User:Benjamin Linden/Office Hours/2008-06-12

Transcript of Benjamin Linden's office hours:

[14:59]	Jin Amiot:	The friends list; What i would like to see one the friends list is being able to sort them into different categorys
[14:59]	Dusan Writer applauds Jin
[14:59]	Jin Amiot:	Lol Dusan
[15:00]	Jin Amiot:	Is this a planned addition, or are you going to aadd this now that i have mentioned it?
[15:00]	Grant Linden:	would you like to make your own categories?
[15:00]	Jin Amiot:	Yeah
[15:00]	Stephen Posaner:	def a big help to some one who deals with multiple clubs as a dj
[15:00]	Jin Amiot:	Im a very busy man, and have many contacts, and so get confused as to who are they all (on my friends list)..... So being able to order them into different categories so to speak is an idea i would LOVE to see!
[15:00]	Stephen Posaner:	or to rem where u met someone with out having to open profile
[15:01]	Grant Linden:	I can't commit the team to adding a feature, but it is a good idea and I will see if it is in the works
[15:01]	Dusan Writer:	social networking tools in general need a rethink IMHO
[15:01]	Jin Amiot:	And if its not in the works... Is there anything you can do to get it in there?
[15:01]	Grant Linden:	I will do some research on that
[15:01]	Stephen Posaner:	that would be filed in the jira
[15:01]	Grant Linden:	indeed
[15:02]	Stephen Posaner:	as a feature request
[15:02]	Jin Amiot:	Could i fill it in there?
[15:02]	Kippie Friedkin:	Afternoon all!
[15:02]	Grant Linden:	yes you can
[15:02]	Stephen Posaner:	do a serch first
[15:02]	Jin Amiot:	The more people they get asking, the more they are gonna want to do it xD
[15:02]	Grant Linden:	hello Kippie
[15:02]	PulseBurst Flow:	Hi
[15:03]	Jin Amiot:	Hi pulse
[15:03]	Grant Linden:	the public Jira is a great way to get momentum behind a feature suggestion
[15:03]	Jin Amiot:	I see
[15:03]	Jin Amiot:	I will stick it on there later :)
[15:03]	Grant Linden:	welcome PulseBurst
[15:03]	Stephen Posaner:	I only know by going to bug triage meetings
[15:03]	PulseBurst Flow:	Thanks Grant..are these your office hours?
[15:03]	Grant Linden:	I am working on social networking tool, myself, so I am interested in features like that one
[15:03]	Jacek Antonelli:	Hi all!
[15:04]	Grant Linden:	these are Ben's office hours and I am filling in for him
[15:04]	PulseBurst Flow:	Hi Hacek
[15:04]	Kippie Friedkin:	Hi Jacek
[15:04]	PulseBurst Flow:	ok.
[15:04]	Grant Linden:	hello Jacek
[15:04]	Stephen Posaner:	grant you have a wiki page on what you do with linden
[15:04]	Shirley Marquez:	thank you for filling n, Grant
[15:04]	Shirley Marquez:	in
[15:04]	Grant Linden:	hello Squirrel Wood
[15:04]	Squirrel Wood:	/ao on
[15:05]	Grant Linden:	I have not made my page yet :)
[15:05]	Squirrel Wood:	Hello ^^
[15:05]	Grant Linden:	this is my 9th day
[15:05]	Squirrel Wood:	/ao off
[15:05]	Jin Amiot:	Lol
[15:05]	Shirley Marquez:	oh! Congratulations on your new Lindenhood
[15:05]	Stephen Posaner:	wow welkom
[15:05]	PulseBurst Flow:	oh..too busy working on your Bear grant?
[15:05]	Dusan Writer:	how old are you on your pre-Linden AV grant out of curiosity
[15:05]	Grant Linden:	so, I am sure many of you will know public Jira process much better than myself
[15:06]	Grant Linden:	I am about 14 months old in my pre-Linden avie
[15:06]	Squirrel Wood:	We fight with it as much as you :p
[15:06]	Grant Linden:	and about 10 years in online social networking
[15:06]	Stephen Posaner:	kool
[15:06]	Shirley Marquez:	so you're not a newbie like M :)
[15:07]	Grant Linden:	no, I hope not
[15:07]	Grant Linden:	heh
[15:07]	Jacek Antonelli:	Woot, welcome, Grant :D
[15:07]	Grant Linden:	I would like to officially get started
[15:07]	Grant Linden:	I am filling in for Ben who is out this week
[15:08]	Grant Linden:	I have a question or two I would like to present to you
[15:08]	Jin Amiot:	Ok
[15:08]	Stephen Posaner:	if i have an aswer it is yours
[15:08]	Kippie Friedkin:	sweet
[15:08]	Stephen Posaner:	ok
[15:08]	Grant Linden:	and get your help with a little brainstorming
[15:09]	Stephen Posaner:	bring it on
[15:09]	Grant Linden:	this might be similiar to past discussions about landmarking
[15:10]	Kippie Friedkin:	Cool. Hey Grant...just an FYI...I'm working on the Landmark and Navigation project. So if you have any questions about that, I'd be happy to help.
[15:10]	Grant Linden:	if you were to suggest five categories of Second Life destinations to a new user who you did not know well, what would they be?
