User:Benjamin Linden/Office Hours/2007 May 29

Transcript of Benjamin Linden's office hours:

[10:05]	Benjamin Linden:	good morning!
[10:05]	Very Susanti:	good morning
[10:05]	Dragonfan Hooper:	morning ben
[10:06]	Kyrinnia Desmoulins:	bye benjamin, I don't think you're the right linden to harrass until my problem is solved
[10:06]	Benjamin Linden:	how is everybody?
[10:06]	Kyrinnia Desmoulins:	irritated lol
[10:06]	Chaley May:	Im okay
[10:06]	Christian Colville:	Hi Benjamin
[10:06]	Dragonfan Hooper:	i'm fine just at several other office hours this morning
[10:06]	Chaley May:	thinking i might be banned soon
[10:07]	Benjamin Linden:	does anyone have anything they'd like to discuss before we get started?
[10:07]	Benjamin Linden:	nice staff Dragonfan!
[10:08]	Benjamin Linden:	Nice to see you again Christian
[10:08]	Dragonfan Hooper:	gracias i got it in the tenera sim
[10:08]	Christian Colville:	likewise Ben
[10:08]	Dragonfan Hooper:	i was up the hill last week for daniel lindens' office hour
[10:08]	MystiTool HUD 1.0.18: Script run-time error
[10:08]	MystiTool HUD 1.0.18: Bounds Check Error
[10:08]	Benjamin Linden:	that's great, Dragonfan. what did you discuss?
[10:09]	Dragonfan Hooper:	i don't remember jsut some abuse stuff and other questions i had for him
[10:09]	Benjamin Linden:	last week I got some good feedback on the new communication window in the beta viewer
[10:09]	Benjamin Linden:	I was wondering if anyone else has had a chance to use it since then
[10:09]	Benjamin Linden:	and if they had any comments they'd like to share
[10:09]	Christian Colville:	oh I have to check that out..
[10:10]	Dragonfan Hooper:	what is the main field ypou work in on Sl ben
[10:10]	Gao Niangao:	sorry, benjamin, haven't made it to the beta grid in a while
[10:10]	Tao Takashi:	Hi there
[10:10]	Benjamin Linden:	I'm an Interface designer, Dragonfan
[10:10]	Chaley May:	ive never been on the beta grid
[10:10]	Benjamin Linden:	so I'm working to improve the viewer UI
[10:10]	Benjamin Linden:	we all know it has some major usability issues
[10:10]	Tao Takashi:	I heard bad things about the beta grid ;-)
[10:11]	Benjamin Linden:	oh hey Tao
[10:11]	Very Susanti:	what is the new communications window for?
[10:11]	Tao Takashi:	Hi Benjamin
[10:11]	Christian Colville:	here's a question: why does text input lag?
[10:11]	Tao Takashi:	yes, I think it was about that window
[10:11]	lufpleh Obstreperous:	has it changed since last wednesday Ben
[10:11]	Benjamin Linden:	it consolidates several windows (IM/Friends/Groups/Chat History) into a single streamlined UI
[10:11]	Benjamin Linden:	I don't believe it's changed Lufpleh
[10:11]	lufpleh Obstreperous:	into a rather large UI
[10:11]	Christian Colville:	that sounds good
[10:12]	Tao Takashi:	haven't seen it yet but somebody told me it's far too big
[10:12]	Benjamin Linden:	yes, several people commented last week that it's too large
[10:12]	Benjamin Linden:	we're working on that
[10:12]	lufpleh Obstreperous:	it looks like a very Beta UI
[10:12]	Tao Takashi:	zoom ;-)
[10:12]	Very Susanti:	was there a blob entry about it?
[10:12]	Tao Takashi:	I don't think so
[10:12]	Benjamin Linden:	I don't believe there's been a blog entry; this is being done as part of the Voice Chat project
[10:12]	Dragonfan Hooper:	i wonder i was curious about the interface change on the main part of thje login screen of SL and why it has changed since so long ago
[10:13]	Christian Colville:	is there some way that movement controls can operate when another window has focus?
