User:Benjamin Linden/Office Hours/2007 Aug 16

Transcript of Benjamin Linden's office hours:

[15:01]	Benjamin Linden:	hi guys
[15:01]	Benjamin Linden:	wow cool av, moonshadow
[15:01]	Benja Kepler:	tee hee
[15:01]	Moonshadow Blackadder:	It's Wyn. :)
[15:01]	Benjamin Linden:	oops sorry, I'm no using voice at the moment
[15:01]	Moonshadow Blackadder is hiding.
[15:01]	Benjamin Linden:	oh hey Wyn! :-)
[15:01]	Benja Kepler:	wow
[15:02]	Moonshadow Blackadder:	So no telling.
[15:02]	Moonshadow Blackadder:	LOL
[15:02]	Moonshadow Blackadder:	Isn't it a great av?
[15:02]	Revolution Perenti:	hey guys
[15:02]	Benjamin Linden:	yes, it's really nice
[15:02]	Moonshadow Blackadder:	But there's a bug. If you look through this av you'll see that colors change or things disappear.
[15:02]	Revolution Perenti:	how are you ben :)
[15:02]	Benjamin Linden:	where'd you get it?
[15:02]	Benjamin Linden:	hi Revolution
[15:02]	Benjamin Linden:	how are you?
[15:02]	Moonshadow Blackadder:	Hello Revolution.
[15:03]	Benjamin Linden:	Benja, I'm surprised you weren't at the Open source meeting on UI architecture work
[15:03]	Benjamin Linden:	or maybe you were and I missed it?
[15:03]	Benjamin Linden:	hey Kookie
[15:03]	Benjamin Linden:	Kooky rather
[15:03]	Benjamin Linden:	:-)
[15:04]	Benja Kepler:	ah, well, the weather has been much better in rl ....
[15:04]	Kooky Jetaime:	Thanks Ben
[15:04]	Moonshadow Blackadder:	Not often you can have a meeting with a ghost horse. I missed the opensauce too.
[15:05]	Benjamin Linden:	so did anyone have a chance to look at the UI project proposal I put on the wiki?
[15:05]	Kooky Jetaime:	Nice horse
[15:05]	Moonshadow Blackadder:	Thanks Kooky.
[15:05]	Benjamin Linden:	https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User_Interface_Improvements
[15:05]	Kooky Jetaime:	that is fricking cool
[15:05]	Benjamin Linden:	thanks Kooky!
[15:05]	Moonshadow Blackadder:	Grendle's Children has them. Diferent colors too.
[15:06]	Benjamin Linden:	oh haha I thought you were talking about the UI project
[15:06]	Benjamin Linden:	:-)
[15:06]	Revolution Perenti:	thats a great idear Ben , but looks too vista-ish
[15:06]	Kooky Jetaime:	yea, the horse
[15:06]	Moonshadow Blackadder likes that idea.
[15:06]	Moonshadow Blackadder:	Actually there's an app I use like that.
[15:06]	Moonshadow Blackadder:	Oh it's Google Earth.
[15:07]	Revolution Perenti:	is there any plans for like an API maybe like make our own interface plugins via c++
[15:07]	Revolution Perenti:	and liek drop in dlls
[15:07]	Kooky Jetaime:	I like the movement block
[15:07]	Moonshadow Blackadder:	You don't see all the controls till you move your mouse over them.
[15:07]	Benjamin Linden:	yes, the movement controls were somewhat inspired by google earth's
[15:07]	Moonshadow Blackadder:	LOL
[15:07]	Revolution Perenti:	is this working prototype now or just photoshop mockup
[15:08]	Benjamin Linden:	Revolution, what did you mean about it looking to vista-like?
[15:08]	Benjamin Linden:	it's just a photoshop mockup
[15:08]	Moonshadow Blackadder doesn't know Vista yet.
[15:08]	Kooky Jetaime:	it don't seem Vistaish
[15:08]	Kooky Jetaime:	Vista-ish
[15:08]	Revolution Perenti:	well the icons and layout and thats glassy feel and look
[15:08]	Benja Kepler:	just readiung it now (I like the idea of an "Out of box" experience....)
[15:08]	Moonshadow Blackadder:	Gosh that would be so cool, Benjamin. So much space!
[15:08]	Kooky Jetaime:	but I like panels
[15:08]	Revolution Perenti:	im a linux user most of the time only on windows now becuase vista in voice not 100%
[15:08]	Moonshadow Blackadder:	Can it be an option?
[15:09]	Benjamin Linden:	can what be an option?
[15:09]	Benjamin Linden:	what do you mean "you like panels" Kooky?
[15:09]	Revolution Perenti:	even the linux code i manegd to fix the voice protocall refuses to reconise it by the viewer
[15:09]	Moonshadow Blackadder:	This suggested inteface and the old.
[15:09]	Revolution Perenti:	like sl-voice
[15:09]	Kooky Jetaime:	by that I mean I don't like text boxes hanging out in the middle of nowhere
[15:09]	Benjamin Linden:	well I dont know if we'd be able to support two UIs going forward
[15:10]	Benjamin Linden:	oh right, so like a docking UI?
