User:Benjamin Linden/Office Hours/2008-07-03

Transcript of Rx's office hours:

[14:53]	McCabe Maxsted:	ahoy, malbers :)
[14:53]	Malbers Linden:	howdy McCabe
[14:53]	Malbers Linden:	hi catty and wizzy
[14:54]	Wizzy Vaher:	hi malbers :)
[14:54]	McCabe Maxsted:	it's a pirate party, you need an eyepatch!
[14:54]	Wizzy Vaher:	lol
[14:54]	Wizzy Vaher:	soz lots of im
[14:54]	Malbers Linden:	hhmmm, I don't have eyes (per se)
[14:54]	Catty Erde:	ahh
[14:54]	Wizzy Vaher:	no nor do i
[14:54]	Wizzy Vaher:	lol
[14:55]	Catty Erde:	yes its on the list of slsurveyor
[14:55]	Wizzy Vaher:	nice av
[14:55]	Catty Erde:	very
[14:56]	Malbers Linden:	thanks. can't take too much credit. I bought it.
[14:56]	Wizzy Vaher:	lol :)
[14:56]	Wizzy Vaher:	i turned myself into a raven a few months back
[14:56]	Catty Erde:	yes thats a good one
[14:56]	Catty Erde:	i like my magic book too
[14:56]	Wizzy Vaher:	was pickin feathers out weeks later
[14:57]	Malbers Linden:	oh, catty
[14:57]	Malbers Linden:	i didn't see your whole outfit before
[14:57]	Catty Erde:	yes
[14:57]	Malbers Linden:	very nice
[14:57]	Catty Erde:	oh lol ty
[14:57]	Malbers Linden:	(I was setting up stuff)
[14:57]	Catty Erde:	i have a hook and peg leg
[14:57]	Catty Erde:	but is for special occassions
[14:57]	Malbers Linden:	peg leg -- nice touch
[14:57]	McCabe Maxsted:	hehe
[14:58]	McCabe Maxsted:	is it going to be another presentation day?
[14:58]	Malbers Linden:	not necessarily
[14:58]	Malbers Linden:	just breaking out the slides in case people have questions
[14:58]	Malbers Linden:	following on from last week and hrte email thread
[14:59]	Malbers Linden:	did you havestuff to talk about?
[15:00]	McCabe Maxsted:	well I was at kate linden's OH yesterday and people were talking about the high learning curve for groups
[15:00]	McCabe Maxsted:	thought that might be fun
[15:00]	Malbers Linden:	hi kippie
[15:00]	McCabe Maxsted:	ahoy kipppie!
[15:01]	Kippie Friedkin:	Hi Malbers, McCabe....hi everyone
[15:01]	Malbers Linden:	cool. hang onto that topic and we can see
[15:01]	Wizzy Vaher:	hi kippie
[15:01]	Malbers Linden:	I don't have a good feel for if people have more notifications questions
[15:01]	McCabe Maxsted:	ahoy jacek, caitlyn, squirrel
[15:01]	Jacek Antonelli:	Ahoy!
[15:02]	Squirrel Wood:	Hullo
[15:02]	McCabe Maxsted:	pirate day at benjamin's, I say!
[15:02]	Jacek Antonelli:	Arrrr?
[15:02]	Malbers Linden:	jacek, squirrel, caitlyn
[15:02]	McCabe Maxsted:	that's the spirit
[15:02]	Caitlyn Clawtooth:	heyas
[15:02]	Squirrel Wood gave you rc_1.20.12 UI bug.
[15:03]	Jacek Antonelli:	/!stand Maldbers
[15:03]	Jacek Antonelli:	Whee, typos
[15:03]	McCabe Maxsted:	haha
[15:03]	Kippie Friedkin:	heh
[15:03]	Squirrel Wood has already found a ui "bug" in rc12 ^^
[15:03]	McCabe Maxsted:	oh yeah?
[15:04]	Squirrel Wood:	nothing dramatic
[15:04]	Jacek Antonelli:	Phew, glad to hear they got rid of that awful powers of two snapshot dimensions
[15:04]	Malbers Linden:	yeah squirell, what is it?