[10:13]	Tao Takashi:	just get rid of all the windows, we don't have them in RL ;-)
[10:13]	Benjamin Linden:	do you mean like when you're chatting, Christian?
[10:13]	Very Susanti:	K I was in beta durring the last update, I didn't notice a change to any of the windows
[10:13]	Benjamin Linden:	haha, I'm working on that Tao!
[10:13]	Dragonfan Hooper:	LOL
[10:13]	Christian Colville:	yeah
[10:14]	Christian Colville:	I'm always trying to move then getting that boink sound then I have to click something to defocus the window I was in
[10:14]	Christian Colville:	I suppose it would mean making arrow keys inactive in the UI windows
[10:14]	Benjamin Linden:	yes, that's a trade-off. because sometimes you want your cursor keys to work in the text field you're editing
[10:15]	Benjamin Linden:	there's a preference setting for this, though
[10:15]	Benjamin Linden:	at least partially
[10:15]	Christian Colville:	oh ok
[10:15]	Benjamin Linden:	I'm looking for it now :-)
[10:15]	Christian Colville:	grins I'll look for it
[10:15]	Benjamin Linden:	it's under text chat
[10:16]	Benjamin Linden:	"Arrow keys always move avatar when chatting"
[10:16]	Benjamin Linden:	I believe it's on by default
[10:16]	Christian Colville:	oh ok it is on
[10:16]	Very Susanti:	oh yeah took me a while to find that
[10:16]	Christian Colville:	maybe its the inventory window
[10:16]	Christian Colville:	arrow keys aren't really useful in that
[10:17]	Benjamin Linden:	I use them to edit when I'm typing. I'm sure it's all a matter of personal preference
[10:17]	Christian Colville:	I try to start moving and the folders start randomly opening and closing
[10:17]	lufpleh Obstreperous:	disagree there I use arrows up and down all the time in Inventory
[10:17]	Christian Colville:	yeah?
[10:17]	Chaley May:	im always opening and closing my folders while moving
[10:17]	Chaley May:	then i usually have to go find the items i was trying to use again
[10:17]	Dragonfan Hooper:	sometimes when i use notecard it does not open fully
[10:17]	Christian Colville:	that's how UIs go - people always have different styles of use
[10:17]	Benjamin Linden:	I think it's good to support multiple styles of navigating the UI when possible
[10:18]	Tao Takashi:	for me it would help if at least Pos1 wouldn't be active in the chat window
[10:18]	Benjamin Linden:	but that's what makes this job tricky :-)
[10:18]	Christian Colville:	yes indeed I work on UIs in r/l
[10:18]	Tao Takashi:	otoh the chat window is always active when it's enabled
[10:18]	Benjamin Linden:	oh I didn't realize that Christian
[10:19]	Benjamin Linden:	what do you mean Tao?
[10:19]	Tao Takashi:	if I press the Pos1 key (or whatever it is on an english keyboard) in order to get at the beginning of the line I end up flying
[10:19]	Tao Takashi:	left from page up
[10:20]	Christian Colville:	oh its called Home
[10:20]	Tao Takashi:	ok :)
[10:20]	Tao Takashi:	some key to get at the beginning of the line would be nice actually
[10:20]	Tao Takashi:	not sure if there is one
[10:21]	Benjamin Linden:	it seems to work for me
[10:21]	Roomie Whitfield:	Pardon me, I don't mean to interrupt, but I'm looking for help with some 'bugs' over the weekend with the inventory...
[10:21]	Roomie Whitfield:	Can anyone assist me locate the proper Linden Island to go to?
[10:21]	Tao Takashi:	you get to the beginning of the line in the chat bar?
[10:21]	Tao Takashi:	it works in the IM window
[10:22]	Benjamin Linden:	yes, Tao
[10:22]	Benjamin Linden:	but I clicked that setting
[10:22]	Benjamin Linden:	Roomie, have you filed a support request?
