User:Benjamin Linden/Office Hours/2007 Jul 03
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Transcript of Benjamin Linden's office hours:
| Squirrel Wood: | hey Ben ^^ | |
| Tao Takashi: | Hi Benjamin! | |
| Wyn Galbraith: | Hey Benjamin! | |
| Benjamin Linden: | hi everyone! | |
| Roof Doors: | Ann Burgess is at the door. | |
| Benjamin Linden: | apologies for being late | |
| Dale Glass: | hiya :-) | |
| Wyn Galbraith: | Relog Lance. | |
| Lance Amat: | interestingly i seen ann sitting but not jasmine | |
| Benjamin Linden: | wow big crowd today | |
| Roof Doors: | Ann Burgess is at the door. | |
| Phli Foxchase: | hello | |
| Benjamin Linden: | hi Phli | |
| Benjamin Linden: | hey Squirrel, glad you could make it again | |
| Lance Amat: | i am trying to relog. thanks all | |
| Benjamin Linden: | hey Tao | |
| Squirrel Wood: | ^^ | |
| Benjamin Linden: | hi Wyn :-) | |
| Wyn Galbraith: | Hello! | |
| Wyn Galbraith is stinkie today ;) | ||
| Squirrel Wood: | I'm here cause I DO enjoy these office hours ^^ | |
| Upper Deck Door: Ann Burgess is at the door. | ||
| Benjamin Linden: | that's great to hear Squirrel? | |
| Wyn Galbraith: | It's all Squirrel' fault | |
| Benjamin Linden: | oops sorry | |
| Benjamin Linden: | I mean to use an exclamation poitn! | |
| Benjamin Linden: | :-) | |
| Squirrel Wood: | Poit! Narf! ^^ | |
| Free Info NoteBook from SquirrelTech: This is a free item and is not meant to be sold. | ||
| Benjamin Linden: | sorry, we're having multiple overlapping meetings here | |
| Benjamin Linden: | hi Dale | |
| Benjamin Linden: | so I have some news before we get started | |
| Wyn Galbraith: | Ok, shoot. | |
| Benjamin Linden: | next week we're going to try something new with this office hour | |
| Benjamin Linden: | some of you have been to Rob's bug triage on Mondays | |
| Wyn Galbraith ears twitch. | ||
| Squirrel Wood: | Yups | |
| Wyn Galbraith: | Missed it due to building fever. | |
| Free Info NoteBook from SquirrelTech: This is a free item and is not meant to be sold. | ||
| Free Radar HUD v1.1 by Crystal Gadgets | ||
| Benjamin Linden: | we're really happy with the success that those triages has had in getting bugs imported into our internal system | |
| Wyn Galbraith missed this Monday' he mean. | ||
| Wyn Galbraith: | *she | |
| Benjamin Linden: | and we want to expand on those efforts to include more traiges per week | |
| Benjamin Linden: | targeted at specific types of bugs | |
| Wyn Galbraith: | So we get to do interface bug? | |
| Benjamin Linden: | so for this office hour we'll be looking at UI bugs specifically -- you guessed it Wyn | |
| Lance Amat: | i lost my hair in the process, lol | |
| Phli Foxchase: | :) | |
| Lance Amat: | now you try to the chair jas | |
| Squirrel Wood: | cool ^^ | |
| Wyn Galbraith: | *bugs, keep dropping letters. Whoop! | |
| Wyn Galbraith loves bugs. | ||
| Squirrel Wood: | Ooo... did Rob manage to move that pet issue of mine yet? | |
| Camber Front Door: Ann Burgess is at the door. | ||
| Benjamin Linden: | I think that will help structure these meetings a bit more and drive more actionable results | |
| Lance Amat: | thanks you guys.. sorry we busted your meeting.. thanks again | |
| Free Info NoteBook from SquirrelTech: This is a free item and is not meant to be sold. | ||
| Wyn Galbraith: | Any one is welcome to the meetings. | |
| Tao Takashi: | which reminds me of that german translation effort :) | |
| Lance Amat: | come darling.. | |
| Maki Guyot gave you R.I.P. Dolltopia - Blog Post Announcement. | ||
| Lance Amat: | ty | |
| Benjamin Linden: | what about the translation Tao? | |
| Tao Takashi: | those people on the forums who wanted to help with translating the client properly | |
| Tao Takashi: | you said you maybe have some update for me this week as you met with the internationalization team | |
| Benjamin Linden: | ah yes | |
| Benjamin Linden: | so I did speak with them last week | |
| Benjamin Linden: | according to a recent update from the internationalization team: "We hope to have the KB translated by the middle of July and a first pass of the German viewer into an optional viewer by the end of July." | |
| Wyn Galbraith cheers. | ||
| Tao Takashi: | ok, so no help needed then? | |
| Phli Foxchase: | and for the french people ? :) | |