[15:10]	Kooky Jetaime:	Why not..if we're scripting/skinning it :)
[15:10]	Benjamin Linden:	right, Kooky, so if a Resident wanted to a build a skin that looked like the old UI, and support that going forward, that would be great
[15:10]	Moonshadow Blackadder understands.
[15:10]	Kooky Jetaime:	Like what nick is doing now...although on a much similar scale ;)
[15:11]	Kooky Jetaime:	er simpler
[15:11]	Revolution Perenti:	well you could get it expanadable as your using mozilla theme engine in sl , cant we have something like mozilla addons system for like new extesions for gui maybe good alternative to use huds creating less load
[15:12]	Benjamin Linden:	those are great suggestions, Revolution, and I hope that Steve's studio can make some of that happen
[15:13]	Laetizia Coronet:	good even ing :)
[15:13]	Moonshadow Blackadder:	Hello Laetizia :)
[15:13]	Revolution Perenti:	for example someone wants to make a blog interface inside sl , we could installed the addon from sl website like firefox website and automatically activated on next load and we could manage the plugins or extensions only have gui tools we want active
[15:13]	Benjamin Linden:	hi Laetizia
[15:14]	Laetizia Coronet:	hi Benjamin :)
[15:14]	Benjamin Linden:	yes, we definitely want to have plug-in support
[15:14]	Revolution Perenti:	and with upcoming mono there alot of things we could do
[15:14]	Benja Kepler:	Benjamin, I just caught up - by eliminating the menu system do you also mean to eliminate the keyboard shortcuts?
[15:14]	Benjamin Linden:	no Benja, we still want to have keyboard shortcuts
[15:15]	Benjamin Linden:	in fact, in the long term we want to have a much more robust and customizable key-binding system
[15:15]	Revolution Perenti:	think it migt be good idear if you going to deign it around those lines Ben is have like drag and drop system
[15:15]	Moonshadow Blackadder:	Hello Alexa Linden :)
[15:15]	Revolution Perenti:	for example let the user move the guis menus where they would liek them
[15:15]	Alexa Linden:	/Hi :D
[15:15]	Revolution Perenti:	hide them with view menu
[15:16]	Revolution Perenti:	hi Alexa
[15:16]	Revolution Perenti:	not seen you before
[15:16]	Laetizia Coronet:	yes sounds good
[15:16]	Alexa Linden:	/Hi Rev
[15:16]	Laetizia Coronet:	hi Alexa
[15:16]	Alexa Linden:	hey all :)
[15:16]	Benjamin Linden:	hi Alexa!
[15:16]	Revolution Perenti:	nice wings, they look dagerous
[15:16]	Benjamin Linden:	nice wings :-)
[15:16]	Alexa Linden smiles
[15:16]	Laetizia Coronet:	and please make placement f a minimized window changeable too - right now they cover chat
[15:16]	Alexa Linden:	thank you
[15:17]	Benjamin Linden:	you know I was playing with that the other day and I was able to move a minimized window
[15:17]	Benjamin Linden:	it might be a bug though...
[15:17]	Laetizia Coronet:	but you have superpowers :P
[15:17]	Kooky Jetaime:	I move minimized windows
[15:17]	Revolution Perenti:	i found bug yesterday too
[15:17]	Laetizia Coronet:	I can't seem to do it
[15:17]	Revolution Perenti:	not submited it yet
[15:18]	Kooky Jetaime:	I have a memory leak..but
[15:18]	Kooky Jetaime:	I'm at 1,055MB and growing :)
[15:18]	Benjamin Linden:	Laetizia, what version are you running?
[15:18]	Benjamin Linden:	that's odd you can't move it, because it's working for me
[15:18]	Laetizia Coronet:	ummm the standard latest one
[15:18]	Laetizia Coronet:	maybe it has changed since - I sort of accepted my fate ;)
[15:19]	Revolution Perenti:	like in script i have like notecard based texture system and seems the it would texture fine but the object would look hollow kinda LOD like but its not
[15:19]	Revolution Perenti:	hard explain lol
[15:19]	Benja Kepler:	ok, thx
[15:19]	Benjamin Linden:	any luck Laetizia?
[15:19]	Laetizia Coronet:	right it moves :)
[15:19]	Benjamin Linden:	cool!
[15:19]	Benjamin Linden:	progress! :-)
[15:19]	Squirrel Wood:	backies
[15:20]	Laetizia Coronet:	ciould have been just my clumsiness
[15:20]	Moonshadow Blackadder:	fronties.
[15:20]	Laetizia Coronet:	Benjamin any chance of getting a friends list with some options of subdivision?
[15:20]	Benja Kepler:	(keyboard shortcuts can facilitate automatic testing )
[15:20]	Kooky Jetaime:	That would be nice.... Friends Groups
[15:20]	Roof Doors:	Alexa Linden is at the door.
