User:Benjamin Linden/Office Hours/2007 Sep 13

Transcript of Benjamin Linden's office hours:

[15:00]	Squirrel Wood:	Holla
[15:00]	Antonius Camus:	Hello
[15:00]	Benjamin Linden:	Hi everyone!
[15:01]	Benjamin Linden:	How's everybody doing?
[15:01]	Handmadeandroid Zenovka:	still rezin hope im not sitinhg on anyone
[15:01]	Handmadeandroid Zenovka:	im good thanks
[15:01]	Kooky Jetaime:	ok
[15:01]	Ciaran Laval:	Well after being sent to an invalid region I think I've recovered now!
[15:01]	Kooky Jetaime:	Just scripting here...
[15:01]	Benjamin Linden:	Hey Kooky, just a quick update on that Jira task for doubleclick behavior in Inventory
[15:02]	Kooky Jetaime:	Hm?
[15:02]	Kooky Jetaime:	the meta one or ?
[15:02]	Benjamin Linden:	the meta one
[15:02]	Benjamin Linden:	we are planning to make those changes you outlined, there are just a few design considerations that need to be worked out before we engage the devs on it
[15:02]	Handmadeandroid Zenovka:	theres a bug in the preview viewer
[15:02]	Kooky Jetaime gets his jira
[15:02]	Benjamin Linden:	the main one being people were worried that doubleclicking a landmark to TP is too abrupt
[15:03]	Handmadeandroid Zenovka:	when you roll fast through your camera pan the screen goes solid colour
[15:03]	Squirrel Wood:	mayhaps pop up a dialog "You are about to teleport to xxyyzz. Proceed? [yes][no]" ?
[15:04]	Benjamin Linden:	yes, that's the plan Squirrel
[15:04]	Benjamin Linden:	we're going to have a warning dialog with a "never show me this again" checkbox
[15:04]	Squirrel Wood:	^^
[15:04]	Squirrel Wood:	Bunneh!
[15:05]	Squirrel Wood throws https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/MISC-632 at Ben and anyone who has not voted on it yet ^^
[15:05]	Kooky Jetaime:	Benjamin, are you referring to 1825?
[15:05]	Benjamin Linden:	yes Kooky
[15:05]	Benjamin Linden:	sorry I should've provided the link
[15:05]	Kooky Jetaime:	no its ok, just wanted to make sure
[15:05]	Handmadeandroid Zenovka:	is this just for talking about technical issues
[15:05]	Squirrel Wood:	26 votes is not enough ^^
[15:05]	Kooky Jetaime:	Ben, to respond I point to 1850
[15:06]	Benjamin Linden:	which part specifically
[15:06]	Kooky Jetaime:	It provides an out for the "Too abrupt" teleport
[15:06]	Benjamin Linden:	let me look again
[15:06]	Kooky Jetaime:	as well as not breaking "expected" current behavior as that was voiced here as a great concern regarding switching to a double-click direct
[15:06]	Handmadeandroid Zenovka:	can you fix the shoes up the rear bug!
[15:06]	Handmadeandroid Zenovka:	lol
[15:06]	Handmadeandroid Zenovka:	thats annoying as hell
[15:06]	Kooky Jetaime:	I've not had shoes up the bum in ages
[15:06]	Kooky Jetaime:	oh wait.. I don't wear shoes..
[15:07]	Benjamin Linden:	lol, is that on the UI triage agenda, HandmadeAndroid?
[15:07]	Handmadeandroid Zenovka:	ive had bad bum shoeing today
[15:07]	Kooky Jetaime:	Hand - its not happening often is it?
[15:07]	Benjamin Linden:	oh right, the preferences options
[15:07]	Handmadeandroid Zenovka:	quite
[15:07]	Benjamin Linden:	my feeling is that we already have too many preferences
[15:07]	Handmadeandroid Zenovka:	and i keep losing my sky
[15:07]	Squirrel Wood:	be happy its just your shoes. Furry Avatars suffer much worse from that bug :(
[15:07]	Benjamin Linden:	some things we should just pick good defaults and stick with them
[15:07]	Kooky Jetaime:	Ben - never too many preferences for tweakers... if there were, TweakUI wouldn't exist
[15:08]	Kooky Jetaime:	you could always put a flag on that tab and say "Nothing here needs to be changed" or "For advanced users only"
[15:08]	Ciaran Laval:	People tinker though and cause chaos given too much choice
[15:08]	Squirrel Wood:	Mayhaps split the prefs into basic/advanced ?
