User:Benjamin Linden/Office Hours/2008-04-10

Transcript of Benjamin Linden's office hours:

[15:06]	McCabe Maxsted:	ahoy
[15:06]	Arawn Spitteler:	That big blog, has sent Overflow looking for OH, and some just want more.
[15:06]	Kooky Jetaime:	bring back the bloody friends combo box!
[15:06]	Malbers Linden:	Harleen, always great to have you here.
[15:06]	Kooky Jetaime:	:)
[15:06]	marineforces123 Korobase:	Hiya Ben
[15:06]	Jacek Antonelli:	Instead of having Whine-fest 2008
[15:06]	McCabe Maxsted:	wow it's packed
[15:06]	Harleen Gretzky:	Howdy McCabe
[15:06]	Jacek Antonelli:	Hey Ben
[15:06]	Benjamin Linden:	hi everyone!
[15:07]	Talisien Llewellyn:	Hi Ben
[15:07]	Elle Pollack:	And so the man of honor arrives...
[15:07]	McCabe Maxsted:	hey there harleen :)
[15:07]	Yukiko Omegamu:	ohaiyo ben
[15:07]	Jacek Antonelli:	Loads of adoring fans here to congratulate you on the 1.20 RC ;)
[15:07]	Benjamin Linden:	glad to see the great turnout
[15:07]	Harleen Gretzky:	Hi Benjamin
[15:07]	Benjamin Linden:	haha somehow I think you might be slightly sarcastic Jacek :-)
[15:07]	Geneko Nemeth:	Dazzle just crashed.
[15:07]	Jacek Antonelli:	:D
[15:07]	McCabe Maxsted:	did you get my email ben?
[15:07]	McCabe Maxsted:	the one I sent today?
[15:07]	Squirrel Wood:	Hellu Benjamin
[15:07]	Kooky Jetaime:	the 1.19 hour is still packed Too
[15:07]	Benjamin Linden:	I saw an email come in from you McCabe but I haven't had a chance to read it yet
[15:08]	Benjamin Linden:	I've been in meetings all day today
[15:08]	Arawn Spitteler tried most of that meeting in Windlight Dazzle, after the first Crash, but it didn't perform as well as advertised.
[15:08]	Kooky Jetaime sits on the roof
[15:08]	marineforces123 Korobase:	lol
[15:08]	Jacek Antonelli:	Lots of people are frustrated, by lots of things
[15:08]	Kooky Jetaime:	Jacek - understatement
[15:08]	McCabe Maxsted:	ah was linking you to my port of the classic skin
[15:08]	Jacek Antonelli:	hehe
[15:08]	Benjamin Linden:	yes, I've been reviewing the blog comments and the feedback on sldev
[15:08]	Arawn Spitteler:	Windlaugh seems a mistake.
[15:09]	Kooky Jetaime:	I'm still beyond frustrated with the excuse that was given for why so many working patches from Nicholaz are not being used
[15:09]	Benjamin Linden:	I'm really glad to see so many people care enough to show up today
[15:09]	marineforces123 Korobase:	do we IM or?
[15:09]	Geneko Nemeth:	It worked fine when it was back in its First Look days! Windlight I mean.
[15:09]	Benjamin Linden:	let's try to structure the conversation somewhat
[15:09]	marineforces123 Korobase:	ok
[15:09]	Benjamin Linden:	roughly I believe the feedback falls into a few categories
[15:09]	Elle Pollack:	Kooky, Benjimin's the UI guy, he's not likely to know anything about that
[15:09]	Benjamin Linden:	issues with Windlight
[15:09]	Kooky Jetaime:	Elle - I know,
[15:09]	Benjamin Linden:	issues with Dazzle
[15:09]	Kooky Jetaime:	I was commenting on Jaceks comment about user frustrations
[15:09]	Benjamin Linden:	other UI/feature changes in 1.20
[15:09]	marineforces123 Korobase:	ok
[15:09]	McCabe Maxsted:	https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Skinning_How_To/Revert_1.20_to_a_Classic_look for anyone who wants to have a look
[15:10]	Talisien Llewellyn:	thank you McCabe
[15:10]	Media Hax:	ok..in that order Ben?
[15:10]	Benjamin Linden:	and then perhaps some general concerns about LL not listening to customer feedback
[15:10]	Jacek Antonelli:	indeed
[15:10]	Benjamin Linden:	yes, let's go in that order
[15:10]	Benjamin Linden:	windlight's been out a few weeks now but it sounds like there are still lots of concerns about it
[15:11]	Benjamin Linden:	I'll preface by saying I'm not the most knowledgeable person to address issues related to windlight but I'm happy to take those back to the windlight team
[15:11]	Saijanai Kuhn:	Windlight meeting is still going
[15:12]	Argent Stonecutter:	My concern with Windlight is that there seem to be a number of secondary user interface changes as a result of the way Windlight water works.
[15:12]	Jacek Antonelli:	Yes, perhaps we can focus on Dazzle/UI issues more for this hour
[15:12]	Argent Stonecutter:	Like the property lines issue.
[15:12]	Jacek Antonelli:	True, Argent
[15:12]	Benjamin Linden:	in order to structure this somewhat, are the specific concerns related to windlight that appeared in 1.20?
[15:12]	Arawn Spitteler had to TP elsewhere to crash: One Dazzle diff, in 1.20, is that the avatar turns, after I stop turning, or the camera does, and it gives me motion sickness.
[15:12]	Argent Stonecutter:	Not that I'm aware of.
[15:13]	Elle Pollack:	I haven't seen or heard of any
[15:13]	Elle Pollack:	And I've been using WL since the First Look
[15:13]	Jacek Antonelli:	I've been having some new crashes with 1.20 when my graphics settings are turned up. But I haven't got a solid repro yet on exactly what's doing it
[15:13]	Benjamin Linden:	ok let's not spend too much time discussing windlight then
[15:13]	Argent Stonecutter:	Roger
[15:13]	Benjamin Linden:	I believe the team is aware of most of the high-level concerns with windlight
[15:13]	Kooky Jetaime:	Argent - yea, I hate that issue..
[15:13]	McCabe Maxsted:	jacek: are they involving slurls at all? I'ive been having issues myself with crashing and clicking them
[15:13]	Benjamin Linden:	feel free to message me directly with specific issues
[15:14]	Arawn Spitteler:	Adding Windlight to Dazzle seems a concern, since my system isn't Windlight ready. Dazzle could use Windlight as an option, if that's a functionality.
[15:14]	Geneko Nemeth:	WindLight was always an option.
[15:14]	Jacek Antonelli:	(McCabe: Nope, mine's just a straight-out crash whenever I log in with settings turned up, or turn them up while logged in)
[15:14]	Benjamin Linden:	Arawn, do you mean you'd like to use dazzle without windlight?
[15:14]	Yukiko Omegamu:	for property lines ive got a fix for that
[15:14]	Kooky Jetaime:	Actually, I was wondering, why does Dazzle get a major version increase? (19 to 20, ignoring the leading 1.)
