User:Benjamin Linden/Office Hours/2007 Jun 21

Transcript of Benjamin Linden's office hours:

[15:00]	Wyn Galbraith:	Afternoon Benjamin.
[15:00]	Squirrel Wood:	Hey Ben ^^
[15:00]	Benjamin Linden:	hi guys!
[15:00]	Benjamin Linden:	how are you?
[15:00]	Wyn Galbraith:	Greet.
[15:01]	Wyn Galbraith:	Great too.
[15:01]	Wyn Galbraith is on the first look viewer.
[15:01]	Benjamin Linden:	glad to hear
[15:01]	Squirrel Wood:	The Prince of Mousethieves honors you, To visit here this day. So keep your larder door shut tight, Lock all your food away. O foolish ones, go check your store Of food so rich and fine. Be sure that I'll be back for more, Especially this wine.
[15:01]	Squirrel Wood:	^^
[15:02]	Wyn Galbraith:	LOL Squirrel.
[15:02]	Benjamin Linden:	good to see you again Saijanai
[15:02]	Benjamin Linden:	glad to hear you're using first look Wyn
[15:02]	Benjamin Linden:	is this the first time you've had a chance to play with it?
[15:03]	Saijanai Kuhn:	is this area voice enabled?
[15:03]	Wyn Galbraith:	Recently.
[15:03]	Benjamin Linden:	no I don't believe it is yet
[15:03]	Squirrel Wood:	Heh. I don't like using voice so I'm not the best of candidates to test it ^^
[15:03]	Wyn Galbraith:	No it's not voice enabled. I'm not really using the voice, but I must say, I don't like the chat history being attached to everything else.
[15:03]	Benjamin Linden:	that's being fixed Wyn
[15:03]	Wyn Galbraith:	Oh cool.
[15:03]	Benjamin Linden:	it will be a tear-out window like the other IM windows
[15:04]	Wyn Galbraith:	I've almost accidently said things in chat I meant to IM to Squirrel ;)
[15:04]	Wyn Galbraith:	Would have been embarassing, she knows what I mean.
[15:04]	Saijanai Kuhn:	this morning zero linden ended up giving commands to one f his bots over main chat
[15:04]	Benjamin Linden:	yeah I've noticed myself having the same tendency
[15:05]	Wyn Galbraith:	LOL
[15:05]	Squirrel Wood:	hehe
[15:05]	Squirrel Wood:	Are we talking about Prokofy Wyn?
[15:05]	Benjamin Linden:	I think it will take people a while to get used to the new UI
[15:05]	Saijanai Kuhn:	Jeeves more cucumbers lease...
[15:05]	Saijanai Kuhn:	or something
[15:05]	Wyn Galbraith:	It's like channels on MU*, I always mischan.
[15:05]	Benjamin Linden:	but what we're trying to do is make it more streamlined and easier for new users
[15:05]	Wyn Galbraith:	Yeah.
[15:05]	Wyn Galbraith:	And his sister, Julsomething.
[15:05]	Benjamin Linden:	hey Stephany :-)
[15:05]	Stephany Linden:	howdy
[15:06]	Squirrel Wood:	That chap that shoots out questions so fast you can't follow anything but the topic he tries to force onto everyone?
[15:06]	Wyn Galbraith:	Oh another Linden, Welcome. I collect bears you know ;)
[15:06]	otakup0pe Neumann:	hello everyone
[15:06]	Benjamin Linden:	I hope you have a bear, Stephany! :-)
[15:06]	Squirrel Wood:	Hellos Stephany ^^
[15:06]	otakup0pe Neumann:	I'll take a bear.
[15:06]	Stephany Linden:	I have one from ben
[15:06]	Wyn Galbraith:	I think he puts them in an object, wears it and then dumps them out.
[15:06]	Benjamin Linden:	the generic one!
[15:06]	Saijanai Kuhn:	No, was this morning at Zero Lindens place. Don't think that Whaiswasthereatthatpointanyway...
[15:06]	Wyn Galbraith can wait till it's filled out ;)
[15:06]	Stephany Linden:	no ben it had your little outfit spear
[15:06]	Benjamin Linden:	oh MY bear
[15:06]	Benjamin Linden:	:-)
[15:06]	Neovo Geesink:	Hello from Holland.
[15:07]	Stephany Linden:	YES
[15:07]	Stephany Linden:	hello holland
[15:07]	Benjamin Linden:	does anyone here not have my bear?
[15:07]	Wyn Galbraith:	I don't know if I got yours Benjamin.
[15:07]	Benjamin Linden:	I'm pretty sure I gave it to you Wyn but hang on
[15:07]	otakup0pe Neumann:	I'll take a bear ;)
[15:07]	Wyn Galbraith has a special place in the clouds for LLBears.
[15:07]	Saijanai Kuhn:	raises hand...
[15:07]	Wyn Galbraith:	Pathfinder started it.
[15:07]	Benjamin Linden:	so while I'm doing that
[15:07]	Neovo Geesink:	No voce in this region?
[15:07]	Wyn Galbraith:	What was Stephany's question?
[15:07]	Benjamin Linden:	Stephany is the program manager working on the Voice chat project
[15:07]	Squirrel Wood:	I'm not much of a collector here
[15:08]	Wyn Galbraith:	Ah.