[15:21]	Laetizia Coronet:	I have business contacts, noobs from the mentoring and real friends - I am flooded
[15:21]	Roof Doors:	Alexa Linden is at the door.
[15:21]	Benjamin Linden:	I've been discussing that with one of our developers
[15:21]	Benjamin Linden:	we definitely need a better way to organize friends and groups
[15:21]	Benjamin Linden:	that's probably a ways off though
[15:21]	Revolution Perenti:	also Ben talking about friendlist im not sure if its a bug, for example someone removes you from there online staus, but if you press search->people->name if you see teleport highlight they are online
[15:21]	Moonshadow Blackadder was thinking of a way to control roles in groups, talking about friends. "Like if you could create roles that can IM as a group, or IM as a whole, then we wouldn't need more groups."
[15:21]	Laetizia Coronet:	ok well as long as you're on it
[15:21]	Revolution Perenti:	so is online status really that effective
[15:22]	Benja Kepler:	(horses eat apples?)
[15:22]	Revolution Perenti:	i know otherways too in script but thats me
[15:22]	Revolution Perenti:	ghost ones lol
[15:22]	Laetizia Coronet:	horses eat apples, yes
[15:22]	Kooky Jetaime:	Revolution, Everett was talking about groups a couple weeks ago
[15:22]	Benja Kepler:	Benjamin, can I ask you something off topic?
[15:23]	Moonshadow Blackadder:	Nice apple, thanks Benja ;)
[15:23]	Benjamin Linden:	Wyn, I'm not sure I totally understood your question about roles
[15:23]	Benja Kepler:	you're very welcome
[15:23]	Benjamin Linden:	sure, Benja
[15:23]	Moonshadow Blackadder:	Ghost horses eat apples, but you can see it till it goes away ;)
[15:23]	Revolution Perenti:	lol moonshadow
[15:23]	Benja Kepler:	some old horses can always have their own apples
[15:24]	Moonshadow Blackadder:	LOL
[15:24]	Benjamin Linden:	I have a quick question regarding the communicate window
[15:24]	Benjamin Linden:	well a couple actually
[15:24]	Moonshadow Blackadder:	Shoot.
[15:24]	Benjamin Linden:	first, what do people think of the chat entry field in the communicate window?
[15:24]	Kooky Jetaime:	Superflouis
[15:25]	Moonshadow Blackadder:	I use it more that then chat one (the button)
[15:25]	Benja Kepler:	well, you do get 2 if the chat button is used - so that could confuse...
[15:25]	Benjamin Linden:	I imagined cases where people would use that instead of the chat field at the cottom
[15:25]	Benjamin Linden:	yes, Benja, I'm concerned about potential confusion
[15:26]	Moonshadow Blackadder:	Well sometimes I do other things in the one at the bottom of the screen. like
[15:26]	Laetizia Coronet:	I never noticed it
[15:26]	Squirrel Wood:	I use the chat entry field in the communicate window for IM sessions. Other than that I use the one at the bottom of the screen. And the one in the detached near me/chat history window is... redundant. not needed.
[15:26]	Revolution Perenti:	ok Ben with voice just entered now onto main release of secondlife , soon we have mono, windlight all being merged into main release tree , and soon as miller said that server code going to be open source too and sl going to be a platform like a webserver ie Apche project , there also alot of talk aroudn the web about lindenx being removed for the favor of opensource , would you think this would actually happen if LL are going to push free software foundation and open source
[15:26]	Benja Kepler:	Benjamin, can you clarify something? Is the Contribution Agreement just for the Open Source project, or is it for ALL contributions, such as wiki and PJIRA?
[15:26]	Revolution Perenti:	lol i write too much
[15:26]	Moonshadow Blackadder:	Just do effects down there, do chatting in the communications window. Ripped off by itself.
[15:26]	Laetizia Coronet:	you do that was too assr5
[15:27]	Laetizia Coronet:	fast
[15:27]	Benjamin Linden:	wow guys, I'm not the best person to answer these questions about the open source agreements
[15:27]	Revolution Perenti:	lol im open osurce addict
[15:27]	Benjamin Linden:	you might ask Rob at his open source meeting
[15:27]	Squirrel Wood:	Mmmm. Open Sauce ^^
[15:27]	Kooky Jetaime:	I'm guessing that the agreement referrs to contributions
[15:27]	Revolution Perenti:	make game engiens for open source and web portals
[15:27]	Moonshadow Blackadder:	Open sauce on that?
[15:27]	Benjamin Linden:	so Wyn, what did you mean you "do effects" in the bottom bar?
[15:27]	Kooky Jetaime:	since you don't need to sign one to comment/use the wiki/pjira
[15:27]	Kooky Jetaime:	but thats not my legal opinion
[15:28]	Benja Kepler:	ok, thx Benjamin
[15:28]	Benja Kepler:	(my chat is lagging btw)
[15:28]	Benjamin Linden:	wyn, did you mean "gestures"?
[15:28]	Benjamin Linden:	when you said "effects"?
[15:29]	Laetizia Coronet:	Wyn? Is she here?
