User:Benjamin Linden/Office Hours/2008-04-24

Transcript of Benjamin Linden's office hours:

[15:07]	Pier Jaecies:	Welcome everyone, and thank you for joining
[15:07]	Pier Jaecies:	we had a great discussion last week
[15:07]	Pier Jaecies:	gained a ton of informaiton
[15:07]	Pier Jaecies:	I'll start by giving an overview
[15:07]	Benjamin Linden:	Briefly, for those who missed last week, or didn't see the sldev announcement, we have Vectorform with us again today. They're helping us build a new feature for the Viewer and want to talk with you to get your input into the project.
[15:07]	Benjamin Linden:	I'll let Pier take it away. :-)
[15:07]	Pier Jaecies:	Thanks Ben
[15:08]	Pier Jaecies:	So the topic is Landmarks Updates
[15:08]	Pier Jaecies:	and the three areas of discussion are
[15:08]	Pier Jaecies:	Landmark Tagging
[15:08]	Pier Jaecies:	Navigation History
[15:08]	Pier Jaecies:	and User Picks
[15:08]	Pier Jaecies:	Landmarks Taggings:
[15:09]	Pier Jaecies:	We discussed weather Landmark Taggings are personal or pulbic
[15:09]	Pier Jaecies:	public
[15:09]	Pier Jaecies:	and determined that some of it is public and see that as primary information that will always follow the landmark
[15:09]	Pier Jaecies:	and the private information is info that we consider secondary
[15:10]	Pier Jaecies:	and will stay with the resident
[15:10]	Pier Jaecies:	the personal information we are discussing resident tagging and allowing for about 5 words that the resident can add to a landmark after saving it
[15:11]	Pier Jaecies:	or during the process
[15:11]	Pier Jaecies:	both
[15:11]	Pier Jaecies:	let me put it this way
[15:11]	SignpostMarv Martin:	5 words ?
[15:11]	Luisa Bourgoin:	I have heard some shoh-renting people would love to add their advert textures to LMs they hand out
[15:11]	Pier Jaecies:	these are the identified primary elements
[15:11]	Luisa Bourgoin:	^shop
[15:11]	SignpostMarv Martin:	"this place really sucks ass" ?
[15:11]	Pier Jaecies:	that you will be able to sort by
[15:11]	Pier Jaecies:	name
[15:11]	Pier Jaecies:	region
[15:11]	Pier Jaecies:	amount of traffic
[15:11]	Pier Jaecies:	area
[15:12]	Pier Jaecies:	coordinates
[15:12]	Pier Jaecies:	maturity rating
[15:12]	Pier Jaecies:	date the the resident created the landmark
[15:12]	Qie Niangao:	(traffic? somebody said traffic??)
[15:12]	Pier Jaecies:	and primary tags that are created by the creator of the landmarek
[15:13]	Pier Jaecies:	that is what is limited to 5 words
[15:13]	Pier Jaecies:	and 5 words, our thinking, is a way to control data storage
[15:13]	Pier Jaecies:	and being able to access the information,
[15:14]	SignpostMarv Martin:	you can't really say much about a place in 5 words
[15:14]	Arawn Spitteler wonders if five words mean as : Five Words seem too few.
[15:14]	Pier Jaecies:	without having to sort words such as "is" and "the" e.g. "where i found the best socks in second life"
[15:14]	SignpostMarv Martin:	"this place really sucks ass", "must come back here later", "need to buy this tomorrow"
[15:14]	Pier Jaecies:	rather "socks, feet, clothing, "
[15:15]	Pier Jaecies:	there is also secondary information
[15:15]	Pier Jaecies:	where the resident who is saving the landmark can personalize information
[15:15]	Pier Jaecies:	and also sort by
[15:15]	Pier Jaecies:	including
[15:15]	Pier Jaecies:	:
[15:15]	Pier Jaecies:	Personal Tags
[15:15]	Pier Jaecies:	unlimited
[15:16]	Pier Jaecies:	last eleported landmarks, each one having a history of the last time visited
[15:16]	Pier Jaecies:	most visited landmarks
[15:16]	Pier Jaecies:	and also to be able to add a photo of chioce to the landmark
[15:16]	Pier Jaecies:	all of this information came from discussions with residents
[15:17]	Pier Jaecies:	this is based on current research information
[15:17]	Pier Jaecies:	also we discussed
[15:17]	Pier Jaecies:	being able to manage landmarks
[15:17]	Pier Jaecies:	and one point that was brought up was how to delete duplicated
[15:17]	Pier Jaecies:	duplicates
[15:17]	Pier Jaecies:	which we will look at a creating a resolution for
[15:18]	Pier Jaecies:	we had tons of great ideas
