User:Benjamin Linden/Office Hours/2007 Oct 18

Transcript of Benjamin Linden's office hours:

[15:02]	Benjamin Linden:	hi all
[15:02]	Kooky Jetaime:	I came on this morning and I was still logged in
[15:02]	Kooky Jetaime:	so
[15:02]	Squirrel Wood:	Hello ^^
[15:02]	Kooky Jetaime:	24 hours connected to the grid is impressive
[15:03]	Kooky Jetaime:	Hi ben
[15:03]	Jason Swain:	test 123
[15:03]	Kooky Jetaime:	I was supposed to remember to mention something for todays meeting
[15:03]	Kooky Jetaime:	but I don't remember what
[15:03]	Kooky Jetaime:	Fail 4 5 6
[15:03]	Benjamin Linden:	hey everybody
[15:03]	chmarr Walcott:	heyas
[15:03]	Benjamin Linden:	I see you folks talking but I'm not wearing my headset
[15:03]	Benjamin Linden:	so hope it's not important!
[15:03]	Benjamin Linden:	:-)
[15:03]	chmarr Walcott:	you look like edward sissorhands on steroids and at the same time anorexia
[15:03]	Kooky Jetaime:	My remember-ball works perfectly
[15:03]	Benjamin Linden:	haha
[15:03]	chmarr Walcott:	:D
[15:03]	McPhenius Swain:	Hi gang
[15:03]	Benjamin Linden:	why do I look like an anorexic?
[15:04]	Jacek Antonelli stretches and yawns.
[15:04]	chmarr Walcott:	because its an ubar skinny av
[15:04]	Squirrel Wood:	Hellos McP ^^
[15:04]	Jason Swain:	you do?
[15:04]	Kooky Jetaime:	are you ruthed ?
[15:04]	chmarr Walcott:	oh oh oh can i get 2 million L$ XD
[15:04]	Kooky Jetaime:	after the reboot?
[15:04]	Benjamin Linden:	did this region restart already?
[15:04]	Kooky Jetaime:	yes
[15:04]	Kooky Jetaime:	Hippotropolis did 3 mins ago
[15:04]	Benjamin Linden:	I just left another meeting where it was racing through
[15:04]	Benjamin Linden:	ok
[15:05]	chmarr Walcott:	hippo was delayed for an hour
[15:05]	Jason Swain:	soft delayed it for an hour Kooky
[15:05]	Benjamin Linden:	so there were some topics suggested at the UI triage on Tuesday
[15:05]	Benjamin Linden:	but I'm drawing a blank at the moment
[15:05]	Benjamin Linden:	and I haven't posted the transcript yet :-(
[15:05]	chmarr Walcott:	whats happening about the megaprim situation
[15:05]	Kooky Jetaime:	haha
[15:05]	Kooky Jetaime:	give me a minute
[15:05]	Kooky Jetaime:	to the logs I go
[15:05]	Benjamin Linden:	does anyone have a burning UI issue they want to discuss
[15:05]	chmarr Walcott:	and can i get a beer XD
[15:05]	Benjamin Linden:	I need one too while you're at it :-)
[15:06]	chmarr Walcott:	hehe
[15:06]	Squirrel Wood:	I can light one on fire if need be?
[15:06]	Benjamin Linden:	chmarr is this the first user experience office hour you've been to?
[15:06]	chmarr Walcott:	your at work dude...no drinking on the job
[15:06]	chmarr Walcott:	unless you knock phil out XD
[15:06]	Benjamin Linden:	actually I had to come home, our network was being all flakey
[15:06]	chmarr Walcott:	and take piccys XD
[15:06]	McPhenius Swain:	Hey Sai
[15:06]	chmarr Walcott:	yer networks all flakey...now ya know what we feel like at weekends :D
[15:07]	Kooky Jetaime:	diggging..
[15:07]	chmarr Walcott:	~has a bootible sim on ma comp~ :D
[15:07]	Benjamin Linden:	what was the question about megaprims?
[15:07]	chmarr Walcott:	whats the current situation with them?
[15:08]	Kooky Jetaime:	oh
[15:08]	Kooky Jetaime:	thursdays topic
[15:08]	Kooky Jetaime:	is
[15:08]	chmarr Walcott:	are they being kicked out or are there going to be a maximum prim size increase
[15:08]	Benjamin Linden:	I'm not sure about that Chmarr had you heard something was changing?
