User:Benjamin Linden/Office Hours/2007 Jul 17

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Transcript of Benjamin Linden's office hours:

[10:10] Iridium Linden: Yay, Ben!!
[10:10] Wyn Galbraith doesn't have a headset.
[10:10] Saijanai Kuhn: however it is spelled...
[10:10] Benjamin Linden: hi folks
[10:10] Benjamin Linden: apologies for the delay, our network went down
[10:10] Squirrel Wood: Right now I see people speaking but hear not a single word. yet normal sounds work perfectly
[10:11] Benjamin Linden: ok let's get started
[10:11] Benjamin Linden: here's a link to the agenda
[10:11] Benjamin Linden: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Bug_triage/UI_Agenda
[10:11] Squirrel Wood: Second Life 1.18.0 (127) Jul 12 2007 17:01:36 (Second Life Voice First Look) is what I use
[10:11] Wyn Galbraith just noticed an option on the chat history that says "show muted text"
[10:11] Stephany Linden: Squirrel: And you have 127, w/ voice enabled, and audio output set to your headset?
[10:11] Torley Linden: Heya Ben! Glad you're here! =D
[10:11] Iridium Linden: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-1761
[10:11] Wyn Galbraith: Sounds like an oxymoron
[10:11] Iridium Linden: Votes: 5 - Group Invite Suggestion--add 'view profile' to invite dialog box
[10:11] Squirrel Wood: like I said: I hear normal sounds.
[10:12] Daedalus Young: 1761 sounds useful to me
[10:12] Dzonatas Sol tested VWR-1761... it works
[10:12] Torley Linden: I like being able to view profiles (speaking generally)... sometimes it's too clunky...
[10:12] Saijanai Kuhn: Big no on the next one. Logging for voice
[10:12] Squirrel Wood: relogging real quick
[10:12] Stephany Linden: Squirell: and 127 w/ voice actively on?
[10:12] Squirrel Wood: Aye.#
[10:12] Stephany Linden: ok
[10:13] Benjamin Linden: sorry is everyone looking at VWR-1761?
[10:13] Benja Kepler: VWR-1761 has a patch, but only for EN-US. Will the patch for all the other languages be done first?
[10:13] Stephany Linden: yes
[10:13] Iridium Linden: Hiya, Stephany.
[10:13] Iridium Linden: :)
[10:13] Wyn Galbraith is.
[10:13] Wyn Galbraith: wb Squirrel.
[10:13] Dzonatas Sol: VWR-1761, good to import.. tested.
[10:13] Benjamin Linden: this sounds like a great idea
[10:14] Torley Linden: OK, good idea...
[10:14] Kooky Jetaime: Group info would be good too
[10:14] Benjamin Linden: I would like to suggest that when people submit patches with visual changes to the UI that they also include a screenshot of the change
[10:14] Torley Linden: Ben, that's a great idea, for people who have a hard time visualizing especially.
[10:14] Iridium Linden: So we've imported that one?
[10:14] Wyn Galbraith: Someone is generating some static.
[10:14] Torley Linden: It'd communicate those things at a glance.
[10:14] Benjamin Linden: this will make it much quicker to assess the change and decide if something needs to be tweaked
[10:14] Benjamin Linden: right Torley
[10:14] Torley Linden: Yes, I'll import this right now.
[10:14] Feep Larsson: That would be worth putting on the wiki...
[10:15] Benjamin Linden: I'll make a note to talk to Rob about this
[10:15] Iridium Linden: Yes, Feep.
[10:15] Stephany Linden: someone has a hot fizzy mic :)
[10:15] Neuro Linden: ah the joys of voice :)
[10:15] Benjamin Linden: I muted my sound :-)
[10:15] Torley Linden: Benjamin: Yeah, would be nice to put that clearly in the contributor info section.
[10:15] Iridium Linden: lol
[10:15] Stephany Linden: indeed
[10:15] Torley Linden: My sound is muted too.
[10:15] Wyn Galbraith nods, "Staticy."
[10:15] Iridium Linden: Mine too.
[10:15] Benjamin Linden: so let's go ahead and import this one
[10:15] Stephany Linden: benja?
[10:15] Wyn Galbraith has no headset.
[10:15] Benja Kepler: with just one language?
[10:15] Benjamin Linden: we'll circle back with the filer to get a screenshot if necessary
[10:16] Torley Linden: Benjamin: *imported*!
[10:16] Torley Linden: I can add a comment asking for a screenshot if you want?
[10:16] Iridium Linden: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-1752
[10:16] Benjamin Linden: Benja, we have a process for getting new strings localized
[10:16] Feep Larsson: I think we're going to have to import fixes in just one language, since most Open Sourcers don't know all the supported languages!
[10:16] Dzonatas Sol: I can upload a screenshot
[10:16] Iridium Linden: Votes: 0 - Change Request: Change double click on object in inventory to wear (rather than properties)
[10:16] Benjamin Linden: this should kick that off
[10:16] Torley Linden: Great, thanks Dzonatas.
[10:16] Torley Linden: Teamwork. :)
[10:16] Benja Kepler: ok, just wondered
[10:16] Dzonatas Sol me makes note
[10:16] Benjamin Linden: Torley, commenting would be great. thanks!