| Squirrel Wood: | I prefer my client with an english flavour ^^ | |
| Tao Takashi: | me, too ;-) | |
| Benjamin Linden: | Phli, I didn't ask about French specifically but I do know that it will be one of the supported languages | |
| Phli Foxchase: | ok | |
| Tao Takashi: | but many people on the forums prefer german and wanted to fix that translation which is now implemented | |
| Benjamin Linden: | we will definitely want German eyes on the new translation and reporting bugs once it rolls out | |
| Tao Takashi: | guess it's the same with other countries | |
| Tao Takashi: | well, I am sure you will get those eyes :) | |
| Squirrel Wood: | Okay. I shall complain aboot each and every typo I find ;) | |
| Tao Takashi: | not sure about the bugs, Jira is eventually to complex for many people but we will see | |
| Benjamin Linden: | it would be great if we could make Jira more accessible to people | |
| Wyn Galbraith: | Maybe the German bugs can go through a represenative group that can deal with Jira. | |
| Dale Glass: | heh, that worries me due to how slow it is lately | |
| Tao Takashi: | maybe also too slow which many people might turn down | |
| Phli Foxchase: | jira is slow yep | |
| Tao Takashi: | yes, maybe we can find somebody feeling responsible for those bugs | |
| Benjamin Linden: | slow as in performance? | |
| Dale Glass: | the jira client is great, but can't login | |
| Benjamin Linden: | or as in responsiveness | |
| Dale Glass: | loading jira pages is slow | |
| Phli Foxchase: | 12 sec at least | |
| Tao Takashi: | which makes it no fun to use and thus acceptance is eventually low | |
| Tao Takashi: | probably low ;-) | |
| Tao Takashi: | just use trac ;-) | |
| Wyn Galbraith: | When I worked at WordStar we had the WABbits, the WordStar Adviosry Board. Made up of power user. | |
| Dale Glass: | the jira client greatly compensates for that, but it's readonly at the time. If it could log in, then it'd make the whole thing a lot more tolerable | |
| Wyn Galbraith: | *users | |
| Wyn Galbraith keeps dropping letters. | ||
| Benjamin Linden: | yeah that's bad. I know that Rob is working with our hosting service to get improve the performance. you guys may want to bring that up at his office hours (if you haven't already) | |
| Tao Takashi: | Rob is aware of that according to the sldev list, guess there's not much more we can do to help | |
| Dale Glass: | well, it's old news really. Been said several times on sldev | |
| Wyn Galbraith: | Every one mention Jira's downfall at mostly every meeting. | |
| Benjamin Linden: | haha ok | |
| Benjamin Linden: | I'll chat with Rob about it | |
| Wyn Galbraith: | More like complains | |
| Very Susanti: | hiya what is the topic of today Jira complaints? | |
| Tao Takashi: | but I know that it's hard to find an acceptable issue tracker which is not too complex to use | |
| Benjamin Linden: | Another thing that's great about Rob's office hours is how he gets community input for the bug triage. Basically the entire agenda is written by Residents before the triage. | |
| Tao Takashi now settled for trac for most things.. Mantis is maybe also ok but seems to have grown in complexity with every release | ||
| Benjamin Linden: | I would love to see us get to that point with the UI bug triage, where it's somewhat self-sustaining. | |
| Squirrel Wood: | jira.... loading times per page are between 30 and 60 seconds mostly. for me. | |
| Wyn Galbraith: | What happens I think is that we go through the bug list. | |
| Wyn Galbraith: | So if you pulled a list of the UI bugs we could cover them. | |
| Very Susanti: | when is the new chatterbox coming? | |
| Very Susanti: | sometime this week? | |
| Tao Takashi: | yep, give us a new first look :) | |
| Very Susanti: | First crash this time arround I think | |
| Benjamin Linden: | there is some filtering that happens, by votes and a few other metrics, that helps narrow down and prioritize the list of bugs | |
| Wyn Galbraith: | Is the filter buttom missing on the inventory list of the first look voice? | |
| Benjamin Linden: | I'll post instructions on how to create an agenda based on the bug list | |
| Wyn Galbraith: | Oh wait there it is, in a menu now. hrm, not a button anymore? | |
| Benjamin Linden: | where was the button before, Wyn? | |
| Wyn Galbraith: | Next to Sort I believe. | |