[15:08]	Squirrel Wood:	Nice to meet you ^^
[15:08]	Stephany Linden:	I can't believe I let you say that ben ;)
[15:08]	Benjamin Linden:	so we've been working together on the user interface aspects
[15:08]	Wyn Galbraith:	I guess I better get a new headset.
[15:08]	Benjamin Linden:	and I'm sure she'd love to hear some of your early thoughts on using the first look viewer
[15:08]	Stephany Linden:	I would
[15:08]	Wyn Galbraith:	Oh I thought you said earthy thoughts
[15:08]	Stephany Linden:	or those
[15:08]	Benjamin Linden:	lol
[15:09]	Benjamin Linden:	well I'm in Seattle so I am a little granola
[15:09]	Wyn Galbraith:	Well, I don't know how much I'll use the voice.
[15:09]	otakup0pe Neumann:	thanks benjamin
[15:09]	otakup0pe Neumann:	gah. i wanted to stay but i have to leave now.
[15:09]	otakup0pe Neumann:	woo timing. it's 1800 where I am.
[15:10]	otakup0pe Neumann:	I'll get you next time, gadget !
[15:10]	Wyn Galbraith:	Thanks Benjamin. Only because I mute my system 90 percent of the time.
[15:10]	Stephany Linden:	ahhh
[15:10]	Wyn Galbraith:	So it might become a problem for me if I'm around people who are using it. I don't know.
[15:10]	Benjamin Linden:	Yes, I'm still debating on whether to do my office hours in voice
[15:10]	Wyn Galbraith:	If you could log the voice I'd see no problem.
[15:11]	Benjamin Linden:	I'm leaning against it because it's easier to keep track of multiple conversations in chat
[15:11]	Saijanai Kuhn:	squirril, could y ou stand up just for a sec so someone can see your dress?
[15:11]	Wyn Galbraith:	Exactly.
[15:11]	Benjamin Linden:	we would need a conch shell to pass around :-)
[15:11]	Benjamin Linden:	so people don't talk over each other
[15:11]	Stephany Linden:	I agree - I can't wait for speech-to-text
[15:11]	Stephany Linden:	small project
[15:11]	Very Susanti:	Hiya everyone
[15:11]	Benjamin Linden:	lol
[15:11]	Very Susanti:	I vote for voice
[15:11]	Benjamin Linden:	hi Very! good to see you again
[15:11]	Very Susanti:	and of course watching the chat too
[15:11]	Wyn Galbraith:	Squirrel suggested a soap box with a 30 second limit for questions, or a talking stick.
[15:11]	Stephany Linden:	yes
[15:11]	Very Susanti:	in case I am in the coffee shop
[15:12]	Very Susanti:	lol
[15:12]	Stephany Linden:	good point!
[15:12]	Very Susanti:	some times it works best if only the leader uses voice and we type
[15:12]	Very Susanti:	I have done meetings like that
[15:12]	Wyn Galbraith:	Like right now, allergies have got me by the throat and lungs, so talking actually creates coughing.
[15:12]	Benjamin Linden:	we've gotten a lot of feedback about the communication window being too big and not being able to separate the chat history window
[15:12]	Very Susanti:	of course it makes the chat log not usueable or postable
[15:12]	Stephany Linden:	very: and you felt meeting slike that worked better?
[15:12]	Benjamin Linden:	and we're working to address those points
[15:12]	Wyn Galbraith:	Oh yeah, it's too big :)
[15:13]	Stephany Linden:	what sort of meetings - more social, business?
[15:13]	Stephany Linden:	just curious :)
[15:13]	Saijanai Kuhn:	thanks
[15:13]	Very Susanti:	community rountables
[15:13]	Very Susanti:	moderated meetings
[15:14]	Stephany Linden:	thanks
[15:14]	Benjamin Linden:	Very, there's a seat over here if you'd like to join us :-)
[15:14]	Very Susanti:	what about some kind of truetype font
[15:14]	Stephany Linden:	I wonder if we'll see more of that...
[15:14]	Very Susanti:	haha there
[15:14]	Benjamin Linden:	what do you mean about the font, Very?
[15:14]	Wyn Galbraith:	On another VR venue I found voice to be confusing because every one tried talk at the same time and background noises would slip through.
[15:14]	Very Susanti:	looks blocky at the small size
[15:14]	Stephany Linden:	wyn: turn taking is a tough thing in VR
[15:15]	Stephany Linden:	it's a huge challenge
[15:15]	Stephany Linden:	"active speakers" was one attempt, w/ head indicators, to help
[15:15]	Stephany Linden:	but they still fall short I think
[15:15]	Very Susanti:	yeah voice has limitations in big gatherings
[15:15]	Wyn Galbraith nods, "No real visual clues."
[15:15]	Stephany Linden:	they don't stop overspeaking
[15:15]	Stephany Linden:	they SHOW it
[15:15]	Stephany Linden:	:)
[15:16]	Very Susanti:	there is a delay too, even if you are trying to be polite it takes time to get used to it
[15:16]	Stephany Linden:	yes
[15:16]	Squirrel Wood:	humm... I would suggest some sort of "talking stick" that the parcel/sim owner can activate that will only one person to speak ?
[15:16]	Stephany Linden:	good idea!
[15:16]	Very Susanti:	thinks back to talk
[15:16]	Very Susanti:	o
[15:16]	Stephany Linden:	I am personally annoyed by that especially :)
[15:16]	Stephany Linden:	we are re-examining permissions to try to improve them for parcel owners, etc.