[10:17] Daedalus Young: yes, sounds good, makes sense, you double-click an icon on your desktop to open the app too, not to change its properties
[10:17] Squirrel Wood: 1752 I'd like to see an option for that in the perfs so I can set it to do what I prefer
[10:17] Dzonatas Sol: it looks like a little i next to the ? over the parner
[10:17] Benja Kepler: (when voice was on BTW who was the Scotsman?)
[10:17] Saijanai Kuhn: hmmm. SL not registering plug and play USB headset restarting
[10:17] Benjamin Linden: I agree, this makes sense
[10:17] Kitty Barnett: I don't like that one at all :o unless you can tell when an attachment should be worn and when rezzed other than the attach point
[10:18] Benjamin Linden: although I thought it worked this way already
[10:18] Torley Linden: VWR-1752 may have some side effects...
[10:18] Benjamin Linden: hmm it seems to for me
[10:18] Saijanai Kuhn: the default should be as it is now. It is a clear violation of user interface principles to do somthing so drastic so easilty
[10:18] Torley Linden: I'm thinking that there are other inventory item types which double-click should behave similarly for...
[10:18] Daedalus Young: yes, not all objects you'd want attaching
[10:18] Neuro Linden: Saijanai: try disabling voice in preferences, clicking apply, then re-enabling voice
[10:18] Squirrel Wood: I'd like the option to choose what doubleclick does in the prefs ^^
[10:18] Torley Linden: The catch with VWR-1752 might be that, it should only attach if it already has an attach point specified... remember the old "boxhead" debacle?
[10:18] Daedalus Young agrees with Squirrel
[10:19] Dzonatas Sol: 1752 is about making it a default to wear
[10:19] Torley Linden: People might double-click their houses and accidentally wear them...
[10:19] Benjamin Linden: oh this is for objects specifically
[10:19] Kitty Barnett: and landmarks
[10:19] Benjamin Linden: yeah, how would it know if it's clothes?
[10:19] Iridium Linden wouldn't mind wearing her house, hehe.
[10:19] Neuro Linden: torley: admit it, you've worn a condo lately
[10:19] Torley Linden: Kitty -- I wish that double-clicking landmarks would teleport you.
[10:19] Torley Linden: Neuro: I admit!
[10:19] Wyn Galbraith has worn a boat.
[10:19] Iridium Linden: It was pink and green!
[10:19] Benjamin Linden: actually, we're working on that Torley!
[10:20] Torley Linden: OMG!!!
[10:20] Benjamin Linden: (doubleclicking landmarks to tp)
[10:20] Torley Linden: Coco and I were just talking about that the other day Ben.
[10:20] Kooky Jetaime: No matter whats done, the experiance should be consistent. Double Click should either activate the item, or bring up properties. Not do both, depending on the type
[10:20] Iridium Linden: Oh, nice!
[10:20] Saijanai Kuhn: again, it should be an optional change. The current behavior is the expected behavior
[10:20] Kitty Barnett: my mouse has a nasty habbit of double-clickling when it shouldn't so *pouts* lol... Nicholaz added a patch for landmarks in 1752 btw
[10:20] Dzonatas Sol: 1752 brings up a good point that it should be customizable, but I'm not sure if this is the right way to do it as a default
[10:20] Wyn Galbraith wants a whole clothing line of Torley Textures.
[10:20] Torley Linden: =)
[10:20] Feep Larsson: I agree with Saijanai--it's a pretty drastic action.
[10:20] Squirrel Wood: anyone with voice heard me?
[10:20] Stephany Linden: yes
[10:21] Wyn Galbraith: Yes
[10:21] Benjamin Linden: if it's a known "type" (wuch as a landmark) then it makes sense to have a default (doubleclick) action that is specific to that object type
[10:21] Iridium Linden: I did.
[10:21] Saijanai Kuhn: yep. Was that your real voice?
[10:21] Squirrel Wood: nope
[10:21] Iridium Linden: kk, so where are we with this one?
[10:21] Squirrel Wood: I just feed the stereo mix to sl ^^
[10:21] Stephany Linden: so we are still on 1752?
[10:21] Iridium Linden: Yes.
[10:21] Saijanai Kuhn weeps quietly about hte romance nipped in the bud...
[10:21] Kooky Jetaime: Drastic as it may be, sometimes drastic is needed. Add a "One Time Popup" that illustrates the change / explains that when you double click something it is activated in accordance with the type, Notecards Open, Clothes get worn, Objects get attached.
[10:21] Benjamin Linden: yes, I'm leaning toward not taking this one
[10:21] Benjamin Linden: other opinions?
[10:22] Stephany Linden: I agree ben
[10:22] Dzonatas Sol: I can add 1752 to the test vierwer for people to download and try
[10:22] Daedalus Young: or you'd need to add an inventory type
[10:22] Iridium Linden: Hmm, that's an idea. Then see how many votes it gets?
[10:22] Daedalus Young: specifically for attachments
[10:22] Saijanai Kuhn: keep actions thte same, but allow a change in preferences if desired
[10:22] Torley Linden: I lean towards not taking it either -- because I feel there's a broader scope here which should be considered.
