User:Benjamin Linden/Office Hours/2008-10-30

Transcript of Benjamin Linden's office hours:

[15:12]	Grant Linden:	welcome everyone, I sent out a discussion topic for today, but I would like to start off with another topic
[15:12]	Malbers Linden:	that's incredibly instructional (but waaaay off topic)
[15:12]	Charlette Proto:	SL wouldn't be worth living without build
[15:13]	Jacek Antonelli:	Yay, surprise topic
[15:13]	Charlette Proto:	I like the idea of supressing comms etc in the UI
[15:13]	Grant Linden:	I would like to talk about this Rx discussion meeting - so a meeting about a meeting
[15:14]	Geneko Nemeth:	Ahh, very meta...
[15:14]	Benjamin Linden:	:-)
[15:14]	Charlette Proto:	I get all matter of thing while I'm here
[15:14]	Grant Linden:	specifically we would like to talk about the possibility of making this a monthly meeting
[15:14]	Jacek Antonelli gasps!
[15:14]	Charlette Proto:	can't even raise the Inventory to the foreground above them
[15:15]	Geneko Nemeth:	Err?
[15:15]	Grant Linden:	how would you feel about having this meeting once a month?
[15:15]	Charlette Proto:	not sure if monthly would be good enough, to few topics
[15:15]	Charlette Proto:	have the whole day then
[15:16]	Geneko Nemeth:	Maybe, bi-weekly?
[15:16]	Charlette Proto:	and what will I do foe entertainment if the was so
[15:16]	Geneko Nemeth:	Sometimes it looks like we have topics half of the time.
[15:16]	Geneko Nemeth:	Other times it feels the one hour is too short for some issues...
[15:16]	Squirrel Wood:	monthly meetings tend to be of the type "3rd day of the 2nd week after the 7th full moon" and also tend to be forgotten about :(
[15:17]	Mm Alder:	Grant, what's the reason for the change?
[15:17]	Geneko Nemeth:	Hmm, have you been to these kind of meetings Squirrel?
[15:17]	Grant Linden:	I was hoping that I could bring in more guest speakers if we had less frequent events
[15:17]	Charlette Proto:	that sounds like we will be busy just trying ti figure out the next date
[15:17]	Squirrel Wood:	Geneko, I tend to forget about those :p
[15:18]	Mm Alder:	Grant, I don't follow. More speakers? Less events?
[15:18]	Charlette Proto:	I thought these meetings have been rather constructive
[15:18]	Mm Alder:	Isn't that backwards?
[15:18]	Grant Linden:	we are trying to create a ongoing converstaion with residents, but we are running out of topics that have value
[15:19]	Squirrel Wood:	what about jira issues ?
[15:19]	Charlette Proto:	no way there is so much to talk about, Christmas gifts for one
[15:19]	Jacek Antonelli:	Hrmm. Guest speakers are fun, but for me the real value of these office hours has been the discussions. Even (and some times especially) the ones with no set topic. There have been some gems that have come out of random chatter.
[15:19]	Geneko Nemeth:	Although this chat could use moar residents from different environments.
[15:20]	Grant Linden:	Squirrel, why do you suggest Jiras?
[15:20]	Squirrel Wood:	jiras tend to be "hot" topics
[15:20]	Benjamin Linden:	would it make sense to structure it as more of an "interest group" meeting, sort of like the mailing list
[15:21]	Charlette Proto:	I think unlike Jira a live forum brings opinions to the surface and really gets reactions
[15:21]	Benjamin Linden:	where sometimes lindens are here and other times not?
[15:21]	Jacek Antonelli:	Short on time to spend with us these days? ;)
[15:22]	Grant Linden:	three Lindens for an hour a week is expensive
[15:22]	Squirrel Wood:	there is much tricking and treating to be done :p
[15:22]	Jacek Antonelli:	True
[15:22]	Charlette Proto:	Lindens need to do more inworld not the reverse, else we become like Microsoft and have no idea
[15:22]	Charlette Proto:	hire more Lindens simple
[15:22]	Mm Alder:	Grant, how about Lindens taking turns?