[15:08]	Benjamin Linden:	I believe that existing megaprims were grandfathered
[15:08]	Squirrel Wood:	guessing from Everetts office hour megaprims are still being actively discussed
[15:09]	McPhenius Swain:	I kind of got that too from the Blog
[15:09]	chmarr Walcott:	theres been a lot of suggestions to compensate for the megaprim loss
[15:09]	Kooky Jetaime:	UI Do's & Don'ts, the formalization of a standard regarding UI behaivure and if it should be implimented before or after we start "fixing" "expected (and sometimes buggy) behavior" to what we think it should do.
[15:09]	Jason Swain:	Benjamin, can I throw you a screenshot of a bug I experianced?
[15:09]	Kooky Jetaime:	When H4, the grandfathering wears off
[15:09]	Benjamin Linden:	oh right, having UI guidelines
[15:09]	chmarr Walcott:	because 10x10x10 is a pain when yer trying to build a bigass town with sjmall prims
[15:09]	Benjamin Linden:	perhaps we should start a UI guidelines section on the public wiki and see if it gets built :-)
[15:09]	Kooky Jetaime:	it was discussed at Everetts' today
[15:09]	chmarr Walcott:	ok UI could be more user friendly on some parts
[15:09]	Arya Llewellyn:	/sit
[15:10]	Kooky Jetaime:	We could, but I would suggest at least a basic in place first
[15:10]	Benjamin Linden:	any specific suggestions chmarr?
[15:10]	chmarr Walcott:	like the "client options" could be made a permanent tool bar visablity
[15:10]	Benjamin Linden:	hi Arya
[15:10]	Benjamin Linden:	hey Sai
[15:10]	Saijanai Kuhn:	UI *creation* could definitely be more friendly
[15:10]	Arya Llewellyn:	Hello
[15:10]	chmarr Walcott:	instead of crtl+alt+d
[15:10]	Arya Llewellyn:	Where can I sit? lol
[15:10]	Kooky Jetaime:	Chmarr - Honestly, I'd like to see Client/Server removed entirely
[15:10]	Benjamin Linden:	somehow I knew you would say that Sai
[15:10]	Benjamin Linden:	I have some thoughts for how we can at least streamline that
[15:10]	chmarr Walcott:	the server one i would want rememved
[15:10]	Kooky Jetaime:	both
[15:10]	Jason Swain:	epps, I love the client server menus
[15:10]	Saijanai Kuhn is nothing if not a creature of habit
[15:11]	Kooky Jetaime:	and integrate Client into the main UI
[15:11]	Benjamin Linden:	there are useful tools in those menus
[15:11]	Kooky Jetaime:	because where it stands now is like "this is afterthought junk that we don't know where to put anywhere else"
[15:11]	Kooky Jetaime:	its not a proper UI
[15:11]	McPhenius Swain:	Client is goof for me
[15:11]	McPhenius Swain:	*good
[15:11]	Jacek Antonelli:	One issue I (and the other Linux users) were discussing today is the change of the "Client > Rendering > Features" keyboard shortcuts. They are now effectively useless for all Linux users.
[15:11]	Kooky Jetaime:	this kinda gets into my VWR-2438 push too..
[15:11]	Saijanai Kuhn:	but in fact, some of those items ARE "other"
[15:11]	chmarr Walcott that is a good idea, let people alter the design of there own client let people have the ability to modify the layout of the toolbar and options
[15:12]	Kooky Jetaime:	Yes Sai, but it still needs some major cleanup
[15:12]	Benjamin Linden:	I agree kooky
[15:12]	Benjamin Linden:	it's like a crutch
[15:12]	Kooky Jetaime:	and Client just isn't a good descriptive
[15:12]	Saijanai Kuhn:	that's a long term fix will require motns, per haps years, to impement
[15:12]	Benjamin Linden:	throw it there when you can't find anywhere else to put it
[15:12]	Harleen Gretzky:	you can do that already by changing the XML files
[15:12]	Kooky Jetaime:	Sai - no time to start like the present :)
[15:12]	Kooky Jetaime:	Ben - not only when you can't but if you don't want to
[15:12]	Jason Swain gave you bug4.
[15:12]	Kooky Jetaime:	Rebake Textures should be under tools.