[15:29]	Benja Kepler:	equinely speaking she is
[15:29]	Benjamin Linden:	lol
[15:29]	Laetizia Coronet:	sheesh I missed that
[15:29]	Benja Kepler:	/whispeer she likes apples
[15:30]	Revolution Perenti:	Ben as your the gui designer for LL will LL ever bring back some kind of rating system, like we had before but better tailed for residensts as robin says sometimes based on trust like where you can go into someone profile and rate them good / bad
[15:30]	Laetizia Coronet:	baaaah... ratings
[15:30]	Benjamin Linden:	I would love to see us do a rating system similar to digg or del.icio.us
[15:30]	Laetizia Coronet:	there is RatePoint
[15:30]	Benjamin Linden:	I think it would help direct people to places that are cool, or with similar interests
[15:32]	Revolution Perenti:	like ebay is a good exammple we look who we are buying from look at the good / bad rating and if someone having alot of frued , abuse or stolen lindens for example over time they would build up a track record good or bad and make residents wary or feel more coftable when spending there money in game
[15:32]	Revolution Perenti:	just an example
[15:32]	Moonshadow Blackadder:	/ao on
[15:32]	Benjamin Linden:	yes, good point Revolution
[15:32]	Moonshadow Blackadder:	Did you get that last response, Benjamin?
[15:32]	Benjamin Linden:	nothing's planned that I know of
[15:33]	Benjamin Linden:	no Moonshadow, what did you say?
[15:33]	Moonshadow Blackadder:	I use the bottom one sometimes to type in gestures.
[15:33]	Benjamin Linden:	ah
[15:33]	Benjamin Linden:	why do you do that there instead of in the chatterbox?
[15:33]	Revolution Perenti:	before they removed that ratting system i aways voted people and they voted from me too and it it was like our own sl portfolio of how well we have done since we started sl
[15:34]	Kooky Jetaime:	I'm kinda glad I didn't do a whole lot of voting
[15:34]	Moonshadow Blackadder:	Sometimes I min the chat history and am just watching the text go by.
[15:34]	Kooky Jetaime:	only lost a couple hundred bucks :)
[15:34]	Revolution Perenti:	ofor example if someone hires a builder or scripter it be nice to see stats where they built up from building either in world or by vote system
[15:34]	Moonshadow Blackadder:	But then I open it up to actually type in text.
[15:34]	Moonshadow Blackadder:	Just something I fell into doing.
[15:34]	Laetizia Coronet:	whenever I go to the RatePoint cafe they are begging us to sign up for their rating system but I never see it inword
[15:35]	Revolution Perenti:	well im more somone who only usally offical linden software or copnfirmed by linden labs
[15:35]	Laetizia Coronet:	so I don't rreally think it will be a popular feature
[15:35]	Revolution Perenti:	love the new windlight by the way was playing it yesterday
[15:35]	Benjamin Linden:	cool, Revolution, glad to hear
[15:35]	Moonshadow Blackadder:	Is there a firstlook for windlight?
[15:35]	Benjamin Linden:	I haven't had a chance to play with it yet myself
[15:35]	Revolution Perenti:	still wants voice in the subversion :P
[15:35]	Benja Kepler:	omg!
[15:36]	Benja Kepler:	there's a new windlight?
[15:36]	Benjamin Linden:	but the screenshots loook great
[15:36]	Revolution Perenti:	i use it all the time update my svn and rebuild the cource code
[15:36]	Moonshadow Blackadder:	Torley's all on about it.
[15:36]	Laetizia Coronet doesn't even hope for her graphix card to pull that off
[15:36]	Revolution Perenti:	its the best thing ever happened
[15:36]	Revolution Perenti:	i love some of the new skys torleys working on too thats going into the windlight release
[15:37]	Benjamin Linden:	now we just have to make the rest of the world look as good as the sky :-)
[15:37]	Benjamin Linden:	hi Saijanai
[15:37]	Revolution Perenti:	lol best not keep saying torley he usally pops up
[15:37]	Moonshadow Blackadder:	LOL Benjamin.
[15:37]	Benjamin Linden:	nice hat :-)
[15:37]	Revolution Perenti:	lol
[15:37]	Laetizia Coronet:	hi Sai
[15:37]	Saijanai Kuhn:	I thought windlight was due out already even
[15:37]	Benjamin Linden:	Rev was just talking about it
[15:37]	Saijanai Kuhn:	Hey Benjamin, hey all.
[15:38]	Revolution Perenti:	well far as i know ETA for MONO is next month with 1 test sim
[15:38]	Revolution Perenti:	and windlight in matter of weeks
[15:38]	Benja Kepler:	hi Saijanai
[15:38]	Benja Kepler:	gosh
[15:38]	Benjamin Linden:	another question for you guys
[15:38]	Kooky Jetaime:	hmm?
[15:38]	Saijanai Kuhn:	could swear that WIndlight was due out. like yesterday in a new first look
[15:38]	Benjamin Linden:	we want to make the labeling of the History button and the Near Me tab consistent
[15:38]	Benjamin Linden:	but it's tough to come up with a label that works in both places
[15:38]	Benjamin Linden:	any suggestions?