[15:23]	Geneko Nemeth:	Besides, nobody says a meeting needs three Lindens...
[15:23]	Grant Linden:	yes, Charlette, but we tend to explore in our "non Linden" forms
[15:23]	Geneko Nemeth:	?
[15:23]	Geneko Nemeth:	I guess that's a typo...
[15:23]	Malbers Linden:	and we want to make sure that all of our time is used effectively -- yours and ours
[15:23]	Squirrel Wood:	It may be "expensive" but I'm sure at times it is more than worth the expense.
[15:23]	Charlette Proto:	Lindens could just read this and have a few more reading it too
[15:23]	Jacek Antonelli:	An interest group format would be (no pun intended) of interest to me
[15:24]	Benjamin Linden:	do you mean read the transcripts?
[15:24]	Charlette Proto:	how can you think of inworld as 'expensive'
[15:24]	Charlette Proto:	aren't we claiming people can do business here
[15:24]	Grant Linden:	what kind of interest group format would serve this group the best?
[15:24]	Benjamin Linden:	another thing that occurred to me as we're talking is that it would really help if residents took a more active role in planning and handling logistics for the meeting
[15:24]	Squirrel Wood:	an agenda ?
[15:25]	Benjamin Linden:	so things like proactively suggesting meeting topics, setting agendas, posting transcripts, etc.
[15:25]	Charlette Proto:	it would be farcical to claim business feasibility and have no evidence for doing it inhouse
[15:25]	Squirrel Wood:	like...
[15:25]	Benjamin Linden:	perhaps recruiting guest speakers
[15:25]	Squirrel Wood:	http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Bug_triage/Wednesday_Agenda
[15:25]	Benjamin Linden:	yes just like that Squirrel
[15:25]	Benjamin Linden:	we used to do rx bug triage that way
[15:26]	Benjamin Linden:	before it got rolled back into the main triage
[15:26]	Jacek Antonelli:	Charlette, that's not it -- having three Lindens take an hour out of their schedule each week = 3 hours less time to actually work on the UI each week. (Not counting the time lost from distraction / shifting gears)
[15:26]	Malbers Linden:	it would be great to get guest speakers who do not normally come here -- I'm sure all of you know way more interesting speakers than we do
[15:26]	Squirrel Wood:	I'm all for an agenda then :)
[15:26]	Charlette Proto:	Lindens could read the transcript if their time is too pressious
[15:27]	Squirrel Wood:	and you Lindens drawing straws to see who gets to host the next hour ^^
[15:27]	Charlette Proto:	but i believe that you need to do as you preach hence work inworld like we claim is feasible
[15:28]	Chaley May:	why dont office hours use voice?
[15:28]	Geneko Nemeth:	It's harder to log.
[15:28]	Squirrel Wood:	voice = hard to record?
[15:28]	Chaley May:	oh yeah iforget that
[15:28]	Geneko Nemeth:	Plus there are 50% of people not on voice, like me.
[15:28]	Grant Linden:	because we log the chat on the wiki
[15:28]	Chaley May:	yeah
[15:29]	Charlette Proto:	and people tend to answer all at once and one can;t understand anything
[15:29]	Geneko Nemeth:	For me it's mostly a technical issue (mono headset = Vivox fail)...
[15:29]	Geneko Nemeth:	+Linux
[15:29]	Charlette Proto:	chat gets through
[15:29]	Grant Linden:	even though it's hard for those of us who can't spell or type :)
[15:29]	Benjamin Linden:	heh
[15:29]	Charlette Proto:	voice can't be queued
[15:29]	Geneko Nemeth:	Also harder to moderate.
[15:29]	Charlette Proto:	who cares about speling in SL
[15:30]	Jacek Antonelli:	I would be fine with having a less formal meeting, more Resident organized. Set some agendas / discussion topics ahead of time, and Lindens could show up if the discussion relates to their field
[15:30]	Benjamin Linden:	so my suggestion around the "interest group" format was that this could be a designated hour for residents intersted in UI/UX to get together real time
[15:30]	Benjamin Linden:	exactly, Jacek
[15:30]	Grant Linden:	I think that might create a better forum
[15:30]	Geneko Nemeth:	This would also mean the interest group hour could be held more often and/or in different times like 3am SLT?