[15:10]	Grant Linden:	that's great, Kippie
[15:10]	PulseBurst Flow:	Food, Gas, Lodging..um..and 2 more.
[15:10]	Jacek Antonelli:	lol
[15:10]	Jin Amiot:	Where to get free lindens..... Avatar store..... Gaming hall..... Clubs..... And 1 more :)
[15:10]	Shirley Marquez:	I'd start with the welcoming places: NCI, The Shelter, places like that
[15:11]	Kippie Friedkin:	Learning/Tutorials
[15:11]	Grant Linden:	so, this is a person who does not even know they need Lindens yet
[15:11]	Kippie Friedkin:	Hangouts
[15:11]	Stephen Posaner:	NCI, clubs, games, mexico, torley
[15:11]	Jacek Antonelli thinks.... Hrm. Learning, Newbie-friendly places (Shelter,NCI, etc.), Art, Stores, Clubs
[15:11]	Grant Linden:	this is great, now I am going to ask the question in another way
[15:11]	Dimitrio Lewis:	generally it's best to understand their personality so you can recommend something meaningful to them which won't drive them away
[15:12]	Kippie Friedkin:	That's a good point, Dimitrio.
[15:12]	PulseBurst Flow:	Yes, Dimitrio is right..ask them
[15:12]	Stephen Posaner:	second Dimitro
[15:12]	Dusan Writer:	Learn SL, Socialize, Explore, Immersion, Shop
[15:12]	Dusan Writer:	branch from there
[15:12]	Grant Linden:	lets say you could create five tours of SL - for example a Club tour, a shopping tour, an exploring tour
[15:13]	PulseBurst Flow:	Gor Tour?
[15:13]	Kippie Friedkin:	lol
[15:13]	Dusan Writer:	haha
[15:13]	Grant Linden:	what klinds of themes would be useful
[15:13]	Grant Linden:	*kinds
[15:13]	Shirley Marquez:	I think one would have to focus on creation -- that's what really turns some people on
[15:13]	Dusan Writer:	what's the purpose of the tour idea Grant.
[15:13]	Stephen Posaner:	depends so much on personality
[15:13]	Shirley Marquez:	go to the Ivory Tower, stop in at a sandbox...
[15:13]	Emily Darrow is Offline
[15:14]	PulseBurst Flow:	Well, Grant, look at Search Events..for some catagories..
[15:14]	Stephen Posaner:	a good sandbox some are not so great
[15:14]	Kippie Friedkin:	For some new people I've worked with, it's about the "wow" factor. We show our clients cool places they can explore and that seems to reel them in a bit more.
[15:14]	Grant Linden:	think of the tour as a way to show someone who is skeptical of the value of SL how cool it is
[15:14]	PulseBurst Flow:	There are 10 catagories there.
[15:14]	Dusan Writer:	if the purpose is to hook them, then wherever you send them should have people if they're new
[15:14]	Kippie Friedkin:	So I keep Landmarks of builds that I find particularly interesting or well-done.
[15:14]	Stephen Posaner:	some place that uses voice to give them a tast of that
[15:14]	Shirley Marquez:	the club/social tour would be another -- include a good formal ballroom, a polite place like Caledon, and a modern dance club
[15:14]	Jacek Antonelli:	Hehe. The Rezzable sims would show them how cool SL is :D
[15:14]	Dusan Writer:	it's not what they see, it's whether the places they choose have some people they can start chatting with
[15:14]	Grant Linden:	that is great, Kippie
[15:15]	Dimitrio Lewis:	voice as an option sure, but not under pressure
[15:15]	Shirley Marquez:	oh yes, art!! NPIRL, the Second Louvre
[15:15]	Kippie Friedkin:	Places like the Palomar Hospital, anything by Rezzable, Cisco Future Home
[15:15]	Squirrel Wood:	hmm.... I would show the good and the bad in a tour. and give an explanation as to why it is considered good and bad.
[15:15]	Grant Linden:	these people may not even know they can chat with others yet - or not know how cool that will be
[15:15]	Shirley Marquez:	and I'll get in a plug for Brooklyn is Watching, though I'm not unbiased -- I'm blogging for them :)
[15:15]	Kippie Friedkin:	Comcastic Island...I know these places are pretty commercial.
[15:16]	Kippie Friedkin:	But they're also pretty interactive which helps to teach peopke some simple things like sitting and interacting with objects.
[15:16]	Jacek Antonelli:	Yeah, first stop should be the social places, and get them set up with a "support network" -- someplace they know they can go if they need help
[15:16]	Stephen Posaner:	wow I like the back woods places of sl as well
[15:16]	Dusan Writer:	Sorry, I think all those ideas are great, but seeing a nice build won't hook them as well as dropping them into people
[15:16]	PulseBurst Flow:	Those are specifics....Grant, you are just looking for catagories? So..Art would be a catagory..as opposed to specific places. Building another.
[15:16]	Shirley Marquez:	some of that learning, like how to chat, will happen during the tour
[15:16]	Grant Linden:	catagories are better than places
[15:16]	Dusan Writer:	true
[15:16]	Grant Linden:	places always change
[15:17]	Dimitrio Lewis:	creation.. I wonder if somebody has made a video in SL featuring all the forms of creation together, and the video itself an example
[15:17]	Grant Linden:	and we need to be able to pull from the hundreds of cool places on SL
[15:17]	Shirley Marquez:	oh, that reminds me... Torley needs to make a video tutorial about the video tutorials!