[10:22]	Tao Takashi:	ah, setting
[10:22]	Tao Takashi:	:-)
[10:22]	Benjamin Linden:	the one under Text Chat that we were discussing
[10:22]	Tao Takashi:	I never knew what that setting actually did
[10:23]	Tao Takashi:	I thought it disabled cursor keys completely if the chat bar is active
[10:23]	Benjamin Linden:	yes, I actually prefer it
[10:23]	Gao Niangao:	(this is actually helpful... *unchecking* the Arrow keys always move avatar in chat" makes the Pos1/Home key work... seems more consistent with IMs & every other window that way)
[10:23]	Benjamin Linden:	because I'm always accidentally flying when I'm trying to chat
[10:23]	Tao Takashi:	so I never switched it on
[10:23]	Benjamin Linden:	:-)
[10:23]	Tao Takashi:	so does it only have effect on the home key?
[10:23]	Tao Takashi:	or some also general movement?
[10:23]	Tao Takashi:	-some
[10:23]	Roomie Whitfield:	hello Benjamin
[10:24]	Tao Takashi:	but thanks for the tip anyway :)
[10:24]	Benjamin Linden:	it's all the movement keys
[10:24]	Benjamin Linden:	like arrow keys
[10:24]	Benjamin Linden:	if you leave that option checked (the default) then you move around even when typing
[10:24]	Tao Takashi:	Hm, then CTRL-A does not work anymore
[10:24]	Christian Colville:	would be a good thing to go in that tip of the day message
[10:25]	Roomie Whitfield:	::pinches self to make sure she's not invisible as she is here looking for assistance with inventory problem, freezing invisible prims on land and not returning items taken to inventory::
[10:25]	Tao Takashi:	yep, CTRL-A only works with this option on
[10:25]	Tao Takashi:	bug or feature? ;-)
[10:25]	Benjamin Linden:	good suggestion, Christian
[10:25]	Gao Niangao:	Roomie, you need to file a support request to have the sim restarted
[10:26]	Benjamin Linden:	hi Roomie, I asked if you filed a support request
[10:26]	Roomie Whitfield:	my apoilogies Benjamin, I did not see it.. :) sorry
[10:26]	Roomie Whitfield:	apologies*
[10:26]	Roomie Whitfield:	no, I have not, as of yet
[10:26]	Benjamin Linden:	that's ok Roomie, I have a hard time keeping up with the chats too
[10:27]	Christian Colville:	another thing I was wondering why text input lags to the same degree as the sim you're in?
[10:27]	Benjamin Linden:	filing a support request is the best way to get help for the issues you're having
[10:27]	Christian Colville:	would it be problematic having it run on a different thread?
[10:27]	Roomie Whitfield:	ty Benjamin..and the support request is located where?
[10:27]	Benjamin Linden:	that's more of a technical question Christian, I'm not sure about the answer to that one
[10:27]	Tao Takashi:	I wonder more why group IMs always lag like that since some update but that's no UI issue
[10:27]	Benjamin Linden:	hang on Roomie, I'll get the link for you
[10:27]	Christian Colville:	ok but if it could be fixed it would make SL a hell of a lot more usable
[10:28]	Roomie Whitfield:	and psst, Benjamin, what is up with the inventory now (try typing keyword.. and then backspacing ONE letter to have the item show up?? and the recent tabs not working??)
[10:28]	Tao Takashi:	and when do we get tags and auto-sort? ;-)
[10:28]	Tao Takashi:	smartfolders might be nice :)
[10:29]	Benjamin Linden:	I believe you should be able to find it here, Roomie: http://secondlife.com/community/support.php
[10:29]	Roomie Whitfield:	<<wishing for the moon here.. but wish icons would be one for box, then one for other items out of box, to eliminate confusion
[10:29]	Chaley May:	i would like to be able to open object inventorys in my inventory like another folder
[10:30]	Roomie Whitfield:	ty very much Benjamin
[10:30]	Gao Niangao:	hehehe... I suddenly have an "immortal" New Folder. can put stuff in it, but can't delete it or move it into another folder. not sure that's a very "smartfolder" though. *winks*
[10:30]	Benjamin Linden:	I assume you're talking about inventory features, Tao?