[10:22] Wyn Galbraith: Defaults should be left working as they are though, as Saijanai said.
[10:22] Torley Linden: We had problems in the past where it was TOO EASY to wear objects... by right-clicking and "Wear" when they were rezzed...
[10:22] Benjamin Linden: ok let's mark this as won't fix with the reason that we cannot accurately predict what effect attaching the object will have
[10:22] Torley Linden: And history --
[10:22] Dzonatas Sol: agreed
[10:22] Benjamin Linden: ok great, next up
[10:22] Torley Linden: Aura remedied that partially by changing the default attach point from head to right hand.
[10:23] Benjamin Linden: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-1076
[10:23] Wyn Galbraith: Some of us might be use to it working this way. I wish there was a popup that said where an object will attach before you wear it.
[10:23] Kooky Jetaime: blockheads are just that though...
[10:23] Wyn Galbraith: Thank goodness for that change, Torley.
[10:23] Torley Linden: =)
[10:23] Torley Linden: Ah yes, VWR-1076 has many suggestions, some already done and implemented by our Voice Team.
[10:23] Torley Linden: Great to have Stephany here, speaking of. =o)
[10:23] Squirrel Wood: needs to be re-evaluated now that the comm window has been changed
[10:24] Iridium Linden: Votes: 110 - Meta-Issue: Usability suggestions for new voice/chat Communicate window
[10:24] Dzonatas Sol: 1076 is a meta issue, is it justified to leave open?
[10:24] Benjamin Linden: yes, lots of lindens today! :-
[10:24] Benjamin Linden: :-)
[10:24] Iridium Linden: Right, I think we should resolve. We need more specific info.
[10:24] Torley Linden: VWR-1076 is a "Meta-Issue", meaning that everything within won't necessarily get done; it's more of a place for discussion to flesh out stuff and get feedback as time goes on.
[10:24] Torley Linden: Rob Linden will be adding a dedicated "Meta" state, he mentioned.
[10:24] Benjamin Linden: no, let's not resolve it
[10:24] Iridium Linden: kk
[10:24] Benjamin Linden: this is a tracking task
[10:25] Dzonatas Sol: meta issues are good ones to start sub-tasks for real implementation =)
[10:25] Iridium Linden: Shall we encourage the reporter to revisit?
[10:25] Benjamin Linden: we are pulling feedback from the linked issues into our iterations of the voice chat UI
[10:25] Saijanai Kuhn: Benja I think you're producing static
[10:25] Iridium Linden: kk
[10:25] Benja Kepler: oops
[10:25] Benja Kepler: turned it off
[10:25] Benjamin Linden: so we'll skip this for now, unless there are specific sub-tasks in here people want to discuss
[10:25] Iridium Linden: kk
[10:25] Torley Linden: History: the "Meta-Issue" stuff came out of a need for Residents to discuss related stuff not particularly related to a single issue, but connected to multiple ones.
[10:26] Iridium Linden: Votes: 110 - Meta-Issue: Usability suggestions for new voice/chat Communicate window
[10:26] Iridium Linden: sorry, error.
[10:26] Benjamin Linden: but I think we should move on until Voice has reached some stasis
[10:26] Iridium Linden: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-489
[10:26] Squirrel Wood: 489... YES! Please! ^^
[10:26] Benjamin Linden: many of these issues are being addressed as we speak
[10:26] Torley Linden: This can likely be resolved when Voice is out of First Look.
[10:26] Daedalus Young: 489 is linked to https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-1065
[10:26] Iridium Linden: Votes: 51 - Multiple attachments per attachment point
[10:26] Daedalus Young: 1065 is -more- attachments points
[10:26] Squirrel Wood: Furries need those badly. and anyone else too ^^
[10:26] Saijanai Kuhn: I know people want to wear more than one ring etc.
[10:26] Torley Linden: VWR-489 reminds me of why we don't have a neck attach point, hehe. ;)
[10:26] Torley Linden: Yes, furs vote strongly for these. It was a trend in the old Feature Voting Tool too.
[10:27] Benjamin Linden: I don't know what the technical ramifications of this are, does anyone else?
[10:27] Torley Linden: I don't know Benjamin, Richard could say though.
[10:27] Saijanai Kuhn: seems a no-brainer except for the technical issues...
[10:27] Benjamin Linden: is there an existing internal jira task for this?
[10:27] Torley Linden: Benjamin, I think -- let me see.
[10:27] Squirrel Wood: I wouldn't classify this as UI thing neccessarily as attach points aren't exactly an UI thing?
[10:27] Benjamin Linden: I do think there could be some usability concerns with this
[10:27] Dzonatas Sol: 52 votes, i suggest to import as-is
[10:28] Iridium Linden: That's an awful lot of votes.
[10:28] Wyn Galbraith: 53 now.
[10:28] Daedalus Young: no, it's an avatar issue, but with added UI windows or something to tell you how much attachments you have on
[10:28] Torley Linden: Also a general reminder that we haven't really been importing "New Feature" requests from the Issue Tracker unless they're closer to being actionable,
[10:28] Torley Linden: e.g., if we had an avatar enhancement project.