[15:39]	Saijanai Kuhn:	wat is the history button supposed to do now? It used to log everything, but that seems not the case any more
[15:40]	Revolution Perenti:	cant the first button of left like your prototype be like multi button like communicate / history button
[15:40]	Revolution Perenti:	with onload effect
[15:40]	Benjamin Linden:	I'm not sure I understand, Rev
[15:40]	Revolution Perenti:	like drop button, say communicate or hostory to left of that chat area
[15:40]	Benjamin Linden:	do you mean like a button that opens up with more options?
[15:41]	Alanis Arai:	alguien abla españos?
[15:41]	Alanis Arai:	español
[15:41]	Benjamin Linden:	Hi Alanis, I only speak English, sorry!
[15:41]	Laetizia Coronet:	desculpe no
[15:41]	Revolution Perenti:	then like glass effect similar too how stats bar looks in sl view menu
[15:41]	Alanis Arai:	:(
[15:41]	Revolution Perenti:	hola que tal alantis
[15:41]	Saijanai Kuhn:	hablo un pequito
[15:41]	Benjamin Linden:	one suggestion was "Local Chat"
[15:41]	Alanis Arai:	:)
[15:41]	Alanis Arai:	como puedo teletransportarme
[15:41]	Benjamin Linden:	since that explains how it's different from the other IMs
[15:42]	Benjamin Linden:	without being too long
[15:42]	Alanis Arai:	soy nueva
[15:42]	Benja Kepler:	Alanis, donde quieras ir?
[15:42]	Saijanai Kuhn:	press the map button
[15:42]	Alanis Arai:	mmm
[15:42]	xSaijanai: presione el botón del mapa
[15:43]	Squirrel Wood:	Gah. Stupid Audacity. Saves a 9 second wav file as 10 second wav by adding one second of silence... without being told to do so :(
[15:43]	Alanis Arai:	la verda nose donde
[15:43]	Kooky Jetaime:	hahaha
[15:43]	Alanis Arai:	ok
[15:43]	Saijanai Kuhn:	type the name of your destination
[15:43]	xSaijanai: mecanografíe el nombre de su destinación
[15:43]	Kooky Jetaime:	I like Audacity
[15:43]	Squirrel Wood:	I hate it.
[15:43]	Saijanai Kuhn:	if you find it, press the teleport button
[15:43]	xSaijanai: si usted lo encuentra, presione el botón del teleport
[15:43]	Squirrel Wood:	I prefer cool edit.
[15:43]	Benja Kepler:	it's a TV show in Spain
[15:43]	Alanis Arai:	como se donde donde voy sino se como se llaman los sitios
[15:43]	Revolution Perenti:	maybe we should have sl design contest for new gui enhancment
[15:43]	Benjamin Linden:	no feedback on the Near Me tab label?
[15:43]	Revolution Perenti:	lol
[15:44]	Alanis Arai:	mmmm ya
[15:44]	Revolution Perenti:	let me look again at pixy
[15:44]	Benjamin Linden:	that would be cool, as long as someone builds it Rev!
[15:44]	Saijanai Kuhn:	or
[15:44]	Benja Kepler:	Alanis, se peude Ctrl+Shift+H
[15:44]	Saijanai Kuhn:	press the search button
[15:44]	xSaijanai: presione el botón de la búsqueda
[15:44]	Alanis Arai:	algun centro comercial
[15:44]	Kooky Jetaime:	heh
[15:44]	Saijanai Kuhn:	press the button for places
[15:45]	xSaijanai: presione el botón para los lugares
[15:45]	Saijanai Kuhn:	type in what y ou are looking for
[15:45]	xSaijanai: mecanografíe adentro qué el ou de y está buscando
[15:45]	Saijanai Kuhn:	type in what you are looking for
[15:45]	Alanis Arai:	ok
[15:45]	xSaijanai: mecanografíe adentro qué usted está buscando
[15:45]	Saijanai Kuhn:	press the search button
[15:45]	xSaijanai: presione el botón de la búsqueda
[15:46]	Saijanai Kuhn:	click on the name
[15:46]	xSaijanai: chasque encendido el nombre
[15:46]	Saijanai Kuhn:	then press teleport
[15:46]	xSaijanai: entonces presione teleport
[15:46]	Alanis Arai:	ok muchas gracias
[15:46]	Laetizia Coronet:	really, Babbler is so bad, I couldn't be happier lol
[15:46]	Revolution Perenti:	lol like i said skinning / plugin system and ablity to place anything where we like it in .xml files for example like <commbutton>code</commbutton>
[15:46]	Revolution Perenti:	like firefox
[15:47]	Saijanai Kuhn:	de nada
[15:47]	Alanis Arai:	thank in inglish!xD
[15:47]	Benjamin Linden:	wow, nice job Saijania
[15:48]	Saijanai Kuhn:	I once had a begining Mac student on so much medication I had to devise mouse-centering exercises for her
[15:48]	Laetizia Coronet:	sheesh that sounds bad
[15:48]	Saijanai Kuhn:	you learn to find a level you can talk to them at
[15:49]	Saijanai Kuhn:	3 days a week, for 10 minutes at the start of each tutoring session, we'd review centering the mouse
[15:49]	Saijanai Kuhn runs screaming into the night while remembering
[15:49]	Benjamin Linden:	ok I'm going to take it from the lack of responses that you guys don't have any good ideas for labeling the Near Me tab :-)
[15:50]	Kooky Jetaime:	Nope
[15:50]	Revolution Perenti:	lol yea prety much
[15:50]	Kooky Jetaime:	Personally I like History but
[15:50]	Saijanai Kuhn:	I'm still not sure what you mean by history anymore
[15:50]	Kooky Jetaime:	renaming the history button on the chat bar Sai
[15:50]	Revolution Perenti:	chat history
[15:50]	Benjamin Linden:	history isn't fully accurate
[15:50]	Saijanai Kuhn:	right, but what does it DO?
