User:Benjamin Linden/Office Hours/2008-04-03

Transcript of Benjamin Linden's office hours:

[15:00]	Jacek Antonelli:	Hi Arawn
[15:01]	Malbers Linden:	Hey Arawn
[15:01]	Arawn Spitteler:	Hi, Jacek, Malbers & GRatz
[15:01]	Gatz Morang:	hello, Arawn
[15:01]	Arawn Spitteler:	Did I just see one of thosestariways that can no longer be climbed?
[15:01]	Arawn Spitteler:	No, those aree supposed to be theones with big steps, like at Brideys.
[15:02]	Jacek Antonelli:	hehe
[15:02]	Arawn Spitteler:	I'm too laggy to climb a twistedcylinder anyway
[15:02]	Jacek Antonelli:	Hi Benjamin
[15:02]	Gatz Morang:	greetings, Benjamin
[15:02]	Arawn Spitteler:	Did someone just blow in?
[15:03]	Benjamin Linden:	hi folks
[15:03]	Arawn Spitteler wonders at who might have stabbedhim iin the back with a bazzooka
[15:03]	Benjamin Linden:	hey jacek
[15:03]	Arawn Spitteler:	Dazzle's available?
[15:04]	Benjamin Linden:	where is everybody?
[15:05]	Benjamin Linden:	Jacek, did you see that yourlogin screen patches are getting applied?
[15:05]	Jacek Antonelli:	I did :D
[15:05]	Jacek Antonelli:	\o/
[15:05]	Benjamin Linden:	thanks for your help with that!
[15:05]	Benjamin Linden:	I have to find some more projectsfor you to dig into :-)
[15:05]	Jacek Antonelli:	hehe sounds fun :D
[15:06]	Arawn Spitteler:	Is Malbers sitting on the sameseat I am?
[15:06]	Benjamin Linden:	no he's just hovering behindyou :-)
[15:06]	Malbers Linden:	nope, I'm bobbing behind you
[15:07]	Arawn Spitteler:	Wow, my cam seems to wave 5metersbehind
[15:07]	Benjamin Linden:	hi Arawn and Gatz
[15:07]	Gatz Morang:	hello
[15:07]	Benjamin Linden:	you guys are newcomers to myoffice hours right?
[15:07]	Gatz Morang:	I am new, yes...
[15:07]	Arawn Spitteler:	Yeah, thought I'd drop in.
[15:07]	Malbers Linden:	Hi Kooky
[15:07]	Benjamin Linden:	did you have specific topicsyou'd like to cover?
[15:08]	Kooky Jetaime:	Anyone know if the load test isover, cuz I still can't pull up profiles.
[15:08]	Arawn Spitteler:	I was just reading how Windlightisn't running on older-systems, as I Jiraed previously
[15:08]	Gatz Morang:	not really...I am usually not able toattend office hours and was curious
[15:08]	Arawn Spitteler:	It's blogged over
[15:08]	Benjamin Linden:	which load test?
[15:08]	Kooky Jetaime:	Check the blog Ben
[15:08]	Malbers Linden:	there was a load test around 1:30 LST
[15:08]	Kooky Jetaime:	and complain that you guys needbetter internal coms
[15:09]	Jacek Antonelli:	hah
[15:09]	Gatz Morang:	collision distances seem to havechanged with the update...my elevator stopped working until I gave itmore room
[15:09]	Kooky Jetaime:	since this intentionally breaks theclient
[15:09]	Benjamin Linden:	lol
[15:09]	Kooky Jetaime:	requiring either debug menu use, Orrestarting.
[15:09]	Arawn Spitteler:	It's been over for almost anhour, but they might have forgotten to plug the mocem back in
[15:10]	Benjamin Linden:	hmm, I'm not sure about thestatus of that
[15:10]	Arawn Spitteler:	You: No date of birthor payment information... No Groups or description...
[15:10]	Benjamin Linden:	are you having problems withthose features?
[15:11]	Benjamin Linden:	oh yeah, I see it too
[15:12]	Benjamin Linden:	I'll ping some folks internallyto see what I can find out
[15:12]	Kooky Jetaime:	They intentionally turned it off
[15:12]	Kooky Jetaime:	now
[15:12]	Kooky Jetaime:	uhm
[15:12]	Kooky Jetaime:	yea
[15:12]	Arawn Spitteler:	I was just able to change groups,but see none listed in my own profile
[15:12]	Benjamin Linden:	Arawn, are you having troubleusing windlight?
[15:12]	Kooky Jetaime:	of course I love how now "WE" haveto relog to fix problems that LL has started.