[15:17]	Stephany Linden:	that could be one more way to tie visual cues and permissions in....
[15:17]	Stephany Linden:	*hijacking ben's office hours!*
[15:17]	Benjamin Linden:	I've been meaning to ask you about that, Stephany, it comes up a lot
[15:17]	Benjamin Linden:	no this is great -- we've been talking mostly about voice the past couple weeks
[15:17]	Stephany Linden:	hence the LONG feedback lists you bring back!
[15:17]	Squirrel Wood:	Mute all voice chatter except my friends ?
[15:17]	Stephany Linden:	YES - coming
[15:18]	Very Susanti listens only to myself
[15:18]	Benjamin Linden:	are we doing that? even in-world?
[15:18]	Saijanai Kuhn:	automute people with voice toggle stuck on...
[15:18]	Saijanai Kuhn:	loud music griefing
[15:18]	Squirrel Wood:	auto mute people with an average noise level above X dB ?
[15:18]	Stephany Linden:	these are great
[15:18]	Very Susanti:	how often are people really going to use voice in high volume uncontrollable venues
[15:18]	Benjamin Linden:	on Tuesday Saijanai had an interesting suggestion which was to add an indicator in the chatterbox that shows people who don't have PTT on
[15:18]	Wyn Galbraith:	That would be nice.
[15:18]	Stephany Linden:	that's tricky but we ARE working on volume things
[15:19]	Saijanai Kuhn:	if someone is "entertaining" everyone with their music, it takes forever to figure out who they are
[15:19]	Benjamin Linden:	so you could hunt them down and mute them :-)
[15:19]	Stephany Linden:	we recently got the thin voice client improved so volume-driven events may be easier than before
[15:19]	Benjamin Linden:	Stephany one thing I noticed is that I don't hear *myself* in my headset when I'm talking, so it's very hard to gauge how loud I am
[15:20]	Wyn Galbraith:	It's a tremendous challenge and one that won't make everyone happy and even those who want it won't be happy.
[15:20]	Benjamin Linden:	have we considered piping the speaker's voice back to the client?
[15:20]	Stephany Linden:	we are working on the set up and tuner wizard
[15:20]	Stephany Linden:	it is almost done
[15:20]	Stephany Linden:	maybe next release
[15:20]	Very Susanti:	that could be confusing though
[15:20]	Wyn Galbraith doesn't want to hear herself ;)
[15:20]	Saijanai Kuhn:	that causes a lot of echo if you don't have speakers. Probably needs to be optional...
[15:20]	Stephany Linden:	so you have a separate tool - right
[15:20]	Squirrel Wood:	I hate to hear myself talking delayed. It distracts me. I would suggest some form of local test mode to adjust the volume?
[15:20]	Stephany Linden:	so you DO NOT hear yourself most times unless you try
[15:20]	Stephany Linden:	squirrel: that's what it is
[15:21]	Wyn Galbraith nods and thinks that's fair.
[15:21]	Squirrel Wood:	^^
[15:21]	Stephany Linden:	then away it goes
[15:21]	Stephany Linden:	local volume feedback from you for set up and toggling
[15:21]	Wyn Galbraith nodnods.
[15:21]	Benjamin Linden:	oh so we are doing that
[15:21]	Stephany Linden:	just late :)
[15:21]	Stephany Linden:	yes
[15:21]	Saijanai Kuhn:	how about a viewer plugin that allows voice filters? I have Logic pro for the mac and several other vodors
[15:21]	Benjamin Linden:	that will be in the tuning wizard?
[15:21]	Stephany Linden:	should have been in now but was hard
[15:21]	Wyn Galbraith:	Good :)
[15:21]	Stephany Linden:	we did NOT want it to go through the server b/c of load
[15:21]	Stephany Linden:	SO
[15:21]	Squirrel Wood:	vocoders ^^
[15:22]	Stephany Linden:	had to wait for TVC for local volume feedback (no server trip)
[15:22]	Benjamin Linden:	are we "faking it" in the client so it just goes straight from the mic out the speakers?
[15:22]	Stephany Linden:	;)
[15:22]	Stephany Linden:	not fake - it's real but that's how it works now
[15:22]	Benjamin Linden:	lol
[15:22]	Stephany Linden:	thin voice client
[15:22]	Stephany Linden:	not server :)
[15:22]	Saijanai Kuhn:	would enable people to keep their male/female persona intact and allow better roleplay
[15:22]	Stephany Linden:	like a gateway
[15:22]	Benjamin Linden:	gotcha. I guess I should add that setting to the tuning wizard UI then :-)
[15:23]	Wyn Galbraith:	Thanks for thinking about roleplay.
[15:23]	Very Susanti:	so you are adding the voice changer stuff is that what you are saying?
[15:23]	Stephany Linden:	roleplay is a big concern
[15:23]	Stephany Linden:	I would LOVE to see a huge market of voice mods
[15:23]	Squirrel Wood:	frequency morphing ?
[15:23]	Saijanai Kuhn:	if you're drssed like Darth, you should sound like Darth
[15:23]	Stephany Linden:	by resis :)
[15:23]	Benjamin Linden:	no Very, this is a slightly different thing
[15:23]	Benjamin Linden:	we were talking about being able to hear your own voice in your headset
[15:23]	Stephany Linden:	right
[15:24]	Very Susanti:	is there notes or a blog somewhere?