[10:30]	Roomie Whitfield:	and Gao..ty as well
[10:30]	Tao Takashi:	yes, Benjamin
[10:30]	Tao Takashi:	and did the icon for a prim compound in your inventory actually changed?
[10:30]	Benjamin Linden:	tagging inventory items is something we've been discussing
[10:30]	Tao Takashi:	just noticed it yesterday when I was putting a multi-select in my inventory
[10:31]	Tao Takashi:	I remember that ;-) but when is it finished? ;-) hehe
[10:31]	Benjamin Linden:	that's probably the new "coalesced object" icon you're seeing
[10:31]	Tao Takashi:	yep, that multi-cube
[10:31]	Benjamin Linden:	does it look like a bunch of little boxes stacked
[10:31]	Benjamin Linden:	yeah
[10:31]	Tao Takashi:	good addition :)
[10:31]	Benjamin Linden:	glad you like!
[10:32]	Tao Takashi:	cool would be to see the dimension of an object so I might more likely know if this "Object" is the right thing I am searching for now :)
[10:32]	Tao Takashi:	and if I should wear it or better rez it
[10:32]	Tao Takashi:	maybe a better name for "Object" might be good as well, like "Object in Beaumont from 2007/05/29"
[10:33]	Benjamin Linden:	I'd love to see some sort of preview window so people can look through their inventory without having to res objects
[10:33]	Tao Takashi:	that might be even better of course
[10:33]	Tao Takashi:	but sounds more complicated to implement I guess
[10:33]	Dragonfan Hooper:	is the shrinking notecards a bug at all because i ran into it several tiems
[10:33]	Tao Takashi:	but IMHO there could even be some full screen UI for the inventory
[10:34]	Tao Takashi:	one view at least in order to sort it
[10:34]	Tao Takashi:	like a two pane filemanager maybe
[10:34]	Benjamin Linden:	yes, you're right. just so I understand the scenario here Tao, you're saying you grab a bunch of objects and drag them to your inventory together and it creates a single object called "Object" and you'd like to see a better default name?
[10:34]	Tao Takashi:	well, I am more speaking of the name when you create it
[10:35]	Tao Takashi:	I sometimes end up to quickly put things into my inventory without properly naming it or stuff gets returned
[10:35]	Tao Takashi:	so I have a lot of "Object"s in my inventory
[10:35]	Very Susanti:	Object metadata would be great so you good have more detailed notes on the creation time, version excedera, but that is a big change I would think
[10:35]	Tao Takashi:	and knowing from where and when it was might at least help a bit to find something agan
[10:35]	Benjamin Linden:	that's definitely stuff we're discussing, Very
[10:36]	Tao Takashi:	of course the best solution would be metadata but I am trying to be pragmatic here ;-)
[10:36]	Very Susanti:	kewlness
[10:36]	Benjamin Linden:	I just don't have any timelines right now for when work will begin on Inventory improvements
[10:36]	Benjamin Linden:	we're actively working on Search right now
[10:36]	Tao Takashi:	so I though giving a better name might be a quick fix
[10:36]	Benjamin Linden:	yes, that's good feedback Tao. I'll pass it along.
[10:36]	Very Susanti:	what directions are you thinking to go in search, if you don't mind saying
[10:37]	Tao Takashi:	or "created on Grasmere on 2007/05/29 17:25 when Tao felt bored and thought about creating something very cool which did not work out though"
[10:37]	Roomie Whitfield:	what happened over the weekend with the Inventory search Benjamin? Suddenly I can't locate things such as 'gazebo'... i type it, says I have nothing, then I backspace one letter and they all appear
[10:37]	Christian Colville:	my big interest is land search..