[15:31]	Jacek Antonelli:	Is there some software out there for formatting the transcripts? I'm used to posting transcripts for my own meetings, but I noticed these ones are formatted specially for the wiki
[15:31]	Charlette Proto:	we could meet in Korea1 and tell Lindens what we came up with hehe
[15:31]	Mm Alder:	But without Lindens present, a lot of questions go unanswered.
[15:31]	Geneko Nemeth:	Yeah I was wondering about that too.
[15:31]	Charlette Proto:	true
[15:31]	Squirrel Wood:	there is something that does all the formatting
[15:31]	Benjamin Linden:	Jacek, we have a perl script we use
[15:31]	Charlette Proto:	have a chat parrot
[15:31]	Benjamin Linden:	but there's also a website somewhere that can do it
[15:32]	Chat Parrot 0: Greeter script online.
[15:32]	Chat Parrot 0 whispers: Hello, Jacek Antonelli.
[15:32]	Chat Parrot 0: I mostly repeat everything you say.
[15:32]	Chat Parrot 0: But if you ask nicely, I'll give you a kiss.
[15:32]	Chat Parrot 0: Just say 'please give me a kiss'.
[15:32]	Geneko Nemeth:	Eep!
[15:32]	Chat Parrot 0 whispers: eep!
[15:32]	Squirrel Wood:	http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/AW_Groupies - (if you post chat logs, you might want to use the sllog2wiki perl script to turn them into a more readable wiki table format ready to copy & paste into the chat log page)
[15:32]	Chat Parrot 0 whispers: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/aw_groupies - (if you post chat logs, you might want to use the sllog2wiki perl script to turn them into a more readable wiki table format ready to copy & paste into the chat log page)
[15:32]	Charlette Proto:	sorry
[15:32]	Jacek Antonelli:	Thanks Squirrel
[15:32]	Benjamin Linden:	so perhaps the way to do this would be that we'd pick one meeting a month to have at least one linden at
[15:33]	Benjamin Linden:	and the UX interest group can organize discussions around those meetings
[15:33]	Benjamin Linden:	specifically with questions for lindens
[15:33]	Jacek Antonelli:	That sounds feasible
[15:33]	Charlette Proto:	have a forum weekly and get Lindens in ones a month
[15:33]	Benjamin Linden:	using the other sessions for related discussion, perhaps to prepare for the linden sessions
[15:33]	Jacek Antonelli waves to McCabe
[15:33]	Benjamin Linden:	right charlette
[15:34]	McCabe Maxsted:	ahoy :)
[15:34]	Grant Linden:	and I could be a point person for finding "the best linden" to answer
[15:34]	Charlette Proto:	especially if the Lindens were reading it at their own convenience
[15:34]	Benjamin Linden:	and if the group is proactive about posting agenda items, topics, etc, we can pop in more frequently as appropriate
[15:35]	Grant Linden looks forward to a more robust public forums system
[15:35]	Charlette Proto:	have the Lindens here if the want to participate and see if they are too busy or can't help themselves and come anyway
[15:35]	Mm Alder:	Perhaps SL-UX might be a better way to get Linden commentary
[15:36]	Mm Alder:	The list seems very quiet now
[15:36]	Charlette Proto:	I really believe inworld work is the foture for LL so everyone would come anyway
[15:36]	Charlette Proto:	lists are just too borring
[15:36]	Squirrel Wood does not participate on mailing lists... has too many of them to look through already :(
[15:36]	Benjamin Linden:	it would be nice to spur some more discussion on the mailing list, and use that to drive in-world discussions
[15:36]	Geneko Nemeth:	And they are non-real-time.
[15:36]	Geneko Nemeth:	A good mail client helps a lot.