[15:17]	Jacek Antonelli:	hehe
[15:17]	Grant Linden:	that is interesting, Dimitrio
[15:17]	Kippie Friedkin:	lol
[15:17]	Shirley Marquez:	so many now, people don't even know where to start
[15:17]	Kippie Friedkin:	need to make TorleyTube
[15:17]	Stephen Posaner:	he has a wiki page on it
[15:18]	Jacek Antonelli:	Games / recreation would be another good category
[15:18]	PulseBurst Flow:	you don't have to know.you start where you start..orientation..
[15:18]	Dusan Writer:	i wonder if it's actually categorizing so much as some kind of tagging system, just brainstorming, because you can sort of have cross-categories, or maybe have regions able to put in a "What will I discover here" box or something.
[15:18]	Jacek Antonelli:	Sailing, racing, game shows...
[15:18]	Grant Linden:	that might be one way, Dusan
[15:18]	Squirrel Wood:	How about a tour that shows simple things that don't overwhelm the newbie?
[15:18]	PulseBurst Flow:	actually, part of the fun is discovering..rather than being channelled into a guided tour
[15:18]	Shirley Marquez:	I think another category might focus on avatar creation/customizing -- I know from my CSI:NY experience that some people REALLY want to go wild with that right away
[15:19]	Dimitrio Lewis:	I agree with that, PulseBurst
[15:19]	Kippie Friedkin:	Shirley...I agree, totally.
[15:19]	Grant Linden:	I agree, PulseBurst, and discovery ultimately is the goal
[15:19]	Dusan Writer:	When I started, the hardest question someone asked me was "What do you want to do" because i thought it was a game of course, and i said "What do you mean", couldn't for the life of me answer that
[15:20]	Squirrel Wood:	a tour should give hints, tiny glimpses at stuff that is there, show parts of the whole and animate the person taking it to go there and explore?
[15:20]	Shirley Marquez:	omg, yes! The "what do I do now" question...
[15:20]	Grant Linden:	yes, Squirrel
[15:20]	Dimitrio Lewis:	what was your experience in the beginning that encouraged you to stick around, Dusan?
[15:20]	Shirley Marquez:	SL is so open ended
[15:20]	Dusan Writer:	you could kind of think of it as Bartle's gamer types - explorers, socializers, killers and um, can't remember the fourth :P
[15:20]	Dusan Writer:	i met people DImitrio
[15:21]	Grant Linden:	come and join us if you like, Arcadia
[15:21]	Squirrel Wood:	So perchance a group of sims should come to existence where you have parts of other sims replicated. as model, or viewable through a window, ...
[15:21]	Dusan Writer:	and within an hour they helped me out, showed me around, etc
[15:21]	Shirley Marquez:	here in SL you would also have a category for creators/builders
[15:21]	Squirrel Wood:	with landmark dispensers so people can go explore
[15:21]	Shirley Marquez:	I guess some video games have that too -- the kind of Quake player who wants to fire up the level editor on the first day
[15:21]	Grant Linden:	I wonder how many people never make it far enough into SL and quit becasue they never visited a cool place or men any people
[15:21]	Grant Linden:	met any people
[15:21]	Dusan Writer:	there are some good private efforts on the grid with sort of tour offices, with photos of attractions, landmark givers, and i know someone who's doing a really hot tour HUD
[15:21]	Dimitrio Lewis:	my experience was the same, meeting people, in a more intimate setting than the busy welcome area
[15:22]	PulseBurst Flow:	no way to know that Grant
[15:22]	Kippie Friedkin:	I'd wager that's a large percentage.
[15:22]	Dusan Writer:	yeah i wanted out of the welcome area as quick as i could, was afraid i looked like a dork
[15:22]	Shirley Marquez:	I know that for me, it was the people I met that were the key to staying
[15:22]	Dusan Writer:	which i did
[15:22]	Grant Linden:	and so, if you could show them interesting things before they came to orientation island, what would you show them?
[15:23]	Shirley Marquez:	I had the great good fortune to land at Waterhead (then a new backup welcome area) when I arrived... Mentors to help, friendly people, no griefers, not much lag
[15:23]	Jacek Antonelli:	_Before_ they came to orientation island? Hm.
[15:23]	Dimitrio Lewis:	it can be difficult though, if you leave the welcome area and don't know where you're going.. if you wander into somebody's house, they might not be particularly friendly
[15:23]	Shirley Marquez:	Before Orientation? Hard question -- I'd have to have some sense of the person
[15:23]	PulseBurst Flow:	Hmm..pre-Orientation...next you'll be asking about pre-pre-orientation.
[15:23]	Grant Linden:	and that is the challenge
[15:24]	Grant Linden:	consider that you don't know the person
[15:24]	Shirley Marquez:	whether they'd be more interested in a hot club, a sculpture, or a landscape
[15:24]	Shirley Marquez:	if I had to work with no knowledge at all, I'd try to touch all of those
[15:24]	Grant Linden:	that brings me to the question of showing this unknown person categories
[15:24]	Grant Linden:	and letting them choose a tour
[15:24]	Jacek Antonelli:	Create, socialize, play, shop.... I think those would be the very-broad categories of what people like to do
[15:24]	PulseBurst Flow:	Grant..just figure out how cults get and retain members..then use that technique.