[10:28] Benjamin Linden: like how do you manage multiple objects connecting to the same point? do the attachment points have different orientations, etc?
[10:28] Torley Linden: Benjamin: It's what I wonder about too...
[10:28] Saijanai Kuhn: perhaps a slightly different default pos?
[10:29] Torley Linden: New Feature proposals should be accompanied with detailed explanations of how the implemenation will work.
[10:29] Squirrel Wood: 1481 - this prevents modable sculpty stuff from being sold as one can easily screenshot / steal the sculpt texture if the items are set mod ok
[10:29] Benjamin Linden: I think the agenda is slightly out of order
[10:29] Torley Linden: Otherwise, "it's a nice idea but can't be agreed upon as to how we will work forward".
[10:29] Benjamin Linden: because this is a feature request showing up under bug reports
[10:29] Iridium Linden: this is how the script fed it.
[10:29] Benjamin Linden: hmm, we should go back and doublecheck it Iridium
[10:30] Iridium Linden: Oh, weird.
[10:30] Torley Linden: Yeah... we should focus on bugs IMHO...
[10:30] Dzonatas Sol: so we need to make a sub-task on it for design specs?
[10:30] Benjamin Linden: yes, Dznonatas
[10:30] Benjamin Linden: there may already be a spot on the wiki for avatar enhancements, I'm not sure
[10:31] Benjamin Linden: but if there isn't this would be a great time to add one so people can start commenting on what their needs are related to this
[10:31] Torley Linden: The historical problem with feature requests like this is it's exceedingly hard to agree on "how it should work" so Lindens ultimately need to have a clear idea (and resources) of how to move forth with it. I think this is very unlikely to do until we've committed to an avatar improvement project with numerous other related wishes to consider.
[10:31] Dzonatas Sol makes notes of it
[10:31] Benjamin Linden: thanks Dzonatas!
[10:31] Torley Linden: It is a very big change, taken in perspective.
[10:31] Benjamin Linden: let's change the status on this to needs more info
[10:31] Benja Kepler: Torley, is that because some people don't know how things are supposed to work?
[10:32] Wyn Galbraith: good points
[10:32] Torley Linden: Benja: Partially, yes.
[10:32] Saijanai Kuhn: Perhaps with some clarification in the comments that everyone likes the idea but...
[10:32] Torley Linden: But also because stuff like this leads to feature creep...
[10:32] Benjamin Linden: I do think there are design implications
[10:32] Torley Linden: e.g., "Hey! Wait, if you're gonna add this, also add... that!"
[10:32] Benjamin Linden: that need to be thought through
[10:32] Benjamin Linden: Torley, can you resolve as Needs More Info with a comment to that effect?
[10:32] Wyn Galbraith: I've only really wished for two attachments at the same point, or maybe just more points for attachment, hand wrist, forearm, elbow, etc.
[10:33] Iridium Linden: Next one is feature too. Weird.
[10:33] Torley Linden: Sure thing Benjamin.
[10:33] Saijanai Kuhn: One thing I've seen is that short comments that are TOO short make it seem like a brush off
[10:33] Daedalus Young: or easy translation between attachment points
[10:33] Wyn Galbraith: eyelid, so we can attach really loooong lashes.
[10:33] Torley Linden: Saijanai: Like which?
[10:33] Iridium Linden: Votes: 51 - Multiple attachments per attachment point
[10:33] Wyn Galbraith bats eyes.
[10:33] Iridium Linden: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-747
[10:33] Iridium Linden: Let's skip to that one.
[10:33] Daedalus Young: if you have prim hair on and want to wear a hat, so the hat attaches to another point, but translates correctly at once
[10:33] Saijanai Kuhn: can't think of any off hand. Maybe just the "needs more info" variety without clarification
[10:34] Benjamin Linden: Iridium are you skipping ahead because these are feature requests?
[10:34] Daedalus Young: 747 we talked about at the general triage yesterday
[10:34] Squirrel Wood: 1481 - this prevents modable sculpties / sculpted avatars from being sold as one can easily screenshot / steal the sculpt texture if the items are set mod ok - wouldn't see this as feature request
[10:34] Iridium Linden: Yes
[10:35] Iridium Linden: I am, Ben.
[10:35] Iridium Linden: Trying to get to bugs.
[10:35] Dzonatas Sol: 747 was left open
[10:35] Iridium Linden: And looking at my script.
[10:35] Benjamin Linden: this texture resizing one is an interesting problem
[10:35] Stephany Linden: I don't see a comment on 747 from general triage - what was the discussion there?
[10:35] Dzonatas Sol: there was talk about lossless textures... but it is still talk
[10:35] Benjamin Linden: Stephany the discussion notes are probably on the wiki
[10:36] Stephany Linden: ok - thanks Dzonatas!
[10:36] Dzonatas Sol: Soft Linden has some details
[10:36] Benjamin Linden: I suggested adding a checkbox to the texture previewer that would preserve aspect ratio or not
[10:36] Benjamin Linden: and a warning that your texture will be resized on upload if it's not a powers-of-two dimension
[10:36] Kooky Jetaime: ((Lvis, you may want to detatch the sheidls, I don't think anyone here is gonna shoot ya))
[10:36] Wyn Galbraith: Good idea Benjamin.