[15:37]	Grant Linden:	Charlette, we all pretty much attend in world meetings all day long. But we still need to make sure the meetings are best for everyone.
[15:37]	Benjamin Linden:	if it was more community-driven I think it's more likely to be active
[15:37]	Charlette Proto:	real-time is the first ingredient of virtual presence and its best attribute
[15:37]	Geneko Nemeth:	Although they are quite expensive...
[15:38]	Benjamin Linden:	agreed charlette but it helps to supplement with asynchronous communication methods as well
[15:38]	Jacek Antonelli:	The mailing list and in-world meeting can be complementary, as Benjamin said
[15:38]	Jacek Antonelli:	Plus there are people who can't make it to these meetings because of scheduling (they are sleeping or at work or whatever at this time of day)
[15:38]	Grant Linden:	I do think in world resident contact is important, but it wold be great if the community could help to create topics and agendas that meet thier needs
[15:38]	Charlette Proto:	yes asynchronous is good but everything takes weeks like trying to do things in email
[15:39]	Charlette Proto:	if it is not live you don't know if you made the point clear and tend to write miles of useless stuff, GIGO results
[15:39]	McCabe Maxsted nods. I've been meaning to post a lot actually, but I've become fairly.... disillusioned with SL™ as of late
[15:40]	Charlette Proto:	well if you guys give up then who is to believe in it
[15:41]	Jacek Antonelli:	Well, I think it's worth a try. At the bare minimum we end up with 1 meeting a month with the Lindens, if the Resident organization doesn't pan out.
[15:41]	Benjamin Linden:	sorry to hear that McCabe, why are you feeling disillusioned?
[15:41]	Charlette Proto:	I feel that the life I share in SL with my friends just wouldn't happen on MySpace or Facebook, because we act together inworld and keep it alive that way
[15:41]	Squirrel Wood:	May I suggest not a specific agenda but more a list of topics that we can pick from to discuss them ?
[15:42]	Jacek Antonelli:	That sounds like a good idea to me, Squirrel
[15:42]	Charlette Proto:	yes i agree with squirrel too
[15:43]	Geneko Nemeth:	Actually I still think the most important thing is to involve more residents to the discussion, whether through an official office hour, an interest group or a mailing list.
[15:44]	Charlette Proto:	that is to make these meeting more productive and allow peeps to prepare content/questions
[15:44]	McCabe Maxsted:	this latest land fiasco is a start... watching patches get rejected for trivial matters is another. I think everyone here is great--you guys are the best lindens I've met :)-- but I'm not a particular fan of the company you work for
[15:44]	McCabe Maxsted:	(don't get me started ranting about the blog heh)
[15:45]	Charlette Proto:	we should be able to blog on these issues too for those who have time and energy
[15:46]	Squirrel Wood:	as for the "land issue" I think that hard caps will solve it. 3750 prims, temp included, 1000 scripts + avatars, 8 avatars max.
[15:46]	Charlette Proto:	* avatars for what kind of area squirrel?
[15:46]	Squirrel Wood:	opensims
[15:46]	Charlette Proto:	8*
[15:47]	Geneko Nemeth:	8 max seems to be a bit harsh, for example, sailing contests...
[15:47]	Charlette Proto:	OK yes maybe a few more
[15:47]	Benjamin Linden:	so what are good next steps from this discussion?
[15:47]	Squirrel Wood:	opensims have low resources...8 avatars easily use them up
[15:47]	Geneko Nemeth:	Lets' talk about the HUDs!
[15:47]	Charlette Proto:	yes
[15:47]	Squirrel Wood:	HUDs ^^
[15:47]	Benjamin Linden:	I'm wondering if we should postpone to next week?
[15:48]	Grant Linden:	I think so, Ben
[15:48]	Benjamin Linden:	given that there are only 15 min left
[15:48]	Charlette Proto:	we need a way to build HUDs out of ui primitives not stupid graphics
[15:48]	Grant Linden:	we can table the format issue until next week
[15:48]	Geneko Nemeth:	Also remember to send a mail to sl-ux
[15:48]	Benjamin Linden:	Grant, shall we say first thursday is linden meeting day?