[15:18]	Pier Jaecies:	some fell outside of the scope of this project but are retained and we hope to address in future projects
[15:18]	Pier Jaecies:	next,
[15:18]	Pier Jaecies:	we discussed Navigation History
[15:19]	Pier Jaecies:	and How to determine what gets added to location history
[15:19]	Pier Jaecies:	here are the ideas of what those elements would be
[15:19]	Pier Jaecies:	:
[15:19]	Pier Jaecies:	Based on the time spent in a Parcel which could be
[15:19]	Garn Conover:	oops
[15:19]	Pier Jaecies:	set by an incremental time
[15:19]	Garn Conover:	hitting spacenav w/ keyboard = bad idea
[15:20]	Pier Jaecies:	such as every two minutes
[15:20]	Pier Jaecies:	as a default
[15:20]	Pier Jaecies:	which the resident could set to thier preferred time or opt off altogether
[15:20]	Pier Jaecies:	also
[15:20]	Pier Jaecies:	by how long a resident stands in one location
[15:21]	Pier Jaecies:	also
[15:21]	Pier Jaecies:	Every teleport could go into history
[15:21]	Pier Jaecies:	every time a resident goes to a new region
[15:21]	Pier Jaecies:	also
[15:21]	Pier Jaecies:	we discussed
[15:22]	Pier Jaecies:	Navigation Triggers
[15:22]	Malbers Linden:	Just to point out that camping could skew the importance of a location
[15:22]	Pier Jaecies:	ok, thanks
[15:22]	SignpostMarv Martin:	I'm just curious, has the though of using the history/bookmarks features of Firefox rather than a bunch of custom code
[15:22]	Pier Jaecies:	so a trigger such as when a resident interacts with something or sits
[15:23]	Pier Jaecies:	and also a breadcrumb feature
[15:23]	Pier Jaecies:	where you could opt to set a temporary tag as you go along
[15:23]	Pier Jaecies:	so you could go back along your traveling trail
[15:23]	Pier Jaecies:	and then permentaly landmark later
[15:24]	Jonit Ivory:	if this were server side it would slow things down even more, all this info would be cached locally?
[15:24]	Pier Jaecies:	Kippie/Sarah would you like to address SignpostMarv's question
[15:24]	Pier Jaecies:	we will be looking at feasibility as we
[15:24]	Pier Jaecies:	go
[15:24]	Pier Jaecies:	currently we are discussing our options
[15:26]	Malbers Linden:	well, that was unpleasant.
[15:26]	SignpostMarv Martin:	heh
[15:26]	Garn Conover:	ouch my 1st RC3 crash
[15:27]	Malbers Linden:	oh, that wasn't the RC
[15:27]	Malbers Linden:	it was a region issue
[15:27]	SignpostMarv Martin:	hehehe
[15:27]	Garn Conover:	ahh
[15:27]	Jonit Ivory:	whoops
[15:27]	Garn Conover:	well the crash log failed
[15:27]	Kippie Friedkin:	whew
[15:27]	Garn Conover:	like it does 3/4 o the time
[15:27]	Malbers Linden:	although the RC did lock up my machine a few minutes before this meeting
[15:27]	Garn Conover:	RC# has been great for me
[15:27]	Garn Conover:	much better than 2
[15:27]	Benjamin Linden:	did a rolling restart just go through?
[15:28]	Malbers Linden:	yep
[15:28]	Garn Conover:	specially w/ my Retro
[15:28]	Kippie Friedkin:	so Signpost...what specific features from Firefox's bookmarking functionality are you referring to?
[15:28]	Jonit Ivory:	welcome to 1.21 :)
[15:28]	SignpostMarv Martin:	well Firefox has an sqlite-based system for history/bookmarks
[15:28]	Garn Conover:	About stil says 1.20
[15:28]	SignpostMarv Martin:	although they're being renamed "places" now :-P
[15:28]	Jonit Ivory:	oia
[15:29]	SignpostMarv Martin:	the basic gist is,
[15:29]	Garn Conover:	so we aren't 1.21
[15:29]	SignpostMarv Martin:	Firefox has features in for the systems you're wanting to develop,
[15:29]	Jonit Ivory:	nope I was hoping
[15:29]	SignpostMarv Martin:	and you're already using Firefox for part of the viewer,
[15:29]	SignpostMarv Martin:	so it would seem rather odd not to use the features in Firefox and instead re-invent the wheel
[15:30]	SignpostMarv Martin:	especially seeing as how there are already a plethora of firefox extensions that support remote-hosting & syncing of bookmarks
[15:30]	Garn Conover wonders what Malbers is
[15:30]	Jonit Ivory:	over there
[15:31]	Kippie Friedkin:	SignpostMarv...I'll have our technical leads start looking into that.
[15:31]	Kippie Friedkin:	It's a great suggestion.