[15:12]	Saijanai Kuhn:	I was talking about the user-defined interface
[15:12]	Kooky Jetaime:	its a wide spread tool that everyone uses
[15:12]	Saijanai Kuhn:	to do that right requires a complete overhaul of things
[15:12]	Jacek Antonelli:	It would help if the Client and Server menus were in the XML. I checked a while back, and they seemed to be hardcoded into the source >:\
[15:13]	Kooky Jetaime:	if you want, do "Adv. Tools"
[15:13]	Kooky Jetaime:	for some of the more advanced stuff
[15:13]	Jacek Antonelli:	Then, at least, it would be easier to move some of the useful things from Client into other menus
[15:13]	Benjamin Linden:	I believe most of the menus are modifiable via the XML files
[15:13]	Arya Llewellyn:	Yay! I figured out how to sit lol
[15:14]	Jacek Antonelli:	Yes, most menus are. But if I recall correctly, the Client and Server menus were the exception to that
[15:14]	Benjamin Linden:	sorry, who handed me this texture bug4?
[15:14]	Jason Swain:	I did
[15:14]	chmarr Walcott:	not all people have any XML knowlage
[15:14]	Benjamin Linden:	what's this related to Jason?
[15:14]	Saijanai Kuhn:	right, but those that don't fit any category except "other" are the ones that aren't part of the XML thing right now (in general)
[15:14]	Kooky Jetaime:	Benjamin - was it here that I suggested a meta catagory?
[15:15]	chmarr Walcott:	....
[15:15]	Jason Swain:	I could work out how best to file it on the jara and as there are no repro steps I didnt want to duplicate it, just wanted some advice on how to post it?
[15:15]	Jason Swain:	*couldnt
[15:15]	Kooky Jetaime:	or was it to Aric?
[15:16]	Benjamin Linden:	Kooky, a meta category for what?
[15:16]	Kooky Jetaime:	a Meta catagory, like VWR, SRV, have META
[15:16]	Kooky Jetaime:	that all the meta topics get pushed into
[15:16]	Kooky Jetaime:	cuz they are everywhere
[15:16]	Benjamin Linden:	Jason, do you need general advice on how to create bugs in the issue tracker?
[15:16]	Benjamin Linden:	I see
[15:16]	Saijanai Kuhn is still hoping for SCRIPT as a category
[15:16]	Benjamin Linden:	I could see that being useful
[15:17]	Benjamin Linden:	isn't LSL a category already?
[15:17]	Kooky Jetaime:	I mean, they've started adding other catagories
[15:17]	Kooky Jetaime:	No
[15:17]	Saijanai Kuhn:	its uner the others in 3 different places
[15:17]	Jason Swain:	I know how to make one a jara report, but I was worried about making a duplcate
[15:17]	Kooky Jetaime:	Current Catagories: VWR, SVC, WEB, MISC, Eventlet, Mulib, Certified HTTP
[15:17]	Benjamin Linden:	you can toss it out here, Jason, someone might know if it's already in the issue tracker
[15:17]	Saijanai Kuhn:	but NOT Script
[15:17]	Kooky Jetaime:	We should add LSL/Scripting and META
[15:17]	Saijanai Kuhn sighs heavily
[15:18]	Benjamin Linden:	oh I see what you're saying Sai
[15:18]	Benjamin Linden:	I'm open to that but really the person to ask is Rob Linden
[15:18]	Saijanai Kuhn:	He says he sees the merit but doesn't have the time
[15:18]	Saijanai Kuhn:	there's more SCRIPT related questions suggetions and bugs than any other category
[15:19]	Benjamin Linden:	interesting
[15:19]	Benjamin Linden:	well I'll ping him about it when I see him tomorrow
[15:19]	Saijanai Kuhn:	https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/WEB-153
[15:20]	Benjamin Linden:	I just had an interesting conversation about the Fly button
[15:20]	Benjamin Linden:	and how it doesn't work when you're sitting
[15:20]	Saijanai Kuhn:	153 has been around for a while
[15:20]	Benjamin Linden:	which turned into a whole long discussion about keyboard shortcuts
[15:20]	Benjamin Linden:	we decided to make pressing the Fly button while sitting actually make you stand up and fly
[15:20]	Jacek Antonelli:	Hrmm
[15:20]	Benjamin Linden:	but not to change the current keyboard behavior
[15:20]	Benjamin Linden:	what do you think?
[15:20]	Kooky Jetaime:	Oh god don't do that
[15:21]	Kooky Jetaime:	oh
[15:21]	Kooky Jetaime:	fly button = fly, home key = sit and refocus cam
[15:21]	Squirrel Wood:	better not do that... people keep hitting it on accident more than often
[15:21]	Kooky Jetaime:	?
[15:21]	Jacek Antonelli:	What was the original issue that prompted the idea to change the behavior?
[15:21]	Kooky Jetaime:	is that what you mean Ben?
[15:21]	Benjamin Linden:	because currently if you're sitting and hit the fly button nothing happens
[15:21]	Kooky Jetaime:	Right
[15:21]	Squirrel Wood:	mayhaps have SHIFT or CTRL + fly button/key do the trick..
