User:Torley Linden/Office Hours/2008-05-01

Torley Linden: OH MY GOSH I AM SO SORRY I AM LATE
Torley Linden: I have no excuses, I forgot what time it was!
Jei Desoto: There he be... : 3
XLR8RRICK Hudson: Torley is in the house
CrimsonWings Eun: lol fails
Kii Lilliehook: Torley!
Stephen Posaner: clock is fast
fr43k Paine: woot!
Torley Linden: And I was in the middle of making a new set of 20 video tutorial QUICKTIPS and the next Tip of the Week!
XLR8RRICK Hudson: Torley is not Late the Atomic clock is Fast
fr43k Paine: Welcome Torley :)
Jei Desoto: Hello.
Torley Linden: Hahahaha.
CeeJay Tigerpaw: Hi Torley!
Stephen Posaner: hey torley
Jaymes Kjeller: Hey Torley!
Torley Linden: Oh my gosh thanks for waiting for me! The patience IS severely appreciated.
CeeJay Tigerpaw: We were all trying to come up with interesting Torley stories to be telling when you arrived.
CeeJay Tigerpaw: But we couldn't decide which one to begin with....
Torley Linden: Friendly greetings Jei, XLR8RRICK, CrimsonWings, Kii, Stephen, fr43k, CeeJay, Stephen, Jaymes, everyone!
Torley Linden: LOL!
CrimsonWings Eun: un torley your head...its..on fire
Lex Neva: ahoy
Jei Desoto: : )
Torley Linden: Oh yes, this hat... it's a miniature of "Mount G'al"...
Torley Linden: a landmark made by Ben Linden long ago!
XLR8RRICK Hudson: wow you speeded my full name out XL is good
Torley Linden: Heya Lex!
CeeJay Tigerpaw: It is Mount Torluvius!
Torley Linden: Long time no see inworld.
Lex Neva: Didn't you see the "no smoking" sign?
Torley Linden: OK XL!
Lex Neva: Yeah :)
Torley Linden: Hahahaha.
CeeJay Tigerpaw: Torley is hot stuff.
CeeJay Tigerpaw: Or hot-headed.
Torley Linden: That brings to mind if I was in a place that said NO SMOKING and NO HATS (for etiquette and stuff), then I'd be breaking both rules!
Torley Linden: That's too funny.
Squirrel Wood: /ao off
Torley Linden: So what is new and/or exciting!
Squirrel Wood: Hellu Torley!
CrimsonWings Eun: but what if it was just a no smoking area
CeeJay Tigerpaw: I ran across what might be a very scarey bug the other day.
Lex Neva: Well, I was hoping to talk about the dreaded "___ missing from database." error that's been eating my scripts...
CrimsonWings Eun: would you technicly be breaking the rule?
Torley Linden: Ugh... Lex, that's still continuing? New scripts affected, or older ones?
fr43k Paine: your scripts and my gestures Lex
Lex Neva: Oh, it sure is. I just lost one the other day.
Torley Linden: :(
Lex Neva: I've lost 3 scripts that were really important to me :/
CrimsonWings Eun: some of my older scripts have been eaten too
Squirrel Wood: I get gesture xyz missing from db error on login, yet I can open said gesture from my inv and play it without problems...
Lex Neva: They still run, but I can't get at the code. It's gone forever.
Kii Lilliehook: I have my scripts outworld in version control...
Torley Linden: I haven't been closely involved with the Issue Tracker (PJIRA) lately so I'm not sure what's the latest on that but it's awful to hear that.
Lex Neva: The commonality seems to be that they're all in stuff I wear fairly regularly.
Lex Neva: I guess this'd be more appropriate for a techie office hour, but I got upset today at losing something and came to the first office hour I could find ;)
Squirrel Wood: I recommend saving important scripts on your computer
CeeJay Tigerpaw: My possible bug is a bad one! A friend of mine reported Lindens disappearing from her account mysteriously, while someone else in the area appeared to be doing something to cause it.
Lex Neva: Yeah, I did that... but it's hard to remember everything, and go through all of my objects and dig out the scripts... and anyway, it's too late :(
Torley Linden: Yeah I totally understand Lex, I wish I knew more, I would definitely let you know if I heard if this was traced to a specific problem or recent event we knew... but I haven't heard.
CeeJay Tigerpaw: If that capability is real, it is only a matter of time till someone comes up with a bot that will suck user accounts dry in seconds.
CeeJay Tigerpaw: I believe her -- I filed an AR on her behalf (she is a newcomer). What else should I do?
Lex Neva: Well, my understanding is that it's related to asset garbage collection, Torley.
Torley Linden: CeeJay, if that's verified as an exploit it should DEFINITELY be sent to security@lists.lindenlab.com ASAP.
CrimsonWings Eun: its most likely a bug that some idiot it taking responcibilty for to be an ass, its probably due to group liabilities
Squirrel Wood: did she give debit permission to any strange object ?
Lex Neva: Ceejay, it could well be someone exploiting an object with debit perms, and/or someone accidentally granted perms ot something they shouldn't...
CeeJay Tigerpaw: Will do! I did not know about that address.
Squirrel Wood: or group liabilities.. yes.
Torley Linden: I would verify with her, if your friend is new, to check out those other possibilities.
Torley Linden: Group liabilities IS confusing...
CeeJay Tigerpaw: She said she had not gotten any new objects lately.
Torley Linden: Esp. if you have "Show place in search" on for several parcels.
Torley Linden: (Group-owned parcels.)
Kii Lilliehook: but group liabilites can't transfer money to other people.
Squirrel Wood: Tanuki...
CeeJay Tigerpaw: I do not know about all those capabilities myself. I will forward the number of my bug report to security.