[15:14]	Argent Stonecutter:	Put them back into the world rendering pipeline.
[15:14]	Arawn Spitteler:	Dazzle without Windlight had a couple known issues. Wintlight has too many to sort
[15:15]	Elle Pollack:	Kooky, LL's changing the numbering system again
[15:15]	Benjamin Linden:	Kooky, it was decided that we should increment to a number that would be easier for residents to refer to
[15:15]	Alyx Stoklitsky:	I am a little late to the meeting, so this may have been asked already, but why on earth has the dropdown that allows you to see where your friends are been removed from the map window in SL?
[15:15]	Argent Stonecutter:	I was told 1.20 was done because it included the Havok 4 support so it's synced with the server version
[15:15]	Benjamin Linden:	and given what a dramatic change it is, we figured people would want to refer to it a lot :-)
[15:15]	Jacek Antonelli:	Hehe we're getting to that Alyx :) You're not alone there
[15:15]	Benjamin Linden:	also, from now on, we won't use the third set of numbers
[15:15]	Aimee Trescothick:	far from alone
[15:16]	Benjamin Linden:	so we'll increment to 1.21 for example
[15:16]	Media Hax:	o wow Ben, new build height implemented in it?
[15:16]	Alyx Stoklitsky:	Having no quick way to find my friends is a real annoyance :\
[15:16]	Benjamin Linden:	yes, that's in 1.20
[15:16]	Argent Stonecutter:	THe new build hight isn't quite complete.
[15:16]	Benjamin Linden:	let's save the non-dazzle issues to the end
[15:16]	Saijanai Kuhn:	what of beta level test builds?
[15:16]	Kooky Jetaime:	Argent - except that 1.21 of the server is beign pushed
[15:16]	Benjamin Linden:	to keep things a bit more structured
[15:16]	Benjamin Linden:	ok shall I outline the high-level concerns about the new UI appearance, as I see them?
[15:16]	Argent Stonecutter:	nod
[15:17]	Saijanai Kuhn:	/nod
[15:17]	Benjamin Linden:	the main concern appears to be that the overall brightness of the color scheme clashes with the in-world experience, particularly at nighttime
[15:17]	Kooky Jetaime:	Benjamin - I thought that the x.#.x.x, when # increased, it indicated a forced upgrade due to substatial changes on the server side that would make the clients no longer compatable.
[15:17]	Alyx Stoklitsky:	severely at night time.
[15:17]	Talisien Llewellyn:	yes
[15:17]	Aimee Trescothick:	definitely
[15:17]	Benjamin Linden:	Kooky, I don't think that's a strict heuristic
[15:18]	Kooky Jetaime:	Benjamin - I thought that was the original plan though when Het Grid was introduced
[15:18]	Argent Stonecutter:	That's the biggest one. There are other issues.
[15:18]	Kooky Jetaime:	or the Day de Liberation
[15:18]	Saijanai Kuhn nods at Kooy
[15:18]	Argent Stonecutter:	But that's the biggy.
[15:18]	Benjamin Linden:	actually, I'd say there's a bigger meta-concern, which is that we shouldn't ship dazzle without giving people a choice
[15:18]	Jacek Antonelli:	Yes
[15:18]	Argent Stonecutter:	*right*
[15:18]	Aimee Trescothick:	yes
[15:18]	McCabe Maxsted nods
[15:18]	Benjamin Linden:	ok
[15:18]	Aimee Trescothick:	that's the solution
[15:18]	Kooky Jetaime:	right Ben.
[15:18]	Elle Pollack:	The main issue for me is contrast/readability. The bright blue + blue text in floaters, not so good
[15:18]	Benjamin Linden:	also, I understand there are some legibility and contrast issues
[15:18]	Aimee Trescothick:	make the "classic" UI default
[15:18]	Kooky Jetaime:	a Choice.. a true first in SL clients.
[15:18]	Media Hax:	prepacked skins
[15:18]	Argent Stonecutter:	Include at least broad themes and Harold's retro theme.
[15:18]	Gellan Glenelg:	if people have already started to provide ways to re-skin, then there's definitely demand for choice
[15:18]	Elle Pollack:	I think sofar as the new scheme will be the default, that should be addressed directly
[15:18]	Benjamin Linden:	Elle, that is the issue I'm most concerned with
[15:19]	Elle Pollack:	Although I've allready done a lot with colors.xml
[15:19]	Benjamin Linden:	and the one we want to address in the RC cycle
[15:19]	Aimee Trescothick:	forcing a new skin now when a multitude of configurable skins are right round the corner makes no sense
[15:19]	Benjamin Linden:	can you be a bit more specific when you say blue-on-blue, which pieces of the UI you're referring to?
[15:19]	Saijanai Kuhn:	can we get a commit to at least have prepackaeged themes even if there are no slider conrols?
[15:19]	Yukiko Omegamu:	their refering to the chat windows and profiles
[15:19]	Elle Pollack:	Inventory, build window...IM window to a degree although that's white on bright blue...
[15:20]	Aimee Trescothick:	Dazzle should be about the under the surface changes, not the colour scheme
[15:20]	Elle Pollack:	Buttons I don't have as much trouble with
[15:20]	Argent Stonecutter:	Nod.
[15:20]	Mm Alder:	I liked the suggestion on SLDev: make the default look like it does now
[15:20]	Kooky Jetaime:	brb, gotta check on the status of my home sim
[15:20]	Benjamin Linden:	let's save the "forced upgrade" and "choice of skins" discussion for the next topic
[15:20]	Aimee Trescothick:	inventory build windows etc. going from memory
[15:20]	Argent Stonecutter:	OK, but a choice of skins would make the color scheme issue moot. ^^
[15:20]	Benjamin Linden:	at the moment I'd like to focus on specific areas where text legibility is a problem
[15:20]	Elle Pollack:	Build window was the worst I think
[15:20]	Benjamin Linden:	which part of the build window, Elle?
[15:21]	Aimee Trescothick:	anyone have a link to a 1.20 screenshot so we can discuss?
[15:21]	Kevin Susenko:	I only find the interface hard to read when it's transparent, it seems to be too transparent.
[15:21]	Elle Pollack:	The options pannels...the text tables are small and neumerous and the thing is crowded to begin with to compound it
[15:21]	Kooky Jetaime:	ben, heres a UI Bug. The Crosshair on the map, can you make it a different shade? If the map doesn't load the graphics, its grey, and the cursor dissapears because they are all the same color.
[15:21]	Argent Stonecutter:	I think part of the legibility issue is also the new icons.