[15:48]	Benjamin Linden:	which would be next week
[15:48]	Squirrel Wood:	and set up a website for the topic list ^^
[15:48]	Charlette Proto:	and dialogs for scripts could be made of the same elements
[15:48]	Geneko Nemeth:	Well, we don't really need to focus for one issue ~
[15:48]	Grant Linden:	yes, let's do that for now
[15:48]	Geneko Nemeth:	Make it on the wiki.
[15:48]	Grant Linden:	HUDs, anyone?
[15:49]	Benjamin Linden:	are there residents here who want to take a more active ownership role for the group?
[15:49]	Charlette Proto:	how about some Widgets to make HUDs and dialogs from
[15:49]	Benjamin Linden:	managing the wiki page, etc.
[15:49]	Squirrel Wood:	I think everyone should be able to add or reorder topics
[15:49]	Geneko Nemeth:	I'm thinking of client side LSL/JavaScript (if it's already included in browser) support, this would make HUDs more responsive.
[15:49]	Benjamin Linden:	it's a wiki, so anyone can edit
[15:49]	Charlette Proto:	what grop are you refering to Benj?
[15:49]	Jacek Antonelli:	I'm willing. I can do the transcript, spam the mailing list, etc.
[15:50]	Jacek Antonelli grins
[15:50]	Benjamin Linden:	but it would be helpful to have some folks step up and take ownership
[15:50]	Geneko Nemeth:	The not-yet-existant SL RX Interest group.
[15:50]	Charlette Proto:	JavaScript idea sounds great
[15:50]	Charlette Proto:	i love the object orientation in JS
[15:50]	Geneko Nemeth:	Although, JavaScript's kinda complex from what I've heard.
[15:50]	Charlette Proto:	I'd be in that group no question
[15:51]	Malbers Linden:	so, Grant as Linden POC and Jacek as resident POC?
[15:51]	Geneko Nemeth:	But the object system of Javascript is very interesting...
[15:51]	Malbers Linden:	using the existing SL-UX mailing list
[15:51]	Grant Linden:	yes, Malbers
[15:51]	Jacek Antonelli:	Sounds good
[15:51]	Charlette Proto:	no way javascript is great and it is introspective so you can interrogate the state and program
[15:51]	Benjamin Linden:	sounds good to me
[15:51]	Geneko Nemeth:	Most in-world scripters are LSL2ers though....
[15:51]	Theodore Folsom:	excuse me please, i gotta leave. Take care all and have a great day / night / whatever ;) See you =)
[15:52]	Jacek Antonelli:	ciao Theodore
[15:52]	McCabe Maxsted kinda missed the weeks when we just shot the ui breeze. Lots to talk about. And i'm still very much interested in the client and the potential here. I was rather hoping to talk about the build tools next week
[15:52]	Theodore Folsom:	*waves*
[15:52]	Benjamin Linden:	thanks for coming Theodore
[15:52]	Charlette Proto:	Javascript is the only dunamic programming platform that is used so widely
[15:52]	Grant Linden:	take care Theodore
[15:52]	Benjamin Linden:	add it to the topic list, McCabe ;_0
[15:52]	Geneko Nemeth:	OTOH if there's already a JS VM, there's no need to introduce another VM into the viewer.
[15:52]	Benjamin Linden:	once Jacek creates it :-)
[15:52]	Jacek Antonelli:	hehe
[15:52]	McCabe Maxsted:	hehe, I'll poke her with sticks
[15:52]	Squirrel Wood:	sharp sticks ?
[15:52]	McCabe Maxsted:	are there any other?
[15:53]	Squirrel Wood:	hehe
[15:53]	Charlette Proto:	the web capability in the viewer needs it anyway
[15:53]	Jacek Antonelli:	Ouch. I didn't think "point of contact" meant contacting me with pointy things!
[15:53]	McCabe Maxsted:	hahahah
[15:53]	Geneko Nemeth:	Yeah, JS engine in viewer already.