[15:31]	SignpostMarv Martin:	if the native bookmark/history features were used, it'd pretty much be a case of create an extension for firefox that remotely synced with the LL servers, but it'd also give users the freedom to remotely sync with someone else's servers
[15:31]	SignpostMarv Martin:	i mean,
[15:31]	SignpostMarv Martin:	this 5-word limitation for landmarks being placed due to storage concerns
[15:31]	SignpostMarv Martin:	if Residents are using 3rd party services for remote syncing, who cares ?
[15:31]	Gonta Maltz:	easily extendable
[15:31]	Garn Conover:	so whats the topic atm?
[15:31]	SignpostMarv Martin:	^about storage limits
[15:31]	Kippie Friedkin:	well...actually, the 5-word limit is also a good way to prevent store owners from having millions of keywords related to their land
[15:32]	SignpostMarv Martin:	there's also the matter that remotely storing the history/landmarks is only useful if you use SL on multiple computers
[15:32]	Kippie Friedkin:	Gam...we're discussing the Landmarks and Navigation History enhancement project for the Viewer
[15:32]	SignpostMarv Martin:	if you only use SL on one computer,
[15:32]	Arawn Spitteler wonders if there's a char-length limit
[15:32]	Garn Conover:	ahh *nods*
[15:32]	SignpostMarv Martin:	then the native local SQLite database will probably be sufficient
[15:33]	SignpostMarv Martin:	although I would have to insist that if native history features be used to track locations, that secondlife://app/ urls be used, not slurl.com urls,
[15:33]	Pier Jaecies:	sorry for disappering
[15:33]	Pier Jaecies:	hope i didn't miss too much
[15:33]	SignpostMarv Martin:	as it'd probably bork things immensely if Residents opted to use a generic service such as del.icio.us to handle the remote hosting/syncing
[15:34]	Pier Jaecies:	if i can i'd like to finish up one last item before moving into open discussion
[15:34]	SignpostMarv Martin:	within the confines of SL and LL, slurl.com urls have special meaning,
[15:34]	SignpostMarv Martin:	but outside on the general web, slurl.com is just an ordinary domain name
[15:34]	Pier Jaecies:	the last item we had discussed last week and is a part of the origonal scope
[15:34]	Pier Jaecies:	is User Picks and unifying them with Landmarks
[15:35]	Pier Jaecies:	what we learned is that the way that Residents use the
[15:35]	Pier Jaecies:	User Picks
[15:35]	Pier Jaecies:	is very different from the way landmarks are used
[15:35]	Pier Jaecies:	for instance: social networking, landmarks (I like), friends (to remember them), save quotes, advertise store/merchandise, memorials to places that don’t exist anymore, mentor notes (how to guides).
[15:36]	Pier Jaecies:	those are the way residents use user picks currently
[15:36]	SignpostMarv Martin:	aka mini-blog posts & stumbleupon.com :-P
[15:36]	Kippie Friedkin:	yep
[15:36]	Pier Jaecies:	and so, we are removing that from our scope of work for this project
[15:37]	Pier Jaecies:	and concentrating on improving the use of landmark storage and history tracking
[15:37]	Pier Jaecies:	so that brings us up to date
[15:37]	Pier Jaecies:	i will now hand it over to kippie
[15:37]	Kippie Friedkin:	Great!
[15:38]	Kippie Friedkin:	We have just over 20 mins left for today...so I wanted to throw our a few wireframe studies I've worked on with regard to these ideas...
[15:38]	Pier Jaecies:	yes, kippie will give an overview of these and we are interested in your feedback on them
[15:39]	Kippie Friedkin:	If you look to my left, there is a giant wireframe :)
[15:39]	Kippie Friedkin:	This is a simple skeleton of the Viewer
[15:40]	Kippie Friedkin:	In this particular one, I've shown one example of the navigation ideas we've discussed.
[15:40]	SignpostMarv Martin:	can you shift it over a bit? the roof is in the way
[15:40]	Kippie Friedkin:	Also, in case they're a bit hard to see now, we'll be posting these to the project WIKI
[15:42]	Kippie Friedkin:	At the top left corner of the Viewer, you'll see the similar controls to what you'd find in a web browser
[15:42]	SignpostMarv Martin:	such as firefox :-P
[15:42]	Kippie Friedkin:	There are back, forward, and home buttons to help you navigate.
[15:42]	Malbers Linden:	Sorry everyone, trying to get it into a better spot
[15:42]	Kippie Friedkin:	Signpost :)
[15:43]	Kippie Friedkin:	In addition, one overwhelming request was to add an URL bar
[15:43]	Malbers Linden:	I'll quit screwing around with it now...
[15:43]	Garn Conover:	so the lower part is an example of the back button expanded?
[15:43]	Pier Jaecies:	lol
[15:43]	Kippie Friedkin:	Yes, exactly
[15:43]	Kippie Friedkin:	This is just an early concept of what the teleport history would look like
[15:44]	Kippie Friedkin:	Once these are posted, I would encourage anyone and everyone to take a closer look online and feel free to provide feedback at any time.