[15:05]	Squirrel Wood:	that screenshot
[15:05]	Squirrel Wood:	I gave ya
[15:05]	McCabe Maxsted:	yeah, definitely. That was bugging me to no end
[15:05]	McCabe Maxsted is waiting for it to rez
[15:05]	Kippie Friedkin:	ouch
[15:05]	Caitlyn Clawtooth:	is there a stand pose on these or something?
[15:05]	Squirrel Wood:	sit poses
[15:06]	Caitlyn Clawtooth:	does not look like a sit to me :)
[15:06]	Squirrel Wood:	asset server overload
[15:06]	Kippie Friedkin:	weirdness abounds
[15:06]	Squirrel Wood:	I see gray people
[15:06]	Jacek Antonelli:	I can't even wear my pirate outfit :(
[15:06]	McCabe Maxsted:	ahoy harleen!
[15:06]	Malbers Linden:	yeah, image not rezzing for me
[15:07]	Squirrel Wood:	180 pending downloads
[15:07]	McCabe Maxsted:	"cannot complete attachment" here, heh
[15:07]	Malbers Linden:	hey harleen
[15:07]	Harleen Gretzky:	HI Malbers
[15:09]	Malbers Linden:	so I wan't sure if people had more questions about Notifications from next week
[15:09]	Malbers Linden:	who, did we just loose a handful of people?
[15:09]	Jacek Antonelli:	Whee
[15:09]	Kippie Friedkin:	looks that way
[15:10]	Malbers Linden:	I've brought back my slides (which, i hope, will work this week)
[15:10]	Harleen Gretzky:	No McCabe vanished
[15:10]	Harleen Gretzky:	*now
[15:10]	Jacek Antonelli:	McCabe gtalked me to say he crashed too
[15:11]	Malbers Linden:	crashed? you mean SL crashes sometimes? impossible.
[15:11]	Kippie Friedkin:	lol
[15:11]	Jacek Antonelli:	hehe
[15:11]	Squirrel Wood:	rumors
[15:11]	Harleen Gretzky:	yeah, had to be McCabe's fault, lol
[15:11]	Jacek Antonelli:	Actually in this case, at least for me, it froze up.
[15:11]	Malbers Linden:	The new RC12?
[15:11]	Jacek Antonelli:	I suspect there's some bad bug in the viewer that handles invalid and/or timed-out asset requests rather ungracefully
[15:11]	Squirrel Wood:	So far RC12 behaves nicely for me
[15:12]	Malbers Linden:	Hi Fos
[15:12]	Squirrel Wood:	+ Second Life | 16,40% | | 26:23 | 4:12 | 1100 | 238.912 | 289.924 | 523.876 | 25 | Norm | 1.735 | 19 | 62 | 155 | Linden Lab | Not Signed | F:\Games\SecondLifeRC\SecondLifeReleaseCandidate.exe
[15:12]	Fos Dagger:	Hello Malbers.
[15:12]	Malbers Linden:	Squirell must be on one of those Windows box thingies
[15:13]	Malbers Linden:	and stored SL under "games". heresy.
[15:13]	Squirrel Wood:	hehe
[15:13]	Jacek Antonelli:	:O
[15:13]	Squirrel Wood:	Apparently "games" is a separate harddisk
[15:13]	Kippie Friedkin:	ha
[15:13]	Jacek Antonelli checks if she also has "Real Life" in the Games directory
[15:13]	Squirrel Wood:	linked to a folder instead of a drive letter :p
[15:14]	Malbers Linden:	so, thanks gain for a number of you that have written back about Notifications
[15:14]	Squirrel Wood:	+ setiathome_enhanced | | | 20:23 | | 87 | 43.116 | 41.360 | 69.988 | 4 | Idle | 55 | 0 | 1 | 5 | Space Sciences Laboratory | Not Signed | G:\BOINC\projects\setiathome.berkeley.edu\setiathome_5.27_windows_intelx86.exe
[15:14]	Jacek Antonelli:	wb McCabe
[15:14]	McCabe Maxsted:	w00t, thanks
[15:14]	Malbers Linden:	I appreciate al lthe thought you guys put into this
[15:15]	Malbers Linden:	Everyone seems to really like the new Notifications design
[15:15]	Malbers Linden:	EXCEPT for the focus part
[15:15]	Jacek Antonelli nods :)
[15:15]	Jacek Antonelli nods again ;)
[15:15]	Squirrel Wood:	It is functional
[15:15]	McCabe Maxsted:	hehe yes
[15:15]	Kippie Friedkin:	very much so
[15:15]	Squirrel Wood:	and well thought through
[15:16]	Malbers Linden:	was that a "Functional == good" or "functional == adequate"?