[15:25]	Grant Linden:	cults like "Apple computers"?
[15:25]	Jacek Antonelli:	Pre-pre-orientation = drink the kool-aid
[15:25]	PulseBurst Flow:	;D
[15:25]	Dusan Writer:	send everyone to Svarha
[15:25]	Dusan Writer:	svarga
[15:25]	Grant Linden:	that is a nice place
[15:26]	Shirley Marquez:	partly we just have to admit that we'll never keep everybody
[15:26]	Dusan Writer:	whatever you do, mask out mainland for newbies!
[15:26]	Dusan Writer:	:P
[15:26]	Dimitrio Lewis:	that is an interesting idea though... everyone has interests, and I bet they'd enjoy getting together and chatting with likeminded people and form a raport. There are all sorts of group gettogethers in the events calender, but not neccessarily easy to spot
[15:26]	Grant Linden:	this is true, and we need to work on that as well
[15:26]	Char Linden is Online
[15:26]	Shirley Marquez:	the people who really want a structured "game" where they can go out and kill things will never be really happy here
[15:27]	Jacek Antonelli:	Oh, another broad category, is explore / experience. See new and interesting things
[15:27]	PulseBurst Flow:	whoops
[15:27]	Grant Linden:	excellent, Jacek
[15:27]	Dimitrio Lewis:	that's true, Shirley. SL can be their instant messenger though
[15:27]	Dimitrio Lewis:	a somewhat bulky one
[15:27]	PulseBurst Flow:	just TP out of here like a newbie
[15:28]	Dusan Writer:	i mean think about Amazon right
[15:28]	Dusan Writer:	well look, what works on the Net?
[15:28]	Grant Linden:	what about Amazon do you think applies to SL ?
[15:28]	Dusan Writer:	what if in addition to a very select group of locations you send people it could also sort of tell you "People who liked this sim also liked this other one"
[15:28]	Dusan Writer:	The referral engine idea
[15:29]	Dusan Writer:	The way that it's community collaboration, tagging content, and it forms recommendations
[15:29]	Shirley Marquez:	how about user-contributed reviews of sims?
[15:29]	Grant Linden:	would you display that information in the landmark area?
[15:29]	Dusan Writer:	"If you liked Midian, you'll probably also like Toxian"
[15:29]	Grant Linden:	Amazon-like reviews?
[15:29]	Shirley Marquez:	I wonder if it would work, or whether it would just get spammed by sim owners
[15:29]	Dusan Writer:	Not sure reviews, more like traffic patterns kind of
[15:29]	Grant Linden:	how would you know who's review to trust?
[15:29]	Dusan Writer:	Not qualitative but quantitiative
[15:29]	Jacek Antonelli:	Hehe. Shop owners will be happy about that ;) "If you like my store, you should go check out my competitor's!"
[15:30]	Shirley Marquez:	Amazon actually has to do some policing of reviews
[15:30]	Jacek Antonelli:	(I kid, I kid)
[15:30]	Grant Linden:	one of the challenges of SL is the low bar of joining
[15:30]	Dusan Writer:	It's not so much the reviews maybe as patterns - say it was done on a teleport in/out basis, then cross-tabbed to tags and search words
[15:30]	Dimitrio Lewis:	in theory it could be based on metrics, tracking the time spent in sims, without user input
[15:30]	PulseBurst Flow:	Grant, I take it from your questions that there is a feeling that retention is poor..
[15:31]	Shirley Marquez:	that low bar seems to have brought in low expectations as well...
[15:31]	Dusan Writer:	Because you need it to be sort of organic, grow, change
[15:31]	PulseBurst Flow:	but how can you really know?
[15:31]	Shirley Marquez:	some people are militantly opposed to spending any RL money here
[15:31]	Grant Linden:	at Amamzon or Ebay the trust factor is mananged by the social environment
[15:31]	Erica Linden is Offline
[15:31]	Dusan Writer:	If you lock down categories and tours, then how does it change over time
[15:31]	Grant Linden:	the categories would have to evolve over time
[15:31]	Dusan Writer:	yeah and we dont want to return the "rate this" idea
[15:32]	Shirley Marquez:	I think the fact that new arrivals don't get a bit of starter money hurts too -- nothing to get them used to the idea of buying
[15:32]	Grant Linden:	that's an interesting point, Shirley
[15:32]	Dusan Writer:	i think the issue with search is, it tends towards objects and builds rather than experiences
[15:32]	Shirley Marquez:	no First Land to suck them in either -- though I understand the problems of gaming the system that it had
[15:32]	Grant Linden:	but since joining is free, then essentially LL would be paying you to create an avie
[15:33]	Dusan Writer:	oh and yeah, other than meeting person, the reason i stayed was someone gave me 300L for hair
[15:33]	Dusan Writer:	hair is the key
[15:33]	Jacek Antonelli:	hehe
[15:33]	Shirley Marquez:	Event search could lead to experiences... but it's so overrun with spam now
[15:33]	Jacek Antonelli:	Gotta have good hair!