[15:44]	Kippie Friedkin:	Next, Malbers..I hate to do this to you, but would you mind rezzing #1?
[15:44]	Pier Jaecies:	any comments at this time?
[15:44]	SignpostMarv Martin:	you know, it'd be cool to have the teleport history have little icons to indicate any actions that may have occured in that location
[15:44]	Kippie Friedkin:	Signpost: what sort of actions?
[15:44]	SignpostMarv Martin:	buying stuff being the obvious one
[15:44]	Malbers Linden:	This is #1. Want #2?
[15:45]	SignpostMarv Martin:	sending L$ being another obvious one
[15:45]	SignpostMarv Martin:	but also getting bumped
[15:45]	Kippie Friedkin:	Let's skip two and go to #3
[15:45]	SignpostMarv Martin:	if someone gets orbited then TP'd away,
[15:45]	SignpostMarv Martin:	they're not likely to remember who/what bumped them unless they took a screen cap
[15:45]	Kippie Friedkin:	good points...I'll add these to our list
[15:46]	Garn Conover:	yea most ppl dont knwo of bump/push and sometiems it doesn't even register
[15:46]	SignpostMarv Martin:	so a bump/push icon would be handy in combatting asshattery
[15:46]	SignpostMarv Martin:	additionally,
[15:46]	SignpostMarv Martin:	a build/rez icon would be handy
[15:46]	SignpostMarv Martin:	I'm sure lots of us have rezzed stuff somewhere then later recieved an auto-return message because we logged out and forget that we left it there
[15:46]	Kippie Friedkin:	Great thoughts...I hadn't considered actions to be remembered.
[15:47]	Kippie Friedkin:	Since we're limited in time, I'm going to move to the next wireframe..
[15:47]	SignpostMarv Martin:	or in other cases, rezzing no-copy content might mean losing the content permanently
[15:47]	Kippie Friedkin:	This wireframe shows an early concept of the landmark navigation floater.
[15:47]	Kippie Friedkin:	actually...my bad..
[15:47]	Kippie Friedkin:	this is the landmark management folder
[15:47]	Kippie Friedkin:	:)
[15:47]	Kippie Friedkin:	This floater would allow residents to sort thier landmarks by specific tags they have assigned.
[15:48]	SignpostMarv Martin brings up the bookmark manager in firefox
[15:48]	Kippie Friedkin:	This is very much like Firefox or del.ico.us
[15:48]	SignpostMarv Martin:	aside from the image thing,
[15:48]	SignpostMarv Martin:	it is pretty much like it
[15:48]	Kippie Friedkin:	So, when a user clicks on the landmark, they view it over there to the right
[15:48]	Kippie Friedkin:	For each landmark, you'll see I have included a lot of information
[15:48]	SignpostMarv Martin:	considering firefox has the builit-in ability to save web pages as images, I wouldn't be surprised if there's an extension to add screencaps to the history/bookmark feature
[15:49]	Kippie Friedkin:	In addition to the land owner's description, a lot of residents have requested the ability to add their own notes
[15:49]	Kippie Friedkin:	So I've included that in this concept.
[15:49]	SignpostMarv Martin:	I notice the "my notes" section as 6 words, not 5 :-P
[15:49]	Kippie Friedkin:	Correct...the 5 limitation is for something else..and I 'll show that in a moment
[15:49]	SignpostMarv Martin:	other problem with 5-word limitation
[15:49]	SignpostMarv Martin:	supercalifragilisticexpialidocious
[15:49]	SignpostMarv Martin:	words can be really, really long
[15:50]	Kippie Friedkin:	The personal tags are unlimited, as is the personal note about a landmark.
[15:50]	Pier Jaecies:	right
[15:50]	Opensource Obscure:	character number would be more flexyble
[15:50]	Kippie Friedkin:	Malbers, would you mind rezzing #4?
[15:50]	SignpostMarv Martin:	what would be the difference between a my notes section on a landmark and a pick ?
[15:50]	Pier Jaecies:	the only limitation is for the creator to add a tag
[15:50]	Pier Jaecies:	it is much like meta-tags for websites
[15:50]	SignpostMarv Martin:	especially since the topic of making picks public and shareable was brought up
[15:50]	Pier Jaecies:	residents can add as many personal tags as they need
[15:51]	SignpostMarv Martin:	landmarks public and shareable*
[15:51]	Kippie Friedkin:	Yes, and that is something I have yet to address with bookmarks...I'm looking for feedback on how you think we can best introduce UI elements to facilitate sharing landmarks.
[15:51]	Garn Conover:	could it be like a checkmark- like share this lm?