[10:36] Daedalus Young: that would be nice
[10:36] Torley Linden: *returns to this window*
[10:37] Dzonatas Sol: We thought about maybe an extra L$5 on lossless images.. (my suggestion) other want to just enable the option. It would solve issues like this where minor differences occur
[10:37] Benjamin Linden: I'll follow up with Rob on this and add my ideas to the issue tracker. I'm pretty sure we have some internal bugs for this too
[10:37] Torley Linden: Ah yes I remember VWR-747.
[10:37] Benjamin Linden: hey Bridie!
[10:37] Benjamin Linden: the gangs all here!
[10:37] Benjamin Linden: :-)
[10:37] Torley Linden: Heya Bridie! =)
[10:38] Benja Kepler: hi Bridie, nice trainers
[10:38] Iridium Linden: Can everyone refresh their Agenda wiki page?
[10:38] Torley Linden: Yes Benjamin, we sure do.
[10:38] Benjamin Linden: Torley, we have some internal issues related to 747 right?
[10:38] Wyn Galbraith: Linden Mania!
[10:38] Benjamin Linden: ok let's link this up later
[10:38] Torley Linden: Related VWR-192 links to one internally.
[10:38] Torley Linden: We should clarify the "powers of two" thing, it causes undue confusion for just about every newcomer who handles textures.
[10:38] Benjamin Linden: I agree Torley
[10:38] Kitty Barnett: some removed were things that were changed inconsistently though, like inventory minize used to be there, then it just wasn't anymore
[10:38] Iridium Linden: So how are we marking 747?
[10:38] Torley Linden: They go, "Hey, I just uploaded a picture, why's it squished?!!?"
[10:39] Iridium Linden: Will visit later?
[10:39] Saijanai Kuhn: I did that the first time as well, and I should know better
[10:39] Benjamin Linden: Iridium, let's leave it as-is for now
[10:39] Torley Linden: Richard and Leyla know more about this...
[10:39] Iridium Linden: kk, https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-1159
[10:39] Benjamin Linden: we'll follow up with Rob and Richard and Torley may have a suggestion for where to link this
[10:39] Iridium Linden: I'm fixing the agenda as we go, so please refresh.
[10:39] Torley Linden: Thanks Iridium!
[10:39] Benjamin Linden: thanks iridium!
[10:40] Neuro Linden: :)
[10:40] Benjamin Linden: hmm this doesn't seem like UI bug
[10:40] Torley Linden: I don't use Linux regularly so I don't know about VWR-1159.
[10:40] Torley Linden: Yeah... hrm... it's a protocol thang eh...
[10:41] Torley Linden: Internally last month, Aric said this needs to be looked at as part of "the linux process"...
[10:41] Dzonatas Sol: 1159 is more of an installer issue the UI?
[10:41] Saijanai Kuhn: is that a UI thing?
[10:41] Dzonatas Sol: *then
[10:41] Benjamin Linden: we need to change the component on this
[10:41] Daedalus Young: apparently Linux viewer not opening secondlife:// urls
[10:41] Benja Kepler: so, why did we lose VWR-394 from the agenda?
[10:41] Saijanai Kuhn: likewise with Mac, BTW
[10:41] Daedalus Young: works fine on my Mac, Sai
[10:42] Daedalus Young: 394 is skipped because it's not a bug
[10:42] Benjamin Linden: Benja, I think Iridium moved some stuff around since feature requests were showing up with the bugs
[10:42] Saijanai Kuhn: does it put them in the map? Thought it was supposed to TP
[10:42] Daedalus Young: puts it on the map
[10:42] Benjamin Linden: we want to get through bugs then move on to feature requests
[10:42] Iridium Linden: Yeah, please refresh.
[10:42] Daedalus Young: no direct tp
[10:42] Benja Kepler: ok - hard to keep up ;)
[10:42] Iridium Linden: I'm editing to keep us on bugs.
[10:42] Saijanai Kuhn: what is the proper behavior?
[10:42] Dzonatas Sol: 1159 is already imported
[10:42] Iridium Linden: just follow the links you're given here.
[10:42] Daedalus Young: which I like, I want it not to teleport me whenever I click a secondlife:// link
[10:42] Benjamin Linden: sorry, we'll figure out the jira filter problem before next week
[10:42] Torley Linden: How should we reclassify 1159?
[10:42] Iridium Linden: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-95
[10:43] Torley Linden: Internally we have a Viewer - Linux component but not externally.
[10:43] Iridium Linden: That's after 1159.
[10:43] Benjamin Linden: hmm, I'm not seeing a good component for it Torley
[10:43] Benjamin Linden: maybe it should be a Service bug instead of a Viewer bug?
[10:43] Torley Linden: Yeah, of those, User Interface actually seems to come closest since it limits usability of SLURLs.
[10:43] Torley Linden: It is a Viewer one tho because it's specific to Linux... and not server-side...
[10:44] Daedalus Young: VWR-95 could also be read as a new feature: trash can in object inventory
[10:44] Torley Linden: We can just leave it be for now.
