scalability and networking issues for the next couple of quarters
[8:08]	Babbage Linden:	but i'm hoping to get to work on give money with confirmation and c# once we have the L$ API done and mono has a metadata verifier
[8:09]	Babbage Linden:	we're just finishing off our first iteration of the space server work
[8:09]	Siann Beck:	Also excellent.
[8:09]	Lyn Mimistrobell:	L$ api will also allow a script to check funds?
[8:09]	Babbage Linden:	so should be able to get to work on some mono maintenance tasks over the next couple of weeks
[8:09]	Babbage Linden:	we'd like to see where we are with 1.25 which has some fixes in
[8:10]	Babbage Linden:	the L$ API is an internal web service for money transactions
[8:10]	Lyn Mimistrobell:	ah ok
[8:10]	Babbage Linden:	that will take all of that load of the central database
[8:10]	Babbage Linden:	and use a separate back end for money transfers
[8:11]	Babbage Linden:	once it provides more reliability and feedback than the current system, we can switch LSL to use that
[8:11]	Babbage Linden:	which will let us return results to scripts more easily
[8:11]	WolfPup Lowenhar:	speaking of the central data bace i saw in the SL blog that the main DB is getting revamped
[8:12]	Babbage Linden:	there's lots of work on the central database happening
[8:12]	Babbage Linden:	both to make our current use of it more efficient
[8:12]	Babbage Linden:	and to break pieces like L$ transactions and region presence information in to independent, separate databases
[8:13]	Neroelite Braun:	Are all void sims being removed babbage?
[8:13]	Neroelite Braun:	speaking of smooth sim transition
[8:13]	Babbage Linden:	not sure about void sims, you'll need to talk to jack
[8:13]	Neroelite Braun:	whens his office hours XD
[8:13]	Babbage Linden:	i've only been involved in the land changes as far as sim limits go
[8:13]	Neroelite Braun:	I see
[8:13]	Ethan Schuman:	That brings up a question which I will save for later.
[8:14]	Neroelite Braun:	Its funny I come up with all these questions and as soon as office hour starts I can't remember XD
[8:14]	Lyn Mimistrobell:	psst Nero: notecards...
[8:14]	Neroelite Braun:	lol yeah
[8:14]	Siann Beck:	Any chance we could get https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-1401 in there somewhere?
[8:14]	Babbage Linden:	let me look
[8:15]	Arawn Spitteler hopes he remembers to ask about special viewer requirements ofr HTTP_In, and about documentation of things too simple for the experienced: I recentlyl discovered, I don't know HTTP from HTML
[8:15]	WolfPup Lowenhar:	i have a queston is there any group of people that are mainly working on trying to duplicate isses with the rc viewers?
[8:15]	Arawn Spitteler:	Coral's Place, in Longfellow,l has the application forms.
[8:15]	Neroelite Braun:	Babbage. I know there is a JIRA somewhere for it. But I was hoping that maybe in the future we could get a reall llDetectedGroup that returns a key. It would be very convenient when it comes to things such as security.
[8:16]	Arawn Spitteler:	I can't join, because I haven't a supported Graphics Card.
[8:16]	Nock Forager:	trying dupe, lol
[8:16]	Neroelite Braun:	Because the current only allows the group that the item is in.
[8:16]	Lyn Mimistrobell:	a llDetect function that will work if a user is IN the group not necessarily activated it
[8:16]	Neroelite Braun:	which has the same result as llSame Group
[8:16]	Neroelite Braun:	Yeah but what if I want a door or an item that works for multiple groups not just one
[8:17]	Arawn Spitteler:	It should be possible to detect if a SLURL is amongst Picks, but I don't know how that data is organized.
[8:17]	Neroelite Braun:	I have to have an item for each group I want allowed
[8:17]	Babbage Linden:	siann, we don't have plans for a syntax check button, but it's a client side feature, so we'd probably accept a patch for it
[8:17]	Ethan Schuman:	Use a multigroup server aray, Nero.
