User:Benjamin Linden/Office Hours/2008-10-15

Transcript of Benjamin Linden's office hours:

[15:08]	Grant Linden:	This week we have a special guest, Coco Linden. Coco is the lead on the Featurettes initiative. I invited her to join us and let us know about what she has been working on.
[15:08]	Coco Linden:	i was just now recommending the "woodlands creatures" episode to a coworker but then didn't remember the name. anyone know if that's right or what it is?
[15:08]	Coco Linden:	shal we start?
[15:08]	Grant Linden:	yes please
[15:08]	Coco Linden:	yes, hello all
[15:08]	Charlette Proto:	can you explain the scope of the term Featurettes please
[15:08]	Coco Linden:	i'm a UI dev for about 1 1/2 years here now
[15:09]	Coco Linden:	started fixing bugs and other cleanup work in the code
[15:09]	Coco Linden:	lately i've been championing this initiave we call "featurettes"
[15:09]	Coco Linden:	these are like they sound: smallish feature-like things
[15:09]	Charlette Proto:	modularity? or am I off the track
[15:09]	Coco Linden:	small, visible improvements
[15:10]	Charlette Proto:	OK
[15:10]	Coco Linden:	modularity was part of the clean-up work i did under the hoods before this
[15:10]	Coco Linden:	but now i'm focused on small polish
[15:10]	Coco Linden:	features and fixes that are visible and can be done in a day or so
[15:11]	Charlette Proto:	so tagging of inventory items for example could be a featurette, or would that be too broad a problem
[15:11]	Coco Linden:	lots of other devs pitch in when and i wrangle the branch
[15:12]	Malbers Linden:	Tagging (as a general problem) is probably too big an effort to be a Featurette
[15:12]	Coco Linden:	there was a big crack for a while into which small problems would often go unresolved for long times while all the big stuff kept going along
[15:12]	Jacek Antonelli nods
[15:12]	Coco Linden:	i'm devoted to fixing the easy stuff that makes big differences
[15:12]	Squirrel Wood:	things like fixing typos and/or changing ui colors would count as featurettes?
[15:12]	Charlette Proto:	how about shotcuts (aliases) in the inv instead of copies and moving of items
[15:13]	Coco Linden:	open-source patch incorporation is a big part of that too
[15:13]	Charlette Proto:	OK now I get it bug/fix
[15:13]	Coco Linden:	inveotory short-cuts/soft links would be great but unfortunately would not be a small effort
[15:13]	Coco Linden:	thumbnails too
[15:13]	Malbers Linden:	Coco, I also like tothink of it as things that you can normally accomplish yourself (w/o a lot of other Eng in the process). Right?
[15:14]	Trinity Coulter:	how about an offline method of inventory management, and the ability to easily put images with the inventory objects
[15:14]	Squirrel Wood:	allowing .txt files to be uploaded into notecards? that a featurette ?
[15:14]	Vent Sinatra:	(as notecard or scripts)
[15:14]	Coco Linden:	malbers: pretty much though mostly i tend to look at the amount of time it will take
[15:14]	Charlette Proto:	for preview thumbnails I'm always thinking of live render instead of aditional files (too many)
[15:14]	Coco Linden:	squirrel: that sounds perfect
[15:15]	Squirrel Wood:	^^
[15:15]	Squirrel Wood:	helps when you have to update dozens of notecards
[15:15]	Grant Linden:	Recently Coco did some great improvements to the Becons UI
[15:15]	McCabe Maxsted:	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-1703 for notecard upload/downloading, btw
[15:15]	Grant Linden:	Beacons even
[15:15]	Coco Linden:	thanks grant: yes, that was a huge pain point for new users
[15:16]	Coco Linden:	i'd been bitten by that myself as a resident and it was terribly disturbing to see red patches everywhere and no idea how to turn that off
[15:16]	McCabe Maxsted nods. I've been following that. finally nice to see it addressed, I've been gathering the case for it for a while now
[15:16]	Coco Linden:	the beacons floater now fixes that because beacons are turned off wen you close the floater
[15:17]	Coco Linden:	i also did a bunch of featurettes improving the snapshots floater
[15:17]	Charlette Proto:	I have a Featurette in mind; the timestamp of IMs and notices should be generated from the origination time not reading as it is now
[15:17]	Coco Linden:	i also did the highlight-friends-in-the-mini-map feature soon to ship
[15:18]	Kerry Giha:	I like the new options with the snapshots BTW.