[10:37]	Roomie Whitfield:	And the Recent tabs, doesn't show anything unless I do a filter with minimum, four days, of things I just obtained in last hour?
[10:38]	Tao Takashi:	and where is the RSS feed for my recent items? ;-)
[10:38]	Benjamin Linden:	we're still in the very early stages of exploring options for improving search
[10:38]	Benjamin Linden:	the goal is to make it more flexible and intuitive, with true full-text searching
[10:38]	Tao Takashi:	I hope the SLV feedback did help a bit on that :)
[10:38]	Very Susanti:	are you considering sematic searching tools?
[10:38]	Benjamin Linden:	and hopefully eventually things like tagging
[10:39]	Benjamin Linden:	we would like to have more advanced search tools, yes, Very
[10:39]	Christian Colville:	sort of Google style?
[10:39]	Benjamin Linden:	but did you mean like natural language searching?
[10:39]	Benjamin Linden:	can you give me an example, Very?
[10:39]	Benjamin Linden:	yes, Christian, more Google-like
[10:39]	Benjamin Linden:	more free-form entry
[10:39]	Very Susanti:	I worked on a sematic search tool used in the banking industry
[10:39]	Tao Takashi:	the main question might be if you can search for objects or still just places where you might eventually find the object you are interested in
[10:40]	Very Susanti:	was based on onological data
[10:40]	Christian Colville:	fascinating Very
[10:40]	Tao Takashi:	usually I don't ;-)
[10:40]	Tao Takashi:	that sounds interesting, Very
[10:40]	Very Susanti:	it is
[10:40]	Benjamin Linden:	we would like to enable searching for objects, Tao
[10:40]	Christian Colville:	wow we're all sounding like Yoda grins
[10:40]	Very Susanti:	it is the future of search engines
[10:41]	Benjamin Linden:	Very, can you give an example of the kind of search a semantic search engine would enable?
[10:41]	Very Susanti:	you can do things like what Amazon does
[10:41]	Benjamin Linden:	do you mean like recommendations?
[10:41]	Tao Takashi:	cool, Ben :)
[10:41]	Very Susanti:	well Amazon's if you like this you might like that is one example
[10:41]	Christian Colville:	does it use some kind of network of associations?
[10:42]	Tao Takashi:	another option is of course to create some search-opt-in mechanism and export this data via some API and let residents do the search
[10:42]	Tao Takashi:	you then concentrate on HTML-on-a-HUD to get it in-world again :)
[10:42]	Very Susanti:	in the Space i worked in it was extracting Know you customer data from public information searches to match people against FBI and other Derrogatory lists
[10:42]	Very Susanti:	and if they were realted to people on lists
[10:42]	Benjamin Linden:	one of Linden Lab's uber-goals is to make everything accessible via APIs and web services
[10:43]	Benjamin Linden:	so eventually the scenario you describe should be enabled, Tao
[10:43]	Very Susanti:	but the search technology is much broader than that
[10:43]	Tao Takashi:	and Very would have data to use then :-)
[10:44]	Christian Colville:	I've thought that SL needs some kind of category hierarchy for searching
[10:44]	Very Susanti:	I imagine in the case of a search engine the assertions would be more about this event is similar to tha one
[10:44]	Benjamin Linden:	I'm not sure what you mean, Christian
[10:44]	Benjamin Linden:	do you mean like an Index?
[10:44]	Benjamin Linden:	that you can browse
[10:44]	Benjamin Linden:	hi Feelix
[10:44]	Christian Colville:	Like Places/Clubs/Dance Clubs/80s
[10:45]	Feeelix Upshaw:	hi benjamin
[10:45]	Very Susanti:	an Ontology is more than an index
[10:45]	Benjamin Linden:	right, so like Yahoo's index
[10:45]	Christian Colville:	ok Very that sounds interesting//
[10:45]	Tao Takashi:	but such categories are always problematic I think
[10:45]	Very Susanti:	we used it in conjugtion with an idexing system based on Lucene
[10:45]	Christian Colville:	what is one?