[15:24]	Stephany Linden:	when that comes out
[15:24]	Stephany Linden:	we will have a blog
[15:24]	Very Susanti:	yeah I had heard that was apossibility, but more distant
[15:24]	Stephany Linden:	very close!
[15:24]	Stephany Linden:	:)
[15:24]	Very Susanti:	kewl
[15:24]	Benjamin Linden:	but not vocording right Stephany?
[15:24]	Benjamin Linden:	that's still a ways out
[15:24]	Stephany Linden:	right
[15:25]	Stephany Linden:	so for the "record"
[15:25]	Stephany Linden:	user volume adjustment- VERY soon
[15:25]	Saijanai Kuhn:	that should be a plugin. The real vocoders are commercial applications or parts thereof
[15:25]	Very Susanti:	so if you want to record you need playback capturing software
[15:25]	Squirrel Wood:	how about supporting VST instruments and filters for audio processing so one could have reverb, echo and stuff? ;)
[15:25]	Stephany Linden:	vocording: farther out
[15:25]	Stephany Linden:	good suggestion
[15:25]	Benjamin Linden:	ok thanks for the clarification
[15:25]	Benjamin Linden:	hi Bang
[15:26]	Wyn Galbraith:	Wow, that's impressive then. I didn't realize how far the voice would go.
[15:26]	Benjamin Linden:	Stephany, does voice get recorded in the movie recording feature in the client?
[15:26]	Very Susanti:	I suspect alot of roleplayers already have something to do voice changing
[15:26]	Stephany Linden:	not that I know of - I should verify
[15:26]	Benjamin Linden:	I'm not even sure if in-world sounds get recorded, does anyone here know?
[15:26]	Wyn Galbraith:	I've never gotten that feature to work so don't know.
[15:27]	Very Susanti:	yeah I haven't used that
[15:27]	Very Susanti:	I think it must cause of the machinima I have seen
[15:27]	Benjamin Linden:	guess we don't have any machina addicts here :-)
[15:27]	Benjamin Linden:	*machinima
[15:27]	Saijanai Kuhn:	For a lot of thse things, the OS already has such features. If the Clinet provides them, there should be a way to turn them over to the OS's native facility, wihc is often more sophsticated
[15:27]	Wyn Galbraith:	At least not one yet :)
[15:27]	Very Susanti:	they have correlated soundtracks, with walking and everything
[15:29]	Benjamin Linden:	hmm I wonder if we lost Stephany
[15:29]	Very Susanti:	hehe yeah
[15:29]	Benjamin Linden:	we definitely lost her hair :-)
[15:29]	Very Susanti:	yep
[15:29]	Stephany Linden:	I know!
[15:29]	Squirrel Wood:	Possibly...
[15:29]	Wyn Galbraith:	It happens even to Lindens :)
[15:29]	Stephany Linden:	oh YES
[15:29]	Saijanai Kuhn:	we need an LD sign for people
[15:29]	Stephany Linden:	and I need to rebake sometimes too
[15:29]	Benjamin Linden:	lol
[15:29]	Saijanai Kuhn:	link dead...
[15:29]	Benjamin Linden:	you look good bald :-)
[15:29]	Benjamin Linden:	very sinead o'connor
[15:29]	Saijanai Kuhn:	/em glad he didn't lose beard
[15:29]	Very Susanti:	haha even Philp crashes during meetings
[15:29]	Wyn Galbraith:	By the way, how do you get the client menu in the first look viewer?
[15:30]	Stephany Linden:	debug mode
[15:30]	Stephany Linden:	ctrl alt d I think
[15:30]	Wyn Galbraith thought it was ctrl-D
[15:30]	Benjamin Linden:	the regular keys don't work?
[15:30]	Very Susanti:	yes
[15:30]	Wyn Galbraith:	oh the alt
[15:30]	Squirrel Wood:	Daniel crashed twice during his story hour today. the 2nd time he didn't return...
[15:30]	Wyn Galbraith:	There it is ;) thanks.
[15:30]	Stephany Linden:	we crash too
[15:30]	Stephany Linden:	:(
[15:30]	Very Susanti:	oops you missed your seat
[15:30]	Stephany Linden:	I see
[15:30]	Benjamin Linden:	your hair is blue now Stephany :-)
[15:30]	Stephany Linden:	I'm slooowww
[15:30]	Stephany Linden:	I know!
[15:30]	Stephany Linden:	like jeska
[15:31]	Very Susanti:	I went to one event, and despite three relog and numerous attempts I ended up sitting in the same woman's lap like 5 times
[15:31]	Benjamin Linden:	lol
[15:31]	Very Susanti:	eventually she just gave me her seat
[15:31]	Benjamin Linden:	so I have a question for those of you that've been using the first look viewer
[15:32]	Wyn Galbraith:	Guess I picked a good day to try the first look.
[15:32]	Benjamin Linden:	what are your thoughts on the speaker lists in the chat windows?
[15:32]	Benjamin Linden:	(other than them being too big)
[15:32]	Saijanai Kuhn:	need to be hidden on demand
[15:32]	Very Susanti:	I wish there was a way to seprate that off
[15:32]	Wyn Galbraith:	I like it and agree with Saijanai.