[15:12]	Arawn Spitteler:	After turning off all features,it's still too dark at sunrise
[15:12]	Kooky Jetaime:	Arawn - I think thats by design
[15:12]	Kooky Jetaime:	Night is supposed to be dark.
[15:13]	Kooky Jetaime:	(Thats hwat I was told)
[15:13]	Arawn Spitteler:	Sunrise used to be brighter
[15:13]	Benjamin Linden:	I'm sure now that windlight isinto release they'll be tweaking settings based on feedback
[15:13]	Kooky Jetaime:	Personally I hate theoversaturation of textures perpendicular to the sun
[15:13]	Benjamin Linden:	somebody from the ops group saidthings should be re-enabled in an hour or so
[15:13]	Kooky Jetaime:	er parallel
[15:14]	Benjamin Linden:	my pet peeve is with how flatplants and trees look now
[15:14]	Kooky Jetaime:	Ben- then that doesn't sound asthough testing is done
[15:14]	Arawn Spitteler:	Testing is done, buit they allscrewed up on their way to celebrate
[15:14]	Benjamin Linden:	heh
[15:15]	Kooky Jetaime:	I mean I appreciate measures tohelp under strain loads to keep the majority of things running
[15:15]	Arawn Spitteler:	It's kind of easy to overlookstuff, when speaking.
[15:15]	Jacek Antonelli:	Did I take a wrong turn andaccidently wander into the "Rag on LL Office Hours"? :D
[15:15]	Kooky Jetaime:	but the key is to not breakfunctionality to do it, outside of turning things off
[15:15]	Benjamin Linden:	haha Jacek
[15:15]	Arawn Spitteler:	Actually, someone organized agroup for that, in the last week, when the weekend was extended. Wouldyou like the t-shirt?
[15:16]	Kooky Jetaime:	well
[15:16]	Benjamin Linden:	so last week we started a veryinteresting discussion about how you find interesting things to do in SL
[15:16]	Arawn Spitteler forgets if he actually receivedthe T-Shirt
[15:16]	Jacek Antonelli:	yep
[15:17]	Benjamin Linden:	I'd like to take that up again,particularly since we have some new folks here
[15:17]	Kooky Jetaime:	I am a .. hm... complainer, I'lladmit, but as of late I think we have a reason to complain. The sheernumber of "Stop transacting, all is borked (again)" messaes over thepast couple of weeks is crazy.
[15:17]	Jacek Antonelli:	We were talking about socialcontacts, Twitter, and so forth
[15:17]	Benjamin Linden:	I tried out metahud, it's prettycool
[15:17]	Kooky Jetaime:	/. was talking abotu Twitter
[15:17]	Arawn Spitteler:	Twitter?
[15:17]	Kooky Jetaime:	thinking it might just become aninternet "sideline" thing
[15:18]	Benjamin Linden:	what do you mean kooky?
[15:18]	Kooky Jetaime:	http://tech.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/04/02/1529253
[15:18]	Kooky Jetaime:	Title: Will Twitter Join Podcastingon the 'Net Sidelines'?
[15:18]	Benjamin Linden:	ah
[15:18]	Benjamin Linden:	yes, I think that's a possibility
[15:19]	Benjamin Linden:	the things that twitter enableswill always be important to people
[15:19]	Jacek Antonelli:	hi Harleen :)
[15:19]	Benjamin Linden:	but it's pretty high overhead
[15:19]	Benjamin Linden:	I imagine in the future you'llopt-in to be tracked by your friends automatically
[15:19]	Malbers Linden:	right, twitter could get replaced by someother microblog type thing
[15:20]	Benjamin Linden:	there are those phone apps thatwill map out friends close to you,
[15:20]	Benjamin Linden:	etc.
[15:20]	Kooky Jetaime:	Hmmm... The complete death ofpersonal privacy.
[15:20]	Benjamin Linden:	right
[15:20]	Benjamin Linden:	I read an article about thatrecently
[15:20]	Benjamin Linden:	well a few actually
[15:20]	Jacek Antonelli:	Heh, so dramatic, Kooky ;)
[15:20]	Benjamin Linden:	kids growing up now have a verydifferent idea about privacy
[15:20]	Kooky Jetaime:	Well, lack of drama gets relegatedto page 6
[15:20]	Benjamin Linden:	after putting everything onfacebook and myspace
[15:21]	Kooky Jetaime:	drama gets page 1
[15:21]	Jacek Antonelli:	Maybe if there was a robot thatfollowed people around and twittered every little thing they did, itwould be an invasion of privacy
[15:21]	Benjamin Linden:	so getting back to this "what dopeople do in SL?"