[15:16]	Squirrel Wood:	good ^^
[15:16]	Malbers Linden:	oh good.
[15:16]	Malbers Linden:	although I can handle suggestions
[15:16]	Malbers Linden:	the focus thing is hard
[15:17]	Squirrel Wood:	Do to the rest of the UI what you did there with the notifications :)
[15:17]	Jacek Antonelli:	hehe
[15:17]	Malbers Linden:	I can clearly see the benefits of the "dont move focus aroudn" arguments
[15:17]	Malbers Linden:	definitely being swayed
[15:17]	Squirrel Wood:	the don't move focus thing should be optional
[15:18]	Squirrel Wood:	because some people like it, others don't. and the vast majority will live with the default setting
[15:18]	Malbers Linden:	still worried about making sure people see the temporal and critical notifications
[15:18]	Malbers Linden:	oh, and here is this: http://lindens.lindenlab.com.s3.amazonaws.com/malbers/1-notif-while-notif-open.swf
[15:19]	McCabe Maxsted:	is this a new mockup?
[15:19]	Malbers Linden:	Hey Aimee
[15:19]	Malbers Linden:	Same as last week
[15:20]	Malbers Linden:	just re-posting URL for those who did not see it
[15:20]	Aimee Trescothick:	hey :)
[15:20]	McCabe Maxsted:	ahh okay
[15:20]	Malbers Linden:	I'm happy to move on if we've hit everyones questions about Notifications
[15:20]	McCabe Maxsted:	was wondering, too: what were your thoughts on different visual cues for temporal/crit notices, instead of relying on focus
[15:20]	Malbers Linden:	just didn't want people to feel like I wasn't taking hteir input seriously
[15:21]	Malbers Linden:	oh, whoop, Q from McCabe
[15:21]	Jacek Antonelli:	I think the tab popping up and the little chat bubble are enough for the temporal stuff (like TP requests) -- and the pulsing color with the clock countdown is a pretty good attention grabber, too
[15:21]	Malbers Linden:	yeah, a lot of the specific visual treatment is TBD
[15:21]	Malbers Linden:	these are just wireframes
[15:21]	Malbers Linden:	I worry a tiny bit that we might have too muc going on visually
[15:21]	Squirrel Wood:	hmm.. if the mouse is within the message area, don't refocus. otherwise do. if the message is critical
[15:22]	Squirrel Wood:	Hey Grant!
[15:22]	Malbers Linden:	hey Grant
[15:22]	Grant Linden:	Hello Hello
[15:22]	Kippie Friedkin:	Hi Grant :)
[15:22]	McCabe Maxsted is more worried about the menubar bursting. That sucker just keeps getitng more and more crowded
[15:22]	Jacek Antonelli:	One thing that I really like about the MacOS X dock is the way the icons jump up to get your attention :D A little bit of motion helpes
[15:22]	Malbers Linden:	squirrel, are you on the SL-UX alias?
[15:22]	Squirrel Wood:	or, what you could eventually do... split the message area in the middle and display the critical message on the right half
[15:23]	Squirrel Wood:	nope
[15:23]	Squirrel Wood:	I get too much mail to be able to handle more of them :(
[15:23]	Malbers Linden:	squirell, we tried something like splitting the messages in one round of designs
[15:23]	Malbers Linden:	it just took up so much screen real estate
[15:24]	Squirrel Wood:	other option: single line scroll text at the bottom of the window?=
[15:24]	Malbers Linden:	what do you think about putting an abbreviated hunk of text into the Chat History for new notifications?