[15:18]	Coco Linden:	ty kerry!
[15:18]	McCabe Maxsted:	:)
[15:18]	Aimee Trescothick:	^^
[15:18]	Aimee Trescothick has yellow friends :)
[15:18]	Coco Linden:	snapshots functionality is very important and had gone unloved for a long time
[15:18]	McCabe Maxsted:	hehe
[15:18]	Aimee Trescothick:	not everyday you can say that's a good thing
[15:18]	Coco Linden:	:-)
[15:18]	Q Linden:	I like to think of Featurettes as those things that are new behavior (as opposed to bugs), user-visible, and small enough not to require multiple devs or multiple weeks
[15:19]	Coco Linden:	yes, that sums it up well, q
[15:19]	Coco Linden:	btw, q is the manager of the sustaining group in which i and a couple of other devs work
[15:19]	Charlette Proto:	what about the timestamps of IM, small fix and useless as it is
[15:19]	Squirrel Wood:	a day to code, a day to test, but no more? ^^
[15:20]	Q Linden:	squirrel, it's not quite that rigid
[15:20]	Coco Linden:	some things take a week or even more
[15:20]	Vent Sinatra:	ok, supresse music on voice is probably big huh ?:)
[15:20]	Coco Linden:	the snapshot PNG/JPG feature took over a week even though I started with a functional patch
[15:20]	Malbers Linden:	sometimes there are annoying UI issues to hammer out
[15:20]	Charlette Proto:	hehe I do music on voice as it is
[15:20]	Coco Linden:	it required a lot of code clean up to properly support
[15:20]	Vent Sinatra:	lol charlette
[15:21]	Q Linden:	charlette, one other thing is that if it has significant server-side component it frequently can't be a featurette anymore
[15:21]	Trinity Coulter:	can you bring back the "Tools" option on the menu?
[15:21]	Coco Linden:	yes, everything seems connected to everything else sometimes
[15:21]	Squirrel Wood:	try 1.21 RC5 for tools
[15:21]	Coco Linden:	i think the tools menu hiding was reverted, no?
[15:21]	McCabe Maxsted:	yup
[15:21]	McCabe Maxsted:	reverted in 1.21
[15:21]	Jacek Antonelli:	So what sort of featurettes are in the pipeline these days?
[15:21]	Charlette Proto:	for me timestamps on IM are significant and currently useless
[15:22]	Charlette Proto:	I know when I read them but interestred in when they were sent
[15:22]	Malbers Linden:	Charlette -- because the timestamps are not in your local time zone?
[15:22]	Kerry Giha:	One little think I miss is with the Space Navigator the little flycam text that tell you if it is on or not. A nice featurette would be to put an Icon or something somewhere to do the same thing but not have it appear in snapshots. It could even appear in the bar at the top.
[15:22]	Coco Linden:	well jacek: for myself, i'm currently working on a way to express permissions preferences to apply to new content uploads
[15:22]	Charlette Proto:	nope they reporesent the time I open IM not the time it was posted
[15:22]	Vent Sinatra:	no kerry!! movie makers hate that text
[15:23]	McCabe Maxsted:	there's a patch for that on the jira kerry
[15:23]	Vent Sinatra:	ah right
[15:23]	Aimee Trescothick fixed the flycam indicator, I think that's in QA somewhere
[15:23]	Coco Linden:	i've also recently done some work with a camera angle prefernence and control and other small stuff
[15:23]	McCabe Maxsted:	oh? are we finally getting workable avatar camera controls?
[15:23]	Vent Sinatra:	there are still some buggets with the flycam/navigator....