[10:44] Torley Linden: Not a big deal. =o)
[10:44] Benjamin Linden: or Source Code
[10:44] Dzonatas Sol: put it as source code? for the installer issue. even though it is two bugs
[10:44] Saijanai Kuhn: What is the "proper" behavior of SURLs?
[10:44] Saijanai Kuhn: SLURLs
[10:44] Benjamin Linden: what's the question Saijanai?
[10:44] Torley Linden: Proper behavior of SLURLs: You open one in your browser, it shows you a grayed-out map where you click to teleport through.
[10:44] Torley Linden: Following that, it opens the world map in your viewer.
[10:44] Torley Linden: Highlighting a specific location which you can then teleport to.
[10:45] Daedalus Young: then it works fine on Mac indeed :)
[10:45] Saijanai Kuhn: OK, on the Mac, the browser opens a generic box with no map, and within SL, it appears to do nothing
[10:45] Benjamin Linden: are you saying Slurls don't work on your machine Saijanai?
[10:45] Saijanai Kuhn: Seems like
[10:45] Torley Linden: Saijanai: Yeah -- "generic box" is what's currently happening... :\ it's *supposed* to be a grayed-out map, that's also a bug until we improve the webmap I believe.
[10:45] Dzonatas Sol: updated to source code
[10:45] Saijanai Kuhn: Both with Safari 2, 3 beta and Firefox
[10:45] Torley Linden: Saijanai: Click the orange teleport button.
[10:46] Torley Linden: "teleport now"
[10:46] Torley Linden: That does nothing?
[10:46] Benjamin Linden: http://slurl.com/secondlife/Beaumont/161/178/46
[10:46] Benjamin Linden: what does clicking that do?
[10:46] Benjamin Linden: @Saijanai
[10:46] Saijanai Kuhn: get the viewer. The location has been put into the map, but no indication that its ready for TP without openint map
[10:47] Benjamin Linden: the map is open right Saijanai?
[10:47] Stephany Linden: yes
[10:47] Saijanai Kuhn: within game I get the proper behavior. We're talking about from webpages right?
[10:47] Iridium Linden: Please refresh your agenda.
[10:47] Benjamin Linden: you can use Slurls on the Web and in the Viewer
[10:47] Torley Linden: Saijanai: Yes, I believe there's an extensive article explaining how they work in the Knowledge Base.
[10:47] Benjamin Linden: Saijanai let's follow up on this offline
[10:47] Kooky Jetaime: Why use slurls when you can use secondlife://Sim/X/Y/Z ?
[10:47] Benjamin Linden: or at Thursday's meeting
[10:47] Torley Linden: OK, continuing onwards... =)
[10:47] Saijanai Kuhn: OK, its likely just confusion on my part, sorry
[10:48] Neuro Linden: slurls are a nice portal for people without the viewer installed
[10:48] Torley Linden: Kooky: Long story short, because not everyone has Second Life -- SLURLs are more useful to tell someone to download SL if they don't have it.
[10:48] Benjamin Linden: what's our next item Iridium?
[10:48] Neuro Linden: torley: snap
[10:48] Torley Linden: Hehe.
[10:48] Kooky Jetaime: Ok Iridum...that makes sense then.
[10:48] Iridium Linden: coming up.\
[10:48] Iridium Linden: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-882
[10:48] Kooky Jetaime: you too Torley :)
[10:49] Torley Linden: =)
[10:49] Iridium Linden: Votes: 7 - Group name showing as (???) in IM tabs and objects edit window
[10:49] Torley Linden: Hrm, that one I checked awhile back...
[10:49] Kooky Jetaime: 882 I've got first hand experiance with
[10:49] Torley Linden: and I didn't see a solid repro for it.
[10:49] Dzonatas Sol: 882, that happens when the info hasn't fully loaded?
[10:49] Kooky Jetaime: Its hard to repro, its so...intermitent
[10:49] Torley Linden: When I went to check those regions, the "(???)" were gone.
[10:49] Torley Linden: I'll leave a comment hoping for a better repro...
[10:49] Iridium Linden: Shall we mark "need solid repro?"
[10:49] Kooky Jetaime: I've had it show up in attached objects, land info, and even my Group list I believe.
[10:49] Iridium Linden: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-98
[10:49] Torley Linden: Yes Iridium.
[10:50] Kooky Jetaime: but it comes and goes
[10:50] Torley Linden: I'll mark it as "Needs More Info" and ask for SLURLs.
[10:50] Iridium Linden: Votes: 7 - camera spins on zoom
[10:50] Benjamin Linden: I don't see how we're going to tackle this without a repro
[10:50] Squirrel Wood: I saw that same thing with creator information ?
[10:50] Kooky Jetaime: (even within the group / sim that it happens)
[10:50] Dzonatas Sol: it may be a network issue, not UI
[10:50] Squirrel Wood: (unknown creator)
[10:50] Benjamin Linden: I'm getting bad IM lag
[10:50] Kooky Jetaime: Squirrel - I've seen <blank> for group info/creator before
[10:50] Daedalus Young: I see (???) in the new IM window often right after logging in, when thing are still loading
[10:51] Kooky Jetaime: usually I don't get (???) except for the group
[10:51] Kooky Jetaime: though I could use the group, had all my land rights and all.