[15:21]	Kooky Jetaime:	Well
[15:21]	Benjamin Linden:	so it should either be disabled or do what it says
[15:21]	Kooky Jetaime:	you can't sit and fly at the same time now can ya?
[15:22]	Benjamin Linden:	Kooky, you described it correctly
[15:22]	Kooky Jetaime:	ok
[15:22]	Squirrel Wood:	if you are sitting on an unstationary device.. mayhaps it should work... but if you are on a stationary object... no go ?
[15:22]	Kooky Jetaime:	well, that introduces a new problem
[15:22]	Kooky Jetaime:	if I'm sitting and hit home, why arn't I flying?
[15:22]	Kooky Jetaime:	because home is my fly key
[15:23]	Kooky Jetaime:	now your making the clickable UI behave differently than the non-clickable
[15:23]	Jacek Antonelli:	It becomes inconsistent
[15:23]	Kooky Jetaime:	yep
[15:23]	Kooky Jetaime:	and confusing
[15:23]	Kooky Jetaime:	I say leave it as is
[15:23]	Benjamin Linden:	yes
[15:23]	Benjamin Linden:	that's the problem
[15:23]	Benjamin Linden:	that's why it turned into a huge discussion
[15:23]	Benjamin Linden:	but in fact hitting the F key does a different thing than Home when sitting
[15:23]	Kooky Jetaime:	if aynthing pop up a little message on screen (not modal, but like lower right dialog) "Can't fly while sitting"
[15:24]	Benjamin Linden:	the simpler solution would be to disable fly
[15:24]	Kooky Jetaime:	because some use the button highlight to determine if they are on nofly and if they could fly
[15:24]	Benjamin Linden:	the fly button I mean
[15:24]	Kooky Jetaime:	<-- I do that
[15:24]	Kooky Jetaime:	because I have fly rights on no fly land
[15:24]	Benjamin Linden:	but doesn't it seem counter intuitive
[15:24]	Benjamin Linden:	I mean, why can't I fly from a sitting position?
[15:24]	Jacek Antonelli:	Butt is glued to the chair ;D
[15:25]	Kooky Jetaime:	because sitting your linked to an object
[15:25]	Squirrel Wood:	no fly? => view admin options and bingo. fly.
[15:25]	Kooky Jetaime:	heh
[15:25]	Jacek Antonelli:	For the same reason you can't walk around while sitting?
[15:25]	Kooky Jetaime:	squirrel -yea, people on the jira demanding that get "fixed"
[15:25]	Jacek Antonelli:	Sitting --> Avatar is stationary until they Unsit
[15:25]	Squirrel Wood:	it works as intended ^^
[15:25]	Benjamin Linden:	that's a good point Jacek
[15:25]	Benjamin Linden:	here is the specific bug
[15:26]	Kooky Jetaime:	Benjamin - how bout this
[15:26]	Saijanai Kuhn:	if you want a chair attached to your butt, wear it
[15:26]	Benjamin Linden:	https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-2272
[15:26]	Kooky Jetaime:	Replace "Fly" button with "stand up" :D
[15:26]	Kooky Jetaime:	if you sit, you can't fly
[15:26]	Kooky Jetaime:	save screen real estate
[15:26]	Jacek Antonelli:	Personally, I would lean towards graying out the Fly button. And maybe make the "Can't do that" sound if you press F.
[15:26]	Kooky Jetaime:	could enforce the mutual exclusivity
[15:26]	Benjamin Linden:	interesting idea Kooky
[15:26]	Kooky Jetaime:	you can't fly and sit at the same time
[15:26]	Saijanai Kuhn:	that was the suggestion in the jira. Seems the most logical
[15:27]	Jacek Antonelli:	Ahhh. If you sit on the ground you can fly? *goes to test, brb*
[15:27]	Saijanai Kuhn:	standup instad of fly is another one. But that puts standup in 2 places
[15:27]	Kooky Jetaime:	Naa, get rid of the existing "popup" key for Standup
[15:28]	Benjamin Linden:	how'd your test go, Jacek?
[15:28]	Kooky Jetaime:	since you can't ever fly when sitting, they are perfectly mutually exclusive
[15:28]	Jacek Antonelli:	Oh, nevermind. I misread what the sentence in the bug description was trying to communicate.
[15:28]	Saijanai Kuhn:	true
[15:28]	Jacek Antonelli:	They didn't mean, "If you sit on the ground, you can fly", they were directing us to find a parcel where we are allowed to fly, and sit there.