[8:17]	Neroelite Braun:	I do
[8:17]	Lyn Mimistrobell:	yes Nero, that too would be a good improvement
[8:17]	Neroelite Braun:	I'd prefer to have just one script for it all though
[8:17]	Neroelite Braun:	not to mention it would cut down on prims and script times.
[8:17]	Lyn Mimistrobell:	would make maintenance easier
[8:17]	Neroelite Braun:	its so excessive having servers
[8:18]	Neroelite Braun:	And I"m sure there ARE group keys right? jsut like every other item in sl
[8:18]	Arawn Spitteler:	It doesn't belong on a server, but there must have been a security consideration, in regulating what groups a prim could detect.
[8:18]	Lyn Mimistrobell:	yes
[8:18]	Lyn Mimistrobell:	everything has a UUID, groups too
[8:18]	Babbage Linden:	i haven't worked with groups, so i'm not sure how hard that would be
[8:19]	Babbage Linden:	have you opened a jira for it?
[8:19]	Ethan Schuman:	Yes, Nero. If you want, later, I'll give you an authentication algorithm.
[8:19]	Neroelite Braun:	yeah theres no progress on it at all
[8:19]	Babbage Linden:	i've noticed that group owned land can cause problems with the group query functions
[8:19]	Arawn Spitteler:	What's the Jira, so I can vote?
[8:19]	Siann Beck:	There are several, I believe, dealing with varios aspects of the issue.
[8:19]	Babbage Linden:	land query functions, sorry
[8:19]	Neroelite Braun:	just people arguing and I can't understand what teh down fall is. It jsut allows discrimination of groups you can't hack them or anything
[8:20]	Neroelite Braun:	there aren't any group related scripting events anyways
[8:20]	Babbage Linden:	wolfpup, yes there are lots of people working on the viewer rc issues
[8:20]	Babbage Linden is trying to catch up with questions
[8:20]	WolfPup Lowenhar:	ok was just wondering because i have a jira in a mis clicking issue
[8:20]	Siann Beck:	I'd say all-in-all, groups are one area that need the most attention and have the highest demand for it.
[8:21]	Neroelite Braun:	I suppose that if you came up with group related scripting people wouldn't need bots.
[8:21]	Siann Beck:	The JJira to raise the number of groups has the most votes, except one to try to stop the open sims transition
[8:21]	Neroelite Braun:	well maybe not. NOT need. but thats one of the major uses is to have them let people jkoin groups
[8:22]	Babbage Linden:	kelly and don did most of the work on groups, so they're the people to ask
[8:22]	WolfPup Lowenhar:	had worked with Ramzi Linden on it for a few minutes befor i had to goto RL work but it seems at the time they were there they were unable to reproduce the issue
[8:23]	Neroelite Braun:	the thing is is that Lindens are hard to get ahold of. Is there any kind of schedule for office hours of lindens
[8:23]	Ethan Schuman:	Yes, Nero. There's a page on the Wiki with Linden office hours.
[8:23]	Arawn Spitteler'd like scripts to attend group IMs: Documentation on how the p[rofiles are organized, would allow me to see if groups are acessible through that channel.
[8:23]	Neroelite Braun:	okay
[8:24]	Arawn Spitteler:	http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Office_Hours
[8:24]	Siann Beck:	http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Office_Hours
[8:24]	Siann Beck:	Beat me to it!
[8:24]	Neroelite Braun:	kelly and don don't have office hours :X
[8:24]	Ethan Schuman:	Check their profiles then.
[8:24]	Babbage Linden:	i'll point them to the office hour chat log when it's up
[8:24]	Arawn Spitteler's about as laggy as Siann
[8:26]	Ethan Schuman:	I have a question I'd like to bring up. Is there any chance of us getting a feature that allows us to change an avatar's physical orientation, preferably through an attachment?
[8:26]	Neroelite Braun:	Hey babbage I'm a rl chef looking for work. Do you need apersonal chef?
[8:26]	Ethan Schuman:	It would REALLY help us with our progress on VerticalSim.
[8:27]	WolfPup Lowenhar:	babbage do you know if there are office hours for the RC viewers?