[15:51]	Pier Jaecies:	and again, the sharing of landmarks would share the primary information / that is public
[15:52]	Pier Jaecies:	personal tagging, images and notes are secondary infomration that will stay with the residnet and not be shared
[15:52]	Pier Jaecies:	or maybe that is an option
[15:52]	Pier Jaecies:	?
[15:52]	Pier Jaecies:	any thoughts?
[15:53]	Arawn Spitteler:	So, if I hand out my personal recommendations, I could put the landmarks with comment in notecards?
[15:53]	Kippie Friedkin:	It looks like my wireframes got a bit out of order. Malbers, could I trouble you to rez the next one?
[15:53]	Ted McKenna:	the thing is you can do that now !
[15:53]	Malbers Linden:	Yeah, I think I screwed up your order good!
[15:53]	Malbers Linden:	I have #1 and #2 left.
[15:53]	Kippie Friedkin:	great...pick either and I'll run through them real quick
[15:54]	Opensource Obscure:	Pier: I would like to share almost all my landmarks , with notes and descriptions. but i would like to keep some ones not shared. so ... option
[15:54]	Garn Conover:	hard part of bein a jellyfish, no finger grip
[15:54]	Opensource Obscure:	also .. UI elements to facilitate sharing landmarks -> 'drag the lm over here to share it' + 'click here to edit your shared landmarks'
[15:54]	Pier Jaecies:	ok, good.
[15:54]	Garn Conover nods I have tons of help ones but a few personal ones
[15:54]	Kippie Friedkin:	Let me just review this last wireframe..(we'll skip the other for now), then I'll address the questions about sharing landmarks
[15:54]	SignpostMarv Martin:	it's interesting you've added a tags field to the about land floater
[15:55]	SignpostMarv Martin:	considering msot people dump tags in the description currently :-P
[15:55]	Kippie Friedkin:	The final wireframe I wanted to show is the About Land Floater
[15:55]	Kippie Friedkin:	This is where the 5 tag for a piece of land was suggested.
[15:55]	Kippie Friedkin:	There are a number of reasons for this.
[15:55]	Kippie Friedkin:	IN the future, these 5 tags could help enhance search
[15:55]	Kippie Friedkin:	But as said before, when you force someone to choose 5 words to describe something...and only five words...it forces them to choose wisely
[15:56]	Kippie Friedkin:	These 5 tags can server as recommendations when a user decides to create a landmark as well.
[15:56]	SignpostMarv Martin:	there are a few flaws with the 5 word thing
[15:56]	Arawn Spitteler wonders at the appropriateness, of asking landowners to think, since lands are places to build the vision of your choosing
[15:57]	SignpostMarv Martin:	how are hyphenates handled ?
[15:57]	Kippie Friedkin:	With that...I think that can wrap things up with the wireframes for today.
[15:57]	SignpostMarv Martin:	how are really long words handled ?
[15:57]	Kippie Friedkin:	Signpost...that is a great point.
[15:57]	Kippie Friedkin:	We'll have to further consider that idea.
[15:57]	Kippie Friedkin:	Malbers...you can remove those wireframe snow. Thanks for your help!
[15:57]	Malbers Linden:	got it.
[15:57]	SignpostMarv Martin:	why does about land get 5 tags, but personal landmarks get unlimited tags ?
[15:57]	Arawn Spitteler:	Are we talking five standard words, of five char, or five spaced words?
[15:58]	Kippie Friedkin:	Signpost: It was just a suggestion to help prevent a land owner from using a million words to describe a piece of land...words that may or may not relate at all to that land.
[15:58]	SignpostMarv Martin:	wouldn't it be easier just to limit the field to 64, 128 or full 255 CHAR() field ?
[15:58]	Opensource Obscure:	you shouldn't let us invent tags :D .. we will use 'SuperMegaMall' as 1 word .. etc.
[15:58]	SignpostMarv Martin:	maximum field length seems like a better idea than word length
[15:58]	Arawn Spitteler tries to think of four words to go with: MysticFreebieAvatarWeaponPallaceVehicles
[15:58]	Kippie Friedkin:	Yes, absolutely...tags would be invented by the person creating hte landmark
[15:59]	Pier Jaecies:	do you think 10 words would be better?
[15:59]	Pier Jaecies:	it is an open discussion
[15:59]	Pier Jaecies:	20?
[15:59]	SignpostMarv Martin:	i think limiting by the number of words is extremely short-sighted
[15:59]	Kippie Friedkin:	Keep in mind...hyphenated or lots of words joined together are les likely to appare in a good search result
[15:59]	Kippie Friedkin:	unless you're lucky enough to have a resident type in that exact combo
[15:59]	Arawn Spitteler posits 100char, or 127
[15:59]	Opensource Obscure:	sorry for not being clear. how do avoid abusing word invention?
[15:59]	SignpostMarv Martin forgets
[15:59]	SignpostMarv Martin:	can a MySQL CHAR field have a FULLTEXT index applied ?