[15:50]	Kooky Jetaime:	Neither is "Near Me" :)
[15:50]	Laetizia Coronet:	let's get used to it first please
[15:50]	Revolution Perenti:	like the anoying commucate tab ->near me
[15:50]	Benjamin Linden:	plus it doesn't really convey much meaning to new users
[15:50]	Revolution Perenti:	lol
[15:50]	Moonshadow Blackadder:	Oh I'm sorry, didnt' see that, got distracted by so many windows open ;)
[15:50]	Saijanai Kuhn:	it doesn't seem to work like the old one did
[15:50]	Moonshadow Blackadder:	Nearby maybe?
[15:51]	Benjamin Linden:	one proposal was Local Chat
[15:51]	Moonshadow Blackadder:	Na too long.
[15:51]	Laetizia Coronet:	It doesn't really matter what you call it, as long as users see what is meant
[15:51]	Moonshadow Blackadder:	Heyyou? na too long.
[15:51]	Saijanai Kuhn:	but that's the point of naming objects....
[15:51]	Kooky Jetaime:	Thats what happens when you combine two unrelated functions on 1 window :)
[15:51]	Moonshadow Blackadder:	Nearby works for me.
[15:51]	Benja Kepler:	so isn't the problem that you wanted the particpants list and added it to chat history and then renamed that to near me, so, why not just make particpants list separate?
[15:51]	Moonshadow Blackadder:	It's the same amount of letters but one word.
[15:51]	Laetizia Coronet:	but the point of GUIs is that people get to know them - not change them after a week or two
[15:52]	Benja Kepler:	*participants not pants
[15:52]	Moonshadow Blackadder:	Oh.
[15:52]	Kooky Jetaime applauds Benja
[15:52]	Benjamin Linden:	the UI is already so hard for people to manage
[15:52]	Benjamin Linden:	so many windows
[15:52]	Moonshadow Blackadder:	Party pants party pants LOL
[15:52]	Benjamin Linden:	we wanted to make it less complicated
[15:52]	Saijanai Kuhn:	if its a matter of just naming it what it does, then name it lower-left button that does stuff that happens when you press the lower left button
[15:52]	Kooky Jetaime:	And confusing how they are grouped
[15:52]	Saijanai Kuhn:	sarcasm intetnded
[15:52]	Squirrel Wood:	Public Chat <= That's what I would name it
[15:52]	Revolution Perenti:	lol or about past means same as history dont it
[15:52]	Squirrel Wood:	Because that is what it represents
[15:52]	Benja Kepler:	nice horsey
[15:53]	Moonshadow Blackadder sorries ;)
[15:53]	Revolution Perenti:	lol
[15:53]	Revolution Perenti:	tony robinson digs ditches now lol
[15:53]	Saijanai Kuhn:	if it only puts local chat in a window, namme it something along that line
[15:53]	Laetizia Coronet:	I think Chat History is clear - Near Me is not, it implies that you lose it when you leave
[15:53]	Benja Kepler:	"but I've been in your family for two centuries...."
[15:53]	Benjamin Linden:	Kooky, what do you mean about combining unrelated functions?
[15:54]	Benjamin Linden:	good point Laetizia
[15:54]	Kooky Jetaime:	Text Chat History and List of avitars physically near you with voice functions
[15:54]	Laetizia Coronet:	I was afraid of that the first time :)
[15:54]	Kooky Jetaime:	You reinvented the wheel
[15:54]	Saijanai Kuhn:	local chat box?
[15:54]	Squirrel Wood:	chat history is not "clear" on what chat this is the "history" of
[15:54]	Revolution Perenti:	or maybe multi tab history like near me vs friends
[15:54]	Moonshadow Blackadder still thinks nearby is clearer, "How does that translate, Laetizia? Or does it?"