[15:08]	McCabe Maxsted:	I would love more preferences
[15:08]	Kooky Jetaime:	Squirrel - that I think was something raised in another jira isue
[15:08]	Benjamin Linden:	that's true, Kooky, but TweakUI also isn't provided by default in Windows
[15:09]	Kooky Jetaime:	Benjamin - But Debug Settings is
[15:09]	Kooky Jetaime:	in SLs case
[15:09]	Squirrel Wood:	more preferences means more stuff to tweak and more things to screw up :p
[15:09]	Benjamin Linden:	I believe that this meeting isn't a representative sample of the entire SL userbase :-)
[15:09]	Kooky Jetaime:	all your doing is buffing it up and putting a nice face on it
[15:09]	Saijanai Kuhn considers himself prtty normal
[15:09]	Handmadeandroid Zenovka:	im never shure what to set my bandwidth at
[15:09]	Saijanai Kuhn:	clock show
[15:09]	Handmadeandroid Zenovka:	im on a 2mb line
[15:09]	Saijanai Kuhn:	what time is it?
[15:09]	Turtle: See that little set of numbers at the top of the screen, on the right? Sheesh.
[15:09]	Squirrel Wood:	provide a "Restore previous/default settings" button for the prefs ?
[15:10]	Kooky Jetaime:	if we wanted to argue against preferences, why do we have the debug settings? or the debug menus for that matter
[15:10]	Saijanai Kuhn:	utf-8 show
[15:10]	Squirrel Wood:	16 mbit here...
[15:10]	Squirrel Wood:	and SL nowhere near uses it
[15:10]	Handmadeandroid Zenovka:	lol
[15:10]	Kooky Jetaime:	They persist because a core group of the demographic populace wants and uses them on a regular basis
[15:10]	McCabe Maxsted:	there's a jira for t hat squirrel
[15:10]	Saijanai Kuhn:	clock hide
[15:10]	Kooky Jetaime:	The n00bs, and untechnical never turn them on, and thats more power to them
[15:10]	Benjamin Linden:	we are adding a restore defaults feature to prefs, squirrel
[15:11]	Benjamin Linden:	Kooky, debug settings is an interesting thing
[15:11]	Squirrel Wood:	Yay!
[15:11]	Benjamin Linden:	I sort of feel like it's a cop out for all those things no one could figure out how to put in the UI, or couldn't make a decision on how it should behave
[15:11]	Handmadeandroid Zenovka:	you press a button and suddenly loads of trailor parks spring up
[15:11]	Handmadeandroid Zenovka:	lol
[15:12]	Benjamin Linden:	I wish there was a better way to separate those things out and make it less scary; maybe advanced prefs is an approach for doing that
[15:12]	McCabe Maxsted:	that's a good point benjamin. Took me a while after I was a n00b to find the debug settings
[15:12]	Kooky Jetaime:	I would love to see someone code an "Advanced Preferences" screen with a whole new list of tabs, and work some of that over to it...
[15:12]	Handmadeandroid Zenovka:	yes me too
[15:12]	Kooky Jetaime:	And just put a checkbox in the preferences, "Show Advanced Options"
[15:12]	Handmadeandroid Zenovka:	now i can never turn the axis off
[15:12]	Handmadeandroid Zenovka:	lol
[15:12]	Handmadeandroid Zenovka:	even if i do they come back on
[15:12]	Kooky Jetaime:	would show the Debug Menus, and Adv. Prefs
[15:12]	McCabe Maxsted:	with common debug settings moved to an advanced preference window, and some other useful bits
[15:13]	Kooky Jetaime:	and we can just fill it up with the nitty gritty "use at your own risk" stuff.. and if they are adding a "Restore" feature to SL, even a newb who trespassed could undo it.
[15:13]	Benjamin Linden:	yes, something like an advanced user mode has been tossed around. it can be tricky to design right
[15:13]	McCabe Maxsted:	like font size for example
[15:13]	Benjamin Linden:	Saijanai are you a naked bike rider?