[10:45]	Tao Takashi:	to come up with the right ones
[10:45]	Tao Takashi:	that's why I like tags ;-)
[10:45]	Benjamin Linden:	it's also hard to scale
[10:45]	Tao Takashi:	or implement topic maps :-)
[10:45]	Benjamin Linden:	it would be interesting to look at how wikipedia manages their indexes
[10:45]	Benjamin Linden:	I think it's largely done via categories
[10:45]	Christian Colville:	well the categories could be user created to some extent
[10:46]	Tao Takashi:	I just search on wikipedia
[10:46]	Benjamin Linden:	that people tag articles with
[10:46]	Tao Takashi:	with topic maps it would indeed be nice but also complex
[10:46]	Benjamin Linden:	so it sounds like we're talking about sort of a hybrid of tagging
[10:46]	Christian Colville:	tagging depends on people to come up with the right tags
[10:46]	Very Susanti:	depends we injested 100's of gigabytes of data into our indexes
[10:46]	Jarod Godel:	that'd be kind of a waste
[10:46]	Tao Takashi:	but you would be able to aggregate similar tags together as synonyms or so
[10:47]	Very Susanti:	but the search times would not work for SL
[10:47]	Christian Colville:	you either have a preset list or let them come up with 3 different words for the same thing
[10:47]	Tao Takashi:	you can even have multi-lingual tags then
[10:47]	Tao Takashi:	like translations of them and they still find everything
[10:47]	Benjamin Linden:	right, I think the idea is that over time the right tags become enforced and you can pick out the correct tags from the cloud
[10:47]	Tao Takashi:	oh, and can we please have an option to hide IMs completely from the chat overlay? :-)
[10:47]	Christian Colville:	ok
[10:47]	Jarod Godel:	ugh
[10:47]	Tao Takashi:	well, how does upcoming does that?
[10:48]	Jarod Godel:	yeah, but that's 2D data
[10:48]	Jarod Godel:	tagging 3D objects is just a waste.
[10:48]	Very Susanti:	Tags can be abused too, that is the trouble with investing a large effort into a new search tool, it is only a matter of time before people can abuse it
[10:48]	Benjamin Linden:	Jarod, what makes you say that?
[10:48]	Jarod Godel:	locations and people, not so much...
[10:48]	Jarod Godel:	because objects are infinite
[10:49]	Jarod Godel:	If I copy, copy copy, copy my hammer, are you going to tag all those?
[10:49]	Very Susanti:	tagging alone is usually not enough, some kind of voting methodology is ussualy required to provide relevance
[10:49]	Benjamin Linden:	I would imagine the tags would move with the hammer
[10:49]	Tao Takashi:	well, on flickr I can tag whatever I want
[10:49]	Benjamin Linden:	it's just another attribute of the hammer
[10:49]	Tao Takashi:	people even can add tags to my stuff
[10:50]	Tao Takashi:	seems to work for me ;-)
[10:50]	Christian Colville:	yep I believe you've said LL are trying to get away from Traffic as a method of prioritising search
[10:50]	Very Susanti:	tagging is a good first step I think
[10:50]	Cerile Sewell shouts: Computer
[10:50]	Benjamin Linden:	we haven't totally figured out how to determine relevance
[10:51]	Benjamin Linden:	traffic is probably one part of it
[10:51]	Jarod Godel:	fucking phone
[10:51]	Very Susanti:	yes that is a hard problem
[10:51]	Christian Colville:	I think it must be very hard tocome up with something that can't be rigged by determined action
[10:51]	Jarod Godel:	But you're steal dealing with a dozen hammers
[10:51]	Jarod Godel:	i mean
[10:51]	Jarod Godel:	look...
[10:52]	Jarod Godel:	if i'm selling dildoes, all I have to do to fuck your tag system is hire some kind out of China to duplicate a hundred dildoes and tag them with sex keywods
[10:52]	Tao Takashi:	well, if you have objects in search and they are on sale you might mix something like traffic, sales and maybe comments (if you'd add that :-)
[10:52]	Jarod Godel:	and i've effectively ruined your tagging search engine.