[15:32]	Stephany Linden:	one tear off is going in today
[15:32]	Stephany Linden:	we plan to do more
[15:32]	Very Susanti:	like there was before
[15:32]	Saijanai Kuhn:	all the info is useful SOME of the time...
[15:32]	Stephany Linden:	oh yeah - new first look today or tomorrow AM
[15:32]	Benjamin Linden:	do you mean the chat history window, Very?
[15:33]	Squirrel Wood:	humm... have the names colored differently depending on the proximity to you? ^^
[15:33]	Very Susanti:	woo hoo
[15:33]	Very Susanti:	wonder it it will make me crash
[15:33]	Stephany Linden:	a LOT of crash fixes went in
[15:33]	Squirrel Wood:	like... nearby people show in green, people not in the same sim... red
[15:33]	Benjamin Linden:	Saijanai, when you say all the info is useful some of the time, can you elaborate on that?
[15:33]	Stephany Linden:	this is great
[15:33]	Very Susanti:	maybe multiple sorting options
[15:34]	Wyn Galbraith:	Mean people should be red Squirrel, no matter how close or far they are.
[15:34]	Saijanai Kuhn:	https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-1144 very please vote
[15:34]	Squirrel Wood:	heh
[15:34]	Very Susanti:	ultimately it is not resizable and takes up too much realestate
[15:34]	Very Susanti:	but it is useful
[15:34]	Squirrel Wood:	the coloring could be done client side as the client sees who is in the same sim ?
[15:34]	Very Susanti:	and I happier overall with the chatterbox
[15:34]	Saijanai Kuhn:	concept of chatter box very useful. IMplementation details need work...
[15:34]	Benjamin Linden:	what specifically do you like about the chatterbox, Very?
[15:35]	Stephany Linden:	we are looking at resize sliders for that as well...
[15:35]	Very Susanti:	well lots of things, it is more concise than having a seperate history window open
[15:35]	Saijanai Kuhn:	does away with need for special colors for each goup in history window.
[15:35]	Very Susanti:	I have some pretty well used groups in my list and I have to read history to see the chatter
[15:36]	Very Susanti:	I like seeing who istyping too
[15:36]	Wyn Galbraith needs the chat history separate.
[15:36]	Very Susanti:	yeah one size doesn't fit all that is for sure
[15:36]	Squirrel Wood:	On a totally different topic... if you have not yet voted for https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/MISC-317 you may want to do so ^^ for a better SL ^^
[15:36]	Wyn Galbraith:	I like that friends and groups are separate lists.
[15:36]	Saijanai Kuhn prepares his spam list of jira suggestions...
[15:36]	Benjamin Linden:	that's interesting Wyn, because we've gotten mixed feedback on that
[15:36]	Very Susanti:	I don't like that friends is no longer in a seperate popup
[15:36]	Benjamin Linden:	hi Dnate
[15:37]	Benjamin Linden:	good to see you again
[15:37]	Dnate Mars:	Hello
[15:37]	Benjamin Linden:	Very, what did you mean when you said you don't need different colored text for groups anymore?
[15:37]	Very Susanti:	I have a long list and I hate scrolling to see who I want
[15:37]	Very Susanti:	that wasn't me
[15:37]	Wyn Galbraith:	Really? I hated having to scroll down the group list to get to friends when in IM. So that's interesting. I don't like to scroll.
[15:37]	Saijanai Kuhn:	that was me. The history window doesn't show ANY thing about the source of text.
[15:38]	Saijanai Kuhn:	sparating it out dos away with a need with that
[15:38]	Wyn Galbraith has maxed groups so is with Very on that.
[15:38]	Very Susanti:	oh yeah I like that group IMs show who is in the session
[15:38]	Squirrel Wood:	minimize the need to click and scroll. yep. ^^
[15:38]	Benjamin Linden:	so some of you think it's valuable to show the list of people participating in the chat?
[15:38]	Squirrel Wood:	Very much so
[15:38]	Wyn Galbraith does.
[15:39]	Very Susanti:	I do, I just wish I could tear it out
[15:39]	Stephany Linden:	coming!
[15:39]	Very Susanti:	or dock it to the side
[15:39]	Benjamin Linden:	Very, when you say that, what specifically do you mean?
[15:39]	Stephany Linden:	that tear out I mean
[15:39]	Very Susanti:	I mean it take up alot of extra space
[15:39]	Benjamin Linden:	so if there was a way to hide it, would that work?
[15:39]	Very Susanti:	verticle space
[15:39]	Stephany Linden:	true
[15:39]	Stephany Linden:	it does
[15:39]	Very Susanti:	no usually I want to see it
[15:40]	Squirrel Wood:	humm.. would be nice to be able to start a private IM session by double-clicking on a name of such a list of participants
[15:40]	Benjamin Linden:	what would be a better location for it?
[15:40]	Very Susanti:	but hidding and resizing would be nice
[15:40]	Very Susanti:	to the side
[15:40]	Saijanai Kuhn:	votes for that for sure
[15:40]	Very Susanti:	like a toolbar
[15:40]	Benjamin Linden:	so that you could see more speakers, Very?
[15:40]	Saijanai Kuhn:	double-click for private chat thing
[15:40]	Dnate Mars:	I just want to state for the record that I hate the new "communicate"
[15:40]	Very Susanti:	and see more chat
[15:40]	Wyn Galbraith:	I've moved it all over the screen to try to place it somewhere good, but it's just ackward. I need a bigger monitor.