[15:21]	Jacek Antonelli:	Yes, the topic at hand, hehe
[15:21]	Benjamin Linden:	quickly, I'd like to know howlong each of you have been in SL
[15:21]	Benjamin Linden:	roughly
[15:21]	Kooky Jetaime:	1.5 yr
[15:21]	Jacek Antonelli:	About 2 years
[15:22]	Arawn Spitteler:	Just started my second year
[15:22]	Benjamin Linden:	do you have a few establishedplaces you hang out or do you often seek out new places?
[15:22]	Kooky Jetaime:	Established.
[15:23]	Jacek Antonelli:	I have a few established places.Occasionally I'll visit a new one, and sometimes I start to come backto it until it becomes another "established place"
[15:23]	Arawn Spitteler:	Mostly at Mystic Academy
[15:23]	Benjamin Linden:	what sort of places, Kooky andJacek, if you don't mind sharing
[15:23]	Kooky Jetaime:	Just my home most of the time
[15:23]	Kooky Jetaime:	and Hard Alley
[15:24]	Jacek Antonelli:	Yes, the majority at my home.Also visiting friends' homes. Certain stores that I like.
[15:24]	Benjamin Linden:	are you socializing with peoplethere or doing individual activies, like building and scripting?
[15:24]	Kooky Jetaime:	Usually just leaching off resourcesdoing nothing constructive
[15:24]	Jacek Antonelli:	Sometimes socializing, othertimes individual
[15:24]	Arawn Spitteler:	Sounds like my creative content
[15:25]	Jacek Antonelli:	At home, I'm usually doingindividual stuff -- up in my sky platform so I'm not disturbed
[15:25]	Jacek Antonelli:	When visiting friends, I'm ofcourse socializing with them
[15:25]	Kooky Jetaime:	I socialize at home and out
[15:26]	Benjamin Linden:	so you're not often at placeswhere lots of people gather, perhaps meeting new people?
[15:26]	Kooky Jetaime:	I keep starting to build things andlose interest fast so
[15:26]	Jacek Antonelli:	Me personally, no. I don't hangout much in "group spaces" -- clubs and so forth. I used to, though
[15:26]	Arawn Spitteler has fixed the Fast Hobo Train tobe rideable, by others on the Rail road, but H4 has it borked
[15:27]	Benjamin Linden:	hi Nick
[15:27]	Kooky Jetaime:	I usually can't stay in groupplaces long
[15:27]	Nick Bonde:	hi
[15:27]	Kooky Jetaime:	get to irritated with idjuts
[15:27]	Benjamin Linden:	why's that Kooky?
[15:27]	Jacek Antonelli:	I used to hang out at The Shelterquite regularly, when I was newer
[15:27]	Jacek Antonelli:	But lately my SL usage hasshifted away from social, and more towards professional. Hmm, I guessthat's the reason for more individual time.
[15:28]	Jacek Antonelli feels like she's lying on apsychologist's couch, hehehe
[15:28]	Arawn Spitteler would like to forgo thedownloading of a lot of textures: Mystic Academy has frequentdiscussions, but I don't know how to make a cyberdance entertainning.
[15:28]	Kooky Jetaime:	the people who wear enough bling tomake my monitor look like a light bulb, the ones who can't keep theirfingers off their gestures, and people who feel that its their rightto wear attachments playing music that can be heard across an entiresim.
[15:28]	Arawn Spitteler:	I've a Teeter Totter as part ofmy better sex project
[15:28]	Kooky Jetaime:	Oh, heres a UI issue
[15:28]	Kooky Jetaime:	Half the time when I install thenew SL versions, its wiping my saved password.
[15:29]	Benjamin Linden:	yes I noticed that Kooky
[15:29]	Kooky Jetaime:	started with RC3 I believe.
[15:29]	Benjamin Linden:	actually this recent update wipedALL my settings
[15:29]	Kooky Jetaime:	Yep
[15:29]	Benjamin Linden:	window size, pop-ups, etc
[15:29]	Kooky Jetaime:	RC1 did that to me
[15:29]	Benjamin Linden:	I've registered my displeasurealready :-)
[15:29]	Kooky Jetaime:	even though I had a settings filein place waiting for it
[15:29]	Arawn Spitteler:	I was surprised that RC4 didn'ttry to restore Imposters
[15:29]	Kooky Jetaime:	Ben... from a UI standpoint, anyguesses as when some time might be invested in the installer?