[15:21]	Benjamin Linden:	there's a screenshot on the wiki, I'll grab it
[15:22]	Aimee Trescothick:	the icons are not iconic
[15:22]	Benjamin Linden:	which crosshair Kooky
[15:22]	Kooky Jetaime:	Ctrl-M
[15:22]	Kooky Jetaime:	then move your mouse over the map
[15:22]	Geneko Nemeth:	Maybe LL could start using color cursors. The current ones doesn'
[15:22]	Kooky Jetaime:	that one
[15:22]	Benjamin Linden:	Argent, Aimee, can you please explain your comments on the icons some more
[15:22]	Jacek Antonelli:	In past weeks, we had touched on the issue of the icons being the same color as the background -- e.g. along the bottom bar, and the shapes in the build/create floater
[15:22]	Argent Stonecutter:	Encapsulating icons makes them harder to distinguish at a glance.
[15:22]	Benjamin Linden:	did the crosshair color change in dazzle, Kooky?
[15:22]	Elle Pollack:	I kinda like most of the new icons myself
[15:23]	Kevin Susenko:	The crosshair issue's been there for a while.
[15:23]	Argent Stonecutter:	Also, the "no fly" and "no push" icons are very similar, so it's hard to distinguish them on the menu bar.
[15:23]	Alyx Stoklitsky:	the mouse cursor.
[15:23]	Kooky Jetaime:	Ben, I dunno.. but its an issue from .18, .19, etc
[15:23]	Benjamin Linden:	Argent, I'm not sure what you mean about encapsulating
[15:23]	Aimee Trescothick:	show someone that has never been in SL before the fly or map icons from the button bar for example and see if they can work out what they're about
[15:23]	Argent Stonecutter:	The capsules around the icons on the map.
[15:23]	Kevin Susenko:	Basically the grey that the images on the map display when they're not loaded is the same color as the crosshair you get when you mouse over the map.
[15:23]	Gellan Glenelg:	icons should be simple, immediately identifyable... the new ones are too detailed IMO - I look at them and think "ewhat the heck is that meant to respresent" :(
[15:23]	Argent Stonecutter:	The curcular balls they're on.
[15:23]	Aimee Trescothick:	the no script build etc. icons are way less clear than the old ones
[15:23]	Benjamin Linden:	so Aimee you don't feel the icons are easily decipherable
[15:24]	Kooky Jetaime:	but I have to argue, I hate the loss of the Friends combobox from the map.
[15:24]	Elle Pollack:	I do think the old no script icon was more clear
[15:24]	Benjamin Linden:	Gellan, which icons are hard to figure out?
[15:24]	Aimee Trescothick:	and use the ISO prohibition symbol in a way the ISO guidelines for its use specifically warn against
[15:24]	Aimee Trescothick:	(it's also upside down)
[15:24]	McCabe Maxsted:	I agree. The new no script icon is confusing
[15:24]	Benjamin Linden:	Aimee, can you point me to those guidelines?
[15:24]	Gellan Glenelg:	taking one example... no push: a hand with a line through it was easy
[15:25]	Gellan Glenelg:	now it's an arrow and a man and a little ircle
[15:25]	Alyx Stoklitsky:	Kooky: The loss of the friends combobox is an absolute nightmare for me. I use it multiple times an hour over 10+ friends
[15:25]	Aimee Trescothick:	unfortunately I can't, I think they're a paid for standard that we used in my old job and I have no access to any more
[15:25]	Jacek Antonelli:	Let's focus on one topic at a time please
[15:25]	Benjamin Linden:	ok we're getting off-track,
[15:25]	Argent Stonecutter:	Icons should be visually distinctive, not similar. There's a tendency to want to make them similar to build a theme, and this needs to be resisted.
[15:25]	Benjamin Linden:	can we get back to text legibility
[15:25]	Alyx Stoklitsky:	And yes, the new icons are less obvious than the original
[15:25]	Gellan Glenelg:	I can work it out,... but it's TINY on my screen.. I need to look closely at it to see all the parts
[15:25]	Aimee Trescothick:	actually to be fair it's widely abused, apple etc use it for delete
[15:25]	Alyx Stoklitsky:	Text legibility is no problem atall for me.
[15:26]	Benjamin Linden:	for folks that have problems with text contrast and legibility, I'd like to understand where specifically the issues are
[15:26]	Gellan Glenelg:	that man is about 3mm tall for me
[15:26]	Jacek Antonelli:	I don't have problems with legibility per se -- I can read it. But I can feel my eyes straining
[15:26]	Benjamin Linden:	someone mentioned the build tools, but I'm not sure where
[15:26]	Elle Pollack:	For what it's worth, my perspective is from someone who spends most of the day working in SL, usualy with the build window
[15:26]	Elle Pollack:	Ben, you missed my reply then
[15:26]	Mm Alder:	Gellan: I thought that meant no sitting
[15:26]	Elle Pollack:	Sec
[15:27]	Benjamin Linden:	sorry Elle, lots of chat :-)
[15:27]	Argent Stonecutter:	Yah, it's not that it's illegible, it's that it hurts.
[15:27]	Aimee Trescothick:	just looking for the screeshot
[15:27]	Gellan Glenelg:	lol
[15:27]	Elle Pollack:	] You: The options pannels...the text tables are small and neumerous and the thing is crowded to begin with to compound it
[15:27]	Benjamin Linden:	Torley posted a screenshot here
[15:27]	Benjamin Linden:	https://wiki.secondlife.com/w/images/thumb/d/d4/Dazzlelicious.jpg/300px-Dazzlelicious.jpg
[15:27]	Aimee Trescothick:	thanks
[15:27]	McCabe Maxsted:	the skin is pretty, but after a while of using it the high brightness and lack of contrast strain the eyes
[15:27]	Benjamin Linden:	ok yes, I agree there are layout problems with the build tools, but that is not a dazzle-specific issue
[15:27]	Argent Stonecutter:	The shiny text cpsules for the tabs are a particular problem for me in the preferences window.
[15:28]	Benjamin Linden:	ah, that's what you meant by capsules, Argent?
[15:28]	Argent Stonecutter:	They should be darkr and probably not shiny at all.
[15:28]	Elle Pollack:	Ben, I'm just saying that the existing layout of the build pannel compounds the issue for me
[15:28]	Argent Stonecutter:	That's one kind of capsules.
[15:28]	Jacek Antonelli:	I think Dazzle compounds the complicated build window, because it requires a lot of eye-strain to read them already
[15:28]	Elle Pollack:	Jinx, Jacek
[15:28]	Argent Stonecutter:	The other is the balls on the map icons.
[15:28]	Jacek Antonelli:	hehe
[15:28]	Aimee Trescothick:	hmm, that shots too small to see...
[15:29]	Geneko Nemeth:	The map icons aren't hard to see because they
[15:29]	Geneko Nemeth:	're small, it's because they doesn't have a clear outline anymore...
[15:29]	Elle Pollack:	What I did, personaly, to fix it, was revert a lot of the floater windows to white text on dark background
[15:29]	Benjamin Linden:	ok I'm not hearing a lot of concrete examples of text legibility
[15:29]	Argent Stonecutter:	The horizontal "gloss" lines on all the buttons and tabs make the white text harder to make out.
[15:29]	Argent Stonecutter:	That one's pretty concrete.