[15:25]	Malbers Linden:	kinda the way "Friend Online" works now
[15:25]	Squirrel Wood:	good idea for critical notices
[15:25]	Malbers Linden:	yeah, maybe for critical/temporal
[15:25]	McCabe Maxsted:	that'd be cool for teleports, yeah
[15:25]	McCabe Maxsted:	with a link that'd popup the notice in focus
[15:25]	Kippie Friedkin:	That would be nice.
[15:26]	Malbers Linden:	good enhancement
[15:26]	Squirrel Wood:	will the link keep working if you closed the notice?
[15:26]	Malbers Linden:	as for the menu bar -- it is getting kinda crazy
[15:26]	Malbers Linden:	take you to the History perhaps?
[15:27]	Malbers Linden:	we had some ideas about reducing the Locations section of the menubar
[15:27]	Malbers Linden:	revamping it
[15:27]	Malbers Linden:	we could roll that into the Landmarks work Kippie's team has done
[15:27]	McCabe Maxsted:	like in the flash?
[15:27]	Jacek Antonelli:	That would be nice
[15:27]	Malbers Linden:	(sometime in the future)
[15:27]	Kippie Friedkin makes a note
[15:27]	Malbers Linden:	yeah, there's a hint of it in the Flash prototype
[15:28]	Malbers Linden:	The location would be a drawer
[15:28]	Squirrel Wood:	you could reduce the location part by displaying different information there on a timer, like, change every 5 to 10 seconds to show name, position, parcel info, ...
[15:28]	Malbers Linden:	drops down to show more info on demand
[15:28]	Kippie Friedkin:	Cool....a nice way to toggle the navbar.
[15:28]	Jacek Antonelli:	That would be very nice
[15:28]	McCabe Maxsted:	I'd like to take the status icons out of hte menu bar if possible
[15:29]	Malbers Linden:	you could lock it down if you REALLY care about that info (like if you were racing sailboats)
[15:29]	Squirrel Wood:	or just show the sim name there and when you click it "drops down" a list with additional information
[15:29]	Malbers Linden:	exactly Squirell
[15:29]	Malbers Linden:	which Statsu things, McCabe?
[15:29]	McCabe Maxsted:	I've really not found them useful as good cues unless i'm searching for htem specifically
[15:29]	McCabe Maxsted:	like no build, no push
[15:29]	Malbers Linden:	right -- we had those in the dropdown
[15:29]	McCabe Maxsted:	I'll try to build, realize I can't, then look up at hte menu bar to make sure SL‚Ñ¢ isn't freaking out and it's the parcel
[15:30]	Squirrel Wood:	hmm.... you could...
[15:30]	Squirrel Wood:	show these icons around the mouse cursor when you hover over land?
[15:30]	Malbers Linden:	wow interesting radical
[15:30]	Aimee Trescothick:	hmm
[15:30]	Malbers Linden:	I like the idea of putting more into the 3D world itself
[15:31]	Squirrel Wood:	basically.. show on demand when it makes sense
[15:31]	Aimee Trescothick:	would that show them for that bit of land rather than where you are though?
[15:31]	Aimee Trescothick:	could confuse people
[15:31]	Jacek Antonelli:	Hrmmm
[15:31]	Squirrel Wood:	this parcel / your parcel ?
[15:31]	Malbers Linden:	Not sure I love the idea but I like the brainstorming spirit
[15:32]	Squirrel Wood:	could have it as a layer on the ground texture that lights up when you hover the mouse over it and hold ctrl or something...
[15:32]	McCabe Maxsted:	I wouldn't mind having them over the chat bar, or just underneath the menu bar to bring more prominence. Could play around with different locations if we had a menubar.xml ;)
[15:32]	Fos Dagger:	How about showing restrictions on a mouseover of the Parcel info section of the top bar?
[15:33]	Malbers Linden:	ah, we did discuss huge freaking tooltips with this info
[15:33]	Malbers Linden:	perhaps the drawer AND the tooltip
[15:33]	Aimee Trescothick:	combine the no build icon into the build button?
[15:33]	Aimee Trescothick:	likewise for the no fly?