[15:33]	Grant Linden:	hair is very important
[15:33]	Dusan Writer:	30% would stay if they got better hair
[15:33]	Jacek Antonelli giggles
[15:33]	Dimitrio Lewis:	could the events calender be highlighted as with the showcase
[15:34]	PulseBurst Flow:	free money? that could be gamed..soon can see 50 million accounts. ;-D
[15:34]	Shirley Marquez:	Dusan, all newbies can get good hair for free -- they just don't know where to go
[15:34]	Grant Linden:	we are working on changes to the sowcase
[15:34]	Grant Linden:	showcase
[15:34]	Shirley Marquez:	at least two stores offer free vouchers for new residents
[15:34]	Dusan Writer:	well shirley land them at the free hair store, plus they learn about shopping and attachments!
[15:34]	Kippie Friedkin:	What if some store owners were to give away from better freebies. Better hair and clothes. I know my friends would be cool with that if there was a landmark to their stores included.
[15:35]	Dimitrio Lewis:	With such a huge community, it must be tricky. Anywhere that gets featured will attract attention, which is fine for extraverts, but introverts would prefer just one or two others around them
[15:35]	Kippie Friedkin:	So avatar customization - at least to get away from the default av, would be a bit easier.
[15:35]	Grant Linden:	one of the ideas we are discussing is how much more engaged a new user would be if they could change thier hair *before* they rezzed the first time
[15:35]	PulseBurst Flow:	There are lots of resources for new people..why not just send people straight from Orientation to NCI.
[15:35]	Shirley Marquez:	there ARE lots of good freebies. But the newcomers mostly don't know how to find them
[15:35]	Dusan Writer:	yay grant!
[15:35]	Dusan Writer:	as i've posted, the AV customization should happen before you log on
[15:36]	Shirley Marquez:	how would that work? Don't you need the tools in the environment?
[15:36]	Stephen Posaner:	LL is working on new noobie AVs
[15:36]	Stephen Posaner:	I took the poll
[15:36]	Shirley Marquez:	I suppose you could first arrive in a private space
[15:36]	Kippie Friedkin:	Oh yeah..me too. Forgot about htat
[15:36]	Kippie Friedkin:	that
[15:36]	Jacek Antonelli:	Something like choose from 10 styles, in 10 colors?
[15:36]	Dimitrio Lewis:	arriving on an escape pod that crashed into the grid stranding you here? :P
[15:36]	Jacek Antonelli:	You could do that from a web browser
[15:36]	Dusan Writer:	should be a Flash-based app external to the grid which somehow translated the AV shape choices in world
[15:36]	Jin Amiot:	((((((((((((( For all interested in the custom categories in the friends list : https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-7732 ))))))))))))))))))))
[15:37]	Shirley Marquez:	CSI gave you a choice of 12 pre-designed avatars -- not much variety, but at least they were all a lot better than purple shirt girl or white T-shirt guy
[15:37]	Grant Linden:	nice work, Jin
[15:37]	Dusan Writer:	everyone check your Library - the new AV choices are actually in there
[15:37]	Jin Amiot:	:)
[15:37]	Stephen Posaner:	I wish all the noobie avs were in one spot not variant on where u chooses to start liffe
[15:37]	Jin Amiot:	Ive used a few of those, and i am suprised
[15:37]	Shirley Marquez:	I've seen them there; haven't tried any of them on yet
[15:37]	Grant Linden:	what other ideas might create more desirability *before* a new person rezzed for the first time?
[15:37]	Stephen Posaner:	did not know the new ones had hit the library
[15:38]	Kippie Friedkin:	wow..yep, there they are
[15:38]	Stephen Posaner:	yahy more avs to play withj
[15:38]	PulseBurst Flow:	this can't be right.
[15:38]	Shirley Marquez:	There was a program for a while where you could sign up for a greeter who would welcome you when you arrived...
[15:38]	Jacek Antonelli:	hehehe. *everybody gets distracted trying on new avies*
[15:38]	Shirley Marquez:	it was a nice idea, but it didn't scale and some of the greeters didn't take it very seriously
[15:39]	Dusan Writer:	um sorry shouldn't have said that haha
[15:39]	Dimitrio Lewis:	pair people up with a new friend who's also logging in for the first time? based on a short personality quiz when you register?
[15:39]	Shirley Marquez:	my other avatar (male) tried it, and his greeter mostly used it as an opportunity to push her club
[15:39]	Dusan Writer:	how to shop and attach stuff really
[15:39]	Grant Linden:	what if you could invite a friend to SL and then meet them when they arrived at a special place and maybe take a tour together?
[15:39]	Jacek Antonelli:	That would rock, Grant
[15:39]	Kippie Friedkin:	I like that a lot
[15:39]	Kippie Friedkin:	That's actually how I first started.
[15:40]	PulseBurst Flow:	Grant, I think that happens naturally
[15:40]	Shirley Marquez:	that's great if you have friends from outside that you think might be interested...
[15:40]	Grant Linden:	you could invite more than one person
[15:40]	PulseBurst Flow:	without LL setting up dates.