[15:30]	Benjamin Linden:	that just came up last weekactually
[15:30]	Benjamin Linden:	and it was felt compared to otherthings it wasn't very important
[15:31]	Benjamin Linden:	so back to hanging out in-world
[15:31]	Jacek Antonelli nods. Installers aren't an every-
	day usage thing
[15:31]	Kooky Jetaime:	If I had a L$ for every timesomeone said "XX is unimportant"...
[15:31]	Benjamin Linden:	let's say hypothetically you feltlike socializing with a group of people
[15:31]	Benjamin Linden:	how would you go about findingsaid people?
[15:31]	Kooky Jetaime:	It might not be an every day item,but it is the FIRST item that a new person sees... before even gettingto the client.
[15:31]	Kooky Jetaime:	And starting off by doing thingswithout asking is a fast way to start creating hard feelings.
[15:32]	Benjamin Linden:	I agree it's important kooky
[15:32]	Benjamin Linden:	the out of box experience matters
[15:32]	Roof Doors:	Malbers Linden is at the door.
[15:32]	Benjamin Linden:	but relative to other things,like the fact that new users can't figure out what there is to do in SL
[15:32]	Malbers Linden:	I've been spending some time on Help Islandrecently and a lot of new residents explicitly ask me what they shoulddo now. What suggestion would you make to them?
[15:32]	Benjamin Linden:	it's less problematic
[15:33]	Arawn Spitteler:	Linden Office Hours have becomemost of my social life.
[15:33]	Kooky Jetaime:	Agreed
[15:33]	Benjamin Linden:	oh great, so we're yourentertainment :-)
[15:33]	Malbers Linden:	I usually suggest that these new residentsuse the Search feature -- but that is only half-an-answer.
[15:33]	Malbers Linden:	It's jsut a tool to find an answer; not ananswer in itself
[15:34]	Kooky Jetaime:	Malbers - When someone firstinstalls a web browser for the first time, and they ask you "what do Ido now" What would you say?
[15:34]	Jacek Antonelli:	Malbers: probably the best thingfor a new user is to find something they enjoy, than they can do inSL. But that's hard unless they already know the options
[15:34]	Jacek Antonelli:	*that they can do
[15:34]	Kooky Jetaime:	SL is a tool, not a solution in andof itself.
[15:34]	Malbers Linden:	Kooky, I think that is why mst browsers havea special "Welcome to VX of Firefox" style page.
[15:34]	Jacek Antonelli:	Some people come into SL withspecific ideas -- they want to go dancing, or meet people, orshopping, or build something
[15:34]	Benjamin Linden:	plus the web has yahoo
[15:35]	Jacek Antonelli:	But other people are like,"Hmm... what is there to do around here?"
[15:35]	Benjamin Linden:	and facebook
[15:35]	Malbers Linden:	Right, so the Web has built up tools, whatkinds of tools do we need?
[15:35]	Kooky Jetaime:	Well, the thing is thats the key..We're giving people the tool, and then saying go use it.
[15:35]	Kooky Jetaime:	but they don't know what they cando with the tool
[15:35]	Benjamin Linden:	right
[15:35]	Arawn Spitteler:	What would they like to do? SL isa reflective reality, and they've run into the same problem meat-side.
[15:35]	Benjamin Linden:	how can we tell them -- here'swhat's in the world for you to do
[15:36]	Benjamin Linden:	how would *you* tell them?
[15:36]	Kooky Jetaime:	Then look at it from the meat side.This person has just moved "in to town", and is looking to a neighbor(say you Malbers) of "whats to do in this town?"
[15:36]	Arawn Spitteler:	They're on different wavelengths,so the only answer is to understand.
[15:36]	Kooky Jetaime:	you either need to take them toshow them or give them a basic street map.
[15:37]	Malbers Linden:	That's actually part of my answer -- I thinkwe need a SL tourist office
[15:37]	Kooky Jetaime:	Maybe we need something like the"Popular Places" but a little more.... vetted
[15:37]	Arawn Spitteler:	You know, Vetted means inspectedby the Vet
[15:37]	Jacek Antonelli:	(Woof, client locked up hard.)
[15:37]	Kooky Jetaime:	and there goes ben
[15:38]	Kooky Jetaime:	well
[15:38]	Malbers Linden:	arg.
[15:38]	Kooky Jetaime:	its amazing how the word has beenamended
[15:38]	Kooky Jetaime:	I'm just getting tired of the 5 minlockout messages.
[15:38]	Benjamin Linden:	sorry folks I crashed
[15:38]	Benjamin Linden:	yes!!