[15:40]	Very Susanti:	haha I have a 24" widescreen and I still feel cramped sometimes
[15:41]	Benjamin Linden:	I like the idea of doubleclicking to start private IM, I was just thinking about that earlier today
[15:41]	Wyn Galbraith:	Ben has a picture of my normal operating mode.
[15:41]	Saijanai Kuhn has visions of an LCD monitor lowring from the celiling in his little computer alcove
[15:41]	Very Susanti:	also a teleport user button would be nice
[15:41]	Wyn Galbraith:	So in a sense it helped.
[15:41]	Very Susanti:	and a copy location slurl too
[15:41]	Very Susanti:	for the group IMS
[15:41]	Very Susanti:	but I mentioned that before
[15:42]	Very Susanti:	I was thinking to see if I could easiliy add that in myself, as my first open source project
[15:42]	Benjamin Linden:	some of these options are available in other places, like if you click the Profile button
[15:42]	Saijanai Kuhn:	copy/paste doesn't always work as you'd expect. IF I click on a landmark in my inventory, I should be able to copy/paste it into IM
[15:42]	Saijanai Kuhn:	the SLURL that is
[15:42]	Very Susanti hates extra keystrokes
[15:42]	Benjamin Linden:	that's an interesting idea, Saijanai
[15:43]	Benjamin Linden:	so when you are looking at the speaker list, what information are you scanning it for?
[15:43]	Very Susanti:	copy an LM to a slurl in chat?
[15:43]	Very Susanti:	sounds very useful
[15:44]	Very Susanti:	well if it group chatter who is there
[15:44]	Benjamin Linden:	I'm trying to assess the value of the speaker list and how we can make it more useful
[15:44]	Very Susanti:	in regular chatter I see who is typing
[15:44]	Very Susanti:	I really like it for group IMs
[15:45]	Squirrel Wood:	yep. activity indication is definitely information that should be visible
[15:45]	Saijanai Kuhn:	the feedback for who is talking in the speach mode is less than useful if that is related
[15:45]	Saijanai Kuhn:	might just be a latency thing.
[15:45]	Very Susanti:	I remeber Yahoo voice which basically said who was speaking at the moment, but that won't work here I think
[15:46]	Saijanai Kuhn:	flashes to a kool bit of fluff...
[15:46]	Benjamin Linden:	currently it will light up the little icon next to your name when you're speaking
[15:46]	Squirrel Wood:	"The voiced babbling of <insert name here> was brought to you by <insert classified sponsor>" ^^
[15:46]	Chat Parrot:	Greeter script online.
[15:46]	Saijanai Kuhn:	IM private chat should give a picture of the person speaking along the lines of a comercial IM.
[15:46]	Chat Parrot whispers: im private chat should give a picture of the person speaking along the lines of a comercial im.
[15:47]	Chat Parrot whispers: Hello, Very Susanti.
[15:47]	Chat Parrot:	I mostly repeat everything you say.
[15:47]	Chat Parrot:	But if you ask nicely, I'll give you a kiss.
[15:47]	Chat Parrot:	Just say 'please give me a kiss'.
[15:47]	Saijanai Kuhn:	not just a little icon, but a thubmnail
[15:47]	Benjamin Linden:	of what Saijanai?
[15:47]	Saijanai Kuhn:	the avatar speaking
[15:47]	Very Susanti:	I haven't really been in a public space with lots of speakers yet, but I imagine the chatter box as it is right now would not help you to figure out who is talking
[15:47]	Saijanai Kuhn:	not in group chat, but private
[15:47]	Benjamin Linden:	what makes you say that Very?
[15:48]	Very Susanti:	well right now I see 5 names in my list without scrolling
[15:48]	Saijanai Kuhn marvels at griefers that don't recognize last name of game company
[15:48]	Benjamin Linden:	ah so the issue is that you can't see enough names?
[15:48]	Very Susanti:	if we were in acrowd I may have trouble if the speakers were not in that 5
[15:49]	Very Susanti:	yes
[15:49]	Benjamin Linden:	ok
[15:49]	Benjamin Linden:	has anyone noticed the *separate* active speakers window that you can open from the Talk tab?
[15:49]	Dnate Mars:	I have
[15:49]	Very Susanti:	yes
[15:49]	Benjamin Linden:	thoughts on that?
[15:49]	Very Susanti:	lol but I fortgot about it haha
[15:49]	Saijanai Kuhn ...missed it... blush
[15:49]	Very Susanti:	it is the same from the voice beta?
[15:49]	Benjamin Linden:	yes, similar Very
[15:49]	Very Susanti:	if so than it is very helpfull
[15:50]	Benjamin Linden:	in what regard?
[15:50]	Squirrel Wood:	I am a minimalist when it comes to UIs... have as much information displayed in the least amount of space ^^
[15:50]	Very Susanti:	cause it resorts by who is speaking
[15:50]	Very Susanti:	not only by distance
[15:50]	Stephany Linden:	true
[15:50]	Benjamin Linden:	the speaker list in Near Me does that as well
[15:51]	Very Susanti:	well but is also sorts on cat too or am I mistaken
[15:51]	Very Susanti:	chat
[15:51]	Very Susanti:	so it could get confusing in a mixed enviroment
[15:51]	Zurg Ling:	I'm confused
[15:51]	Benjamin Linden:	yes, it includes voice and text chatters
[15:51]	Zurg Ling:	How exactly does a noob go about getting money in this game?