[15:13]	Ciaran Laval:	Too many prefs will scare some new users
[15:13]	Benjamin Linden:	sorry that's off topic, I just keep noticing that text floating over you
[15:13]	Saijanai Kuhn:	LOL. That's just a gaping wound in the design of the text editor class
[15:14]	Saijanai Kuhn:	nyah Is a test of ascii graphics
[15:14]	Benjamin Linden:	so I had hoped to post some stuff to the wiki about the work we're doing to update the look and feel of the viewer
[15:14]	Saijanai Kuhn:	dance kirby
[15:14]	McCabe Maxsted:	ascii art is ftw
[15:14]	Kooky Jetaime:	Ben - Hell, you could even make "Advanced" options available via a command line param... "-advanaced" for example... I wouldn't mind that, IF the SL installer would quit overwriting my shortcuts!
[15:14]	Squirrel Wood:	yup. best to keep the prefs simple and put all the fancy stuff in an advanced view/window/mode/whatever XD
[15:14]	Kooky Jetaime:	if you know how to do a CL param, then you can poke around the advanced stuff
[15:15]	Benjamin Linden:	hmm, is there a jira task open for the command line overwrite thing, Kooky?
[15:15]	Kooky Jetaime:	a built in safegard
[15:15]	Kooky Jetaime:	nope
[15:15]	Kooky Jetaime:	just thought of it myself
[15:15]	Benjamin Linden:	maybe you should open it :-)
[15:15]	Benjamin Linden:	sounds worth fixing
[15:15]	Kooky Jetaime:	well
[15:15]	Dnate Mars:	I would vote for it
[15:15]	Kooky Jetaime:	is there a pjira for an advanced prefs?
[15:15]	Saijanai Kuhn:	the problem with the command line is that it is doing double duty right now
[15:15]	Handmadeandroid Zenovka:	why does it always need fixing?
[15:15]	Kooky Jetaime:	Howso Sai?
[15:15]	Saijanai Kuhn:	on the mac, command lines are handled via a text file
[15:15]	Handmadeandroid Zenovka:	lol
[15:16]	Kooky Jetaime:	Sounds the same as a Win shortcut
[15:16]	Saijanai Kuhn:	which is hidden inside the second life application
[15:16]	Kooky Jetaime:	**Mac OSX ignroant**
[15:16]	Kooky Jetaime's face glazes over and goes "Duhhhhhh"
[15:17]	Benjamin Linden:	Just to give you guys a heads-up, I'll need to leave the meeting early today (in about 20 minutes)
[15:17]	Saijanai Kuhn:	Mac OS X applications are really directories with .app extensions. The desktop displays them as a file, and when you double click, it hunts for an executable for your platform
[15:17]	Benjamin Linden:	were there follow-up issues from Tuesday's triage people wanted to discuss?
[15:17]	Kooky Jetaime:	Sai - well, it seems then that it would be just as "preventative" with regards to mac
[15:17]	Kooky Jetaime:	If you know enough to enable it, then your safe to use it
[15:17]	Saijanai Kuhn:	you can hide an entire directory tree of files in a Mac application
[15:18]	Kooky Jetaime:	Sai - almost seems like Mac Applications are just images
[15:18]	McCabe Maxsted:	yes, my minimizing issue was reopened with more info
[15:18]	Ciaran Laval:	The XHTML issue Benjamin, I can't remember who said that should be fixed, was it you? Torley wasn't impressed when I said he might have said it
[15:18]	Benjamin Linden:	hmm, which issue is that?
[15:18]	Benjamin Linden:	the XHTML
[15:18]	Benjamin Linden:	McCabe, which issue are you referring to?
[15:19]	Ciaran Laval:	Something about the site not being compliant, lemme see if I can find it
[15:19]	Benjamin Linden:	is this related to the viewer, Ciaran?