[15:38]	Jacek Antonelli:	indeed
[15:38]	Benjamin Linden:	I've been fighting that battlefor months
[15:38]	Kooky Jetaime:	The thing is
[15:38]	Samuel Bishop:	Hey Ben, I had a question regardingthe New Havok if you didn't mind...Has it been launched on allmaingrid regions yet?
[15:38]	Kooky Jetaime:	half the time the 5 min message isa lie
[15:38]	Benjamin Linden:	apparently there are situationswhere it's necessary
[15:38]	Malbers Linden blames the Windows client
[15:38]	Jacek Antonelli:	It would sure be nice if it could"resume" our session without having to log in again
[15:38]	Kooky Jetaime:	and you can get in before its up
[15:38]	Benjamin Linden:	yes, Kooky
[15:39]	Jacek Antonelli:	That is, when it's logging outthe old session
[15:39]	Benjamin Linden:	that's another common ask
[15:39]	Kooky Jetaime:	Talk about lack of truth inadvertising
[15:39]	Malbers Linden:	HI Samuel
[15:39]	Samuel Bishop:	Hi :)
[15:39]	Michael Timeless:	Try clearing cache, it lets melog right back in
[15:39]	Jacek Antonelli:	Better to overestimate than under
[15:39]	Malbers Linden:	Yes, I think the Havok 4 engine is on theentire grid now.
[15:39]	Kooky Jetaime:	It is Malbers
[15:39]	Kooky Jetaime:	but I'm wondering who's gonna getconfused having client 1.19 and server 1.20
[15:39]	Malbers Linden:	there have been a few mentions of whacybehavior based on it, do you have another?
[15:39]	Samuel Bishop:	Alright, which linden would I askif it making my llApplyImpulses act up?
[15:40]	Kooky Jetaime:	or is the new major going to be forthe client 1.21, to re-sync them, or is syncronicity not important
[15:40]	Jacek Antonelli:	Samuel: Probably Sidewinder Linden
[15:40]	Arawn Spitteler:	Andrew or Sidewinder. Jira and goto content to Hover by 5PM
[15:40]	Kooky Jetaime:	Sam, the place to ask would be in acouple hours
[15:40]	Benjamin Linden:	yes, please ask Sidewinder
[15:40]	Samuel Bishop:	Alright, thanks
[15:40]	Arawn Spitteler will try to be there.
[15:41]	Benjamin Linden:	sorry I crashed right when Mikemade a comment about having an SL tourist office
[15:41]	Jacek Antonelli:	Returning to the "what to donow?" that new users have
[15:41]	Jacek Antonelli:	Yes, that's a good idea
[15:41]	Arawn Spitteler:	Does the RC4 take snapshots?
[15:41]	Michael Timeless:	RC4 is gone
[15:41]	Benjamin Linden:	which I think is interesting,because most people know what the 3-4 highlight attractions are in thetown where they live
[15:41]	Benjamin Linden:	I'd be curious to know
[15:41]	Benjamin Linden:	if SL was NYC
[15:41]	Malbers Linden:	I keep thinking about the exact situationthat Kooky mentioned -- moved to/visiting a new town
[15:41]	Jacek Antonelli:	There are several newbie-friendlyorganizations that have notecards of "things to do/places to visit"
[15:42]	Jacek Antonelli:	The Shelter and NCI come to mind
[15:42]	Michael Timeless:	NCI and TUi being two
[15:42]	Arawn Spitteler:	Send them all to NCI?
[15:42]	Benjamin Linden:	what would be SL's Statue ofLiberty, Empire State Building, Central Park, etc.
[15:42]	Michael Timeless:	Black Swan
[15:42]	Jacek Antonelli:	Greenies :D
[15:42]	Benjamin Linden:	what is Black Swan?
[15:42]	Benjamin Linden:	and NCI
[15:42]	Michael Timeless:	IT is a sim of sculptures,amazing graphics
[15:42]	Jacek Antonelli:	The Rezzable sims -- lovely sims,those
[15:43]	Michael Timeless:	Are you asking what NCI is?
[15:43]	Jacek Antonelli:	Both Greenies and Black Swan aredone by Rezzable
[15:43]	Benjamin Linden:	New Citizens?
[15:43]	Jacek Antonelli:	NCI is "New Citizens Inc.". Theydo classes and Q&A sessions for newbies
[15:43]	Jacek Antonelli:	yes
[15:43]	Michael Timeless:	yes
[15:43]	Jacek Antonelli:	And also other events, andresources
[15:43]	Benjamin Linden:	do you think NCI is a good newbieexperience?
[15:43]	Michael Timeless:	Absolutely
[15:43]	Jacek Antonelli:	yes
[15:43]	Benjamin Linden:	or do you just send newbies therebecause that's what it's for?