[15:54]	Revolution Perenti:	so you can filter the logs
[15:55]	Kooky Jetaime:	<-- Still uses old UI himself with voice
[15:55]	Squirrel Wood:	Publich Chatz0r! ^^
[15:55]	Benjamin Linden:	but the list of avatars near you is related to the chat history, because it's the things those people said
[15:55]	Saijanai Kuhn:	of course, we'lre all thinking in English, anyway
[15:55]	Laetizia Coronet:	so make it text chat history
[15:55]	Benjamin Linden:	same with group chats, for example
[15:55]	Saijanai Kuhn:	who knows how this translates into another lagnauge...
[15:55]	Moonshadow Blackadder:	LOL Squirrel!
[15:55]	Kooky Jetaime:	I guess thats more like \/ Still uses old UI
[15:55]	Moonshadow Blackadder:	Laetizia would know.
[15:55]	Kooky Jetaime:	But people will dissapear from the Near You list yet what they said remains
[15:55]	Squirrel Wood:	"The usual nonsense" ? ^^
[15:55]	Saijanai Kuhn:	close speakers text
[15:55]	Laetizia Coronet:	Sai, that is always a big question - you might need a paragraph to describe it in Polish
[15:56]	Kooky Jetaime:	Was it really necessary to add an internal radar to the chat history?
[15:56]	Moonshadow Blackadder:	LOL.
[15:56]	Revolution Perenti:	why have text use icons , its universal
[15:56]	Revolution Perenti:	with hover popups
[15:56]	Squirrel Wood:	"Things, the world didn't want to know about" ? ^^
[15:56]	Saijanai Kuhn:	icons are hardly universal
[15:56]	Kooky Jetaime:	Because thats what it effectively is.
[15:56]	Laetizia Coronet:	I think you need a short description, a broad one, and let the users find out what exactly it is. It works for the WIndows "Start" butoon which has much more functionality than that
[15:56]	Benjamin Linden:	voice made it necessary, Kooky
[15:57]	Saijanai Kuhn:	local text window
[15:57]	Squirrel Wood:	I'd just name it "Public Chat" ^^
[15:57]	Laetizia Coronet:	you can't make an idiot-proof GUI, people need some intelligence to use SL
[15:57]	Kooky Jetaime:	And those who choose not to use voice get stuck with it.
[15:57]	Revolution Perenti:	and like maybe popup boxes like help interface similar to overlib
[15:57]	Benjamin Linden:	tooltips, Laetizia!
[15:57]	Kooky Jetaime:	Would have, to me, seemed simpler to add a "Voice" tab with everything relating to voice.
[15:57]	Saijanai Kuhn:	nearby text
[15:57]	Laetizia Coronet:	there ya go Benjamin
[15:57]	Revolution Perenti:	lol
[15:58]	Kooky Jetaime:	If you don't use voice, hide it
[15:58]	Squirrel Wood:	Even if you manage to make something totally fool prof, Nature just will make bigger fools to counter your efforts ^^
[15:58]	Benjamin Linden:	I was an advocate of hiding all voice-related UI when you don't use voice
[15:58]	Moonshadow Blackadder:	Good point Squirrel.
[15:58]	Benjamin Linden:	but it turns out it's quite hard to use
[15:58]	Benjamin Linden:	lol @ squirrel
[15:58]	Kooky Jetaime:	How is it hard to use?
[15:58]	Benjamin Linden:	but you can hide the participant list so you dont' have to look at it
[15:59]	Kooky Jetaime:	Which basically changes near me to a history
[15:59]	Moonshadow Blackadder:	I rip off the chat history.
[15:59]	Benjamin Linden:	right Kooky
[15:59]	Benjamin Linden:	that's why I'm thinking "Local Chat" is a good label
[15:59]	Benjamin Linden:	because even if you don't look at the participant list, it's still a log of local chat
[15:59]	Revolution Perenti:	since voice PG islands are no longer PG but they should have voice laisons to monior help islands now
[16:00]	Laetizia Coronet:	I think that whole local thing is nonsense
[16:00]	Laetizia Coronet:	maybe "recent chat"
[16:00]	Saijanai Kuhn:	one word is better than two, but I can't think of a one word equivalent (without checking a dictionary which kinda defeats teh purpose)
[16:00]	Benjamin Linden:	why's that Laetizia?
[16:00]	Kooky Jetaime:	Stupid question if I may.. Show of hands, who here likes the new Post Voice UI and use it? vs Use the Old UI with voice? (aka Nicks Voice 18xE)
[16:00]	Benjamin Linden:	the thing is, we need something that says "this is a log of in-world chat" (versus IM chat)
[16:00]	Laetizia Coronet:	it is not local, when I go to Grasmere now I still have your chat in it
[16:00]	Kooky Jetaime:	18xE here
[16:00]	Revolution Perenti:	lol im aways telling people off and im not a linden
[16:00]	Saijanai Kuhn:	chat record
[16:00]	Benjamin Linden:	yes but it was local to you when it happened
[16:00]	Laetizia Coronet:	our chat here was recent but not necessarily local
[16:01]	Moonshadow Blackadder doesn't understand the question.