[15:33]	McCabe Maxsted:	how about changing the status icon with the overlay icon
[15:34]	McCabe Maxsted:	ahah
[15:34]	Jacek Antonelli:	They're already disabled if you can't do them where you're standing
[15:34]	Fos Dagger:	I'm thinking a drop down from the Menu bar more than a tooltip, if that's possible.
[15:34]	Jacek Antonelli:	e.g. build is dabled here
[15:34]	Aimee Trescothick:	yeah, that's what I mean
[15:34]	Cla Negulesco:	hello everyone
[15:34]	Squirrel Wood:	one suggestion regarding windlight... changes between different settings still are kicking in instantly.... they should fade into each other when part of the day cycle..
[15:34]	Aimee Trescothick:	just use the icons on the buttons to indicate it
[15:34]	McCabe Maxsted:	ahoy Cla
[15:34]	Malbers Linden:	ah, interesting. Nice detail to work out
[15:34]	Aimee Trescothick:	that just leaves no script and no push
[15:35]	Cla Negulesco:	ahoy McCabe :)
[15:35]	McCabe Maxsted:	yeah, disabling the button isn't a very good visual cue
[15:35]	Squirrel Wood:	if you cannot build, gray out the build menu ?
[15:35]	Cla Negulesco:	bY :)
[15:35]	Fos Dagger:	I think that already happens?
[15:35]	Squirrel Wood:	or go the friends online approach and list the status in the chat history
[15:35]	Jacek Antonelli:	There are other icons too, though -- land for sale, health enabled, voice enabled, etc.
[15:35]	Aimee Trescothick:	there's stuff in the build tools that you sometimes need even with build disabled though
[15:36]	Jacek Antonelli:	There are a lot of icons....
[15:36]	Malbers Linden:	there are a ton of options
[15:36]	McCabe Maxsted:	I like that the mystitool does tat
[15:36]	Aimee Trescothick:	ah true, I was forgetting all the others
[15:36]	Jacek Antonelli:	I think the simplest way is to put them in this hypothetical drawer
[15:36]	McCabe Maxsted:	when you tp into a new parcel, it tells you flags like damage enabled, etc
[15:36]	Malbers Linden:	that was one of the reasons to put them in the drawer
[15:36]	Squirrel Wood:	Enabled on this parcel: build, scripts. flying, voice chat, ...
[15:36]	Squirrel Wood:	Disabled on this parcel: xxx, yyy, ...
[15:36]	Malbers Linden:	we also wanted to keep all the icons
[15:36]	Malbers Linden:	right now, it is just hte negative ones
[15:36]	Malbers Linden:	no fly, no build.....
[15:37]	Jacek Antonelli:	Yeah, I like the idea of integrating it into the location info drawer
[15:37]	Jacek Antonelli:	I had a question about notifications -- how do the Friends Online / Offline notices fit into this?
[15:38]	Malbers Linden:	there are good ways to leverage these ideas (someday in the future) with the Landmark work by Kippie et al.
[15:38]	Malbers Linden:	McCabe, you had something about Groups to discuss?
[15:38]	Malbers Linden:	from someone else's office hours
[15:39]	Jacek Antonelli:	Ah. Plug the JIRA! :D
[15:39]	McCabe Maxsted:	ah yeah, yesterday at kate's there was some interesting discussion about how groups are overwhelming to newbies; they don't understand what they're for, how to use them, what all the options mean, etc
[15:39]	McCabe Maxsted:	hehe yes!
[15:40]	Jacek Antonelli:	Ah, a different group-related thing :)
[15:40]	McCabe Maxsted:	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-8024 but related :)
[15:40]	Malbers Linden:	much in the same way Friends is used in various ways, Groups are used in various ways too
[15:40]	Jacek Antonelli:	aye
[15:40]	Malbers Linden:	they are overloaded
[15:40]	Grant Linden:	It is interesting how we combine "groups" as social network and broadcast channel and land permissions
[15:41]	Malbers Linden:	exactly
[15:41]	Grant Linden:	"It's a floor wax and dessert topping"
[15:41]	McCabe Maxsted:	yeah, it's really unique (or at least haven't stumbled across anything like it)
[15:41]	Jacek Antonelli:	yeah. Interesting... and often frustrating. ~_~
[15:41]	Xavier Irwin:	its a good combination, but if newbies do not understand then perhaps something can be improved / profile raised during orientation
[15:42]	Jacek Antonelli:	(See also: group chat spam; 25 group limit; group land permissions; etc. etc. :D )
[15:42]	Squirrel Wood:	25 is not enough :p
[15:42]	Fos Dagger:	Agreed.