[8:27]	Babbage Linden:	the only way to change rotation i know of is to use sitting and then changing the rotation of the end links
[8:27]	Arawn Spitteler:	Rotation? I think that was blocked, because of abuse pottenital. Abusiphobia is one of the greates sources of Griefing, in SL. It might be possible, to create a pseudowalk vehicle, to go wall-climbing
[8:27]	Arawn Spitteler:	Try CG, WolfPup
[8:28]	Ethan Schuman:	Yes. That's how it is currently. However, a friend of mine and I are working on a project to basically tip a sim onto its side and use the Z axis as the X.
[8:28]	Arawn Spitteler:	After this hour, look up CG at http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Office_Hours and go there.
[8:28]	Arawn Spitteler:	A vehicle is what ou're loooking for.
[8:28]	Ethan Schuman:	At this time, we currently use a hacked up vehicle to accomplish the simulation effect, but the ability to naturally rotate an avatar would be much more practical.
[8:29]	Babbage Linden:	find or add a jira ethan
[8:29]	Neroelite Braun:	how about this babbage. When it comes to sitting can we get fullr ange of view. Because when I make planes and such. I can'tlook down to point the ship down
[8:29]	Babbage Linden:	it's unlikely to be prioritised above give money improvements though
[8:29]	Neroelite Braun:	maybe thats not your area
[8:30]	Arawn Spitteler:	It would also be good for Hugs, which are a major market, in SL, but it would also allow SpinTheNoob HUDs
[8:30]	Neroelite Braun:	but the restricted view of someone whos sitting is irritating
[8:30]	Neroelite Braun:	its not important
[8:30]	Arawn Spitteler:	Restricted?
[8:30]	Ethan Schuman:	We'll have to do that, then, I suppose. We were working with Sidewinder until he left LL, so it's kind of like starting again from scratch, hah.
[8:30]	Neroelite Braun:	yeah you can't look down as far as when you are stading thus on a vehicle that points where ver the AV is looking, it can't look down all the way
[8:31]	Arawn Spitteler wonders if something can be done with Camera Controls
[8:31]	Neroelite Braun:	Alright kids. I'm out thanks for your time babbage
[8:31]	WolfPup Lowenhar:	i know i use camera controls a lot
[8:32]	Babbage Linden:	np, thanks for coming
[8:32]	Ethan Schuman:	No, Arawn. I know what he's talking about. It's an innate feature in the vehi... well, he's gone.
[8:32]	Lamorna Proctor:	Hello Babbage. Sorry I'm late. I've been meaning to attend your meetings for some time, but Wednesday are not a good day for me RL
[8:33]	Arawn Spitteler'd like to look at the verticle sim, later: A study of how much viewer and server control camera, might be worth while.
[8:33]	Ethan Schuman:	Surely, Arawn. I'll take you by after we're done here.
[8:33]	Arawn Spitteler just got here, himkself: Better late than never, but Tardy is making an entrance.
[8:34]	Arawn Spitteler still wants issue, of How to tell GET from PUT or Http from HTML
[8:34]	Lyn Mimistrobell:	HTML is a document format, HTTP is a protocol...
[8:35]	Lyn Mimistrobell:	:P
[8:35]	Arawn Spitteler:	Yeah, I'm trying to script a profile reader, and am lost.
[8:35]	Babbage Linden:	the method is passed to the http_request event as a string
[8:35]	Lamorna Proctor:	It should be a simple HTTP request
[8:35]	Ethan Schuman:	orient.2
[8:36]	Lyn Mimistrobell:	you won't use PUT tho... GET or POST
[8:36]	Lyn Mimistrobell:	in your case, GET should do it
[8:36]	Arawn Spitteler:	Where's the Hysterical Record?
[8:36]	Lamorna Proctor:	If you send multiple concurrent llHTTPRequest calls, you will have to keep track of the key of each request in a list
[8:36]	Soundless Smalls:	hi all, srry I'm late
[8:36]	Babbage Linden:	yes, PUT doesn't make sense with http-in as you can't specify URLs
[8:37]	Babbage Linden:	(POST to a constructor resource works though, and is a better pattern to use with RESTful APIs anyway)
[8:37]	Arawn Spitteler:	The Wiki for this stuff, should have a link for what Methods are.