[16:01]	Benja Kepler:	call it something else
[16:01]	Laetizia Coronet:	hmmm whjat is wrong with recent?
[16:01]	Benja Kepler:	like bogroll
[16:01]	Benjamin Linden:	because that's not necessarily accurate either
[16:01]	Laetizia Coronet:	call it the Flirp
[16:01]	Benja Kepler:	or ship's log
[16:01]	Kooky Jetaime:	Mine Moonshadow?
[16:01]	Benjamin Linden:	lol
[16:01]	Kooky Jetaime:	Flirp.. haha
[16:01]	Moonshadow Blackadder:	Is that what happens when you fall into mud, bogroll? Yes Kooky.
[16:01]	Squirrel Wood:	hence my suggestion "Public Chat" ^^
[16:01]	Moonshadow Blackadder:	Log is good.
[16:01]	Benja Kepler:	flirp is in Holland, right?
[16:02]	Benjamin Linden:	that's not bad either Squirrel
[16:02]	Benja Kepler:	near Nijmegen
[16:02]	Laetizia Coronet:	I have no idea what flirp is
[16:02]	Kooky Jetaime:	Moonshadow - Nicholas Edition of SL uses the majority of the Pre-Chatterbox UI (Seperate friends, Groups Lists, etc) but adds the voice elements to it.
[16:02]	Laetizia Coronet:	I am in Holland and I don't think I've ever been there
[16:02]	Kooky Jetaime:	I love it
[16:02]	Benja Kepler:	fred Linden's Instant Recall Program
[16:02]	Laetizia Coronet:	ah
[16:02]	Kooky Jetaime:	Just a small memory leak, and I don't know if it is part of the official release or one of his adjustments
[16:03]	Laetizia Coronet:	call it The Red Button Marked X
[16:03]	Kooky Jetaime:	Hahahah Lae
[16:03]	Benjamin Linden:	I think it's very cool that Nicholaz is doing his own UI work now too
[16:03]	Laetizia Coronet:	just to see how people would react
[16:03]	Moonshadow Blackadder:	Isnt that delete?
[16:03]	Kooky Jetaime:	Red X is Close
[16:03]	Kooky Jetaime:	thats like telling a noob that Alt-F4 will give him free money
[16:03]	Saijanai Kuhn:	once/if the GUI becomes scriptable, this will become moot
[16:03]	Benjamin Linden:	right, Saijanai
[16:03]	Kooky Jetaime:	Agreed
[16:03]	Moonshadow Blackadder:	Thanks Kooky, I like the new one, if you're still interested in the answer Once I rip off the chat history all is fine.
[16:04]	Laetizia Coronet:	alt-F4 oh come on lol
[16:04]	Benjamin Linden:	people can go crazy with their own skins, like with Wow
[16:04]	Laetizia Coronet:	that joke is older then teh interwebz
[16:04]	Revolution Perenti:	yea thats would be awesome
[16:04]	Saijanai Kuhn:	of coure, for trouble shooting, you'll need an option they can select to "temporarily restore default interface"
[16:04]	Kooky Jetaime:	Maybe we should just forget about fixing the ui and get the code to script/skin it
[16:04]	Kooky Jetaime:	Saijanai - naa, just have a default skin
[16:04]	Kooky Jetaime:	thats a lot more user friendly.
[16:04]	Benjamin Linden:	we need a good default skin
[16:04]	Benjamin Linden:	for all the people who don't care about skins
[16:04]	Saijanai Kuhn:	GUI is more than just a "skin" though
[16:04]	Moonshadow Blackadder:	That's like del *.* in the olden days.
[16:05]	Benjamin Linden:	that too Saijanai
[16:05]	Laetizia Coronet:	of course you do, not every noob wants to start off by fashioning his skin
[16:05]	Revolution Perenti:	coders talk i use silly works all the time
[16:05]	Squirrel Wood:	LL should go ahead and mayhaps employ Nicholaz ^^
[16:05]	Saijanai Kuhn:	or even a theme ala pre-Next MacOS
[16:05]	Benjamin Linden:	ok folks we're out of time, this was a good discussion
[16:05]	Benja Kepler:	ok! cool, thx
[16:05]	Benjamin Linden:	I appreciate your candid feedback
[16:06]	Kooky Jetaime:	ok
[16:06]	Revolution Perenti:	thanks for nice meeting Ben as aways thanks for hosting
[16:06]	Squirrel Wood:	have a nice day Ben ^^
[16:06]	Saijanai Kuhn:	what is needed is a canned script that temorarily overrides whatever has been done to modify the GUI, and then restores thigns once it is turned off
[16:06]	Laetizia Coronet:	thanks for your time Benjamin
[16:06]	Squirrel Wood:	Always a pleasure to be here :)
[16:06]	Benjamin Linden:	thanks for coming everyone!
[16:06]	Saijanai Kuhn:	alter Benjamin
[16:06]	Saijanai Kuhn:	later
[16:06]	Moonshadow Blackadder:	Thanks for having us.
[16:06]	Revolution Perenti:	see you again next week