| Benjamin Linden: | hey Very, didn't see you sneak in | |
| Wyn Galbraith just now noticed it missing. | ||
| Wyn Galbraith: | I'd have to load the other view to make sure. | |
| Benjamin Linden: | oh it was a separate menu item | |
| Wyn Galbraith: | *viewer | |
| Wyn Galbraith: | I believe so. | |
| Benjamin Linden: | yes, I think we changed that because it overlapped with the file menu | |
| Very Susanti cloaks herself with lagg particles | ||
| Benjamin Linden: | I would need to go back to Jira to make sure | |
| Wyn Galbraith: | Anyone using the regular viewer? Oh well, darn I use it a lot ;) | |
| Dale Glass: | I'm using the regular one | |
| Wyn Galbraith: | There's a filter button next to sort in the inventory, correct? | |
| Benjamin Linden: | we'd hoped to get the chatterbox changes in before this most recent update but they didn't get done quite in time | |
| Very Susanti: | no I am only first look now | |
| LifeFactory Writer: | /Good day! Forgive me...it takes a very long time for the scene to load, and I do not want to step on anyone. | |
| Wyn Galbraith is on first look. | ||
| Dale Glass: | show filters is in the file menu | |
| Tao Takashi: | yep | |
| Wyn Galbraith: | So they did that change on purpose? | |
| Tao Takashi: | I think it was a button long ago | |
| Dale Glass: | hmm, don't remember really, almost never use filters | |
| Tao Takashi: | me neither, maybe because they are too hidden in the menu | |
| Wyn Galbraith uses them all the time, due to the mass her inventory is. | ||
| Benjamin Linden: | yes, there was a change, I can go look in jira if you'd like me to find the rationale. I remember discussing it with Torley | |
| Tao Takashi: | make it like spotlight or so | |
| Dale Glass: | If I may change subject, I'd like opinions on how to design something | |
| Tao Takashi: | or tabs :) | |
| Very Susanti: | yes let us reorder the communications tabs | |
| Wyn Galbraith: | Ah. Well, might be something I have to get use to then :) | |
| Benjamin Linden: | that's a common request, Very, it's possible we'll do it a future point | |
| Fremont Cunningham returns from RLI | ||
| Very Susanti: | good I will keep making, with more frequency as time gfoes by | |
| Squirrel Wood: | Eww. RL. | |
| Wyn Galbraith: | No horror stories :) | |
| Very Susanti: | ackk I mean, good I will keep making it, with greater frequency as time goes by | |
| Dale Glass: | ok, I'm working on getting a ratings system into the viewer and would like opinions on how to present it | |
| Dale Glass: | here's what it looks like atm: http://daleglass.net/images/screenshots/trustnet_001.jpg | |
| Dale Glass: | http://daleglass.net/images/screenshots/rate_001.jpg | |
| Benjamin Linden: | wow, is this a working prototype, Dale? | |
| Dale Glass: | yep, in my current viewer | |
| Free Info NoteBook from SquirrelTech: This is a free item and is not meant to be sold. | ||
| Benjamin Linden: | impressive! just so I understand, are the nametags color coded based on the rating? | |
| Dale Glass: | this is a rather different thing from SL ratings. My scores are calculated based on the opinions of positively rated people | |
| Dale Glass: | yep | |
| Dale Glass: | negative ratings would get red nametags | |
| Very Susanti notices Dale is 100 | ||
| Benjamin Linden: | lol | |
| Dale Glass: | right, your own rating is always 100 | |
| Dale Glass: | it goes like this: | |
| Fremont Cunningham: | How is 'gaming' of this system prevented? | |
| Benjamin Linden: | I have a few comments | |
| Dale Glass: | your own: 100. Your direct rating on somebody: +/-10. The opinion of that person, if their rating is positive is +/-1. And goes on for another level with +/- 0.1 | |
| Dale Glass: | hmm? | |
| Benjamin Linden: | just in terms of UI, color-coding the entire nametag probably is a bit much, we could probably come up with a smaller icon or symbol that changes color. also, some people will probably be opposed to nametags getting any bigger than they are | |
| Dale Glass: | gaming is prevented because ratings aren't global, you decide who to trust | |
| Dale Glass: | I was thinking about something like that, yes. Whole nametag was the initial easiest option | |
| Tao Takashi: | they could game my trust ;-) but ok, it's harder :) | |