[8:37]	Lyn Mimistrobell:	What historical (I assume you mean that) data do you mean?
[8:38]	Arawn Spitteler:	When my mother was programming, the only documentation was in the Historical Records, pronounced Hysterical
[8:38]	Babbage Linden:	ok, any more questions or are we done?
[8:39]	Siann Beck:	Any idea when 1.26 will come down the line?
[8:39]	Ethan Schuman:	Babbage, I'm going to be taking Arawn to VerticalSim. Would you like to come have a look as well? It's kind of cool.
[8:39]	Lyn Mimistrobell:	Any idea what kind of scripting restrictions LL is thinking about for homestead? Would it be limited functionality or limited performance?
[8:39]	Siann Beck:	Or is it too early to even guess?
[8:39]	Lamorna Proctor:	no questions from me
[8:39]	Arawn Spitteler thinks 1.26 will be working brfore 1.25: Is there a special viewer, for HTP_In?
[8:39]	Babbage Linden:	siann, 1.26 is looking like being end of the quarter at the moment
[8:39]	Siann Beck:	No, it's all server-side, Awawn.
[8:40]	Siann Beck:	OK
[8:40]	Arawn Spitteler:	Keywords GET and PUT weren't highlighting.
[8:40]	Imaze Rhiano:	preview grid did have place to test http-in - still there?
[8:40]	Babbage Linden:	lyn, scripting restrictions will be on number of scripts per m2 initially
[8:40]	Arawn Spitteler:	Closed on Monday.
[8:40]	Lyn Mimistrobell:	okay
[8:40]	Babbage Linden:	and avatars will have a script pool for attachments too
[8:41]	Babbage Linden:	check http-in for details of how it will work
[8:41]	Babbage Linden:	it's likely to work in the same way that http-in public URL restrictions work
[8:41]	Maldoror Bowman:	Is that documented now?
[8:42]	Babbage Linden:	it should be
[8:43]	Lyn Mimistrobell:	Any news on reg exp? https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-790
[8:43]	Babbage Linden:	start here http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Http_request
[8:43]	Babbage Linden:	lyn, not that I know of
[8:43]	WolfPup Lowenhar:	babbage what is the easiest way to record an isseu in the viewers or capture the data to add to jira's?
[8:43]	Babbage Linden:	wolfpup, help about gives a lot of useful data
[8:43]	Siann Beck:	Is http-in still going to allow multiple URLs per prim? I've been asking for a use case for it, as I can't think of one except griefing.
[8:44]	Arawn Spitteler's recently learned to use <ctrl><print Screen>
[8:44]	Siann Beck:	No one I've asked can think of one.
[8:44]	Babbage Linden:	plus as much information as you can add on how to reproduce the issue
[8:44]	Babbage Linden:	siann, yes
[8:44]	Babbage Linden:	a use case is to provide a capability system in a single script
[8:44]	Babbage Linden:	for example, you have a script listen on a public channel
[8:45]	WolfPup Lowenhar:	im wanting to help get the data for this jira http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-11401 to mabey help the people working on it more information
[8:45]	Babbage Linden:	other scripts ask it for a capability
[8:45]	Babbage Linden:	if they're allowed a new URI can be generated for that client
[8:46]	Babbage Linden:	so you can do the same secure communications between scripts that we use for second life communications
[8:46]	Arawn Spitteler takes a moment to distinguish Server Side Clients from Client Side Clients.
[8:46]	Siann Beck:	I see, so a script would give out different URLs to different requestors.
[8:47]	Babbage Linden:	yes
[8:47]	Siann Beck:	But why couldn't that be done with a single URL, and some kind of key?
[8:47]	Siann Beck:	I just see it being abused, with someone writing a script to grab all the URLs for a region.
[8:47]	Arawn Spitteler:	It would grab for a parcel
[8:48]	Babbage Linden:	having a single URL per script doesn't really help when you can have multiple scripts
[8:48]	Babbage Linden:	and we didn't want people to have to use multiple scripts in order to get multiple URLs
[8:48]	Lamorna Proctor:	would it be possible to limit the URL's per object owner in a region?