[15:42]	Xavier Irwin:	it already exists in orientation, but its profile is lower then say using the find and map facilities
[15:42]	McCabe Maxsted:	one idea I've had is to have basic/advanced group properties.Create a simplified version of groups that can be presented to newbies, but without stuff like voting or abilities since they prolly won't use those right away
[15:43]	Grant Linden:	I was discussing this with Developers last week
[15:43]	Grant Linden:	"groups Light"
[15:43]	Squirrel Wood:	just the absolute minimalist basics
[15:43]	Jacek Antonelli:	Minimalist for which purpose?
[15:44]	Squirrel Wood:	to make them not overwhelming
[15:44]	Malbers Linden:	which purpose are they used for mainly?
[15:44]	McCabe Maxsted:	yeah, the basic functionality. All the suff you'd need to have access in say your first month at SL‚Ñ¢
[15:44]	Xavier Irwin:	social association/networking and land management IMO
[15:44]	Jacek Antonelli:	I mean -- groups are used for so many different purposes. Which one is the "basic" one?
[15:44]	Malbers Linden:	so, the social parts (but not the land management parts.
[15:45]	Malbers Linden:	do we deactivate the land parts if the group doesn't have land?
[15:45]	Grant Linden:	different UIs based on the task set might make more sense
[15:45]	Squirrel Wood:	chat and notifications I'd say
[15:45]	McCabe Maxsted:	my experience with groups was social parts first; only ever worrieda bout land when I created a group of my own
[15:45]	Fos Dagger:	Groups are a tool, hard to explain what arc-welder is 'for'...
[15:45]	Gia Burnstein:	hello?
[15:45]	McCabe Maxsted:	ahoy gia
[15:45]	Malbers Linden:	hi gia
[15:45]	Squirrel Wood:	groups need more roles too
[15:46]	McCabe Maxsted:	you mean autohide it, malbers?
[15:46]	Malbers Linden:	sure
[15:46]	Malbers Linden who is far from a Groups expert
[15:46]	McCabe Maxsted:	hehe
[15:46]	Squirrel Wood:	mayhaps a "newbie" role which automatically hides the advanced stuff if you're in it ?
[15:46]	Jacek Antonelli:	Hrmm. I suppose that even for groups where land access is important -- the members don't generally worry about that, except for activating/deactivating your group tag
[15:46]	Fos Dagger:	Or a button like More >>> in the edit window?
[15:47]	Malbers Linden:	basic design - only provide relevant functionality
[15:47]	Squirrel Wood:	show//hide options based on the permissions of the roles you are in ?
[15:47]	Malbers Linden:	often hard to figure out what is "relevant"
[15:47]	McCabe Maxsted:	that's been my experience too, jacek. They learn they just need to have their group tag active, and that's it
[15:47]	Malbers Linden:	sure squirrel
[15:47]	Jacek Antonelli:	Just to be clear -- we're talking about the complexity of the group management floater?
[15:47]	McCabe Maxsted:	yeah
[15:47]	Malbers Linden:	that's what I thought
[15:48]	Annaleigh Bravin:	wow.....sounds complicated
[15:48]	Jacek Antonelli:	"Group Information"
[15:48]	Jacek Antonelli:	ok
[15:48]	McCabe Maxsted:	it's really a lot to through at newbies
[15:48]	Malbers Linden:	hi annaleigh
[15:48]	McCabe Maxsted:	throw
[15:48]	Annaleigh Bravin:	hello
[15:48]	Jacek Antonelli:	It is a lot. It's a lot even for me, lol
[15:48]	Fos Dagger:	Check what's relevant, see what people use in Groups in their first 60 days. Assuming the viewer is capable of collecting that data.