[15:23]	Squirrel Wood:	any form of indicator should be optional
[15:23]	Charlette Proto:	small fix I'm assuming and a big difference to user
[15:23]	Kerry Giha:	oh I will have to check on it.
[15:24]	Kerry Giha:	Right now I can't tell if it is on or not untill I move.
[15:24]	Coco Linden:	not flycam prefs myself, vent, though others have worked on that i know
[15:24]	Jacek Antonelli:	Tofu is working on integrating the flycam button, I heard.
[15:24]	Jacek Antonelli:	As well as other joystick/flycam related stuff
[15:24]	McCabe Maxsted:	love the camera in sl... it's great for everything non-avatar related....
[15:24]	Aimee Trescothick nods, he's working on a bundle of my flycam patches
[15:24]	Charlette Proto:	that would be nice
[15:24]	Vent Sinatra:	coca, i was just checking that. Dont think everything is in jira what ive found. WIll check
[15:24]	Kerry Giha:	nice
[15:25]	Coco Linden:	i see some pjira contributor names i recognize here and i want to encourage everyone to participate there
[15:25]	Charlette Proto:	another small thing would be to keep (scroll) the selected inventory item into view at all times
[15:26]	Squirrel Wood:	right now sound uploads are restricted to ten second snippets... how about allowing bigger uploads and automagically cutting the sounds into 10s chunks ?
[15:26]	Squirrel Wood:	or would the RIAA complain about such a thing?
[15:26]	Charlette Proto:	at the moment they tend to disapear out of view by thenselves
[15:26]	Vent Sinatra:	that would be a good one charlette
[15:26]	Coco Linden:	squirell: i don't know the issues with sound/animation content limits
[15:26]	Charlette Proto:	I'v geot a gesture with a 60 sec sound and want to upload those myself too
[15:26]	Trinity Coulter:	how about allowing us to make offline snapshots of clothing that we can then use as a cache to preview stuff
[15:27]	Vent Sinatra:	keeping the searched item in focus when you remove the search
[15:27]	Coco Linden:	charlette: we do have code to keep inventory selections in view, used especially with new inventory. it could be called in other situations too
[15:27]	Charlette Proto:	live preview because we have too many items
[15:27]	Charlette Proto:	great for the selected inv items then
[15:28]	Trinity Coulter:	and the ability to add descriptions to no-mod items
[15:28]	Coco Linden:	trinity: that's the sort of thing that i want to see as thumbnails in inventory
[15:28]	McCabe Maxsted is curious, are featurettes giong to be a permanent viewer improvement strategy?
[15:28]	Coco Linden:	seems dumb to have a big closet that you can't even look into
[15:28]	Trinity Coulter:	because BC_kl_82_rd isn't clearly a red pump
[15:28]	Charlette Proto:	another small thing would be to display the name/trigger of gesture in the owners chat history
[15:28]	Charlette Proto:	some trigger from odd words and are used accidentally
[15:29]	Coco Linden:	mccabe: i indend to do this work for as long as they'll let me
[15:29]	McCabe Maxsted:	hehe :)
[15:29]	Charlette Proto:	also all gestures deactivate functions would be useful
[15:29]	Trinity Coulter:	also how about presets like mobile phones have... where you could have "meeting" mode as a preset, "chat" mode, etc, and the graphics settings are saved for that 'mode?
[15:30]	Coco Linden:	trinity: editable descriptions for no-mod sounds reasonable though it'd need to be vetted widely. please propose it in PJIRA and see what others think
[15:30]	Trinity Coulter:	i don't like pjira :)
[15:30]	Charlette Proto:	modality is a very big issue
[15:30]	Q Linden:	mccabe: featurettes is one of the three parts of the sustaining group's charter
[15:30]	Q Linden:	along with bug fixes (viewer maintenance) and open source patches
[15:30]	Trinity Coulter:	how about a simple 'featurette' suggestion form for non-techy people?