[10:51] Torley Linden: I'm closing "VWR-882" with "Needs More Info" and leaving a comment.
[10:51] Wyn Galbraith: I've had that one happen to me.
[10:51] Iridium Linden: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-98
[10:51] Benjamin Linden: resolving, not closing right Torley?
[10:52] Iridium Linden: Votes: 7 - camera spins on zoom
[10:52] Dzonatas Sol: vwr-98 already imported
[10:52] Wyn Galbraith: I had a demo by a neighbor about the center of cut prims causing the problem.
[10:52] Kooky Jetaime: I'd give mine as a repro, but Dark City has closed its doors... so I don't know if they've changed the land group or not.
[10:52] Benjamin Linden: Dzonatas is right, this has been imported
[10:52] Benjamin Linden: good thing too, this is a pain
[10:52] Torley Linden: Er, yes Benjamin.
[10:53] Squirrel Wood: 607 - could that be related to black avatars on MACs ?
[10:53] Daedalus Young: center of cut prims is a separate issue too, I remember
[10:53] Torley Linden: Daedalus has included a video repro!
[10:53] Kooky Jetaime: Testing 123
[10:53] Kooky Jetaime: yep, definatly reproducable.
[10:53] Daedalus Young: repro on 98
[10:53] Torley Linden: Camera control -- that's something Richard would know a lot more about too.
[10:53] Benjamin Linden: what's the next issue?
[10:53] Torley Linden: VWR-98 is a very old bug I think.
[10:54] Wyn Galbraith: It is, Daedalus? Zooming in on the hollow side of a cut box for example the camera loses control and spins around or ends somewhere else.
[10:54] Benjamin Linden: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-607
[10:54] Squirrel Wood: 607 - could that be related to black avatars on MACs ?
[10:54] Torley Linden: OK VWR-607 isn't so much a UI issue as a general graphics rendering prob.
[10:54] Daedalus Young: ok, spinning is the same I think, but not being able to zoom in on the inside is different
[10:54] Wyn Galbraith: Zoom in on the uncut side of the same prim, no problem.
[10:54] Saijanai Kuhn: I learend not to touch certain graphics settings on the Mac due to that one
[10:54] Daedalus Young: 607 doesn't happen on my Intel Mac
[10:54] Torley Linden: There are a number of "black avatars" issues on Issue Tracker.
[10:54] Wyn Galbraith ponders that.
[10:54] Benjamin Linden: yes, this is a graphics problem
[10:55] Bridie Linden: From 1.15...
[10:55] Feep Larsson: Sounds like a driver issue...
[10:55] Benjamin Linden: I removed the UI component
[10:55] Squirrel Wood: happens with nvidia and ati cards I heard
[10:55] Zetetic Aubret: Doesn't happen for me either (macbook pro)
[10:55] Torley Linden: What we should safely do here is prescribe the usual troubleshooting steps and all those check out fine, we can ask our graphics devs to check it out deeper.
[10:55] Saijanai Kuhn: unfortunately Apple commisssions the graphcis drivers
[10:55] Feep Larsson: Yup...Although it could be a specific driver version; hard to tell
[10:56] Wyn Galbraith: And Intel chipsets which I have. I don't think it's dependent on the chipset since the person who demo'd it for me has a handbuilt system with the supported graphics.
[10:56] Feep Larsson: Doesn't happen on my MacBook Pro with ATI X1600..
[10:56] Torley Linden: I can import VWR-607 and ping some of our graphics devs about it. The issue has laid fallow for a month so I'll ping and ask for info.
[10:56] Benjamin Linden: it has a repro, let's go ahead and import it
[10:56] Kooky Jetaime: ...
[10:56] Torley Linden: (I'll do that first before importation, heh.)
[10:56] Benjamin Linden: thanks Torley!
[10:56] Torley Linden: NP!
[10:56] Dzonatas Sol: skip vwr-199, already imported
[10:56] Wyn Galbraith dittos the thanks.
[10:57] Benjamin Linden: thanks Dzonatas
[10:57] Benjamin Linden: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-699
[10:57] Benjamin Linden: this isn't really UI either, more performance
[10:57] Benjamin Linden: and it's been imported already
[10:58] Benjamin Linden: I'm just going to remove the UI component
[10:58] Iridium Linden: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-1191
[10:58] Torley Linden: Cool beans, we keep moving on!
[10:58] Benjamin Linden: Iridium's crackin the whip!
[10:58] Daedalus Young: 1191 needs an offline region to repro
[10:59] Stephany Linden: go iridium!
[10:59] Daedalus Young: I did capture it on video though when I first encountered it
[10:59] Benja Kepler: there's one to the north!
[10:59] Benjamin Linden: there is a video repro
[10:59] Dzonatas Sol: do we have an offline region currently?
[10:59] Benja Kepler: N of Beaumont
[10:59] Torley Linden: *watches video*
[10:59] Benjamin Linden: is this searching in the Search UI or searching on the map?
[10:59] Benja Kepler: Map
[10:59] Torley Linden: Searching on World Map.
[10:59] Benja Kepler: world map
[10:59] Torley Linden: The video is a clear repro.