[15:40]	Shirley Marquez:	but if you don't know anybody and you're coming to SL hoping to meet people, no help
[15:40]	Kippie Friedkin:	A friend told me to sign up. And then when I logged in for the first time, they TP'd me to a spot and then took me on a tour.
[15:40]	Dusan Writer:	now thats a good idea Grant
[15:40]	Dusan Writer:	something that integrates with e-mail
[15:40]	Jin Amiot:	Damn, ive gotta leave, buisness calls
[15:40]	Dusan Writer:	and maybe with other social apps, like a Facebook widget stuff like that
[15:40]	Grant Linden:	Shirley, what if when you arrived you took the tour with five other people?
[15:40]	Jin Amiot:	Thank you grant
[15:40]	Kippie Friedkin:	That would be nice too when you're workign with clients who are new to SL
[15:41]	Shirley Marquez:	Grant, I think that could work really well
[15:41]	Grant Linden:	thank you for coming Jin
[15:41]	Jin Amiot:	See you all later. Good look Grant in your linden-hood. I wish you all the best :)
[15:41]	Grant Linden:	thank you :)
[15:41]	Jacek Antonelli:	5 random people, or 5 friends? I wouldn't want to take a tour with some newbie guy constantly asking for sex ;)
[15:41]	Dusan Writer:	do the tour guides get to carry around little megaphones and hold a little sign up so their tour group doesn't get lost?
[15:41]	Kippie Friedkin:	hehe
[15:42]	Grant Linden:	if there was a tour guide/mentor driving the bus they could take care of the rude people
[15:42]	Shirley Marquez:	Jacek, I don't think that would be too much of a problem -- especially if the tour guide could eject someone who did that
[15:42]	Stephen Posaner:	thier is a catagorie sex
[15:42]	Grant Linden:	and explain things
[15:42]	Dusan Writer:	oh, and of course a free shirt "I went to SL and all I got was this lousy T-shirt"
[15:42]	Kippie Friedkin:	lol
[15:42]	Grant Linden:	yes, Dusan
[15:42]	Jacek Antonelli:	Ah, I was thinking of a self-guided tour
[15:42]	Dimitrio Lewis:	Jacek, I used to suggest the first 7 days be PG areas only... nobody would go for that though :P
[15:42]	Stephen Posaner:	better than I rode a pony
[15:42]	Grant Linden:	and maybe a group that you could join that you took the tour together
[15:42]	Shirley Marquez:	I might add one more bennie... if the tour group hits it off, let them form a group with the fee waived
[15:42]	Sue Linden is Offline
[15:43]	Dusan Writer:	nice idea shirley
[15:43]	PulseBurst Flow:	my first experience on mainland was at midnight on Murray..no one around.
[15:43]	Shirley Marquez:	it's not as if they can pay, none of them are going to have an L$
[15:43]	Dusan Writer:	it seems to me though that people stay mostly because of happenstance or because it was pre-planned, like their school told them to come here, or work or whatever
[15:43]	Grant Linden:	that was my original path, Dusan
[15:44]	Dusan Writer:	so the question is, how do you make the happenstance more happening
[15:44]	Jacek Antonelli:	Hrmmm. I wonder if instead of giving them free money, you could give them "vouchers" -- to do stuff like upload pictures, form groups, and.. um, other stuff that takes L$ into the system
[15:44]	Char Linden is Offline
[15:44]	Grant Linden:	showing people things outside of the core reason they joinded SL might help with retention
[15:44]	Shirley Marquez:	hmmm... and maybe some free shopping vouchers too
[15:44]	Kippie Friedkin:	I like that...it would help prevent gaming
[15:44]	PulseBurst Flow:	Hmm..like a camping system..except LL gives the payout.
[15:44]	Dusan Writer:	how about the pre-packaged tours had a quest element to it, since most people think it's a game
[15:44]	PulseBurst Flow:	not a good idea.
[15:44]	Dimitrio Lewis:	There absolutely are too many people who walk around aimlessly, not making any immediate friends (mentors can't really fulfil that), and they could be drawn together in some way for sure
[15:44]	Shirley Marquez:	that would get them in the habit of visiting the stores :)
[15:45]	Kippie Friedkin:	The vouchers can be tied to the UUID of the av
[15:45]	Grant Linden:	Jacek, vouchers for groups is interesting
[15:45]	Grant Linden:	or for hair :)
[15:45]	Kippie Friedkin:	lol
[15:45]	Dusan Writer:	"Find the 5 gold coins and get a free voucher" kind of idea, have sims bid on hosting the gold coins or treasures or whatever
[15:45]	Jacek Antonelli:	Ooh, yeah, stores could have a way to accept vouchers
[15:45]	Kippie Friedkin:	nice.
[15:45]	Shirley Marquez:	there are gift card systems being used by some stores already
[15:45]	Jacek Antonelli:	That would eliminate cries of "z0mg favoritism you put that other store's LM in the library, but not mine!"
[15:45]	PulseBurst Flow:	Grant. I have a UI issue.