[15:51]	Very Susanti:	for voice you need a voice only one
[15:52]	Very Susanti:	timing is very important in voice not so much in chatter
[15:52]	Squirrel Wood:	I'd like an option to have lists not shown in separate windows but mayhaps as a drop down list like you have in the chat history of the regular client
[15:52]	Benjamin Linden:	so do people find the combined list of voice and text chatters confusing?
[15:52]	Very Susanti:	also a longer list will make it easier to mute an offender quickly
[15:53]	Squirrel Wood:	obtaining money: a) Money Trees b) Camping chairs / dance pads; c) building/scripting and selling the products.
[15:53]	Very Susanti:	especialy if the focus switches
[15:53]	Zurg Ling:	Thank you
[15:53]	Entering god mode, level 200
[15:53]	Squirrel Wood:	option d) purchase money (not recommended right now)
[15:54]	Very Susanti:	lol use SLX
[15:54]	Benjamin Linden:	Zurg, please stop dragging objects from your inventory
[15:54]	Zurg Ling:	I'm not...
[15:54]	Zurg Ling:	I have one object equipped
[15:54]	Benjamin Linden:	thanks!
[15:54]	Very Susanti:	and a particle emitter too
[15:54]	Zurg Ling:	Sorry, don't even know what that is
[15:54]	Zurg Ling:	Picked that up at a sandbox
[15:55]	Benjamin Linden:	that's ok, yeah it looked a griefer's toy :-)
[15:55]	Saijanai Kuhn:	dangerous things, sandboxes...
[15:55]	Benjamin Linden:	yeah you can pick up all kinds of nasty bugs in sandboxes
[15:55]	Zurg Ling:	like a horse?
[15:55]	Zurg Ling:	it won't let me ride it :(
[15:55]	Benjamin Linden:	Zurg, please refrain from attaching objects right now
[15:55]	Very Susanti:	lol looked like haha
[15:55]	Benjamin Linden:	thanks!
[15:55]	Squirrel Wood shudders at the thought of sandboxes... griefers sound/particle spamming, orbitting, pushing, bullying... ^^
[15:55]	Zurg Ling:	kk
[15:55]	Very Susanti:	there are nice sandboxes out there
[15:56]	Saijanai Kuhn:	edu ilsand sandbox is almost completely empty, usually
[15:56]	Very Susanti:	I have been in a couple
[15:56]	Benjamin Linden:	back to the matter at hand, I just wanted to drill in a little more on this idea of a speakers list
[15:56]	Wyn Galbraith:	Hey, how about voice enabled sandboxes and then sandboxes where there's no voice.
[15:56]	Very Susanti:	well I think voice and chatter need to be treated differently
[15:56]	Saijanai Kuhn:	/votes
[15:56]	Benjamin Linden:	it sounds like the general concensus is that people want the lists to be longer
[15:57]	Benjamin Linden:	Very, can you explain what you mean?
[15:57]	Saijanai Kuhn:	to MAYBE be longer, when you need them...
[15:57]	Very Susanti:	one list priorities by coth chat and voice
[15:57]	Benjamin Linden:	and also to now show if you don't need the list
[15:57]	Very Susanti:	and one list only prioritized by voice
[15:57]	Squirrel Wood:	leave it to the individual whether they want one combined list or two separate ones?
[15:57]	Very Susanti:	and also a voice log of who spoke and when can be useful
[15:58]	Benjamin Linden:	ideally we could make it that flexible but what if you had to choose one or the other?
[15:58]	Saijanai Kuhn:	in the long run, voice recording, sorted by speaker...
[15:58]	Very Susanti:	so if you miss looking at the screen you may still be able to figure out who spoke
[15:58]	Very Susanti:	voice
[15:58]	Benjamin Linden:	you mean voice-only Very?
[15:58]	Very Susanti:	yes
[15:58]	Benjamin Linden:	so you would rather have a voice only list than a list that shows speakers and text chatters?
[15:59]	Very Susanti:	well I won't both
[15:59]	Very Susanti:	I want both
[15:59]	Benjamin Linden:	lol ok
[15:59]	Benjamin Linden:	want or won't?
[15:59]	Very Susanti:	and a chat spell checker too
[15:59]	Very Susanti:	hehe
[15:59]	Benjamin Linden:	lol but you had it spelled right :-)
[15:59]	Very Susanti:	hush
[15:59]	Very Susanti:	lol
[16:00]	Saijanai Kuhn:	contextual spellchecker builtinto client.
[16:00]	Very Susanti:	I like having two lists
[16:00]	Benjamin Linden:	what about others? thoughts on the combined speakers list?
[16:00]	Very Susanti:	one sorted only for voice
[16:00]	Saijanai Kuhn:	that adds spaces as needed, not to mention capitalization and grammar checking
[16:00]	Very Susanti:	and one sorted for both
[16:00]	Very Susanti:	but if I had to pick one I would pick voice
[16:01]	Very Susanti:	is it clear now?
[16:01]	Saijanai Kuhn:	yeah. Voice.
[16:01]	Benjamin Linden:	you would pick one for voice over a combined list?