[15:30]	Jacek Antonelli:	Editing the description field on no-mod items would not be good -- some items use that to store settings and small bits of data :\
[15:30]	Coco Linden:	trinity: we all struggle with jira but it is the tool we use and not likely to change soon
[15:31]	Jacek Antonelli:	Maybe a second field, though
[15:31]	Charlette Proto:	I'm a design theorist not a tech
[15:31]	Q Linden:	trinity, we have to see this stuff in pjira if you want any hope of action. none of us love it but it's what we've got
[15:31]	Vent Sinatra:	ok, if we are talking really simple..... how about better mouseovers for the preference options. Especially in the graphics sections
[15:31]	Trinity Coulter:	yes, but you are missing out on a HUGE part of the SL population, which is less technical by only using athe complex interface to jira
[15:31]	Charlette Proto:	certainy giving you the user not programmer needs
[15:31]	McCabe Maxsted:	random question: what issue tracker would you guys prefer?
[15:31]	Coco Linden:	vent: great idea
[15:31]	Trinity Coulter:	jira = techy... 90% of people aren't
[15:31]	Aimee Trescothick:	that gets into the realm of database work though noyt just viewer when you're adding fields, unless you store it locally
[15:32]	Vent Sinatra:	"Disabling this item might prevent crashes"
[15:32]	Trinity Coulter:	so your only getting suggestions from the techy crowd then
[15:32]	Vent Sinatra:	But what does it dooooooo
[15:32]	Q Linden:	mccabe: that's close to religion :)
[15:32]	Trinity Coulter:	issue tracker is a techy thing.... like i said, most people in SL aren't techy
[15:32]	Jacek Antonelli:	There's an unofficial GetSatisfaction site for SL, but I don't think any Lindens browse it.
[15:33]	Jacek Antonelli:	It's... well, I don't think much of anyone browses it
[15:33]	Coco Linden:	obviously all of u have some really great ideas and i'm happy to talk about any of them but let's be clear that any followup to make them happen will need to come through pjira. it's not a totally delightful tool but it's not terrible either.
[15:33]	Jacek Antonelli:	http://getsatisfaction.com/secondlife
[15:34]	Trinity Coulter:	i've suggested several times about making a simpler form for simple suggestions that would put stuff in the jira
[15:34]	Q Linden:	Yeah, Jacek -- but that site actually has negative value. It distributes information that should be concentrated.
[15:34]	Trinity Coulter:	why should people need to know what "environment" they have?
[15:34]	Coco Linden:	there's definitely a usability hurdle involved but we also need participants dedicated enough to follow-through and manage their suggestuions and not just "throw them over the wall".
[15:35]	Trinity Coulter:	well you can't automated everything... at some point, someone will hve to sift
[15:35]	Coco Linden:	trinity: Help > About gives you the settings that you can simply copy without even understanding
[15:35]	Vent Sinatra:	ok, how about a summary of known 'issues' in laymens term, so at least you know 'this is known, and being worked on'
[15:36]	Charlette Proto:	yes
[15:36]	Trinity Coulter:	i'm sure some people would volunteer to sift issues, since many do now
[15:36]	Coco Linden:	vent: there are pre-canned queries on the main page for popular issues, etc.
[15:36]	Charlette Proto:	that is the basis of sifting usually
[15:36]	Vent Sinatra:	coco, on jira ?
[15:36]	Trinity Coulter:	there's no substitute for smart people sifting using their brains
[15:36]	Squirrel Wood:	people in general are unwilling to bother themselves with "techy-geeky" stuff. I have one person at work who cannot be bothered to get used to SAVING a word document before closing word. You know.. click that little disk symbol...
[15:36]	Q Linden:	https://jira.secondlife.com/secure/Dashboard.jspa
[15:36]	Coco Linden:	trinity: there are already lots of helpful residents and lindens who tag related items, create meta items, etc.
[15:36]	McCabe Maxsted wonders what the most usable issue tracker would be, then. Surely someone must have done some studies...
[15:37]	Charlette Proto:	hehe
[15:37]	Q Linden:	Look at the left, there's a link that says "VWR" -- open issues, popular issues, etc.