[15:45]	Dusan Writer:	end of it, you've seen some stuff, maybe got distracted, but felt like you had a goal, something to do
[15:46]	Shirley Marquez:	if you could have a unified one... the gift card would be no-trans and presumably the goods you bought would be as well
[15:46]	Grant Linden:	here is another aspect to the tour - after you take one tour you can either explore or take another
[15:46]	Shirley Marquez:	that would be cool -- check out one of the other aspects if more than one appealed to you
[15:46]	Dusan Writer:	people pay crazy fees for their classifieds, they can pay to host the quest stuff, and pay to give out the vouchers, each tour maybe ends with a different voucher type depending - something more educational, something more about clothes and immersion
[15:47]	IM: Dusan Writer: sure
[15:47]	IM: Dusan Writer: i'll leave it up to you to bring it up if it's ok or i might come across as spamming haha
[15:47]	PulseBurst Flow:	you think there might be time at this meeting for it?
[15:47]	Kippie Friedkin:	I really like the treasure hunt stuff.
[15:47]	Shirley Marquez:	we haven't even talked about in-world classes -- they're another great resource
[15:47]	Grant Linden:	tiem at this meeting for what?
[15:47]	PulseBurst Flow:	A UI issue.
[15:48]	Grant Linden:	yes, indeed
[15:48]	Kippie Friedkin:	I am in a treasure hunt group that meets one a month...helps you discover all sorts of new places in SL (and you get free stuff).
[15:48]	Jacek Antonelli is wondering where the tour guides are going to come from... are they paid? volunteers? how do we avoid the problems the mentor system has seen?
[15:48]	Grant Linden:	go ahead, PulseBurst
[15:48]	Kippie Friedkin:	I sometimes recommend new people join that group.
[15:48]	PulseBurst Flow:	One of the nice features of navigation is that when you walk into a steep terrain or build, you can continue forward and climb it, rather than having to switch to flying, fly up, overshoot, land to walk some more.
[15:48]	Shirley Marquez:	I still love those, Kippie, even though I end up throwing away 95% of the stuff I find
[15:48]	Raymond Linden is Online
[15:48]	PulseBurst Flow:	Are you familiar with that kind of navigation?
[15:48]	Grant Linden:	yes I am
[15:49]	Grant Linden:	are you suggesting a "climb" animation?
[15:49]	PulseBurst Flow:	OK..well, now, it seems, someone at LL may have considered this feature to be a bug, and is possibly "fixing" (breaking) it.
[15:49]	Shirley Marquez:	PulseBurst, I thought the latest server version was supposed to "fix" the ability to climb walls
[15:49]	PulseBurst Flow:	DEV-15875: Avatar now collides with tall prims, rather than walking up walls.
[15:50]	Jacek Antonelli:	Hmmph
[15:50]	Grant Linden:	so, it is bugged and in triage
[15:50]	PulseBurst Flow:	fix? what was not broken Shirley?
[15:50]	Stephen Posaner:	i likes walking up terraine
[15:50]	PulseBurst Flow:	me too..
[15:50]	Shirley Marquez:	that's why I put "fix" in quotes
[15:50]	PulseBurst Flow:	and seems to be correct action
[15:50]	Jacek Antonelli:	The fix is the bug -- we don't want it "fixed", hehe
[15:50]	Stephen Posaner:	but we can fly
[15:50]	PulseBurst Flow:	right..and I don't know if it was ever discussed in a Public Jira even
[15:51]	Shirley Marquez:	Havok4 also broke some stairs -- the steps became too big to climb
[15:51]	Jacek Antonelli:	I think this would be better discussed in Havok4 office hours, maybe
[15:51]	Emily Darrow is Online
[15:51]	PulseBurst Flow:	Perhaps.
[15:51]	Shirley Marquez:	ok, we'll stick to talking about it as user expereince
[15:51]	Grant Linden:	is the question about what the desired behavior should be?
[15:51]	PulseBurst Flow:	but it's a UI question
[15:52]	Shirley Marquez:	yes, that was the question we were raising
[15:52]	PulseBurst Flow:	and maybe not left to engineers
[15:52]	Grant Linden:	what would you like to have happen?
[15:52]	PulseBurst Flow:	I think the desired behaviour is that you can walk up walks..
[15:52]	PulseBurst Flow:	like you can already
[15:52]	Sheet Spotter:	Andrew Linden holds office hours for physics (i.e., avatar motion) at 5PM SL time secondlife://Content to Hover/128/128/25
[15:53]	Shirley Marquez:	it's slow, so flying is quicker -- but if you don't know how to do that, at least you can still get where you want to go
[15:53]	Grant Linden:	that is good feedback
[15:53]	Shirley Marquez:	and maybe it's a no-fly area and you don't know how to get around it yet
[15:53]	Dusan Writer:	i just teleport everywhere i could never figure out walking really
[15:53]	Jacek Antonelli:	What day is that, Sheet?
[15:53]	Sheet Spotter:	Today. In just over one hour.
[15:53]	Jacek Antonelli:	Cool
[15:53]	PulseBurst Flow:	sure, you can conciouly make a decision to fly..but lots of times just walking is smoother and less disruptive..
[15:53]	Grant Linden:	Before we run out of time I would like Dusan to tell the residents here about her contest.
[15:54]	Shirley Marquez:	and newbies don't know that no-fly zones don't work
[15:54]	PulseBurst Flow:	deals with bad terrain, steep builds
[15:54]	Sheet Spotter:	Andrew also holds Office Hours Tuesdays at 11 AM.