[16:01]	Very Susanti:	absolutely
[16:01]	Saijanai Kuhn:	info of who is speaking is still contained in text message itself, right?
[16:01]	Very Susanti:	yes
[16:01]	Benjamin Linden:	no Saijanai
[16:02]	Saijanai Kuhn:	...
[16:02]	Very Susanti:	you have a chat log, but what about a voice log I think that would be useful too so you could see who the last speakers were
[16:02]	Benjamin Linden:	the only indication of who's speaking is in the speakers lists
[16:02]	Saijanai Kuhn:	I meant for text chat.
[16:02]	Benjamin Linden:	there is an icon that lights up when you talk and fades away over time
[16:02]	Benjamin Linden:	yes, text chat is recorded
[16:02]	Very Susanti:	yes and if you drop your gaze you might miss it
[16:03]	Benjamin Linden:	the list also sorts by most recent speaker
[16:03]	Saijanai Kuhn:	this is still the text format, right? Benjamin Linden: yes, text chat is recorded
[16:03]	Very Susanti:	that would be an issue in a community meeting
[16:03]	Saijanai Kuhn:	so sort by text-chat is redundant
[16:03]	Squirrel Wood:	Is there a way to force the list to sort by alphabet instead of latest whatever?
[16:03]	Benjamin Linden:	yes Squirrel
[16:03]	Benjamin Linden:	you click the column header
[16:03]	Squirrel Wood:	good ^^
[16:04]	Benjamin Linden:	it doesn't resort by typer, only by voice
[16:04]	Saijanai Kuhn:	we arleady know who is typing from the message itself
[16:05]	Very Susanti:	while we are on a wish list I imagine if the speaker in chat was a clickable thing so you could say pull up a profile and mute quickly (like a hyperlink) it would good too
[16:05]	Squirrel Wood:	any differentiation between active participants and "silent listeners" ?
[16:05]	Benjamin Linden:	well not until the message appears, right
[16:05]	Benjamin Linden:	there is a profile button next to the list that you can click to get to mute
[16:05]	Very Susanti:	who is typing is not really as important as who is speaking
[16:05]	Very Susanti:	in chat?
[16:05]	Benjamin Linden:	there is also a mute checkbox for voice and text chat
[16:05]	Saijanai Kuhn:	they are both important but we already have feedback for typing
[16:06]	Squirrel Wood:	"silent listeners" referring to those who don't talk in the chat
[16:06]	Benjamin Linden:	in Group chat there's no feedback for typing, right?
[16:07]	Saijanai Kuhn:	not suing voice first look. Wasn't sure. DId you take out the name: message format?
[16:07]	Benjamin Linden:	it still shows what people type
[16:07]	Benjamin Linden:	just not while they're typing
[16:07]	Saijanai Kuhn:	that should be sufficient, I think. VOice speakers need more clear feedback than thye typers
[16:08]	Squirrel Wood:	lots of foodbags for you here today ^^
[16:08]	Squirrel Wood:	or was that feedback? :p
[16:08]	Saijanai Kuhn:	or maybe a "T" appears instead of the little sound symble and keep both in the same list...
[16:08]	Benjamin Linden:	I was noticing during this meeting that it was nice to be able to look at the list and see who's typing at the same time as me so I don't potentially overlap with someone else
[16:08]	Stephany Linden:	yes, and I so love transcripts
[16:09]	Benjamin Linden:	actually we imagined something very similar Saijanai
[16:09]	Wyn Galbraith does too.
[16:09]	Very Susanti:	I agree, but voice is still going to present it's own unique problems
[16:09]	Squirrel Wood:	Just crash conveniently for no transcript ^^
[16:09]	Benjamin Linden:	lol
[16:09]	Benjamin Linden:	ok guys we're out of time!
[16:09]	Benjamin Linden:	thanks for coming, as always
[16:09]	Benjamin Linden:	great feedback today
[16:09]	Squirrel Wood:	time.. such a nasty thing!
[16:09]	Squirrel Wood:	^^
[16:09]	Wyn Galbraith:	Thanks for the meeting, it was nice.
[16:09]	Very Susanti:	ok kewl thanks for having us
[16:10]	Saijanai Kuhn:	is amazing setup, this SL...
[16:10]	Wyn Galbraith:	Time you old gypsy man, will you not stay, put up your caravan just for one day ...
[16:10]	Squirrel Wood:	Always a pleasure seing things get done and discussed without one person hogging up all the precious time ^^
[16:10]	Stephany Linden:	thank you so much guys
[16:10]	Stephany Linden:	this is so helpful
[16:10]	Wyn Galbraith:	That too Squirrel.
[16:10]	Squirrel Wood:	Anytime ^^
[16:10]	Benjamin Linden:	thanks for coming Stephany
[16:10]	Wyn Galbraith:	We're available anytime.
[16:10]	Wyn Galbraith:	Though I was accused of coming to meetings just to hang out with Lindens.
[16:10]	Squirrel Wood:	you should do dual meetings more often ^^
[16:11]	Stephany Linden:	soon I'll stop barging in on ben's office hours and have my own
[16:11]	Stephany Linden:	cheers!
[16:11]	Saijanai Kuhn:	kool and great
[16:11]	Benjamin Linden:	take care everybody!
[16:11]	Wyn Galbraith:	Great.
[16:11]	Saijanai Kuhn:	bye
[16:11]	Stephany Linden:	bye