[15:43]	Benjamin Linden:	so better than OI and/or helpisland?
[15:43]	Jacek Antonelli:	Way better, hehe
[15:44]	Michael Timeless:	No, I found it is a very goodplace to meet people and learn
[15:44]	Michael Timeless:	they are very proactive inhelping people get their feet wet
[15:44]	Benjamin Linden:	so there are people there to helpnewbies?
[15:44]	Michael Timeless:	yes 24/7
[15:44]	Jacek Antonelli:	Yep. People around, and they haveannouncements for classes about a wide variety of topics
[15:44]	Benjamin Linden:	what do you think would happen ifwe started sending all new users to NCI?
[15:44]	Michael Timeless:	They would like it if they gotfunding help
[15:45]	Michael Timeless:	like many of the educators usedto get
[15:45]	Jacek Antonelli:	_All_ new users? Eep. NCI wouldbe overloaded if they didn't get help
[15:45]	Malbers Linden:	Does their approach scale?
[15:45]	Michael Timeless:	There is another issue with that
[15:45]	Michael Timeless:	They are for the most partfocused on SL reg time. A lot of new users are online after 9 SLT
[15:46]	Arawn Spitteler:	What pays for the NCI Acreage?
[15:46]	Jacek Antonelli:	Hrmmm. I'm not sure it wouldscale a whole lot. It's mostly volunteer based, people who areenthusiastic about helping new users.
[15:46]	Michael Timeless:	Many of the NCI people are fromthe old Caledon estates
[15:46]	Jacek Antonelli:	Arawn: advertising revenue.People pay to have ads shown at NCI. Good way to get eyeballs
[15:46]	Michael Timeless:	they've worked their way to getwhere they are
[15:46]	Michael Timeless:	The SL business forum is part ofthat as well
[15:47]	Benjamin Linden:	it's interesting thinking aboutthis idea of tourist attractions, because those don't really convincepeople to move somewhere permanently, do they?
[15:47]	Benjamin Linden:	going back to this comparison ofSL and NYC
[15:47]	Jacek Antonelli:	I think it's more like "where'sthe movie theater"? And "where's the book store"?
[15:47]	Benjamin Linden:	I bet 99% of people who visit NYCrarely go back
[15:47]	Jacek Antonelli:	Rather than "where's the EmpireState Building?"
[15:47]	Benjamin Linden:	makes our retention numbers lookpretty good :-)
[15:47]	Jacek Antonelli:	hehehe
[15:48]	Benjamin Linden:	yes Jacek, I think it's moreabout aligning people to interesting activities
[15:48]	Michael Timeless:	The thing that seems to attractthe most people is having a live person to talk to
[15:48]	Michael Timeless:	Are you familiar with SkybeamEstates?
[15:48]	Jacek Antonelli:	Tourist things are places youvisit once or twice. The important thing for new users is to findplaces that they can visit regularly
[15:48]	Jacek Antonelli:	And activities they enjoy
[15:48]	Benjamin Linden:	no, what is skybeam estates,Michael?
[15:49]	Michael Timeless:	IT is a small estate (13 sims)where they have a sandbox, and a lot of people willing to helpnewbies, they have a rental place to get their feet wet and then theycan buy land
[15:49]	Michael Timeless:	very helpful people
[15:49]	Benjamin Linden:	so similar to NCI
[15:49]	Benjamin Linden:	?
[15:49]	Michael Timeless:	yes
[15:49]	Benjamin Linden:	ok
[15:49]	Michael Timeless:	The owner advertises there
[15:50]	Benjamin Linden:	it would be interesting to thinkabout an affiliation or network of these kinds of places
[15:50]	Benjamin Linden:	that could load share new users
[15:50]	Jacek Antonelli:	yes
[15:50]	Jacek Antonelli:	That would be a viable approach
[15:50]	Benjamin Linden:	this question of stickyactivities is interesting though
[15:50]	Michael Timeless:	You would want to run this pastCarl Metropolitan
[15:50]	Benjamin Linden:	because I think a lot of thepeople who come to linden office hours
[15:50]	Michael Timeless:	and the SL business forun
[15:50]	Benjamin Linden:	are builders and business owners
[15:50]	Jacek Antonelli:	yes, that's probably right Benjamin
[15:50]	Benjamin Linden:	but what about consumers
[15:50]	Michael Timeless:	Carl is affiliated with NCI andruns the business forum
[15:51]	Benjamin Linden:	what would they enjoy doing in SL?