[15:54]	Malbers Linden:	POC == Pointy things cOme in Contact. Right?
[15:54]	Charlette Proto:	so why can't it work in HUDs and dialogs
[15:54]	Jacek Antonelli grins at Malbers
[15:54]	Squirrel Wood:	how about http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/UI_triage/Agenda as a starting point for the topic list ?
[15:55]	Geneko Nemeth:	What? But it's empty...
[15:55]	Jacek Antonelli:	Yeah, something like that, Squirrel. Not sure about the "triage" part, hehe
[15:55]	Benjamin Linden:	folks I need to run off to prep for another meeting. thanks for your patience and support as we try to evolve the meeting
[15:55]	Jacek Antonelli:	Take care Ben!
[15:55]	Squirrel Wood:	have a grrrrreat day!
[15:55]	Geneko Nemeth:	You'll need JS bindings for prim and/or XUI though.
[15:55]	McCabe Maxsted:	okay. Take care ben :)
[15:55]	Grant Linden:	see you later, Ben!
[15:55]	Charlette Proto:	cu Benj
[15:55]	Benjamin Linden:	see you all next week!
[15:55]	Geneko Nemeth:	Some kind of DOM?
[15:55]	Charlette Proto:	keep up weekly please
[15:55]	Geneko Nemeth:	Too bad it's XUI, not XUL...
[15:56]	Charlette Proto:	web 2 like DOM is best especially if compatible
[15:56]	Squirrel Wood:	As for the list of topics.. I would split them into HOT and General
[15:56]	Jacek Antonelli:	Geneko: Yeah, there's the trick -- there needs to be a programming interface for modifying XUI and communicating with in-world scripts.
[15:56]	Geneko Nemeth:	Hmm... though, since we have browser HUDs already, XUL HUDs shouldn't be much a problem.
[15:56]	Geneko Nemeth:	(Note, Mozilla XUL, not LL XUI)
[15:56]	Squirrel Wood:	McCabe, I do have a jira issue somewhere about better build tools
[15:56]	McCabe Maxsted:	hehe
[15:57]	McCabe Maxsted:	I might have heard about it :)
[15:57]	Jacek Antonelli:	In the long run I'd love to have LSL scripts be able to create a floater on your screen (with your permission of course) which would communicate back with the script :o
[15:57]	Jacek Antonelli:	But that's pretty far off
[15:57]	Charlette Proto:	Web 2 can do everything these days and it will do more in the future
[15:57]	McCabe Maxsted checks to make sure he voted
[15:57]	McCabe Maxsted:	oooh, the inworld hud topic
[15:57]	Charlette Proto:	it killed Flash on all fronts except playing YouTube
[15:58]	McCabe Maxsted:	err inclient
[15:58]	Squirrel Wood:	McCabe: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/MISC-632
[15:58]	Charlette Proto:	JavaScript and DOM rule
[15:58]	McCabe Maxsted:	ao not hud. I'm sorry, my brain just went for a moment
[15:58]	Geneko Nemeth:	But you're not gonna implemet those bindings with someone who scored 15 out of 25 on a first-year C++ course (me :)
[15:58]	Jacek Antonelli:	hehehe
[15:59]	Squirrel Wood:	I have seen excellent HUDs and I have met some quite... horrible ones...
[16:00]	Jacek Antonelli:	Hrmm. RXIG? (Resident eXperience Interest Group) ? SLUXIG?
[16:00]	Charlette Proto:	I think we still managed to table a few issues and so glad JS was raised as an option for HUD API
[16:00]	Geneko Nemeth:	I don't use HUDs much,
[16:00]	Grant Linden:	I need to head off ot the next meeting
[16:00]	Squirrel Wood:	simple name, non techy-geeky should attract more resis ^^
[16:00]	Grant Linden:	take care everyone
[16:00]	McCabe Maxsted:	okay grant
[16:00]	Geneko Nemeth:	See ya!
[16:00]	McCabe Maxsted:	take care
[16:00]	Squirrel Wood:	have fun!
[16:00]	Jacek Antonelli:	Take care Grant!