[15:37]	Trinity Coulter:	it seems like it would be easy to make a few less intimidating forms that dump the information into the Jira
[15:37]	Q Linden:	mccabe, bug trackers have a tendency to grow features because the dev team wants them, but the usability drops over time
[15:37]	Trinity Coulter:	instead of using the jira directly
[15:37]	Q Linden:	Trinity, that would just lead to massive duplication
[15:38]	Trinity Coulter:	yes, but that is only because you need human people to review it
[15:38]	Trinity Coulter:	you can't automate everything
[15:38]	Coco Linden:	right q. it takes a bit of dedication to not just propose an idea but to defend and lobby for it.
[15:38]	Vent Sinatra:	qlinden,for many thats already hard to find
[15:38]	Q Linden:	I'm not sure what you're suggesting, trinity?
[15:38]	Charlette Proto:	how about a search through existing issues for words in the prob description and suggesting the hits to the user
[15:39]	Coco Linden:	if a really good and easy to implement idea does pop-up, we'll often jump on them, but those are rare
[15:39]	Trinity Coulter:	you could make the Jira more friendly to use, Q
[15:39]	Trinity Coulter:	that's really all i'm saying
[15:39]	Q Linden:	that's the search box in the corner of EVERY jira page
[15:39]	Q Linden:	trinity, i actually agree
[15:39]	Vent Sinatra:	shouldnt even be in jira
[15:39]	Vent Sinatra:	to be honest
[15:39]	Trinity Coulter:	have searches that don't have loads of techy jargon, and a simpler form to add stuff
[15:39]	Q Linden:	believe me, I have a serious case of jira reluctance
[15:39]	Vent Sinatra:	'known issues' somewhere on secondlife.com
[15:39]	Charlette Proto:	I mean automaticall searching for terms in new submissions to see if it already exists
[15:39]	Trinity Coulter:	AND why not build that into the Viewer partly?
[15:39]	Q Linden:	but it's a 3rd party product we only control a little bit
[15:40]	Squirrel Wood points out that Torley Linden has made a very good video tutorial how to report something on pjira
[15:40]	Trinity Coulter:	since you want environment from the Viewer
[15:40]	Charlette Proto:	yes viewer is best
[15:40]	Vent Sinatra:	torley linden is a hero
[15:40]	Charlette Proto:	hehe
[15:40]	Coco Linden:	ty squirrel: torley's pjira tips rock
[15:40]	Charlette Proto:	YouTube is my church
[15:40]	McCabe Maxsted:	it used to be trinity, they removed it
[15:41]	McCabe Maxsted:	there's an interesting discussion about it in a jira, actually, although there hasn't been any word on it in ages
[15:41]	Q Linden:	Not that I don't want to hear useful suggestions, but I imagine that an inviewer suggestion box would be filled with 300000 posts a day of "less lag!"
[15:41]	Trinity Coulter:	lol
[15:41]	Vent Sinatra:	lol
[15:41]	Q Linden:	that would obscure any useful suggestion
[15:41]	Vent Sinatra:	'my viewer crashes'
[15:41]	Aimee Trescothick:	"Free Lindens for all"
[15:41]	Aimee Trescothick:	"I want a pony"
[15:41]	Vent Sinatra:	'free sex'
[15:41]	Charlette Proto:	hehe make them type in JIRA instead of adding attachments
[15:41]	Vent Sinatra:	uhm
[15:41]	Vent Sinatra:	forget that
[15:42]	Coco Linden:	the bottom line is that for better or worse, this is what we have to work with
[15:42]	Q Linden:	Thanks, all, I've got to run
[15:42]	Aimee Trescothick:	bye Q
[15:42]	McCabe Maxsted:	take care q
[15:42]	Coco Linden:	thanks q!
[15:42]	Vent Sinatra:	bye Q
[15:42]	Grant Linden:	thanks Q
[15:42]	Q Linden:	bye
[15:42]	Kerry Giha:	Thanks Q
[15:42]	Charlette Proto:	bye Q
[15:43]	Coco Linden:	ok, now that my boss is gone.....