[15:28]	Benjamin Linden:	I'm thinking about if that would be confusing
[15:28]	Kooky Jetaime:	benjamin - then again, why do we have a fly button when the controls screen has a fly button
[15:28]	Kooky Jetaime:	its a duplicate
[15:29]	Kooky Jetaime:	Movement Controls floaty I mean
[15:29]	Jacek Antonelli:	Anyway, for the curious -- no, you can't fly from sitting on the ground. You have to stand up first, just like sitting on an object
[15:29]	Benjamin Linden:	ok thanks Jacek
[15:29]	Saijanai Kuhn:	wamts flyable ground. You can take and entire sim with out
[15:29]	Benjamin Linden:	well I confess to being a little torn on this
[15:29]	Saijanai Kuhn:	with you
[15:29]	Benjamin Linden:	now that Jacek said, "you can't walk while sitting"
[15:30]	Kooky Jetaime:	Someone remind me to beat Torley for starting this
[15:30]	Kooky Jetaime:	:P
[15:30]	Benjamin Linden:	it seems perfectly obvious that you also can't fly
[15:30]	Benjamin Linden:	haha yeah, I didn't even realize Torley opened this issue initially
[15:30]	Kooky Jetaime:	Ben - Stupid question, does the Home key "press" the fly button, or does the fly button "send a homekey"
[15:31]	Benjamin Linden:	haha good question Kooky
[15:31]	Saijanai Kuhn:	probably press the fl button
[15:31]	Kooky Jetaime:	because that adds to the complexity
[15:31]	Jacek Antonelli:	Homekey will engage fly if you hold it down long enough. But that's a toggle-able behavior
[15:31]	Kooky Jetaime:	well, hitting fly doesn't highlight the shortcut
[15:31]	Kooky Jetaime:	so
[15:31]	Benjamin Linden:	I do not know the answer to that but judging from the drawn out conversation around the keybinding system it's probably not that straightforward
[15:31]	Jacek Antonelli:	Preferences > Input & Camera > Auto Fly Options (Fly/land on holding up/down)
[15:31]	Squirrel Wood:	When you sit irl, can you jump?
[15:31]	Kooky Jetaime:	haha
[15:32]	Kooky Jetaime:	we've established they're mutually exclusive
[15:32]	Jacek Antonelli:	Squirrel: Maybe if I have very well-trained glutes ;D
[15:32]	Jacek Antonelli:	*flex*
[15:32]	Saijanai Kuhn:	http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.peace-initiatives.com/radim/2003_04_25_yogic_flying/107_0787.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.peace-initiatives.com/radim/2003_04_25_yogic_flying/page_01.htm&h=400&w=600&sz=40&hl=en&start=6&tbnid=Xb-kZL0dPxN41M:&tbnh=90&tbnw=135&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dyogic%2Bflying%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dsafari%26rls%3Den
[15:32]	Kooky Jetaime:	wow
[15:33]	Kooky Jetaime:	just had that "Freeze" on "Help/About
[15:33]	Jacek Antonelli:	I'm in favor of disabling the Fly button, and making the F key play the "donk! can't do that" sound if you try it while sitting
[15:33]	Jacek Antonelli:	The other solutions seem to be... unsolutions. Add more problems than they solve.
[15:33]	Saijanai Kuhn:	world record for high hop in lotus positoin is currently 24 inches
[15:34]	Kooky Jetaime:	hmm
[15:34]	Kooky Jetaime:	Ben - SL needs to have some CPU's added to its knowledgebase
[15:34]	Kooky Jetaime:	I have far from a "new" processor but its "unknown"
[15:34]	Jacek Antonelli:	Make a JIRA :D
[15:35]	Saijanai Kuhn:	http://www.peace-initiatives.com/radim/2003_04_25_yogic_flying/107_0787.jpg
[15:35]	Kooky Jetaime:	its not a bug or a feat req
[15:35]	Kooky Jetaime:	just a comment
[15:35]	Benjamin Linden:	what on earth are these pictures?
[15:35]	Saijanai Kuhn:	peple sitting while flying
[15:35]	Jacek Antonelli:	hehehe
[15:35]	Benjamin Linden:	lol
[15:35]	Benjamin Linden:	nice
[15:35]	Kooky Jetaime:	or.. is that... Levitation?
[15:36]	Saijanai Kuhn:	some of those guys can do that non-stop for 30 minutes without resting between hops...
[15:36]	Benjamin Linden:	Kooky, I think it's fine to add that as an issue in the issue tracker
[15:36]	Kooky Jetaime:	omg
[15:36]	Kooky Jetaime:	Ben - how do you determine proc type?