[10:59] Torley Linden: =)
[10:59] Daedalus Young: searching the map
[10:59] Squirrel Wood pokes torley's IM window ^^
[11:00] Torley Linden: (Sorry can't get to IMs right now. :) )
[11:00] JayR Cela: http://www.tweaksrus.com/ you may have some luck with this web site for Video drivers
[11:00] Daedalus Young: thanks Torley :)
[11:00] Torley Linden: Thanks for doing that Daedalus...
[11:00] Benjamin Linden: yes, I see it now
[11:00] Benjamin Linden: nice video!
[11:00] Daedalus Young: thanks
[11:00] Torley Linden: Yeah!!
[11:00] Torley Linden: :D
[11:00] Iridium Linden: So import?
[11:00] Benjamin Linden: let's import it
[11:00] Iridium Linden: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-1191
[11:00] Torley Linden: Yeah this one should not happen, that's pretty clear to me.
[11:00] Iridium Linden: kewl
[11:00] Benjamin Linden: yes please!
[11:00] Torley Linden: Rock on.
[11:00] Torley Linden: *imports*
[11:01] Benjamin Linden: let's do one more then wrap up
[11:01] Iridium Linden: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-1191
[11:01] Iridium Linden: why does it keep doing that?
[11:01] Trinity Coulter: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-445
[11:01] Iridium Linden: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-889
[11:01] Sphere Mielziner: hello
[11:01] Iridium Linden: we're almost done.
[11:01] Iridium Linden: Only two more on this agenda.
[11:01] Sphere Mielziner: hello
[11:02] Iridium Linden: Let's do these two and look at 445 next week, yeah?
[11:02] Wyn Galbraith: Hello.
[11:02] Benjamin Linden: yeah let's just finish the agenda items
[11:02] Iridium Linden: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-1460
[11:02] Iridium Linden: That's the other one.
[11:02] Zetetic Aubret: 889 seems much more likely to be a render issue
[11:02] Iridium Linden: Right.
[11:02] Iridium Linden: That's what I was thinking.
[11:02] Torley Linden: Yeah...
[11:02] Iridium Linden: 1460 then?
[11:02] Benjamin Linden: agreed
[11:03] Benjamin Linden: but we should import it if it's repro
[11:03] Trinity Coulter: omg 1460... is a really good one
[11:03] Trinity Coulter: i have been burned by that before
[11:03] Torley Linden: I wonder if we actually support that graphics chip.
[11:03] Torley Linden: I don't know for sure offhand.
[11:03] Kitty Barnett: just needs can_resize set to true instead of false?
[11:03] Torley Linden: You know what, more people experiencing that should provide their system configs. (VWR-889)
[11:03] Iridium Linden: kk, so how do we want to mark this one?
[11:03] Zetetic Aubret: 1460 looks worth importing to me. Pretty straightforward.
[11:03] Torley Linden: I'll ask them for more info.
[11:04] Trinity Coulter: same with 445
[11:04] Iridium Linden: Marking as "needs more info."
[11:04] Trinity Coulter: same kind of fix
[11:04] Torley Linden: Thanks Iridium.
[11:04] Benjamin Linden: Torley are you going to resolve 889 as needs more info?
[11:04] Benjamin Linden: ok thanks guys
[11:04] Torley Linden: Yes I am Ben.
[11:04] Benjamin Linden: so what about 1460?
[11:04] Benjamin Linden: this seems like an easy fix
[11:04] Dzonatas Sol removed the Building (inworld) component from vwr-889
[11:05] Benjamin Linden: I think it's just truncating the string at an arbitrary length
[11:05] Iridium Linden: What did we do about 747 and 98?
[11:06] Benjamin Linden: Torley, did you import 1460? I think we could also link that internally to 4777
[11:06] Torley Linden: Iridium: 98 is already imported, a dev who knows about this further could look into it.
[11:06] Benjamin Linden: Iridium, let's talk about 747 afterwards
[11:06] Torley Linden: Good idea Benjamin. *imports*
[11:06] Benjamin Linden: I think there are other related bugs we can link up
[11:06] Iridium Linden: kk
[11:06] Benjamin Linden: alright folks we're out of time
[11:06] Benjamin Linden: awesome job today!
[11:07] Wyn Galbraith: Thanks for the great meeting guys.
[11:07] Torley Linden: Yeah thanks all for coming and helping us! =D
[11:07] Dzonatas Sol: thank you all for being here! woot!
[11:07] Benjamin Linden: we made it through a ton of bugs even after starting late
[11:07] Feep Larsson: Thanks, Benjamin et al!
[11:07] JayR Cela: thanks
[11:07] Iridium Linden: I'll figure out the agenda script issue and post next weeks agenda by close of business today./
[11:07] Torley Linden: We are getting better after each week, me hopes!
[11:07] Benjamin Linden: thanks Iridium! you rock as always!
[11:07] cincin Goodliffe: :) This is an interesting process to listen to..
[11:07] Torley Linden: w00t! Rawk on!
[11:07] Iridium Linden: Awww, thank you, Benjamin.
[11:08] Benjamin Linden: take care everybody!
[11:08] Torley Linden: Great dynamics of teamwork!
[11:08] Daedalus Young: bye!