[15:43]	Grant Linden:	heh
[15:43]	Vent Sinatra:	lol
[15:43]	Aimee Trescothick:	LOL
[15:43]	Charlette Proto:	Hug a Linden
[15:43]	Squirrel Wood:	;)
[15:43]	Jacek Antonelli:	hehe
[15:43]	Coco Linden:	actually, he's a super sweet guy and very supportive of my efforts
[15:43]	Charlette Proto:	hehe better Hump a Linden for fun
[15:43]	McCabe Maxsted nods. yeah, I like Q
[15:43]	Vent Sinatra:	hehee
[15:44]	Coco Linden:	i'm still pinching myself that i finally get to do what i've really wanted for a long time
[15:44]	Squirrel Wood:	Hmmm.......
[15:44]	Squirrel Wood:	I bet i could transplant the brain of a Duck into the Body of a Marketing Manager,
[15:44]	McCabe Maxsted:	(secretly wonders if coco knows this will all be posted on the wiki later)
[15:44]	Aimee Trescothick nods
[15:44]	Squirrel Wood:	But what would be the point?
[15:44]	Coco Linden:	LOL
[15:44]	Grant Linden:	it's nice to see things improving in the viewer
[15:44]	Charlette Proto:	I want it all yesterday
[15:44]	Vent Sinatra:	lol
[15:44]	Coco Linden:	yes, it always seems to take much longer to do anything in the viewer than i like or expect
[15:45]	Squirrel Wood:	It's pretty complex
[15:45]	Coco Linden:	when i came to LL i was full of fire to redo everything
[15:45]	Vent Sinatra:	hmmm and maybe 'we' are not the people you want to do 'simple' viewer improvements for
[15:45]	McCabe Maxsted:	coco: can you draw up some specific requirements for a featurette? I can assemble a meta issue pretty quickly, if you'd like
[15:45]	Coco Linden:	right, i've slowly learned just how big and complex the problem is, and that not even talking about the code yet
[15:45]	McCabe Maxsted:	hehe
[15:46]	McCabe Maxsted nods. It's a doosy
[15:46]	Charlette Proto:	how about trying to synchronise the start of gesture's sound text and animation to start when all elements are loaded and ready
[15:46]	Coco Linden:	well mccabe: i'm not sure what you're asking. meta tasks often contain featurettes but are not such themselves
[15:46]	Squirrel Wood:	millions of lines of code. and more millions of lines of comments. and ...
[15:46]	Jacek Antonelli:	Millions of lines of comments? I wish :)
[15:46]	Vent Sinatra:	lol
[15:46]	Squirrel Wood:	they take them out just for you ^^
[15:47]	Vent Sinatra:	the code is the comment :)
[15:47]	Coco Linden:	well, the viewer is definitely the better part of 1M LOC
[15:47]	McCabe Maxsted:	well I've got a pretty good running catalog of jira issues in my head.... I figured if that's where you're getting these from, you'd want to start a meta issue for them
[15:47]	Charlette Proto:	hehe good code should just read
[15:47]	Jacek Antonelli:	Yeah, the viewer source is a big beast o_O
[15:47]	Squirrel Wood:	meta issue and bundling them together in one place ^^
[15:47]	Vent Sinatra:	its not bad though
[15:47]	Squirrel Wood:	so you can work on a dozen at once ^^
[15:47]	Coco Linden:	mccabe: definitely. in fact i think it was one of your meta tasks that led me to do the beacons work
[15:48]	Coco Linden:	in that case it illustrated the depth of the problem
[15:48]	Coco Linden:	things get done when they're important & easy & popular
[15:48]	Coco Linden:	it's the combination of those things that makes them more likely
[15:49]	Squirrel Wood:	humm... information displayed on top about how many prims I have on the current parcel and total in the sim / estate should be relatively easy to add?