[10:53]	Jarod Godel:	that's why it's a bad idea for objects.
[10:53]	Chaley May:	You should create LSL functions to let us search the database ourselfs then we can make tools that find things in search and let us worry about relevance
[10:53]	Very Susanti:	for a web page you can determine relavance by the number of times people redirect themselves to a link, but for an event people don't go usually till it happens so that is not a usefull way to measure it
[10:53]	Jarod Godel:	tagging events, people, and locations work because those are finite objects
[10:53]	Gao Niangao mutters "China... or Oakland"
[10:53]	Jarod Godel:	Or Russia.
[10:53]	Tao Takashi:	maybe make tags be able to be flagged as inappropriate and if many people do that mark the guy who tagged it
[10:53]	Benjamin Linden:	I think one way we can calculate relevance is to look at the strength of a tag
[10:54]	Benjamin Linden:	so if lots of people tag something as a Shoe then it's probably a Shoe
[10:54]	Very Susanti:	that works maybe for places
[10:54]	Tao Takashi:	what about the international aspect, btw?
[10:54]	Very Susanti:	you can even have a feedback system
[10:54]	Tao Takashi:	what if I tag it as "Schuh"?
[10:54]	Tao Takashi:	or search for "Schuh"
[10:54]	Benjamin Linden:	great questions Tao
[10:54]	Very Susanti:	where residents can vote on a place
[10:54]	Tao Takashi:	my topic ;-)
[10:54]	Jarod Godel:	Maybe I've just jaded from having a teacher here at work teaching students how to spam/game search engines.
[10:55]	Benjamin Linden:	it will be interesting to see if some languages become more dominant for tagging
[10:55]	Tao Takashi:	that's why I thought that topic maps would be nice to create some relationships between tags
[10:55]	Benjamin Linden:	lol @ Jarod
[10:55]	Dragonfan Hooper:	isn't english mostly common on tagging
[10:55]	Tao Takashi:	like "this tag is a translation of this other tag"
[10:55]	Tao Takashi:	or "synonym"
[10:55]	Benjamin Linden:	you're right to raise the points about gaming, Jarod. that will be an ongoing issue no matter what direction we go with search
[10:55]	Christian Colville:	could have tags language identified by the selected language of the user who made the tag
[10:55]	Very Susanti:	well you should be able to normalize tags to be languague non specific
[10:56]	Christian Colville:	I guess if there is a voting system the way to make it work is to introduce some inertia of some kind into it
[10:56]	Benjamin Linden:	do you mean translate the tags, Very?
[10:56]	Tao Takashi:	english might be the most common but you will have a barrier for non-english-speaking residents
[10:56]	Very Susanti:	the tags could be mapped to an ID and corresponding tags in different laguagues would resolve to the same IDs
[10:57]	Benjamin Linden:	I see, interesting idea, Very
[10:57]	Very Susanti:	translate yes, but not necessarily from one lang to another, use a neutral format
[10:57]	Tao Takashi:	but you'd need a good UI for that ;-)
[10:57]	Christian Colville:	hmm you'd need to distinguish different meansing of the same word in a language
[10:57]	Jarod Godel:	cat = 1, gato = 1, tag a cat object with 1, and it's multi-lingual
[10:57]	Christian Colville:	e.g pool: is it a load of water or a game on a table?
[10:58]	Tao Takashi:	I would really go with that tag-relationship thing.. does not matter what language is first, you can just say, "hey, this is the german word for tag X: Y"
[10:58]	Very Susanti:	well of course such a system is only as good as the info in
[10:58]	Jarod Godel:	it's a relational database fix
[10:58]	Tao Takashi:	again topic maps, you can define relationships between these tags and RL things or super tags or whatever you want to call it
[10:58]	Tao Takashi:	but I am not sure if that is really needed here
[10:58]	Very Susanti:	and you could add some fuzzy keyword expansion, ie. metaphone or soundex
[10:58]	Very Susanti:	for misplellers
[10:59]	Christian Colville:	lol
[10:59]	Tao Takashi:	heh :)
[10:59]	Tao Takashi:	"Did you mean ...?"