[15:49]	Jacek Antonelli:	5 top-level tabs, and each tab has at least 2 sections in it... @_@
[15:49]	McCabe Maxsted:	:) yet another good use for a pilot program to just follow people around. The viewer can follow all the clicks you make
[15:49]	Jacek Antonelli:	At least it's more logically organized than the menus :D
[15:49]	McCabe Maxsted:	hehe
[15:50]	Malbers Linden:	nice plug by Jacek for menu reorg.....
[15:50]	Annaleigh Bravin:	wow im new at this......am I sitting on a cat?
[15:50]	Jacek Antonelli:	hee. You're sitting on Squirrel :D
[15:50]	Malbers Linden:	I think you are sitting on Squirrell
[15:50]	Aimee Trescothick:	I think the menus should reorganise themselves randomly each time you log in
[15:50]	Annaleigh Bravin:	haha fair enough
[15:50]	Malbers Linden:	they don't now?
[15:50]	Jacek Antonelli:	lol Aimee
[15:50]	McCabe Maxsted:	hahahaha
[15:50]	Xavier Irwin:	u might want to consider other improvements to groups whilst your at it, there have been some requests on JIRA for over a year now
[15:50]	Aimee Trescothick:	like shops do to make sure you get to know everything in the store
[15:51]	Jacek Antonelli:	Here's an idea to simplify things: 1 menu, which displays 10 items at a time. Every time you open it, a random 10 items appears. >:D
[15:51]	Jacek Antonelli:	Muahahaha!
[15:51]	Kippie Friedkin:	lol
[15:51]	Fos Dagger:	I so want that.
[15:51]	Gia Burnstein:	hey!
[15:51]	Malbers Linden:	you stole my best idea Jacek!
[15:52]	Jacek Antonelli:	lol
[15:52]	McCabe Maxsted:	XD
[15:52]	Squirrel Wood:	better yet: Hide the menu somewhere on the screen. If you find it, it opens once, then hides somewhere else
[15:52]	Jacek Antonelli:	lol
[15:52]	Aimee Trescothick:	hmmm, now there's an idea for Dusan's competition, come up with a UI so evil everyone we be glad of the one they've already got :D
[15:52]	Jacek Antonelli:	hee
[15:52]	McCabe Maxsted laughs
[15:52]	Jacek Antonelli:	(Speaking of the competition -- the finalists have been announced :O)
[15:52]	Squirrel Wood:	not hard. just flip it downside up
[15:53]	Squirrel Wood:	and rotate 90 degrees
[15:53]	Fos Dagger:	I am happy with the one we have. Just could be better :)
[15:53]	McCabe Maxsted:	*wonders if he made it*
[15:53]	Jacek Antonelli:	Shall I keep you in suspense? :D
[15:53]	Squirrel Wood:	what about fly-out tabs on either side of the window/screen ?
[15:53]	Aimee Trescothick:	to the outside?
[15:53]	Squirrel Wood:	that auto-hide when not in use
[15:54]	Aimee Trescothick:	I want menus that pop out the side of the monitor
[15:54]	Malbers Linden:	we have toyed with the idea of drawers for almost all functionality
[15:54]	Aimee Trescothick:	would save a lot of screen space
[15:54]	Malbers Linden:	Brainstorming
[15:54]	Jacek Antonelli:	Drawers are nice. :)
[15:54]	Squirrel Wood:	you touch the side of the window and in comes a menu
[15:54]	Malbers Linden:	we'd like to always have as much of hte 3d world viewable as possible
[15:54]	Jacek Antonelli has a lovely drawer instead of the bottom toolbar in her design ^_^
[15:54]	Malbers Linden:	seeing 3d stuff is kinda the idea here
[15:54]	Squirrel Wood:	drawers would be top if people could organize what goes where
[15:55]	Kippie Friedkin:	agreed
[15:55]	McCabe Maxsted:	single line toolbar = soooo nice
[15:55]	Kippie Friedkin:	I also like task-based drawers - building, chatting, exploring
[15:55]	Malbers Linden:	(contentious question) -- any thoughts on Office 2008's ribbon?