[15:29]	Jansen Miles:	My pet peeve with the Dazzle screenshots were the new low-contrast icons, so I'm delighted to arrive here and everyone's discussing icon legibility! I'm for high contrast. The current build primitive icons are quite good.
[15:29]	Benjamin Linden:	besides this specific tab feedback, which is good, Argent
[15:29]	Benjamin Linden:	I think we can decrease the shininess on the tabs
[15:30]	Benjamin Linden:	in fact I think at one point they were a bit flatter
[15:30]	Argent Stonecutter:	And buttons.
[15:30]	Alyx Stoklitsky:	How about no shinyness atall? So that it looks like windows 95? :P
[15:30]	Aimee Trescothick:	let me relog in 1.20 a moment then I can talk about it properly rather than just what I remember ...
[15:30]	Yukiko Omegamu:	the text issue is dependent on your type of moniter some dont got issues some do
[15:30]	DeweyBlank Laks:	where do i go to build stuff
[15:30]	Argent Stonecutter:	The shininess on the capsules themselves is really very 1998. It's like an old Enlightenment theme.
[15:30]	Elle Pollack:	Is this concrete enough? "Make the background hue more neutral, darken the text"
[15:31]	Argent Stonecutter:	Well, increase the contrast between th etext and background.
[15:31]	Qie Niangao:	so, as pretty as they are when selected, those buttons with with saturated cyan and white lettering--just not much achromatic contrast there
[15:31]	Elle Pollack:	It's hard to explain well when the issue's subjective to the viewer
[15:31]	Benjamin Linden:	that's what I want to understand: where are the contrast issues?
[15:31]	IntLibber Brautigan:	how about rather that wasting time on UI aesthetics, you focus on fixing real bugs that seriously impede user experience, such as the bug where someone can spam someone with an object named Linden across the grid, and they are unable to mute the object by muting the owner????? Coco Lindens been dragging butt and making excuses and not fixing this even tho its been a JIRA article for a while.
[15:31]	Argent Stonecutter:	Any place where there is white text on light blue.
[15:31]	Shiva Aabye:	/as far as I understood from the blog, sorry, just came in and missed a lot, in the near future, we are able to change the skin and the look of the viewer? wouldn't there be a lot of free skins out in the wild in the near future?
[15:32]	Argent Stonecutter:	That shoulod beblack text or it should be darker backgrouynd.
[15:32]	Couples MultiAnimator v2d whispers: * Abranimations Couples Animator Ready...
[15:32]	Yukiko Omegamu:	the contrast issue is with the moniter depending on how high the moniter brightness is effects the text
[15:32]	Geneko Nemeth:	I'm not sure which Linden you should speak to IntLibber, but I feel Benjamin isn't the right one for this...
[15:32]	Jacek Antonelli:	Example: the buttons on the bottom, when one is active (e.g. communicate, when it's open)
[15:32]	Benjamin Linden:	Shiva, we'll talk about that shortly
[15:32]	IntLibber Brautigan:	Ben's office hours topic in the wiki says "user experience"
[15:32]	Argent Stonecutter:	Oh yes, the overall brightness problem is a windlight issue too.
[15:32]	Jansen Miles:	The current viewer has white text on medium grey. Even THAT isn't enough contrast not to kill your eyes after a few hours.
[15:32]	Benjamin Linden:	to be clear, we are working on other bug fixes
[15:32]	Benjamin Linden:	in parallel with efforts like Dazzle
[15:32]	Alyx Stoklitsky:	Intlibber: Because getting new people in is more important than keeping the old people happy :P It's pretty sound business when you think about it.
[15:32]	Benjamin Linden:	they aren't mutually exclusive, and involve different teams of people
[15:33]	IntLibber Brautigan:	not when this "old person" pays 10k US a month to LL,
[15:33]	Gellan Glenelg:	the "white on blue" is confusing on buttons too. I keep wondering is the "Talk" button is on or off... because I'm used to "greyed out" meaning off/disabled... but here, white means ON
[15:33]	DR Dahlgren:	Please do not force Dazzle on us as it is. We really need options to go back to this UI before you do that
[15:33]	Saijanai Kuhn wants to promote an idea he raised on sldev: refactor the GUI completely. That would solve all GUI woes eventually
[15:33]	nik385 Doesburg:	I've noticed that the L$ color in the upper right corner of the screen is quite similar to the godbar color, making it a little difficult to see as well.
[15:33]	Jacek Antonelli:	Guys, let's focus
[15:33]	Shiva Aabye:	I just realized, when I clicked the slurl to this office hour, that it didn't raise in my open viewer, but opened a second viewer...is this by intention? (1.20 RC)
[15:33]	Benjamin Linden:	what do you mean by that Saijanai?
[15:33]	Argent Stonecutter:	Oh yes, there's not enough distinction for active buttons.
[15:33]	Geneko Nemeth:	Godbar?
[15:34]	Benjamin Linden:	do you mean you can't tell which buttons are the active buttons?
[15:34]	Argent Stonecutter:	Yes.
[15:34]	Gellan Glenelg:	yeah - I can't tell if my talk is enabled or disabled
[15:34]	Elle Pollack:	Argent, I don't agree with you
[15:34]	Saijanai Kuhn:	the GUI is so intertwined with the rest of the libraries of the sl viewer that you can't separate them out. Last I looked, you can't have a window with folders that aren't inventory holders, for example
[15:34]	Argent Stonecutter:	Mini map and fly are the ones I have trouble with.
[15:34]	Gellan Glenelg:	i *might* get used to it - but i naturally see "grey/washed out" as meaning off
[15:34]	Argent Stonecutter:	About what?
[15:35]	Saijanai Kuhn:	so plugins, major modifications to the interface, etc, are all being strnagled by the underlying way in which the GUI is written in gcode
[15:35]	Benjamin Linden:	ok I think it's clear from this conversation (and other feedback) that we will never find a UI appearance that works for everyone
[15:35]	Aimee Trescothick:	exactly Ben
[15:35]	Jacek Antonelli:	indeed
[15:35]	Elle Pollack:	About not being able to tell when buttons are active...again, it's subjective...
[15:36]	Benjamin Linden:	in principle, we agree that supporting UI customization is the right direction
[15:36]	Gellan Glenelg:	yes
[15:36]	Aimee Trescothick:	that's why it shouldn't be changed
[15:36]	Shiva Aabye:	aye!
[15:36]	DR Dahlgren:	Yes
[15:36]	Aimee Trescothick:	provide the tools
[15:36]	Argent Stonecutter:	Well, all I can say is *I* have trouble telling them apart.
[15:36]	Aimee Trescothick:	let the users do it
[15:36]	DR Dahlgren:	Or leave it alone
[15:36]	Media Hax:	Skin the SL client, let the user decide
[15:36]	Benjamin Linden:	but that functionality isn't quite ready, and it was felt internally that the new appearance was a significant improvement and hence worth pushing ahead of a true skinning capability
[15:36]	Argent Stonecutter:	Ah...