| Dale Glass: | as you can see in the second one, there are several rating types, it could be desirable to show them all if they exist | |
| Benjamin Linden: | right, for proof of concept it makes sense | |
| Very Susanti: | interesting idea but who is the system of record for this rating data? I mean that is the the real issue with pluggins, trusting the vendors | |
| Dale Glass: | what do you mean? | |
| Benjamin Linden: | so I only see ratings that I've given other people? | |
| Dale Glass: | it works like this: | |
| Dale Glass: | you rate Alice positively. Alice's score is 10 for you now | |
| Very Susanti: | I mean I could do alot from a pluggin, empty your Lindens to my account | |
| Dale Glass: | Alice rates Bob positively, Bob's score is now 1 for you | |
| Dale Glass: | Bob rates Eve negatively, Eve now appears as -0.1 | |
| Very Susanti: | I mean there should be a certification process or something, that is the hard part about pluggins | |
| Very Susanti: | making them is usually the easy part | |
| Dale Glass: | you need to have a path to a person to get a score for them. All of them add up and you get the result | |
| Benjamin Linden: | Dale, where are the ratings stored? | |
| Dale Glass: | my database | |
| Benjamin Linden: | is it another table in the database? | |
| Very Susanti: | kind of a trust network? | |
| Dale Glass: | I run my own DB server for it | |
| Very Susanti: | an ontology of sorts? | |
| Tao Takashi: | if something wants to access your Lindens it should ask you beforehand like scripts do | |
| Dale Glass: | I have HUDs that query it with llHTTPRequest | |
| Dale Glass: | anybody wants one? | |
| Benjamin Linden: | it queries your database Dale? | |
| Dale Glass: | the system is already working and has hundreds of users. I've got a HUD for using it, but that's somewhat inconvenient, so I decided to make a viewer-based version as well | |
| Dale Glass: | yeah, it's an avatar scanner | |
| Benjamin Linden: | I'd love a copy to play with | |
| Dale Glass: | when it sees somebody it sends a request to my server and asks for their score | |
| Update Server: | Dale Glass is offering you 'TrustNet Scanner'. This is attempt 1 of 3 that can be made in a week. See http://daleglass.wordpress.com/trustnet/trustnet-scanner/#give_copy for more infor | |
| Dale Glass: | here you go, then :-) | |
| Update Server owned by Dale Glass gave you 'TrustNet HUD 1.0' ( http://slurl.com/secondlife/Sprawler/201/60/101 ). | ||
| Squirrel Wood: | I bet there is no rating for tail floofyness :p | |
| Benjamin Linden: | thanks Dale | |
| TrustNet HUD 1.0 say, You haven't rated anybody yet, so no scores can be calculated. Give at least one rating to start getting scores. | ||
| TrustNet HUD 1.0 say, See this for more information on how TrustNet ratings work: http://daleglass.wordpress.com/trustnet/ | ||
| Very Susanti: | if ratings were part of the agent profile from the beginning and not querried from the server when you loaded profiles I wonder if they would still be arround | |
| Dale Glass: | it's an avatar scanner, you click a name in the list and select an action | |
| Dale Glass: | click "give copy" to make the server send that person the latest version of the scanner | |
| Benjamin Linden: | can I see other people's ratings too, or just mine? | |
| Benjamin Linden: | I take it this doesn't aggregate ratings | |
| Dale Glass: | at the time you only see scores from your point of view | |
| Very Susanti: | I would like a hud Dale if you don't mind | |
| Very Susanti: | do you have the rating algorithm documented somewhere? | |
| Dale Glass: | yep | |
| Dale Glass: | sec... | |
| Dale Glass: | here you go, with graphs: http://daleglass.net/images/screenshots/rate_001.jpg | |
| Dale Glass: | err | |
| Dale Glass: | darn copy/paste | |
| Dale Glass: | http://daleglass.net/tikiwiki/tiki-index.php?page=HowTrustNetWorks | |
| Benjamin Linden: | Dale, in the window where you set the rating, what does "Local" mean? | |
| Dale Glass: | means the rating would be for your use only | |
| Dale Glass: | by default other people can rely on your ratings | |
| Dale Glass: | the idea is: I rate my friends positively. If my friends say, get griefed, they rate the jerk negatively | |
| Dale Glass: | then if I come near him I automatically know some of my friends gave him a negative score | |