[8:48]	Babbage Linden:	but yes, often you can just build sub trees
[8:49]	Imaze Rhiano:	here is documentation for http-in: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/LSL_http_server
[8:49]	Babbage Linden:	not currently lamorna
[8:49]	Babbage Linden:	that would create more configuration than we have for prims
[8:49]	Soundless Smalls:	thnx imaze
[8:49]	Siann Beck:	I guess we'll se how it goes in operation.
[8:49]	Babbage Linden:	we wanted to model the prim design
[8:50]	Babbage Linden:	instead of having multiple rationing schemes
[8:50]	Linegirl McMillan:	How are IMs and group chat organized? Is it related to your work on taking load of the central database and making script communicate? I have had group chat lag recently
[8:50]	Lyn Mimistrobell:	I gotta go - ty for your time Babbage
[8:50]	Lamorna Proctor:	I've been thinking of use cases, but most of them fall down because of the fact that the URL doesn't persist
[8:51]	Babbage Linden:	linegirl, IMs and group chat don't use the database
[8:51]	Linegirl McMillan:	thank you
[8:51]	Babbage Linden:	but are another hard problem to scale
[8:51]	Babbage Linden:	there are people thinking about it
[8:51]	Babbage Linden:	looking at technologies like jabber for scaling
[8:52]	Babbage Linden:	but i don't know how far along that work is
[8:52]	Nock Forager:	interesting. hope we can use that protcol from outside sl too.
[8:52]	Linegirl McMillan:	would be interesting
[8:52]	Arawn Spitteler:	SLim doesn't seem to have office hours.
[8:54]	Lamorna Proctor:	i have to go. thanks Babbage. I'll try to make these meetings more often if I can
[8:54]	Babbage Linden:	ok bye lamorna
[8:54]	Babbage Linden:	i'm going to head off in a minute too
[8:55]	Lamorna Proctor:	bye, Oh, btw I'm just down the road from you :)
[8:55]	Babbage Linden:	any last thoughts?
[8:55]	Lamorna Proctor:	Brighton
[8:55]	Arawn Spitteler'd like an instruction hbook, on how to access HTTP for Idiots
[8:55]	Lamorna Proctor:	bye now
[8:55]	WolfPup Lowenhar:	do you know if the SLim is going to be able to see more chat such as group ims and such?
[8:56]	Babbage Linden:	nope, i don't know wolfpup
[8:56]	WolfPup Lowenhar:	do you know who might?
[8:56]	Arawn Spitteler wonders if Stephanie Linden still has a job
[8:57]	Babbage Linden:	joe is the person to ask about slim
[8:57]	Babbage Linden:	or stephanie
[8:57]	Arawn Spitteler:	Joe?
[8:58]	Babbage Linden:	joe linden
[8:58]	Arawn Spitteler:	I have't found Office Hours for Joe or Stephany
[8:58]	Annelin Corrigible:	Stephany worked on Landmark and navigation project
[8:58]	Annelin Corrigible:	Stephanie*
[8:59]	Babbage Linden:	cg might also be a good person to aslk
[8:59]	Babbage Linden:	ok, i have to go
[8:59]	Babbage Linden:	thanks for coming everyone
[8:59]	WolfPup Lowenhar:	i may see if i can get with ramzi some more about the issue with the viwer
[8:59]	Siann Beck:	Thanks, Babbage!
[8:59]	Arawn Spitteler:	CG had no brief, last I asked.
[8:59]	Nock Forager:	Thanks for your time babbage.
[8:59]	Imaze Rhiano:	thanks
[9:00]	Babbage Linden:	bye!
[9:00]	Linegirl McMillan:	slim is better than sleek? I think you get group IMs in sleek
[9:00]	Fake Fitzgerald:	thanks babbage
[9:00]	WolfPup Lowenhar:	Thank Youuuuuu!! for the tip for having us here babbage
[9:00]	WolfPup Lowenhar:	woppx
[9:00]	Arawn Spitteler is off to go Verticle
[9:00]	Nock Forager:	cross finger for 1.25.3!