[16:00]	Kippie Friedkin:	We'll tag these thoughts into consideration as these ideas are further developed over the next few weeks
[16:00]	Kippie Friedkin:	Unfotunately, it looks like we've reached the end of the Office Hour for today.
[16:00]	SignpostMarv Martin:	oh yes, that's another thing
[16:00]	Opensource Obscure:	fine
[16:00]	SignpostMarv Martin:	unicode double-width characters
[16:00]	Opensource Obscure:	ciao ciao
[16:00]	Kippie Friedkin:	If you'd like to continue discussions, I"m happy to stick around for a while.
[16:00]	Jonit Ivory:	ciao, a dopo
[16:01]	Pier Jaecies:	thanks kippie and thanks to everyone for joining us today
[16:01]	Arawn Spitteler wonders if a nice round figure could be devided by the parcel size
[16:01]	Pier Jaecies:	everyone's input is important to us
[16:01]	Garn Conover nibbles on Malbers
[16:01]	Kippie Friedkin:	Your input is invaluable to us, so I'm at your disposal for ideas and questions
[16:01]	Pier Jaecies:	so please feel free to contact us or send your thoughts our way
[16:01]	Arawn Spitteler:	How about, One Byte per square meter?
[16:01]	Garn Conover:	i love the ideas :)
[16:02]	Pier Jaecies:	great.
[16:03]	Arawn Spitteler:	So many bytes, to each remaining prim right, might help the lag, and not force popularity on the Null Sims
[16:03]	Kippie Friedkin:	Singpost...would you mind if I followed up with you on some of these thoughts. I am not the technical lead on this project, I'm more UI and Second Life UX focused.
[16:03]	SignpostMarv Martin:	that'd be good :-)
[16:04]	Kippie Friedkin:	You've got great input and I want to make sure that the technical team is aware of these issues.
[16:04]	Pier Jaecies:	right
[16:04]	Pier Jaecies:	absolutely
[16:04]	SignpostMarv Martin:	do bare in mind I have a habit of fixing what LL do wrong :-P
[16:04]	SignpostMarv Martin:	http://svc.sl.net.marvulous.co.uk/resident/Kippie%20Friedkin
[16:04]	SignpostMarv Martin:	http://svc.sl.net.marvulous.co.uk/resident/Pier%20Jaecies
[16:05]	Kippie Friedkin:	For those who are sticking around....I'd love to hear your thoughts on sharing landmarks.
[16:05]	Kippie Friedkin:	Currently, there are many ways that users can share a landmark. Notecards, Picks, Inventory drops, group notices, etc.
[16:05]	Seg Baphomet:	What did I miss?
[16:05]	SignpostMarv Martin:	a landmark is an URL.
[16:05]	Kippie Friedkin:	I'm lookgng for ways to make sharing of landmarks easier - if possible.
[16:05]	SignpostMarv Martin:	plenty existing ways to toss URLs around the internet
[16:06]	Kippie Friedkin:	So Signpost, do you think that simply right clicking and copying a SLURL is the best way to accomplish this?
[16:06]	SignpostMarv Martin:	hah, not a SLURL, I said before that outside the scope of SL, slurl.com is just a generic website
[16:06]	Seg Baphomet:	Web 2.0
[16:06]	SignpostMarv Martin:	secondlife://app/ URLs
[16:07]	SignpostMarv Martin:	http://svc.sl.net.marvulous.co.uk/place/Beaumont/Linden+Village+-+Benjamin+Linden
[16:07]	SignpostMarv Martin:	^places marked up as hCard
[16:07]	Kippie Friedkin:	got it
[16:07]	Seg Baphomet:	I"ve wondered if there needs to be an indirect landmark.
[16:08]	Seg Baphomet:	How many stale landmarks have YOU got in your inventory?
[16:08]	SignpostMarv Martin:	none, I don't use them
[16:08]	SignpostMarv Martin:	:-P
[16:08]	Kippie Friedkin:	Seg....stale landmarks are definitely an issue.
[16:08]	Seg Baphomet:	Stores move, people get bigger plots somewhere else. Suddenly a lot of landmarks are invalid.
[16:08]	Kippie Friedkin:	We have been looking at the idea of allowing residents to sort their landmarks by the date they created them as one way to help with this.
[16:08]	SignpostMarv Martin:	if you were going to take the route of reinventing the wheel to toss place data around, I'd advise tossing serialized hCard DOM nodes around
[16:09]	Kippie Friedkin:	In terms of landmarks that are no longer valid - I'm still on the lookout for suggestions on how to manage this issue.