[15:19]	McCabe Maxsted:	VWR-2306
[15:20]	Ciaran Laval:	Never mind I've forgotten where it was. I'll have to take notes next time
[15:21]	Benjamin Linden:	oh right, this one
[15:21]	McCabe Maxsted:	it's something that bugs me routinely and sort of relates to advanced preferences
[15:21]	Benjamin Linden:	McCabe, I have a question related to this bug
[15:21]	Benjamin Linden:	why do you use minimize when most windows have a "hidden" state
[15:21]	Benjamin Linden:	i.e, you can just close them instead
[15:21]	Benjamin Linden:	just trying to understand the use cases here
[15:22]	Ciaran Laval:	VWR-2322
[15:22]	McCabe Maxsted:	because I have multiple scripting windows open and I minimize them to see the results
[15:22]	Ciaran Laval:	Sorry, I can't multitask at all!
[15:22]	McCabe Maxsted:	or have textures I minimize to wait for t hem to load
[15:22]	McCabe Maxsted:	or notecards I can't read right now but need to remember to read later
[15:22]	McCabe Maxsted:	so it's something I use a lot
[15:23]	Benjamin Linden:	ah ok, that makes sense. so you don't have to go digging through inventory
[15:23]	Benjamin Linden:	I was thinking about windows like search or communicate
[15:23]	Handmadeandroid Zenovka:	its a shame sl cant be split over two monitors
[15:23]	Benjamin Linden:	it always seemed a little strange that those can be minimized
[15:23]	McCabe Maxsted:	yeah, I've always used shortcuts for thsoe
[15:24]	Benjamin Linden:	let me review the comments in this jira, hang on
[15:24]	Kitto Flora:	I filed bug like VWR2306 years ago, and its still bugging me. Its a persistent problem
[15:24]	Squirrel Wood:	definitely need to update that ticket with the information given here... ^^
[15:24]	Benjamin Linden:	would it make more sense to simply raise the height of the chat text when there are minimized windows?
[15:25]	Handmadeandroid Zenovka:	yes
[15:25]	Kitto Flora:	Benjami: Exactly
[15:25]	McCabe Maxsted:	that would be a simple enough workaround
[15:25]	Kitto Flora:	Thats What I requested in my bug report
[15:26]	Kitto Flora:	Chat bottom line *OUGHT* to move up if windows are minimised
[15:26]	Benjamin Linden:	did we import this on Tuesday?
[15:27]	Benjamin Linden:	hmm it doesn't appear so
[15:27]	McCabe Maxsted:	i think other corners might be preferrable for others, as argent mentioned
[15:28]	McCabe Maxsted:	don't know how hard that would be to implement as an option though
[15:28]	Kooky Jetaime:	oy, this issue is gonna be linked and a half
[15:29]	McCabe Maxsted:	hehe I couldn't sleep last night kooky, so I was up linking jira issues. I think I'm addicted
[15:29]	Benjamin Linden:	Kooky, why do you think the XHTML bug is a UI issue?
[15:29]	Kooky Jetaime:	oh
[15:29]	Benjamin Linden:	I love you guys for linking issues!
[15:29]	Kooky Jetaime:	sorry, I'm speaking to myself, about the pjira that I'm making for the Advanced mode.
[15:29]	Benjamin Linden:	well, still, I'm curious about the XHTML bug
[15:30]	Kooky Jetaime:	I don't have a clue on that one honestly...
[15:30]	Benjamin Linden:	oh I thought that was your bug, Kooky
[15:30]	Squirrel Wood:	I spy a Morpheus Linden
[15:31]	Kooky Jetaime:	Nope
[15:31]	Kooky Jetaime:	XHTML.. I try to avoid issues that have acronyms as long as my name
[15:31]	Ciaran Laval:	I raised the issue here Benjamin, I'm getting my triages mixed up but can't remember who said it needs fixing
[15:31]	Benjamin Linden:	oh sorry, that was Ciaran's
[15:31]	Benjamin Linden:	I don't think it's really a UI bug, Ciaran
[15:32]	Benjamin Linden:	I'm not sure how to classify it
[15:32]	Saijanai Kuhn:	a useful thing fo rhte communcicate window would be to hide teh buttons and allow it to shrink further when those are hidden
[15:32]	Benjamin Linden:	which buttons Saijanai?
[15:32]	Ciaran Laval:	No it's not, at Bridie's someone suggested you might have been the one who said it needs fixing. I know someone did lol
[15:32]	Handmadeandroid Zenovka:	laters folk, nice meeting you all
[15:32]	McCabe Maxsted:	benjamin, did you ever look at https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-1076 ?