[15:51]	Benjamin Linden:	I know about abbotts and thesailing places, etc, but are those things actually "fun"?
[15:51]	Jacek Antonelli:	game shows are popular :DPrimtionary (like Pictionary, but with prims)... Second Fortune (wordgame like wheel of fortune)
[15:51]	Benjamin Linden:	interesting Jacek, games...
[15:52]	Charlie Feld:	Beautiful house!
[15:52]	Arawn Spitteler likes the Choo-Choo: Calleta is animportant info hub
[15:52]	Jacek Antonelli:	also, there are a lot of costumecontests at clubs
[15:52]	Michael Timeless:	Trivia contests as well
[15:52]	Jacek Antonelli:	So I assume that they must befairly popular, if they continue to have so many
[15:52]	Jacek Antonelli:	*nod* trivia is popular
[15:52]	Arawn Spitteler:	Things that pay money are alwayspopular
[15:52]	Michael Timeless:	There is a risk with that
[15:52]	Benjamin Linden:	haha yes
[15:53]	Benjamin Linden:	sounds suspiciously like gambling
[15:53]	Jacek Antonelli:	Ah, but they don't have to pay toplay, so it's all good ;)
[15:53]	Michael Timeless:	The element of sin is always fun
[15:53]	Benjamin Linden:	I see
[15:53]	Jacek Antonelli:	Yeah, money events are popular.The game shows, the "best in Color X" contests, and so on
[15:54]	Benjamin Linden:	let's say I wanted to find a gameto play, how would I do that?
[15:54]	Michael Timeless:	Try a few clubs
[15:54]	Michael Timeless:	Utopia lovers etc
[15:54]	Benjamin Linden:	that's an interesting answer tonew users, Michael
[15:54]	Jacek Antonelli:	Hmmm... I suppose you couldtheoretically try Search. But I'm not sure that's something people dooften in practice
[15:55]	Malbers Linden:	how would a 2-hour old resident find a game?
[15:55]	Jacek Antonelli:	I guess Event listings in searchare good
[15:55]	Benjamin Linden:	or a club for that matter
[15:55]	Benjamin Linden:	do you use event listings, Jacek?
[15:55]	Michael Timeless:	Even if a 2 hour resident couldfind them, would they know how to use them?
[15:55]	Michael Timeless:	there is an education curve thatmust be followed
[15:55]	Benjamin Linden:	what does that curve involve,Michael?
[15:55]	Malbers Linden:	we are here to modify that curve
[15:55]	Benjamin Linden:	lol @ Malbers
[15:56]	Jacek Antonelli:	I used to use event listings,back when I had time to go to events, lol. Personally I'd browse theeducational events, but there are lots of other things. Live music isanother popular thing
[15:56]	Michael Timeless:	Basically learning what theirenvironment around them does. Sitting, standing, walking and someetiqutte just to interact with their environment
[15:56]	Jacek Antonelli:	and DJs
[15:56]	Michael Timeless:	Simply using a HUD is aneducation process
[15:56]	Malbers Linden:	Live music is an interesting aspect -- Ithink a lot of people just want ot be entertained at first
[15:56]	Jacek Antonelli:	Exactly, Malbers
[15:57]	Malbers Linden:	once they get comfortable, then the yinteract
[15:57]	Michael Timeless:	true
[15:57]	Michael Timeless:	The problem is getting them overthe noob stigma to interact
[15:57]	Malbers Linden:	what are other "entertain me" style activities?
[15:58]	Michael Timeless:	without being victimized in theprocess
[15:58]	Jacek Antonelli:	Yes, one of the bad things aboutthe official OI is... how very little relevancy it has to the thingsthat most people want to do most often
[15:58]	Jacek Antonelli:	If I were picking 3 things thatthe average user would find useful... hmm *thinks
[15:58]	Jacek Antonelli:	new user, that is
[15:58]	Jacek Antonelli:	1. How to find events and clubsin Search
[15:59]	Michael Timeless:	A notebook that tells they howto use the UI, How to use search and how to use the map features
[15:59]	Michael Timeless:	Along with a faq of the 20 topproblems they will face
[15:59]	Jacek Antonelli:	2. How to manage money and buythings, and put them on
[15:59]	Michael Timeless:	part of the faq Jacek
[15:59]	Jacek Antonelli:	More than just a FAQ -- somethinginteractive
[15:59]	Michael Timeless:	true
[15:59]	Jacek Antonelli:	"practice shopping"
[15:59]	Malbers Linden:	Again, in my time on Help Island, a lot offolks complain about how hard it is to walk and fly. I do not thinkthey even know that they can control their camera.