[15:54]	Shirley Marquez quiets down to hear Dusan
[15:54]	Dusan Writer:	"his"
[15:54]	Grant Linden:	sorry!
[15:54]	Grant Linden rubs his eyes
[15:54]	Dusan Writer:	haha naw it's ok
[15:54]	PulseBurst Flow:	yes, bring it up with Adrew..but who makes the UI decisions?
[15:54]	Dusan Writer:	i'm holding a contest for people to come up with new designs for the client
[15:55]	Dusan Writer:	just the designs, not the code
[15:55]	PulseBurst Flow:	you mean like skinning?
[15:55]	Dusan Writer:	just to get ideas flowing on what a simpler interface might look like, call it a "newbie viewer"
[15:55]	Grant Linden:	decisions are triaged by a process that includes Ben and his team - the team that I am a member of
[15:55]	Dusan Writer:	prizes are 800,000L
[15:55]	Jacek Antonelli is planning on entering at least one design :)
[15:55]	Dusan Writer:	awesome Jacek :)
[15:55]	Kippie Friedkin:	where do we submit designs, Dusan?
[15:56]	Shirley Marquez:	I'd like to see more thought go into that!
[15:56]	PulseBurst Flow:	OK. Grant..that's why I'm here..give you some input and feedback. ;-D
[15:56]	Dusan Writer:	submit them to me
[15:56]	Stephen Posaner:	I need to get to work on a cuple of ideas than
[15:56]	Stephen Posaner:	how do u want them
[15:56]	Dusan Writer:	let me give you the blog where the rules are posted
[15:56]	Stephen Posaner:	woor
[15:56]	Shirley Marquez:	I remember all the hype about Dazzle -- I was expecting something that was reimagined at least as much as the OnRez viewer was
[15:56]	Sheet Spotter:	Avatar motion may be more a physics questions. UI questions may relate more to how information is displayed.
[15:56]	Stephen Posaner:	woot
[15:56]	Dusan Writer:	http://dusanwriter.com/?p=557
[15:56]	Shirley Marquez:	and then all we got was new colors and icons
[15:56]	Dusan Writer:	yeah shirley thats the idea - get people to reimagine the viewer a little
[15:56]	Shirley Marquez:	well, not QUITE all
[15:57]	Dusan Writer:	have some fun with it, see what people come up with
[15:57]	Dusan Writer:	it's a totally non-commercial thing, just want everyone to have a chance to think about it, share ideas, and maybe get grant's attention with some new concepts
[15:57]	PulseBurst Flow:	Dusan, are you going to build a new viewer?
[15:57]	Dusan Writer:	i'm not saying no, but it would be ideal if it was a collaboration after
[15:58]	Dusan Writer:	i'd rather that if something brilliant comes of it that the Lindens think about it
[15:58]	Jacek Antonelli is also interested in actually implementing it :D
[15:58]	Dusan Writer:	but i am willing to consider implementing for sure
[15:58]	Raymond Linden is Offline
[15:58]	Dusan Writer:	awww cool Jacek
[15:58]	Shirley Marquez:	some ideas are relatively simple to do (reorganizing menus, for example, can be done by writing XML) -- some ideas might require coding in C
[15:58]	PulseBurst Flow:	++
[15:59]	Dusan Writer:	yeah for sure Shirley - i think the key is to see what ideas people come up with first
[15:59]	Dusan Writer:	the prize money just makes it interesting in the first phase and then we see what happens from there
[15:59]	Grant Linden:	My team appreciates feedback on UI issues in almost any constructive form
[16:00]	Jacek Antonelli:	Almost? :D *giggles*
[16:00]	Dusan Writer:	:)
[16:00]	Dusan Writer:	haha
[16:00]	Grant Linden:	well, no UI suggestions via Tattoo
[16:00]	Dusan Writer:	if anyone has any questions let me know please or post on the blog, and thanks for listening :)
[16:00]	Jacek Antonelli:	hahaha
[16:00]	Jacek Antonelli puts away the needle and ink :)
[16:00]	Grant Linden:	Thanks to every one who attended today
[16:00]	Shirley Marquez:	how about in the form of in-world tattoos?
[16:00]	Jacek Antonelli:	hehe
[16:01]	Jacek Antonelli:	Thanks for hosting, Grant!
[16:01]	Dusan Writer:	Grant, for a newbie thrown into hosting office hours you did a fine job :)
[16:01]	Sheet Spotter:	PulseBurst...You might want to look at this JIRA issue. There are likely others. https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-961
[16:01]	Shirley Marquez:	thank you, Grant!
[16:01]	Grant Linden:	thank you, Dusan
[16:02]	Grant Linden:	I look forward to talking more with this forum in'a0the future and ramping up on the Jira issues
[16:02]	Dusan Writer:	nice to meet you all - it's always so amazing how many great ideas and how much passion there is
[16:02]	Jacek Antonelli:	Take care, all!
[16:02]	Grant Linden:	take care everyone
[16:02]	Dusan Writer:	thanks again grant cya everyone
[16:02]	Stephen Posaner:	grant hope you get your own set of hrs soon or come to this one again }|}