| Dale Glass: | you can ask the server for details on that | |
| Benjamin Linden: | I thought you only saw your own ratings? | |
| Dale Glass: | checking "local" would prevent that, your rating would be for your use only | |
| Dale Glass: | you only see ratings from your point of view, which is different | |
| Squirrel Wood: | So you have public and private ratings | |
| Dale Glass: | think Amazon: You tell it what books you like, it recommends you things to read | |
| Very Susanti: | hmmm I have always been kinda concerned about rating systems they tend to group people in cliques | |
| Dale Glass: | but you can't check what any given user has read | |
| Very Susanti: | local rating systems may increase the isolation of social networks | |
| Very Susanti: | it would be aninteresting study | |
| Benjamin Linden: | on Amazon you can see the aggregate rating people have given something (along with individual reviews) | |
| Benjamin Linden: | is that what you would like this to do? | |
| Very Susanti: | I had a friend in grad school who does political science who does research in this kind of thing | |
| Dale Glass: | no, not like that | |
| Dale Glass: | it's like book recommendations | |
| Dale Glass: | you tell the system who you like and don't | |
| Dale Glass: | based on that, it tries to calculate who you might like or not | |
| Very Susanti: | I would prefer to see a rating systems for stores and services not people | |
| Dale Glass: | the opinions of random people you're not related to aren't taken into account | |
| Dale Glass: | if it's hard to understand, here's how to do what it does manually: | |
| LifeFactory Writer: | /so sorry.... | |
| Dale Glass: | when you see somebody new, IM your friends list and ask "anybody met this guy before?" | |
| Dale Glass: | then they'd IM their friends in turn, and those their friends, and all report back to you | |
| Very Susanti: | that is one way to make friends life, jump in their lap and see what happens | |
| Tao Takashi: | here's my blog post from back then about trustnet, btw: http://taotakashi.wordpress.com/2006/12/24/taking-a-stroll-over-the-scripters-trade-show/ | |
| LifeFactory Writer: | /Ha! | |
| Dale Glass: | so you calculate a score: opinions of friends are worth more than those of friends of friends | |
| LifeFactory Writer: | /I have heard that wil get me in trouble! | |
| LifeFactory Writer: | /I am so sorry! | |
| Benjamin Linden: | this is very interesting Dale, I'll read through your Wiki page so I can understand it better | |
| Tao Takashi: | wow, it was back in December, time runs again.. | |
| Very Susanti: | before my rez day | |
| Squirrel Wood: | The Hedgetorley has landed ^^ | |
| Benjamin Linden: | ah there's Torley | |
| Torley Linden: | Hahah hey everyone. :) | |
| Tao Takashi: | and I will also run again.. :) next office hour :) | |
| Very Susanti: | how does this scale? how many hops deep to you go? | |
| Torley Linden: | How's everyone? | |
| Tao Takashi: | thanks for hosting, Benjamin! :) | |
| Tao Takashi: | Hi Torley :) | |
| Benjamin Linden: | thanks for coming everyone! | |
| Very Susanti: | Hi Torley | |
| Tao Takashi: | and see you all soon! | |
| Squirrel Wood: | me? doing fine XD | |
| Dale Glass: | your direct ratings, then your friend's opinions, then their friends'. Stops there | |
| Benjamin Linden: | Dale, we can discuss your ratings system more on Thursday if you'd like | |
| Dale Glass: | each level counts for 1/10 of the previous one | |
| Torley Linden: | Ohhh was this talk about TrustNet? | |
| Squirrel Wood: | 't was once again a very interesting hour ^^ | |
| Dale Glass: | sure | |
| Benjamin Linden: | I'll try to read your wiki page before then | |
| Dale Glass: | yep | |
| Fremont Cunningham: | Hi Torley | |
| Torley Linden: | hiii :) | |
| LifeFactory Writer: | /Hello :) | |
| LifeFactory Writer: | /Thank you for letting me sit in. | |
| Very Susanti: | bye all | |
| Torley Linden: | Ben and I are off to a meeting, take care everyone. :) | |
| Benjamin Linden: | thanks for coming LifeFactory | |
| LifeFactory Writer: | /I did have an interface question....about translation...next time :) | |
| Dale Glass: | later :-) | |
| Benjamin Linden: | next office hours are Thursday at 3pm | |
| Benjamin Linden: | take care everybody! | |