[16:09]	SignpostMarv Martin:	that's pretty much a case of checking the region name exists on the grid
[16:09]	Tegg Bode:	I find it frustrating sometimes you don't get a save landmark option like when you search, I would like to pile up the 10 results I want from search then go check them landmarkk by landmark instead of researching every time :)
[16:09]	Seg Baphomet:	SL has pretty high turnover. A lot of rental "leases" are measured in *weeks*.
[16:09]	SignpostMarv Martin:	then if it does, poking said region and saying "does the parcel at these co-ordinates still have the same parcel name
[16:10]	Kippie Friedkin:	Sure...so parcel name is also soemthign that would have to be checked
[16:10]	SignpostMarv Martin:	I'm having a rather lot of "fun" with the events data
[16:10]	Kippie Friedkin:	right, exactly
[16:10]	SignpostMarv Martin:	due to the inconsistency with which Linden Lab publish event data,
[16:11]	SignpostMarv Martin:	I've got the event locations indexed by the region & parcel names
[16:11]	Arawn Spitteler:	Are you talking about the Flooded Events File, or the Find Classes Happening?
[16:11]	SignpostMarv Martin:	rather than by region & parcel UUID that picks & parcels are indexed by
[16:11]	Seg Baphomet:	I'm saying there should be landmarks that are abstracted from an actual location.
[16:11]	SignpostMarv Martin:	Arawn: I've been importing all of SL's events for the last 10 days
[16:11]	Seg Baphomet:	Think of it as a DNS for virtual locations.
[16:11]	SignpostMarv Martin:	http://svc.sl.net.marvulous.co.uk/event/1399
[16:12]	SignpostMarv Martin:	you'll notice that event doesn't have the parcel listed
[16:12]	SignpostMarv Martin:	as the data source it was pulled from didn't include the parcel name
[16:12]	SignpostMarv Martin:	so although the teleport link works,
[16:12]	SignpostMarv Martin:	you can't view the parcel on sw.slr because for all intents and purposes, it doesn't exist
[16:13]	SignpostMarv Martin:	soo getting back to what you were saying about stale landmarks,
[16:13]	SignpostMarv Martin:	"graceful degradation"
[16:13]	SignpostMarv Martin:	display as much information as possible,
[16:13]	SignpostMarv Martin:	instead of refusing to display anything, just because a single piece of information was missing
[16:13]	SignpostMarv Martin:	if it's possible to look it up,
[16:13]	SignpostMarv Martin:	it'd be handy to see who was the owner of the parcel the landmark was made from at the time it was filed,
[16:13]	SignpostMarv Martin:	so if the parcel doesn't exist,
[16:14]	SignpostMarv Martin:	it'd be possible to cross-reference against land that person/group currently owns,
[16:14]	SignpostMarv Martin:	or in the case of being owned by an individual,
[16:14]	Kippie Friedkin:	Good idea
[16:14]	SignpostMarv Martin:	cross-reference the owners' picks/public landmarks against the users' stale landmark to see if they moved
[16:15]	SignpostMarv Martin:	btw, I'm suprised Linden Lab don't cross-reference data already
[16:15]	SignpostMarv Martin:	http://svc.sl.net.marvulous.co.uk/resident/Blue+Linden/mentioned/
[16:15]	SignpostMarv Martin:	one of the reasons you cited for not including picks in the reworking project was because of how people used them
[16:16]	SignpostMarv Martin:	in this case, writing comments about a Resident, with the (i quote) "location unrelated"
[16:16]	Arawn Spitteler had best see what's left of his class-room.
[16:17]	Seg Baphomet:	Isn't that more an side effect of the limitations of profiles?
[16:17]	Kippie Friedkin:	Right. It was decided that now is not the time to deprecate something that is being used, it's use has just changed
[16:17]	Kippie Friedkin:	And the residents we have discussed this with had expressed that they still use Picks a lot...just for lots of different reasons
[16:18]	Marv Rayner:	In the recent past, when we double-clicked on a LM from our Inventories, we had the option of teleporting there or viewing the map of the location. That functionality has been removed and we can now only teleport or cancel the teleport. Personally, I used that old functionality a lot. Do you know why it was removed and if it will ever be restored?
[16:18]	SignpostMarv Martin:	the /mentioned/ pages on sw.slr just do fulltext searches for the specified Resident
[16:18]	Kippie Friedkin:	So the idea of pulling all of this info out and using the browser to navigate landmarks, users, etc. is what you're championing then
[16:19]	Seg Baphomet:	Not knowing where you're going is kind of a problem in SL.
[16:19]	SignpostMarv Martin:	one thing you should bear in mind when develping any of these features is that the OpenSim developers would be obligated to support it
[16:20]	Seg Baphomet:	Especially back before the abilityto hide from people...
[16:20]	SignpostMarv Martin:	hence why I strongly advise not developing any custom APIs or backend software, and just using the generic features built-in to Firefox
[16:20]	Tegg Bode:	Hmm, personally I like the one click , I'm on my way thing, can always right click the LM I guess, but all I need to know is it's name totell me what it is, where it is is found by going there :)
[16:20]	Seg Baphomet:	Like I said on sldev, remove the profile specific UI code from the viewer. Just make it a web page.