[15:36]	Kooky Jetaime:	er, how does SL
[15:37]	Benjamin Linden:	I have no idea, Kooky
[15:37]	Benjamin Linden:	I'm just a UI designer :-)
[15:37]	Saijanai Kuhn:	proc type?
[15:37]	Kooky Jetaime:	processor
[15:37]	Benjamin Linden:	so we're very close to releasing the preview files for the new look and feel
[15:37]	Saijanai Kuhn:	its platform dependent.
[15:37]	Saijanai Kuhn:	There's calls on each OS to give that info back
[15:37]	Benjamin Linden:	https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Viewer_Visual_Update
[15:38]	Jacek Antonelli:	You mean they didn't give you omniscience when you became a Linden? I guess I have to pay off some bets now.
[15:38]	Benjamin Linden:	just doing a bit of last-minute fixes and then I'll send out a link so people can try it out
[15:38]	Kooky Jetaime:	ok
[15:38]	Squirrel Wood:	Sample Files Coming soon...
[15:38]	Benjamin Linden:	that's where it will be
[15:38]	Jacek Antonelli:	Benjamin: Oh! Thanks for linking that page, I was trying all sorts of searches to find it, but nothing was coming up
[15:38]	Benjamin Linden:	the link
[15:38]	Benjamin Linden:	yeah it's not easy to find unfortunately
[15:39]	Jacek Antonelli:	I wanted to mention -- beware the Gradients of Unreadable Buttons!
[15:39]	Benjamin Linden:	haha yes, we've identified that as a problem
[15:39]	Benjamin Linden:	you mean the high contrast between the top and bottom gradients I assume
[15:40]	Kooky Jetaime:	ben
[15:40]	Kooky Jetaime:	You were an ICQ user, wern't you?
[15:40]	Benjamin Linden:	haha no, why do you say that?
[15:40]	Benjamin Linden:	I use Trillian
[15:40]	Kooky Jetaime:	this image rieks of ICQ stylings
[15:40]	Kooky Jetaime:	newview.jpg
[15:40]	Benjamin Linden:	but never had ICQ
[15:40]	Jacek Antonelli:	hehehe
[15:40]	Benjamin Linden:	well I didn't do the art
[15:40]	Kooky Jetaime:	Jacek - you agree?
[15:40]	Benjamin Linden:	but it seems to be pretty typical of the new glossy feel of buttons these days
[15:41]	Kooky Jetaime:	Ben, I am gonna have to side with Sai
[15:41]	Kooky Jetaime:	build a skinnable UI
[15:41]	Benjamin Linden:	there is a team working on that
[15:41]	Jacek Antonelli:	Yes. Glossy, shiny, web 2.0. Needs more drop-shadows and lickables, though.
[15:41]	Kooky Jetaime:	and just give us one hell of a nice default skin
[15:41]	Kooky Jetaime:	lickables?
[15:41]	Kooky Jetaime:	I don't wanna see your screen Jacek
[15:41]	Benjamin Linden:	but the skinnable UI stuff won't be ready for at least another six months
[15:41]	Jacek Antonelli:	Everything on the UI should have at least 2 separate drop shadows. It's an industry standard.
[15:42]	Jacek Antonelli nods sagely.
[15:42]	Jacek Antonelli:	>_>
[15:42]	Kooky Jetaime:	well, then lets just live with what we have
[15:42]	Saijanai Kuhn:	Jobs calls the Mac interface "lickable"
[15:42]	Squirrel Wood:	fsaa, motion blur, HDR, ...
[15:42]	Kooky Jetaime:	you don't want to throw out 2 UI redesigns inside of a year
[15:42]	Benjamin Linden:	part of what we're trying to accomplish with this project is identifying the things that need to be fixed to make the UI skinnable
[15:42]	Kooky Jetaime:	oh ok
[15:42]	Benjamin Linden:	Kooky, are you saying you like the current UI better?