[15:36]	Kooky Jetaime:	Ben, I don't know if it is.. I havn't tried 1.20... I Don't want to.
[15:37]	Geneko Nemeth:	Just as long as the old one is still an option.
[15:37]	Elle Pollack:	Whomever has the really BRIGHT ligh they're wearing, could they maybe detach it?
[15:37]	Argent Stonecutter:	Well, I think there's a lot of doubt out here that the new appearance is an improvement.
[15:37]	Kooky Jetaime:	in fact I wanna ditch 1.19
[15:37]	Kooky Jetaime:	but
[15:37]	DR Dahlgren:	Felt by whom????? The blog entrys were very clearly negative
[15:37]	Saijanai Kuhn:	skinning should be a no brainer. It should be so eay for the interface team to skin that the only thing that needs testing is the user interface to skin customization. INstead, we have this hassle
[15:37]	Aimee Trescothick:	there's no point expending effort on this when once the tools are available there will be a 10-100 user skins available in a couple of weeks
[15:37]	Yukiko Omegamu:	im working on video tutorial for those that are wanting to customize the look
[15:37]	DR Dahlgren:	It totally ruins any night scene
[15:37]	Elle Pollack:	DR, they were split between like and dislike
[15:37]	Shiva Aabye:	I like the new look very much...but it's a question of taste maybe...and to let the users change it is the right way IMHO
[15:37]	Kooky Jetaime:	Ben - I'm gonna say this... Cut your losses on this, just get the full skinning ready.
[15:37]	Elle Pollack:	(Thank you, formerly lit person)
[15:37]	DR Dahlgren:	Not by my count, and I did count
[15:37]	Geneko Nemeth:	Heh.
[15:38]	Aimee Trescothick:	I know that's a shame when people have already worked on it a lot, but sometimes thats the way projects go
[15:38]	Argent Stonecutter:	The new look is literally painful to use, for me. It's not just dislike, it hurts.
[15:38]	Saijanai Kuhn:	and that is because theGUI code itself needs a major rewrite. THEN you can allow true customization by theuser and not worry about these issues at all
[15:38]	Jacek Antonelli:	I think it would be advisable to default to the old-style skin, e.g. like the one McCabe has provided, until true skinning can be worked out
[15:38]	DR Dahlgren:	If you force this UI, you will push 1000's to the non-LL viewers
[15:38]	Gellan Glenelg:	agreed, argent.. especially script windows being bright white - try staring at those for a few hours
[15:38]	Geneko Nemeth:	Or even to other online worlds.
[15:38]	Argent Stonecutter:	Without Harold's skin I wouldn't be able to test out the building stuff I need 1.20 for.
[15:38]	Elle Pollack:	I just want to know, what's the timeframe for having an ability to be able to easily switch skins in the client?
[15:39]	Aimee Trescothick:	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-5080?focusedCommentId=50037#action_50037 spells out the contrast problems precisely
[15:39]	Benjamin Linden:	DR, we are fine with Residents using non-Linden viewers
[15:39]	Media Hax:	I agree with Saijanai
[15:39]	IntLibber Brautigan:	Well I cant see how LL could make a worse UI than either AW or EU
[15:39]	Elle Pollack:	Cause I know you guys are working on it
[15:39]	Benjamin Linden:	that was one of the goals in open-sourcing the viewer
[15:39]	DR Dahlgren:	I simply won't subject my eyes to it, or lose the great night skys to it.
[15:39]	Benjamin Linden:	to increase innovation on the client
[15:40]	Aimee Trescothick:	trouble is that only works when the open source development is a two way street
[15:40]	DR Dahlgren:	Why is it, that LL gets an idea, and no matter the public opinion, it happens?
[15:40]	Geneko Nemeth:	It's kinda hard to innovate the client when you can't even build it though ^_^
[15:40]	Benjamin Linden:	well you've probably noticed that most of our blog comments trend negative :-)
[15:40]	Media Hax:	Cuase its a company DR
[15:40]	Argent Stonecutter:	OK, I can see this turning into an open source flame fest...
[15:40]	Geneko Nemeth:	/yea
[15:40]	Argent Stonecutter:	Let's stick to 1.20?
[15:40]	Aimee Trescothick:	you're not going to get OS developers taking on big projects without some certainty they'll get picked up and used
[15:40]	Aimee Trescothick:	yep, ok Argent :)
[15:40]	Benjamin Linden:	we simply can't use blog posts as the sole point of input when we make decisions
[15:41]	Argent Stonecutter:	No, there's Jira as well.
[15:41]	Free Radar HUD v1.1 by Crystal Gadgets
[15:41]	Yukiko Omegamu:	for those that are not aware its not in theory possable for switching skins as its cached so it has to be over come before that
[15:41]	IntLibber Brautigan:	yeah and LL ignores the most pressing JIRA proposals and focuses on meaningless aesthetic BS
[15:41]	Benjamin Linden:	yes, and we've been tracking the actionable jira issues to address the concerns that can be fixed in the RC timeframe
[15:41]	Elle Pollack:	Sorry, again, is there a time frame yet for the feature of being able to choose skins from the client?
[15:41]	Argent Stonecutter:	Having to restart to change skins is OK.
[15:41]	Mm Alder:	Ben: What sources of input did you use?
[15:41]	Benjamin Linden:	sorry Elle, I was going to answer that
[15:42]	DR Dahlgren:	I have been here going on 2 years, out of all the ppl I know, only 1 likes dazzle UI, and she is always at MidDay
[15:42]	Aimee Trescothick:	JIRA and sldev, I haven't been able to get here in person before, but the stuff on VWR-5080 has been there for weeks
[15:42]	Benjamin Linden:	there isn't a schedule for the skinning work
[15:42]	Geneko Nemeth:	While aesthetic isn't BS, it certainly isn't important than other stuff like statibility and functionality.
[15:42]	Benjamin Linden:	I was assured it would happen "soon" but I can't commit to specific dates
[15:42]	Geneko Nemeth:	But it's not meaningless either and that's why we're here.
[15:43]	Argent Stonecutter:	In fact it would be OK if you only had ONE choice, dazzle or retro, to start with.
[15:43]	Benjamin Linden:	please understand that we don't discount any of your feedback; it's extremely valuable to us and does inform our decision-making process
[15:43]	DR Dahlgren:	Well, I would HIGHLY suggest - that you don't make a major change like this in the UI, without a way to not use it.
[15:43]	nik385 Doesburg:	I'd go with the UI we had back in '05
[15:43]	Benjamin Linden:	so to address the point of being forced to use the new UI
[15:43]	Geneko Nemeth:	Heh.
[15:43]	Media Hax:	Just use 1.19 DR
[15:43]	Benjamin Linden:	1.20 is an optional update
[15:43]	Benjamin Linden:	you can continue using 1.19
[15:43]	Elle Pollack:	What about the next best thing, an easy instal methood for skins?
[15:43]	Benjamin Linden:	I understand there are features in 1.20 that some folks want to use now
[15:44]	Bu Brun:	okay C.U.