[15:32]	McCabe Maxsted:	I notice it's still unassigned
[15:32]	Benjamin Linden:	lol well I'm not sure why they said that
[15:32]	Saijanai Kuhn:	the contacts buttons on the far right
[15:33]	Squirrel Wood:	ctrl-t hides the comm window :p
[15:33]	Squirrel Wood:	and also shows it again when needed
[15:33]	Benjamin Linden:	I'm still not understanding what you mean Sai
[15:33]	Saijanai Kuhn:	but you might want to monitor that 2-3 line of text
[15:33]	Benjamin Linden:	yes McCabe, I've reviewed this one many times, believe me
[15:33]	Benjamin Linden:	we are further iterating the UI in the next voice release
[15:34]	Benjamin Linden:	in fact I've been spending a fair amount of time working on that lately
[15:34]	Saijanai Kuhn:	OK, right now, if the communicate window is unified, there is a minimum size for it ithat is waaay too big, expecialy if you have scaled teh UI
[15:34]	Benjamin Linden:	Sai, we tried to make the min size as close to the old chat history size as possible
[15:34]	Benjamin Linden:	it's slightly taller but not by much
[15:35]	Benjamin Linden:	but you can separate those windows and make them whatever size you want, right?
[15:35]	Saijanai Kuhn:	my eyes are bad enough that I scale the UI to the full 1.4 AND use my text size patch
[15:35]	Saijanai Kuhn:	but the unified window is still too large, IMHO
[15:35]	Ciaran Laval:	Do they stay separated?
[15:35]	Benjamin Linden:	ack, I wish we support multiple monitors
[15:35]	Benjamin Linden:	yes, Ciaran
[15:35]	Ciaran Laval:	I mean when you log back in?
[15:35]	Benjamin Linden:	it should, yes
[15:35]	Squirrel Wood:	yes
[15:36]	Squirrel Wood:	history and communicate definitely stay separate
[15:36]	Ciaran Laval:	Ok, great.
[15:36]	Squirrel Wood:	ctrl-h for history, ctrl-t for comm
[15:36]	Benjamin Linden:	with the next release you will be able to separate contacts
[15:36]	Saijanai Kuhn:	scale the UI up and watch how big that comunicate window gets
[15:37]	Benjamin Linden:	I do have a question about something related to the communicate window
[15:37]	Benjamin Linden:	specifically the IM window
[15:37]	Squirrel Wood:	22" tft here... text size small and UI size 0.9.... but then again my eyes are still ok
[15:37]	Benjamin Linden:	there was a patch submitted to add a "Offer Teleport" button to the top of the IM window
[15:37]	Benjamin Linden:	let em find the link
[15:38]	Benjamin Linden:	https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/MISC-82
[15:38]	Squirrel Wood:	plenty of room for that there is
[15:38]	Benjamin Linden:	there's a screenshot
[15:38]	McCabe Maxsted:	yes, i've applied it to my own veiwer
[15:38]	McCabe Maxsted:	I've found it useful
[15:38]	Benjamin Linden:	actually squirrel at the min size there isn't
[15:38]	Benjamin Linden:	it makes the window slightly larger
[15:38]	Kooky Jetaime:	VWR-2438 created, regarding an "Advanced" mode of SL, with some sub tasks and cross linking... I'm still working on it, but if it sounds good, give er a vote :)
[15:39]	Benjamin Linden:	my point being, people want this additional functionality but they also want small windows
[15:39]	Ciaran Laval:	How big would the button have to be?
[15:39]	Benjamin Linden:	my proposal was to replace the Profile button with a dropdown that has a list of frequent commands, like View Profile, Offer Teleport, Pay, etc
[15:39]	Kooky Jetaime:	Amalia
[15:39]	Kooky Jetaime:	Please, can you lose the cloak? :)
[15:40]	Squirrel Wood:	I suspect what people are complaining about is not the minimum width of the comm window but the minimum height
[15:40]	Kooky Jetaime:	pretty please?