[15:49]	Coco Linden:	so creating meta tasks can improve the importance and popularity of problems
[15:49]	Charlette Proto:	but how would you judge the cost/effort - usually simple things unwind in the process
[15:50]	McCabe Maxsted nods. Heh, I got tired of emailing you guys/commenting about it so I just started collecting. I've been doing it with a few other often-reproted issues. That's sort of why I was thinking a meta issue of candidates might help you sort out what features are out there; there's been a lot posted
[15:50]	Coco Linden:	squirrel: i don't know but it's worth proposing, and perhaps some of the open-source devs can tell you how easy/hard it would be
[15:50]	Charlette Proto:	and how many prims in a linked group too
[15:51]	Coco Linden:	that's why patches are so important. we seldom import them unchanged, but as a proof-of-concept, they are extremely good at indicating how hard something will be
[15:51]	Charlette Proto:	sometimes it is hard to know if things are worth buying if you don't know prim count
[15:52]	Coco Linden:	mccabe: ah ha, i see. well internally we have the featurettes tag that helps us organize and cherry-pick. maybe we can do the same in pjira. i don't know
[15:52]	Vent Sinatra:	(whats on top of that list ?)
[15:52]	Aimee Trescothick:	mm, that raises something I've been wondering about a bit, would it be possible to get some feedback on what you've needed to change on patches to incorporate them? I know that could be a bit of a bind, but in theory it should make things easier on the next one
[15:53]	Coco Linden:	charlette: many vendors will advertize their prim counts. it's just good marketting if they've taken pains to make them effecient
[15:53]	Aimee Trescothick:	though I know some people aren't likely to take "your coding style is crap" well, personally I'd quite like to be told if it is :D
[15:53]	Aimee Trescothick:	I don't take offence easily :P
[15:54]	Charlette Proto:	well that is like relying on marketing to give attributes of the item in question
[15:54]	Coco Linden:	aimee: the most common change is to add more exception handling, but sometimes it's better to submit minimal patches and let us finish the work, otherwise they can grow more likely to cause merge collisions and hurt your chances of incorporation
[15:54]	McCabe Maxsted:	some people put it in the description, but hover tips are default turned off, heh
[15:55]	Aimee Trescothick nods
[15:55]	Grant Linden:	an interesting item to auto populate in a hove
[15:55]	Grant Linden:	hover
[15:55]	Grant Linden:	We are coming up in the end of the hour. Thank you, Coco, for sharing your work and answering questions. As always, if you have suggestions for future Rx Office hour topics, please let me know.
[15:55]	Jacek Antonelli:	Thanks Coco and Grant (and Q, if he reads the transcript ;) )
[15:55]	Aimee Trescothick:	Thanks Coco :)
[15:55]	Vent Sinatra:	ok, going to check jira for the flycam
[15:55]	Vent Sinatra:	how did that again ?
[15:55]	Coco Linden:	aimee: ive given credit to patch contributors even when not a single line of their work was used. it's the proof-of-concept that is most important
[15:56]	Aimee Trescothick:	VWR-6363 for lots of flycam stuff
[15:56]	Malbers Linden:	And we might be moving locations sometime soon. Check the emails for the location.
[15:56]	Vent Sinatra:	thnx aimee
[15:56]	McCabe Maxsted:	oooh
[15:56]	Squirrel Wood:	hippotropolis?
[15:56]	McCabe Maxsted:	disneyland?
[15:56]	Coco Linden:	and thanks for the invitation, grant
[15:56]	Coco Linden:	it's been fun
[15:56]	Malbers Linden:	well, somewhere less lag-tastic.
[15:57]	Grant Linden:	thank you for putting up with our "text only" meeting :)
[15:57]	Charlette Proto:	could we discuss the radil (pie) menu in the future meeting
[15:57]	McCabe Maxsted:	take care coco :)
[15:57]	Charlette Proto:	it is kind of nowhere now
[15:57]	Squirrel Wood:	yes. pie is worth a discussion ;)
[15:57]	Squirrel Wood:	and cake too!
[15:57]	Grant Linden takes note of Charlette's topic
[15:57]	Jacek Antonelli:	Yeah, we need a cake menu
[15:57]	Coco Linden:	thx for all your submissions too, mccabe, and for everyone's participation.
[15:58]	Charlette Proto:	I'd love it to be like Maya - very comprehensive and hierarchical
[15:58]	Jacek Antonelli:	To complement the pie menu
[15:58]	Malbers Linden:	Thanks Coco.