[16:00]	Jacek Antonelli:	Oh, along with that -- how tofind freebies
[16:00]	Benjamin Linden:	we do have an interactive FAQ --the knowledge base
[16:00]	Jacek Antonelli:	Freebies are very important tonew users
[16:00]	Michael Timeless:	Too hard for noobs to use
[16:00]	Michael Timeless:	It reads like a tech journal
[16:00]	Michael Timeless:	most ignore it
[16:00]	Malbers Linden:	Freebies are pretty motivational
[16:00]	Benjamin Linden:	that's good feedback, Michael
[16:00]	Jacek Antonelli:	Nah, that's not interactive,Benjamin -- that's just a web page with a search. It needs to besomething that they touch and play with in-world
[16:00]	Benjamin Linden:	ah, I see what you mean Jacek
[16:01]	Jacek Antonelli:	So have a wall of freebies thatthey can practice buying
[16:01]	Jacek Antonelli:	And a game where they have toattach something to different parts of their avatar
[16:01]	Michael Timeless:	I hate to harp but help islandneeds to have classrooms and hall monitors
[16:01]	Arawn Spitteler:	Gumby can walk into any book, andSL is that kind of environment. OI is a primer, and literacy canexpand from there.
[16:01]	Malbers Linden:	different than the Freebie Store?
[16:01]	Arawn Spitteler:	I remember finding TeleportaionTrail useful
[16:01]	Michael Timeless:	People learn in three differentstyles
[16:02]	Jacek Antonelli:	Malbers: more of a "lesson". Inthis case, the important thing wouldn't be that they get freebies, butthat they learn how to buy and get things
[16:02]	Michael Timeless:	<--spent time teaching in BD/EDenvironment
[16:02]	Arawn Spitteler:	BD/ED?
[16:02]	Michael Timeless:	Behavior disturbed/emotionallydisturbed
[16:02]	Jacek Antonelli:	I know from hearsay that thecurrent OI has a "quest" thingy with some torch or whatnot, thateverybody hates
[16:03]	Michael Timeless:	typical high school students
[16:03]	Michael Timeless:	lol
[16:03]	Jacek Antonelli:	And you have to do certain tasksto get off OI
[16:03]	Jacek Antonelli:	(I haven't seen it myself, wentthrough OI too long ago, lol)
[16:03]	Benjamin Linden:	yes, that's true Jacek
[16:03]	Benjamin Linden:	it's over-complicated
[16:03]	Arawn Spitteler wants to go back to see that dragon
[16:03]	Jacek Antonelli:	So, I'm not sure if my idea ofhaving tasks is actually good or not, if there's already somethingsimilar that's failing
[16:04]	Benjamin Linden:	I believe we lose a lot of peoplebecause they can't figure out how to leave OI
[16:04]	Jacek Antonelli:	Yeah, the thing about _forcing_them to stay is...
[16:04]	Michael Timeless:	I agree with that assessment
[16:04]	Jacek Antonelli:	The reason they signed up for SLis _not_ to spend hours at OI!
[16:04]	Benjamin Linden:	haha right
[16:04]	Jacek Antonelli:	They signed up to go to clubs andstuff, and you're standing in their way
[16:04]	Arawn Spitteler:	Once off OI, return is prohibited
[16:04]	Benjamin Linden:	well I think a lot of peopledon't know *what* they signed up for
[16:04]	Michael Timeless:	You could have remedial OI
[16:05]	Benjamin Linden:	we have some projects in theworks to streamline that process
[16:05]	Michael Timeless:	once they learn what they don'tknow they could return
[16:05]	Jacek Antonelli:	Yes, that's horrible. I wassomewhat traumatized as a newbie, to find out that I couldn't go backto Help Island and talk with those nice mentors anymore ;_;
[16:05]	Arawn Spitteler:	OIP isn't the same primer theystarted with, is one thing I'd change.
[16:05]	Benjamin Linden:	ok folks I have to run to anothermeeting
[16:05]	Benjamin Linden:	this is all good info
[16:06]	Jacek Antonelli:	Okay, take care Ben and Malbers
[16:06]	Michael Timeless:	Take care Benjamin/Malbers
[16:06]	Malbers Linden:	Thanks for the ideas.
[16:06]	Benjamin Linden:	malbers, can you send me thetranscript. I lost half when I crashed
[16:06]	Malbers Linden:	ah, sure
[16:06]	Benjamin Linden:	thanks
[16:06]	Benjamin Linden:	ok see you all next week!
[16:06]	Jacek Antonelli:	Bye!
[16:06]	Michael Timeless:	bye all