[15:40]	McCabe Maxsted:	that's a good idea
[15:40]	Kooky Jetaime:	and the curtain don't help either
[15:40]	McCabe Maxsted:	woudl shrink the height back down to prevoice size
[15:41]	Benjamin Linden:	well the height is driven by the participant list
[15:41]	Amalia Broome:	Thank god I'm not naked!
[15:41]	Benjamin Linden:	which lets you control volume levels, etc
[15:41]	Ciaran Laval:	Would you still leave call where it is?
[15:41]	Ciaran Laval:	Or would that be in the drop down too?
[15:41]	Benjamin Linden:	Yes, I think we'd leave call because it's specific to the IM window and it changes to End Call
[15:42]	Benjamin Linden:	so it provides state information
[15:42]	Ciaran Laval:	Shows how often I use it !
[15:42]	Benjamin Linden:	haha
[15:42]	McCabe Maxsted:	would it allow for a give inventory via IM?
[15:42]	Ciaran Laval:	I think the drop down would be fine to be honest, I'd prefer that. People would squeal at first but it makes sense really
[15:43]	Benjamin Linden:	hmm, that's a good question McCabe, I'm not sure how we could support that
[15:43]	Benjamin Linden:	in the dropdown
[15:43]	McCabe Maxsted:	I think anything that reduces the load of having to open their profile would be nice
[15:43]	Benjamin Linden:	why do you think they would squeal Ciaran?
[15:43]	Ciaran Laval:	Agreed McCabe
[15:43]	Benjamin Linden:	I agree, McCabe
[15:43]	Kitto Flora:	Where is this 'Teleport Button' implemented in the IM window?
[15:43]	Kooky Jetaime:	ok
[15:43]	Benjamin Linden:	I just wasn't sure teleport merited its own button, when the others didn't
[15:44]	Benjamin Linden:	Kitto you can see it in the screenshot:
[15:44]	Kooky Jetaime:	Teleport is usesful
[15:44]	Benjamin Linden:	https://jira.lindenlab.com/secure/attachment/18015/18015_UI+result+of+patch+4.jpg
[15:44]	McCabe Maxsted:	opens a find menu to your inventory, perhaps. Right now you can only send one item at a time, anyway
[15:44]	Benjamin Linden:	it hasn't been released yet
[15:44]	Ciaran Laval:	Why do you use words instead of symbols?
[15:44]	Kitto Flora:	Is it in the present release or some future release?
[15:44]	Benjamin Linden:	in which case, Ciaran?
[15:44]	Kitto Flora:	I dont see it in the beta client here
[15:44]	Benjamin Linden:	the next release of voice will have many more icons
[15:44]	Ciaran Laval:	Profile, teleport etc
[15:44]	Benjamin Linden:	Kitto, that patch hasn't been integrated yet
[15:44]	Kitto Flora:	OK
[15:44]	McCabe Maxsted:	it puts it in the upper right
[15:45]	Benjamin Linden:	ok folks I have to run, sorry for breaking a little early
[15:45]	Benjamin Linden:	thanks for your feedback
[15:45]	McCabe Maxsted:	ciaran: consistency, I imagine. Most of the viewer is non-metaphorical
[15:45]	Squirrel Wood:	Humm... the friends list in the comm window still has these three checkboxes below the list of names... how about getting rid of that and let people check the optiond right in the name list ?
[15:45]	McCabe Maxsted:	take care benjamin!
[15:45]	Kitto Flora:	Hope it comes soon, very useful for new users that IM me and I have to go visit. Takes em a long time to figure out how to offer me a TP
[15:45]	Squirrel Wood:	The icons are there...
[15:45]	Benjamin Linden:	that's changing to the design you described Squirrel
[15:45]	Squirrel Wood:	^^
[15:45]	Benjamin Linden:	also in the next voice release
[15:45]	Benjamin Linden:	maybe we should hire you Squirrel :-)
[15:46]	McCabe Maxsted:	haha
[15:46]	Benjamin Linden:	ok guys, I have to run. take care. hope to see you Tuesday!
[15:46]	Squirrel Wood:	hehe
[15:46]	Squirrel Wood:	Have fun!
[15:46]	Squirrel Wood:	I'm only good for silly ideas :p
[15:46]	Kooky Jetaime:	buh-bye