[15:55]	Jacek Antonelli:	yeah
[15:55]	Squirrel Wood:	Mayhaps do a bar like in office 2007 which displays only the relevant info and tasks ?
[15:55]	Squirrel Wood:	ribbon. yes.
[15:56]	Jacek Antonelli:	Not familiar with the ribbon. I have not heard good things about it, though...
[15:56]	Malbers Linden:	(ah, great squirell and jellyfish minds think alike)
[15:56]	McCabe Maxsted:	hehe
[15:56]	Malbers Linden:	i don't have experience with it personally
[15:56]	Squirrel Wood:	basic info is shown right on screen whereas advanced info requires a click or two more
[15:56]	Malbers Linden:	have heard conflicting things
[15:57]	Malbers Linden:	that sounds reasonable
[15:57]	Jacek Antonelli:	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ribbon_(computing)
[15:57]	McCabe Maxsted:	malbers did you see my comment in http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-7060 ?
[15:57]	Squirrel Wood:	If you apply common sense and basic office knowledge you can work with the ribbon just fine
[15:57]	Malbers Linden:	eeek McCabe, no I haven't -- i'll go look
[15:57]	Malbers Linden:	that's the menu reorg stuff, right?
[15:58]	Squirrel Wood:	if you are 95 and think of computers as aliens from outter space - then the ribbon may be too complex for you already.
[15:58]	McCabe Maxsted:	yup
[15:58]	McCabe Maxsted:	wait, they're not?
[15:58]	Squirrel Wood:	for good measure I'll throw in VWR-27 :p
[15:58]	Jacek Antonelli:	Before we run out of time -- Malbers, is there a plan for how the Friends Online/Offline notices fit into the new notifications scheme?
[15:58]	Malbers Linden:	hope to remove it from the bottom right
[15:59]	Malbers Linden:	just more annoying than useful
[15:59]	Malbers Linden:	plan on keeping it in the Chat notice area
[15:59]	Malbers Linden:	the grey bubbles or the Chat History
[15:59]	Jacek Antonelli:	okay
[15:59]	Malbers Linden:	probably some kind of preference for it
[16:00]	Jacek Antonelli:	Sounds reasonable enough
[16:00]	Fos Dagger:	Ouch, I notice the online/offline bubble, whereas I often ignore chat when working...
[16:00]	Malbers Linden:	fos, is that with Communicate window open or closed?
[16:00]	Fos Dagger:	Closed.
[16:00]	McCabe Maxsted:	what about the debit permissions notice?
[16:01]	Squirrel Wood:	debit perms MUST be different... color or otherwise
[16:01]	Squirrel Wood:	they are too easily abused if not
[16:01]	Malbers Linden:	arg. I gotta run to my next meeting
[16:01]	Squirrel Wood:	eep
[16:01]	Grant Linden nods
[16:01]	McCabe Maxsted:	aww
[16:01]	Squirrel Wood:	Have a grrrreat long weekend!
[16:01]	McCabe Maxsted:	kk, goodluck, don't fall asleep
[16:01]	Malbers Linden:	everyone have a nice 4th (if in the US)
[16:02]	McCabe Maxsted:	happy fourth to ya
[16:02]	Fos Dagger:	Woot.
[16:02]	Harleen Gretzky:	ty Malbers
[16:02]	Malbers Linden:	or a couple days ago for Canada day
[16:02]	Grant Linden:	take care everyone
[16:02]	Aimee Trescothick:	and the rest of us get a horrible one?
[16:02]	Jacek Antonelli:	Thanks for hosting, Malbers!
[16:02]	Aimee Trescothick:	:D
[16:02]	Squirrel Wood:	cyas
[16:02]	Harleen Gretzky:	tc Grant
[16:02]	Malbers Linden:	oh crap, have a nice weekend
[16:02]	Jacek Antonelli:	hehe
[16:02]	Aimee Trescothick:	bye :)
[16:02]	Caitlyn Clawtooth:	byers!
[16:02]	Squirrel Wood:	^^