[10:59]	Very Susanti:	< has a lot of experience in this area
[10:59]	Benjamin Linden:	yes, we definitely want to do keyword expansion/autocomplete
[10:59]	Benjamin Linden:	I think that helps reinforce the folksonomy
[10:59]	Benjamin Linden:	Very are you a programmer?
[10:59]	Torley Linden:	Oh wow hi everyone!
[11:00]	Tao Takashi:	Hey Torley :-)
[11:00]	Chaley May:	hi Torley
[11:00]	Very Susanti:	senior/principal programmer/architect depending on the engagement
[11:00]	Very Susanti:	Hi torley :)
[11:00]	Benjamin Linden:	very cool, Very :-)
[11:00]	Benjamin Linden:	have you looked at all at the open source code?
[11:01]	Very Susanti:	I just finished a big project on a sematic search engine
[11:01]	Very Susanti:	just got off like two weeks ago, been meaning to look at it
[11:01]	Tao Takashi:	just let Google index all the data and use Google then ;-)
[11:01]	Tao Takashi:	or do it like I do with my blog, ask Yahoo about similar stuff :)
[11:01]	Very Susanti:	Google is only part of a search solution I think
[11:02]	Tao Takashi:	lots of work saved ;-)
[11:02]	Tao Takashi:	or make SL big enough and Google will approach you ;-)
[11:02]	Very Susanti:	we looked into Google Search Appliance, and i think it would be a fortune for LL to use it they way they bill by document
[11:02]	Tao Takashi:	yeah, maybe
[11:02]	Very Susanti:	every event/location would be a docuent
[11:03]	Very Susanti:	document it would cost millions
[11:03]	Tao Takashi:	but just pretend to be a website and let the main googler google it
[11:03]	Christian Colville:	easiersaid than done..
[11:03]	Tao Takashi:	but ok, the API there is limited to a handful searches and you don't want people to go to Google
[11:03]	Benjamin Linden:	we need to wrap up today, folks, but let's plan to continue the search discussion on Thursday
[11:03]	Torley Linden:	:)
[11:03]	Torley Linden:	sounds very lively!
[11:04]	Very Susanti:	shoot I didn't get to ask the question I cam here foe lol
[11:04]	Very Susanti:	for
[11:04]	Tao Takashi:	I hope Lindens also tell us about their final plans then ;-)
[11:04]	Christian Colville:	me neither lol
[11:04]	Very Susanti:	thanks Benjamin
[11:04]	Tao Takashi:	still wondering about HTML-on-a-prim and the final plan
[11:05]	Very Susanti:	bye all
[11:05]	Benjamin Linden:	thanks for coming everyone!
[11:05]	Tao Takashi:	cya Very
[11:05]	Torley Linden:	good to see y'all
[11:05]	Tao Takashi:	thanks for hosting, Ben
[11:05]	Very Susanti:	cya
[11:05]	Gao Niangao:	thanks, ben
[11:05]	Benjamin Linden:	we can address these questions on Thursday
[11:05]	Very Susanti:	have a nice day
[11:05]	Christian Colville:	np see you later Ben
[11:05]	Benjamin Linden:	take care everybody
[11:05]	Tao Takashi:	is there a Robin office hour today?
[11:05]	Tao Takashi:	actually I should work and not hop from one hour to the next ;-)
[11:06]	Benjamin Linden:	I'm not sure, Tao, check out the google calendar
[11:06]	Torley Linden:	bye all, have a good one :)
[11:06]	Tao Takashi:	cya, Torley, good to see you again :)
[11:06]	Tao Takashi:	looks like it
[11:06]	Tao Takashi:	cya, Ben :)
[11:06]	Benjamin Linden:	cya!
[11:06]	Tao Takashi:	and come to SLCC :)