[15:42]	Saijanai Kuhn:	and beyond skinnable is interactive with things like Windlight
[15:43]	Kooky Jetaime:	well
[15:43]	Kooky Jetaime:	if it meant learning two UIs yea
[15:43]	Kooky Jetaime:	make 1 change
[15:43]	Kooky Jetaime:	otherwise your gonna have a lot of groans
[15:43]	Benjamin Linden:	oh I see what you mean
[15:43]	Saijanai Kuhn:	https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Use_Cases#Extended_Capability_Clients
[15:43]	Benjamin Linden:	well technically the skinning stuff doesn't mean we'll change the look of the UI again
[15:43]	Kooky Jetaime:	even windows hasn't changed its UI significantly in 12 years
[15:44]	Kooky Jetaime:	compared to Win 3.1
[15:44]	Benjamin Linden:	xp and vista were both pretty dramatic visual updates
[15:44]	Benjamin Linden:	the basic elements did not change
[15:44]	Benjamin Linden:	and they won't with this "update" either
[15:44]	Saijanai Kuhn:	once the clint server goes completely open, youll see pretty amazing variations in clients
[15:44]	Kooky Jetaime:	visual yea.. you can change those til the cows come home
[15:44]	Kooky Jetaime:	its the elements that people need
[15:44]	Saijanai Kuhn:	https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Use_Cases#Viewer_related_Use_Cases
[15:44]	Benjamin Linden:	we won't be changing any of the functionality with this
[15:45]	Kooky Jetaime:	ok, I'm lost in limbo land
[15:45]	Benjamin Linden:	it's only a cosmetic update
[15:45]	Benjamin Linden:	swapping out UI images and color settings
[15:45]	Kooky Jetaime:	you know, as much as some times people complain
[15:45]	Benjamin Linden:	with the goal of modernizing the appearance, making it more legible, etc.
[15:45]	Jacek Antonelli:	I was curious about the decision to go with dark text on a light background for "increased legibility". It was always my understanding that light text on a dark background was easier to read.
[15:46]	Kooky Jetaime:	There is one element of the UI that I love as it stands right now
[15:46]	Kooky Jetaime:	its not invasively flashy
[15:46]	Benjamin Linden:	there's some controversy around that Jackek but most literature shows dark on light is more readable
[15:46]	Kooky Jetaime:	if I go into a dark sim, the dark UI stays out of the way
[15:46]	Kooky Jetaime:	if everything gets bright and silvery.. ugh
[15:46]	Jason Swain:	I know alot of people with learning disablitys that find white on black better for reading
[15:46]	Jacek Antonelli:	Alrighty
[15:46]	Jason Swain:	MS Word even has White text on blue for this reason
[15:47]	Benjamin Linden:	we certainly want to get to a point where people can customize the colors to whichever suits them best
[15:47]	Jacek Antonelli:	That's good :)
[15:47]	Kooky Jetaime:	Ben - lets start with user adjustable colorings
[15:47]	Benjamin Linden:	you guys have to understand that all the things you're suggesting require developer resources
[15:47]	Benjamin Linden:	which are very tight right now
[15:47]	Benjamin Linden:	this particular project is happening with minimal dev support
[15:48]	Benjamin Linden:	which is why it's simply a cosmetic update
[15:48]	Benjamin Linden:	I would encourage you to post your design ideas on the wiki or in jira and try to rally support in the open source community to get it built
[15:48]	Kooky Jetaime:	Benjamin
[15:48]	Kooky Jetaime:	if the UI is XML based right now
[15:48]	Benjamin Linden:	because honestly it's unlikely to get attention in the near future
[15:48]	Kooky Jetaime:	isn't it effectively restart-skinable?
[15:48]	Kooky Jetaime:	change the selected XML files and you have a new skin (colors, etc?)
[15:48]	Benjamin Linden:	yes Kooky, it's most reskinnable today
[15:49]	Benjamin Linden:	right, that's what we're doing with this project
[15:49]	Kooky Jetaime:	ok
[15:49]	Benjamin Linden:	but there are holes in the skinning story
[15:49]	Benjamin Linden:	and bugs
[15:49]	Benjamin Linden:	it's not completely abstracted
[15:49]	Benjamin Linden:	as Sai can tell you :-)
[15:49]	Saijanai Kuhn:	did you read those suggestions, Kooky? I thought maybe the one about flash clients might have been yoru input
[15:49]	Benjamin Linden:	has anyone else here played with the XML?
[15:49]	PulseBurst Flow:	Sorry...was late...What is the project called...gather it's to update the UI..
[15:49]	Kooky Jetaime:	flash clients? no
[15:50]	Saijanai Kuhn:	ah, OK, maybe it was Tree
[15:50]	Benjamin Linden:	here's the link PulseBurst
[15:50]	Benjamin Linden:	https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Viewer_Visual_Update
[15:50]	PulseBurst Flow:	and is there any docs on changes
[15:50]	PulseBurst Flow:	thanks...
[15:50]	Kooky Jetaime:	Benjamin - Nicholaz has done a nice skin job of the UI so far
[15:50]	Kooky Jetaime:	ever use the Nicholaz Edition?