[15:44]	Aimee Trescothick:	ah yes, but there's lots of ... yeah
[15:44]	Elle Pollack:	I'm sure the OS people might help with that
[15:44]	Aimee Trescothick:	but will be patching in another skin for the moment
[15:44]	Benjamin Linden:	and unfortunately it simply isn't feasible for us to maintain a separate code branch so we can do dazzle and non-dazzle releases
[15:44]	Benjamin Linden:	so as a short-term workaround, before we have true skinning
[15:44]	Benjamin Linden:	we have provided documentation for the current ability to create custom skins
[15:44]	Talisien Llewellyn:	it is optional, for now, but Ben, what we are worried about is this being required on the main viewer without a way to change back
[15:44]	Benjamin Linden:	we recognize this isn't the most user-friendly solution
[15:45]	Elle Pollack:	Ben, yes, I've been using those to good effect
[15:45]	Aimee Trescothick:	but don't release 1.20 and force people to patch, put the classic skin in and save the colour candy for later
[15:45]	DR Dahlgren:	I understand I can use 1.19. I am not noob. But eventually stuff in RC becomes Main. That is the point I am concerned about
[15:45]	Benjamin Linden:	but in fact it is possible to completely customize the UI to the extent that we did with dazzle using these capabilities
[15:45]	Benjamin Linden:	in fact, the reason these skinning capabilities exist is largely because of dazzle
[15:45]	Benjamin Linden:	we're already seeing custom skins popping up
[15:45]	Argent Stonecutter:	We get that. But most people are just going to use what they have.
[15:45]	Benjamin Linden:	I encourage and support that innovation
[15:45]	Aimee Trescothick:	yes, that's fine for those of us that are tech savvy enough to use it
[15:46]	Argent Stonecutter:	For the 80% case, how about a 2-way switch?
[15:46]	nik385 Doesburg:	I'd like to see a skin like that from the original LW.
[15:46]	Elle Pollack:	I think what you guys should look for is some quick and dirty way to make changing skins easier
[15:46]	Gellan Glenelg:	I'm techie, but I don't like the idea of having to 100 lines of .xml every release
[15:46]	Benjamin Linden:	McCabe has already mostly built a "classic" skin
[15:46]	Aimee Trescothick:	and it's great that the changes are in there that make it possible, but the point is people shouldn't be forced into expending effort just to get it back to how it was, which worked and wasn't a health risk
[15:46]	Elle Pollack:	Whether it's releasing a template installer package for people to use or what
[15:46]	Kooky Jetaime:	Ben, I know I've beat this drum before, and its not really related to the client directly, but try and get a proper installer going. If people are going to be installing multiple versions of SL, we don't want our icons to be overwritten every time, which is what happens unless LL specificially calls the release something else (like First look, or RC, Beta, Etc)
[15:46]	Jacek Antonelli:	Could McCabe's classic skin be used as the default?
[15:47]	Aimee Trescothick:	so put McCabe's skin in as default
[15:47]	Elle Pollack:	Something that standardises it
[15:47]	nik385 Doesburg:	Ooh, Where does one get this 'classic' skin?
[15:47]	Argent Stonecutter:	And I don't think you're taking the physical pain problem seriously.
[15:47]	Benjamin Linden:	I agree Kooky, I hope we can address that eventually
[15:47]	Kooky Jetaime:	And you'll need it if you start distributing multiple skins, so we can install one/all of them.
[15:47]	Yukiko Omegamu:	@elle it isnt possable because the viewer skin is cached it would require a restart
[15:47]	Argent Stonecutter:	Yukiko: a restart is OK.
[15:47]	Benjamin Linden:	Argent, we haven't had folks at the office experiencing the pain you're describing
[15:47]	Kooky Jetaime:	Because once we find a skin we like, we'll not want to install every bloody skin every time we update.
[15:47]	Benjamin Linden:	I do take your concerns seriously
[15:47]	Geneko Nemeth:	But how about a restart + full cache clear?
[15:48]	Aimee Trescothick:	that's because they're sat in a 500-1000 lux office
[15:48]	Argent Stonecutter:	I'm 47, and I am working in a dim room with my monitor turned down low, because that's most comfortable for me.
[15:48]	Elle Pollack:	Argent, do you have a known vision disability, out of curiosity?
[15:48]	Aimee Trescothick:	your users are sat in homes, with light levels more like a 1/10th of that
[15:48]	Mm Alder:	Isn't *anyone* at Linden old enought to remember "new Coke"?
[15:48]	Jacek Antonelli:	lol
[15:49]	Argent Stonecutter:	My main vision problem is I'm short sighted but I have better han average acuity.
[15:49]	Benjamin Linden:	lol Mm, that was the best blog comment
[15:49]	Media Hax:	hehe.. i liked the old old coke better
[15:49]	Benjamin Linden:	I've had feedback from a vision impaired resident that dazzle is MUCH easier to read and MUCH easier on her eyes
[15:49]	Elle Pollack:	Argent, that mean you're oversensitive to light?
[15:49]	Kooky Jetaime:	Is someone alligating that Linden is gonna pull a New Coke trick on us?
[15:49]	Benjamin Linden:	there are similar comments in the blog and in Jira
[15:49]	Benjamin Linden:	shall we discount that feedback?
[15:49]	Argent Stonecutter:	It means I can see finer detail than most people.
[15:49]	Aimee Trescothick:	I don't want to get into tech credentials, but my previous job was partiallly designing monitors, I kinda know a little about this
[15:49]	IntLibber Brautigan:	yes Ben unless you happen to be color blind in the blue spectrum
[15:50]	Benjamin Linden:	Dazzle was tested for color-blind issues
[15:50]	Benjamin Linden:	it passes the three primary cases
[15:50]	Jacek Antonelli:	Ben: I don't think that feedback should be discounted, and I don't think that this... rather overwhelming feedback you're getting today should be discounted either
[15:50]	McCabe Maxsted:	but not all people are having an easier time with it, which is why even if it's kludge implementing some sort of skin switching system is essential in this release
[15:50]	Aimee Trescothick:	I what are the light levels in the rooms you are testing in?
[15:50]	Jacek Antonelli:	I'd press for a simple Dazzle/Classic switch to be top priority
[15:50]	Media Hax:	Sorry, what overwheming feedback?
[15:50]	Aimee Trescothick:	I=and
[15:50]	Benjamin Linden:	Jacek, skinning is a high-priority project
[15:50]	Benjamin Linden:	I just don't have set dates for when it will be delivered
[15:51]	Jacek Antonelli:	Not even true skinning -- a working solution
[15:51]	Elle Pollack:	She means bump it ahead in priority of the Dazzle release, I think
[15:51]	Argent Stonecutter:	That's why we're looking for an easy compromise that can be delivered quickly.