[16:20]	Kippie Friedkin:	Signpost...I will certainly take your suggestions along to our technical team.
[16:21]	Ted McKenna:	The way LM change daily any more it is always a good Idea to map it first to insure you do not end up in Some ones home
[16:21]	SignpostMarv Martin:	if Firefox features were used, then everything is stuck in the viewer, and doesn't require any back-end server support
[16:21]	SignpostMarv Martin:	if custom features were used, then the OpenSim peeps would have YetAnotherFeature to reverse engineer
[16:21]	Tegg Bode:	Well the map isn't going to show me if a shop is now a house :)
[16:21]	Seg Baphomet:	Then you can tweak and revise the way profiles work all you want without any viewer changes needed.
[16:22]	SignpostMarv Martin:	well the map probably should
[16:22]	Ted McKenna:	This is true but not many homes have a high traffic count haha or a large number of people already their
[16:22]	SignpostMarv Martin:	chances are if the parcel is listed under search, a person wouldn't list a house under the commerical category unless it was a brothel
[16:23]	Seg Baphomet:	Its all just prims.
[16:23]	Marv Rayner:	Is the suggestion to have to go to a browser to teleport anywhere? For those like myself who run SL in Full Screen, and often runs more than one instance of SL at a time, that would destroy any functionlaity to teleporting.
[16:23]	Tegg Bode:	Well with the population being so sparce a 100 traffic plot with no AV's doesn't tell you anything :)
[16:23]	Seg Baphomet:	In-viewer browser, hello. :P
[16:24]	Marv Rayner:	Mine seldom seems to work.
[16:24]	Tegg Bode:	Hmm perhaps if the plot showed a different color if it were listed in search, it would probably be a commercial plot
[16:24]	Kippie Friedkin:	OKay guys, I think I'm going to have to wrap things up for today. I definitely appreciate your input and feedback.
[16:24]	Seg Baphomet:	SL is known for its reliability, after all.
[16:25]	Tegg Bode:	We haven't finished yet :)
[16:25]	Kippie Friedkin:	If you have ideas, questions, comments, suggestions, rants....please feel free to IM me.
[16:25]	Kippie Friedkin:	Oh! The WIKI page for the project is located here: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Landmarks_and_Navigation_Project
[16:25]	Seg Baphomet:	Sometimes I think There had the right idea.
[16:25]	SignpostMarv Martin:	I would be interested to know if you were currently thinking of reinventing the wheel or not
[16:25]	Malbers Linden:	Bye all.
[16:26]	Ted McKenna:	good evening Malbers
[16:26]	Tegg Bode:	San I have my new wheel in chrome please with those bling spinning hubcaps :)
[16:26]	Kippie Friedkin:	Signpost: We are currently in the research phase of this project - gathering information and talking to residents
[16:26]	Seg Baphomet:	Last I used it, the There client seemed to be an IE extension.
[16:26]	Seg Baphomet:	All the UI was just HTML pages.
[16:26]	SignpostMarv Martin:	ah, good to hear you're keeping your options open :-)
[16:26]	Kippie Friedkin:	In the next few weeks, we'll be taking all of our feebdack and making specific recommendations for development.
[16:27]	Kippie Friedkin:	Resident input is key at this point.
[16:27]	Tegg Bode:	Cool, thanks for listening to us rant :)
[16:27]	Kippie Friedkin:	So your input will definitely help us as we evaluate the best way to proceed.
[16:27]	Kippie Friedkin:	And like I said, I'm going to put the transcripts from this meeting specifically in front of our technical team
[16:28]	SignpostMarv Martin:	Firefox FTW!
[16:28]	SignpostMarv Martin:	:-P
[16:28]	Kippie Friedkin:	:)
[16:28]	Tegg Bode:	Hello Technical team! :) <waves>
[16:28]	Kippie Friedkin:	hehe
[16:29]	Kippie Friedkin:	Okay everyone. Thanks again for all the great input!
[16:29]	SignpostMarv Martin:	yw, thanks for listening
[16:29]	Kippie Friedkin:	Always happy to!
[16:30]	Kippie Friedkin:	Cheers for now :)
[16:30]	Ted McKenna:	Have a good evening every one !
[16:31]	Kippie Friedkin:	ugh..I just got kicked again
[16:31]	Benjamin Linden:	hi guys, I'm off to another meeting!
[16:31]	Benjamin Linden:	thanks for coming today
[16:32]	Tegg Bode:	Can we come to the other meeting? :)
[16:33]	Seg Baphomet:	The meetings never stop.
[16:33]	Seg Baphomet:	How does anyone get any work done. :)