[15:51]	Benjamin Linden:	he's change the visual appearance?
[15:51]	Benjamin Linden:	I downloaded it but haven't had achance to use it
[15:51]	Jacek Antonelli:	Here's another suggestion that takes developer resources -- but maybe also creates some. What about posting the issues that your UI team find, on the PJIRA or similar? This is one area that the open source community can make a difference.
[15:51]	Kooky Jetaime:	he's held the old pre-voice UI setup
[15:51]	Kooky Jetaime:	ie: friends and groups are not part of the chatterbox
[15:51]	Benjamin Linden:	right I knew about that
[15:51]	PulseBurst Flow:	looks good...the dark grey blue on grey in the middle section of the menu bar is a pet peeve of mine
[15:51]	Benjamin Linden:	I'll have to check it out
[15:51]	Kooky Jetaime:	just try not to break what he's done :)
[15:52]	Benjamin Linden:	the new Electric Sheep viewer is interesting too
[15:52]	Kooky Jetaime:	I love having independant frineds/groups
[15:52]	Kooky Jetaime:	I have not played with that but I guess I should
[15:52]	Benjamin Linden:	the next version of Voice will have the ability to undock contacts
[15:52]	Jason Swain quitely asked, "has anybody seen a viewer bug like this one? https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-2785"
[15:52]	PulseBurst Flow:	Will there be any ability to change font size in Chat & IM windows?
[15:52]	Saijanai Kuhn:	You can do that right now if you use my patch
[15:53]	Benjamin Linden:	eventually I hope so yes
[15:53]	Kooky Jetaime:	Hmm looking
[15:53]	Kooky Jetaime:	oh no
[15:53]	Benjamin Linden:	have you submitted that patch Sai?
[15:53]	Kooky Jetaime:	never
[15:53]	Saijanai Kuhn:	its a fudge though
[15:53]	Kooky Jetaime:	sounds like a video issue
[15:53]	Saijanai Kuhn:	NO keep meaning to. Its only a few lines of code
[15:53]	PulseBurst Flow:	Thanks Kuhn...I'd like to see that..I did it myself for the Chat window by modding the XML
[15:53]	Kooky Jetaime:	Jason - what I find interesting in this
[15:53]	Kooky Jetaime:	is the fact that everything is mucked up
[15:53]	Saijanai Kuhn:	but it sits inside the text editor itself which is a horrible place to put something, programing wise
[15:53]	PulseBurst Flow:	but it doesn't survive upgrades.
[15:53]	Kooky Jetaime:	EXCEPT the Stats bar on the right
[15:54]	Jason Swain:	guestures are not though?
[15:54]	Saijanai Kuhn:	it changes the font size for anything that uses the multi-line text editor. Special cased the LSL editor though
[15:55]	Kooky Jetaime:	Jason, gestures?
[15:55]	Saijanai Kuhn:	font sizes are ... amusing in Second LIfe
[15:55]	Benjamin Linden:	I can imagine
[15:55]	Saijanai Kuhn:	they use three different sized TrueType fonts
[15:55]	Benjamin Linden:	ok folks I need to run a bit early today
[15:55]	PulseBurst Flow:	Is it limited to just the fonts & sizes in SL already...3 I think
[15:55]	Benjamin Linden:	thanks for your input on the UI update project
[15:55]	Benjamin Linden:	I will have those files uploaded in the next few days
[15:55]	Jason Swain:	kooky, yes that lable is readable
[15:55]	Kooky Jetaime:	Jason - I'd suggest trying to turn off SL features first
[15:56]	Kooky Jetaime:	then turn off HW acceleration in Windows
[15:56]	Benjamin Linden:	so hopefully you'll be able to use it and provide some feedback at next week's meeting
[15:56]	Saijanai Kuhn:	the way text works, you'd have to add another font to get a larger font size
[15:56]	Jason Swain:	Kooky, it happens on anouther of my PCs
[15:56]	Jacek Antonelli:	Sounds grean, Benjamin! Take care!
[15:56]	Squirrel Wood:	https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-2785
[15:56]	Jacek Antonelli:	great*
[15:56]	Saijanai Kuhn:	back to the days of Apple ][ games
[15:56]	Kooky Jetaime:	Jason - It looks like its a font issue
[15:56]	Benjamin Linden:	take care everybody!
[15:56]	Jason Swain:	See you, Benjamin
[15:56]	Saijanai Kuhn:	take care Benjamin
[15:56]	Squirrel Wood:	cyas
[15:56]	PulseBurst Flow:	Thanks Benjamin