[15:51]	Benjamin Linden:	in the meantime, I encourage Residents to work on custom skins that will be ready to use when skinning becomes available
[15:51]	Benjamin Linden:	and which *can* be used in the meantime
[15:51]	Benjamin Linden:	with slightly more effort
[15:51]	Elle Pollack:	Even a hacky way
[15:51]	McCabe Maxsted:	that only really techies canmake, and other techies can install
[15:51]	Jansen Miles:	My top UI legibility issue is the dialogs going translucent when they're unfocused. I can't build and watch a conversation in IM. I can't even build and use the modeling tools (outside the build dialog) and watch the build dialog unless the background is sufficiently uncluttered! I'd like to be able to turn off alpha on dialogs entirely.
[15:51]	Argent Stonecutter:	If we could *redistribute* the SL client that would be OK.
[15:51]	Benjamin Linden:	when we previewed dazzle last fall a few enterprising residents created very simple skin installers
[15:52]	Benjamin Linden:	I expect we'll see similar innovation soon
[15:52]	Argent Stonecutter:	So ship one of them
[15:52]	Aimee Trescothick:	all we are looking for is changing the colour scheme to the classic look in the short term, until there is simple choice within the client
[15:52]	Elle Pollack:	Benjamin, could you provide links to those on the wiki?
[15:52]	Yukiko Omegamu:	yup -raises hand-
[15:52]	Yukiko Omegamu:	one of the people who did the installers was me
[15:52]	Talisien Llewellyn:	here's an idea Ben, take McCabe's skin, make an installer to overwrite the default files, and add it to the download page, simple fix, for now
[15:52]	Jacek Antonelli:	I agree, Ben -- but it shouldn't take extra effort to find and obtain a skin that doesn't cause physical pain
[15:52]	Media Hax:	ok... I swear he just said that you can skin the client right now..
[15:52]	Benjamin Linden:	yes, Elle, I'll be asking folks with custom skins to link to their projects
[15:53]	Elle Pollack:	The installers, I mean
[15:53]	Media Hax:	with a little effort
[15:53]	Argent Stonecutter:	OK, I think we're going nowhere with this, can we move on to "other issues with 1.20"?
[15:53]	Media Hax:	not sure what you guys want ?
[15:53]	Aimee Trescothick:	yeah, agreed Argent
[15:53]	Alyx Stoklitsky:	Yes
[15:53]	Jacek Antonelli:	The simplest solution I see is -- make the old skin the default. That will stop everyone complaining. Then add a simple switch to turn on Dazzle, so people who like it can use it
[15:53]	Argent Stonecutter:	Like the map friends.
[15:53]	Jacek Antonelli:	That buys plenty of time to implement true skinning
[15:53]	Alyx Stoklitsky:	FRIEND LOCATION COMBO BOX
[15:54]	Benjamin Linden:	Jacek, it will stop everyone complaining except all the people who like dazzle :-)
[15:54]	Media Hax:	I say, somebody make skins and sell them... Like clothes
[15:54]	McCabe Maxsted nods in agreement
[15:54]	Elle Pollack:	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-6243 <-- the relivant JIRA entry, lots of votes
[15:54]	Benjamin Linden:	including Linden Lab management
[15:54]	Jacek Antonelli:	See part 2 of my sentence ;)
[15:54]	Gellan Glenelg:	It's a mapping functions. it logically belongs on the map screen IMO
[15:54]	Geneko Nemeth doesn't have any friend and does not need the box :(
[15:54]	Media Hax:	Not sure why this is the issue to pound the table about
[15:54]	Benjamin Linden:	ah yes
[15:54]	Benjamin Linden:	:-)
[15:54]	Argent Stonecutter:	OK, simple switch, dazzle the default.
[15:54]	Jira URL-er v1.2: Invalid format
[15:54]	Benjamin Linden:	ok we're almost out of time, let's talk a little bit about these other issues
[15:55]	Talisien Llewellyn:	the thing is Jacek, they use the same files, so a "switch" would not be feasable at this time
[15:55]	Aimee Trescothick:	ah, so you're looking to keep management happy rather than users?
[15:55]	Benjamin Linden:	I wasn't aware of the change to remove the friends menu from map
[15:55]	Kooky Jetaime:	Which other ones?
[15:55]	Kooky Jetaime:	Ben
[15:55]	Kooky Jetaime:	put it back1
[15:55]	Geneko Nemeth:	Like, the joystick control!
[15:55]	Kooky Jetaime:	please please please
[15:55]	Media Hax:	LMAO
[15:55]	Benjamin Linden:	I'm going to reevaluate that with the team that made that decision
[15:55]	Argent Stonecutter:	Please put it back.
[15:55]	Kooky Jetaime:	put it back put it back
[15:55]	Kooky Jetaime:	That just went from a 1 button press to a 3 button
[15:55]	Elle Pollack:	Bridie Linden seemed to be knowledgeable on the subject on the blog
[15:55]	Argent Stonecutter:	Or put an extra column in contacts for it.
[15:55]	Qie Niangao:	Ben, we need to know how that team made that decision, too
[15:55]	Aimee Trescothick:	yes please
[15:56]	Benjamin Linden:	so I'm sure I understand the issue, was there a problem with the feature that might have resulted in its removal?
[15:56]	Kooky Jetaime:	Thats a 5 button press
[15:56]	Aimee Trescothick:	Agreed Qiw
[15:56]	Aimee Trescothick:	*Qie sorry
[15:56]	Argent Stonecutter:	Nobody I know of had any idea that there was a problem.
[15:56]	Jacek Antonelli:	The only thing I could think of, is that it might have been increasing load on the presence server
[15:56]	Qie Niangao:	that was DEV-4898, but DEV-4706 and DEV-3677 are equally odious
[15:56]	Elle Pollack:	Ben, Bridie's comment was this: "There was some confusion over how the feature worked, making it seem broken to some. The friends map dropdown only displayed online friends who allowed you to see them on the map — which was usually a very small subset of your entire friends list. Our Rx team recommended removing this feature from the map."
[15:56]	Jurin Juran:	its a feature that i use all the time tho
[15:57]	Aimee Trescothick:	it was causing support requests so rather than clarify it they removed it for everyone
[15:57]	Jacek Antonelli:	Wow, Elle
[15:57]	Elle Pollack:	(From the Blog, via the jira)
[15:57]	Benjamin Linden:	ok yes, I saw that comment
[15:57]	DR Dahlgren:	But never asked anyone who asked USES the client???
[15:57]	Benjamin Linden:	if that's the only issue I think we can probably come up with a better way to address it than remove the feature
[15:57]	Jacek Antonelli:	I hope so, hehe
[15:57]	Argent Stonecutter:	OK. Other issues... double-tap-run?
[15:57]	DR Dahlgren:	Maybe a good rule would be to require DEV to spend an hour a day in SL??
[15:57]	Qie Niangao:	see also http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-6232
[15:57]	Kooky Jetaime:	Double-tap-run?
[15:58]	Aimee Trescothick:	could you look into the process that lead to the decision though?
[15:58]	Argent Stonecutter:	I kind of like it,m but I would rather it be shift to run.
[15:58]	Jacek Antonelli:	Double-tap-run needs a toggle-switch in preference, at least
[15:58]	Benjamin Linden:	yes, Aimee, I'll get more context on that
[15:58]	Jansen Miles:	DR: lol
[15:58]	Argent Stonecutter:	Since shift-left and shift-right already have a meaning.
[15:58]	Geneko Nemeth:	Seconded.
[15:58]	Gellan Glenelg:	agreed jacek, tho i'd prefer shift-arrow or ctrl-arrow
[15:58]	Qie Niangao:	and http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-6278 -- (no single-click sit for seated avatars)
[15:58]	Argent Stonecutter:	It would be more consistent with he current interface and also avoid problems for in-world content.
[15:58]	Aimee Trescothick:	thanks
[15:59]	Kooky Jetaime:	omg
[15:59]	Kooky Jetaime:	where did people get some of the ideas for 1.20
[15:59]	Kooky Jetaime:	pull them out their butt?
[15:59]	Jacek Antonelli:	*sigh* Yes, there are quite a few UI changes that are rather "ill-advised"
[15:59]	Aimee Trescothick:	when I saw the the list of fixes on sldev, I thought someone was joking
[15:59]	Yukiko Omegamu:	@everyone i know the dazzle skin posses issues for some but not all but this is the start of making a better skinable viewer so lets try and understand this is working for the better good
[16:00]	Qie Niangao:	if this came from external open-source developers and they're just kinda "trial-balloons"... okay, they didn't float. but if it's a product of interal review processes, well, they're broken.
[16:00]	Benjamin Linden:	the double-click to run issue is something I need to look into more
[16:00]	Aimee Trescothick:	there's clearly work going on to reduce the learning curve for new users, which is good, but that shouldn't be at the expense of functionality for everyone else
[16:00]	Benjamin Linden:	I know there was a lot of internal and external support for it
[16:00]	Kooky Jetaime:	Ben -there are 112 votes requesting it to be reverted(aka removed)
[16:00]	Kooky Jetaime:	Thats a damn good vote turnout
[16:00]	Aimee Trescothick:	Qie: theopensourcers were the first to complain lol
[16:00]	Argent Stonecutter:	I think the functionality is good. I think the actual command is just not in sync.
[16:00]	Benjamin Linden:	but I do worry about the effect it will have on my omniphaze :-)
[16:00]	Kooky Jetaime:	especially for an issue out for 2 days
[16:00]	Geneko Nemeth:	The new joystick control expects I using a mouse-like controller, that reports relative motion, but I have something that's similar to most console controllers, which reports the analog stick position from [-1,1].
[16:01]	Aimee Trescothick:	Geneko, try the 3d mouse tick box?
[16:01]	Qie Niangao:	(Aimee, I saw Ordinal's sldev mail, too. :) )
[16:01]	Aimee Trescothick:	just a thought off the top of my head
[16:01]	Elle Pollack:	Oh, I have one bug you might actualy know about Benjimin and it's related to skinning: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-6261
[16:01]	Geneko Nemeth:	Okay, I don't understand why it's checked by default...
[16:01]	Benjamin Linden:	unfortunately we're out of time. I recommend that if there are issues with non-dazzle bugs in 1.20 that folks attend Bridie's RC office hours next week
[16:01]	Elle Pollack:	(This is also my way of plugging it for votes)
[16:02]	Benjamin Linden:	does anyone have the office hours schedule handy?
[16:02]	Aimee Trescothick:	3D cursor I mean
[16:02]	Yukiko Omegamu:	elle that is set in base_color.xml
[16:02]	Kooky Jetaime:	Yea Ben
[16:02]	Kooky Jetaime:	what you need?
[16:02]	Jacek Antonelli:	*pulls it up*
[16:02]	Kooky Jetaime:	Wednesday
[16:02]	Kooky Jetaime:	3pm
[16:02]	PersephoneGea Clary:	good afternoon or night, bye too, Mr Benjamin Miss Malbers bye ..tempos fugit
[16:02]	Elle Pollack:	Yukiko, you're not supposed to edit base_color.xml
[16:02]	Benjamin Linden:	I want people to know when to go to Bridie's office hours
[16:02]	Abranimations Dance Sphere v1.4 whispers: Abranimations Dance Sphere Ready ...
[16:02]	Geneko Nemeth:	Ben, do you have any more office times after this?
[16:02]	Kooky Jetaime:	in Levenhall
[16:02]	Gellan Glenelg:	Wednesday,1500,Bridie,http://slurl.com/secondlife/Levenhall/152/40/30
[16:02]	Talisien Llewellyn:	could i have the link to that schedule?
[16:02]	Benjamin Linden:	since it will be the best place to discuss non-dazzle RC bugs
[16:02]	Elle Pollack:	but colors.xml overrides it
[16:02]	PersephoneGea Clary:	bye residents and lool creatures ;)
[16:02]	Kooky Jetaime:	http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Office_Hours
[16:02]	Jacek Antonelli:	http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Office_Hours#Bridie_Linden
[16:02]	Talisien Llewellyn:	thank you
[16:03]	Benjamin Linden:	great, thanks for the links
[16:03]	Benjamin Linden:	I have office hours every thursday at 3pm
[16:03]	Benjamin Linden:	thanks for the great turn out today and for all the great feedback
[16:03]	Kooky Jetaime:	ben, go through and find out how some of these choices were made
[16:03]	Elle Pollack:	and the line that says it controls the color of the $L balance text changes the clock color instead
[16:03]	Benjamin Linden:	it really does mean a lot that you care enough to come and share your opinion
[16:03]	PersephoneGea Clary:	good night, buenas noches, bonnes nuit, bona noite bye
[16:03]	Kooky Jetaime:	and read the comments on the blog, because a lot of comments pertain to the removal of things
[16:03]	Cherry Kirktown:	where are the RC 20 command line options documentd?
[16:03]	Benjamin Linden:	and we do our best to factor your input into our design decisions
[16:03]	Aimee Trescothick:	thank you, it's because we care we get worked up about it :)
[16:03]	DR Dahlgren:	I sure hope more comes from this, than when I chat after a disconnet. I am afraid I won't hold my breath though
[16:04]	Malbers Linden:	thanks for all the passion. We do know how much you care.
[16:04]	Jacek Antonelli:	Take care, Ben and Malbers
[16:04]	Qie Niangao:	thanks, Ben, for hosting and listening
[16:04]	McCabe Maxsted:	take care you two
[16:04]	Argent Stonecutter bows
[16:04]	Malbers Linden:	Bye All.
[16:04]	Aimee Trescothick:	bye
[16:04]	Harleen Gretzky:	tc Ben and Malbers
[16:04]	Benjamin Linden:	see everyone next week I hope!
[16:04]	Talisien Llewellyn:	take care
[16:04]	DR Dahlgren:	You know we care, but does it really mean anything to you. I appreciate your time, I hope something positive comes from it
[16:04]	Bernadette Blackadder:	Bye bye :)