CrimsonWings Eun: as i said the person was probaly just being mean saying ti was him
Jei Desoto: Me? <= |
CeeJay Tigerpaw: If anyone is interested, it is [rt.lindenlab.com #1175462] Abuse Report Received: Abuse: E:8393 P:1 |Barbuda dAlliez| (http://slurl.com/secondlife/Barbuda%20dAlliez/23/52/28) [Other] {Erika Tennen} "Theft of Lindens from a resident account by unknown means." RT#1175462
Torley Linden: Lex, I'll be sure to let Hamilton Linden know, he's knowledgeable about inventory and data loss stuff and the projects we've had ongoing related to those.
CeeJay Tigerpaw: My friend lost 500 Lindens in a few minutes, and was most upset.
Lex Neva: Okay, Torley, that'd be great. I'd love ot know if this is being actively worked on... it's been at least 6 months.
CrimsonWings Eun: debit permssions cant be bypassed as far as i know
Lex Neva: It'd be cool if Hamilton wanted to contact me directly... I've seen this firsthand several times, and I've been gathering information under my issue SVC-553
Torley Linden: Yeah Lex, I know you've been incredibly patient and helpful about it too.
Torley Linden: I'll be sure to let him know that too, Lex!
Squirrel Wood: I would check if there isn't any object either in the sim or elsewhere that went and asked for debit perms and has been granted those... cause then that object can do such things
CrimsonWings Eun: it could be a group bug that takes the liabilitys repeatedly
Kooky Jetaime: CeeJay - Thats.. uhm... not possible.. an object just can't take money from you, it has to have permission.
CeeJay Tigerpaw: The sim was Violet -- a welcome area.
CeeJay Tigerpaw: It wasn't me suggesting a mechanism.
Lex Neva: Debit perms are scary... I've seen cases of this a lot, where someone's given SOMETHING debit perms, but can't find it.
Kooky Jetaime: CeeJay - plus there should be a transaction history
fr43k Paine: Kokey, whats with deformers?
Torley Linden: I've known some cases in which someone clicked through a bunch of dialogs and missed the yellow debit perms one, because they were doing it so quickly... but there should be more checking into what might happen.
CeeJay Tigerpaw: She said that there was no transaction history, but her account balance was down 500 L$.
fr43k Paine: they dont ask to animate your avatar, they just do it
CrimsonWings Eun: yea have her check the transaction history that will shed some light
CeeJay Tigerpaw: You see why this is scary.
CeeJay Tigerpaw: She did check -- no transactions reported.
Kii Lilliehook: I've seen frauds where people convinced other people with very complicated arguments that they should give them debit permission.
CeeJay Tigerpaw: NO TRANSACTIONS REPORTED
CeeJay Tigerpaw: (oops)
Squirrel Wood: It would be nice to have a list of objects that have debit perms and be able to revoke the permissions from unwanted objects...
Lex Neva: Exactly, Torley. Hence that patch awhile back to make the debit request dialog more prominent... but debit perms are so dangerous that a way to revoke them would be very helpful
CeeJay Tigerpaw: but account down 500 L$
Kooky Jetaime: CeeJay - there has to be something, unless there is an account screwup
CeeJay Tigerpaw: in a welcome area.
Squirrel Wood: just as it should be possible to *deny* payments.
Kooky Jetaime: since the list goes in order from a starting balance to current balance.
Torley Linden: We currently do have an overall "improved notifications" project which would affect debit permissions and other confirmation dialogs going on.
Kii Lilliehook: that's strange. it alwas should give a transaction history entry.
CeeJay Tigerpaw: I agree with Kooky, but I do not underestimate the intelligence of serious computer criminals.
Squirrel Wood: because people cannot not accept payments
CeeJay Tigerpaw: I will report to security immediately.
Lex Neva: fr43k, animation perms are granted automatically to attachments and objects the av is seated on, but debit perms are never granted automatically
Kii Lilliehook: I heared about a similar case some time ago.
Damani Roadster 0.50 - watermelon: You are not the owner...
CeeJay Tigerpaw: A friend of mine reports hearing rumors of such things, but she could not recall from whom or exactly when she heard them.
Lex Neva: corollary: don't overestimate the powers of computer criminals ;)
Torley Linden: Some will recall that further back, the debit permissions dialog wasn't attention-getting enough, but it's been made yellow to catch the eyes better.
Torley Linden: CeeJay: With rumors, I always, always insist on a source. :) Otherwise, it's likely bunk.
CrimsonWings Eun: its been bade BIG and yellow
CrimsonWings Eun: made*
Kii Lilliehook: Maybe the Lindens where removed by Linden Labs itself, because of fraudulent origin? I heared about such things.
fr43k Paine: LEx, so if you just click/touch an object its seated to your av? Was just an idea if it works with animations it may work with other things too
Torley Linden: Kii, if that were the case, our billing folks should contact the account in question.
CrimsonWings Eun: well there are people that ahve gotten themselves linden powers via custom viewer cleints
Lex Neva: On the topic of money... I, for one, have seen a HUGE decrease in sales in april, versus march, which was my best sales month ever. I'm pretty sure it's related to the severe increase in failed deliveries :/
Jaymes Kjeller: Maybe add a loud sound that plays when it appears, just to make certain that people are aware of it. :)
CrimsonWings Eun: those accounts set off huge red flags and are usualy banned
Igel Hawks: hyia @all
Jei Desoto: Hello.
Torley Linden: Jaymes, I've been asked to help with some UI sounds in the future... tentative but I will keep that in mind. I know some folks keep UI sounds off tho.
Torley Linden: Heya Igel!
Lex Neva: fr43k: no. If you sit on an object or wear it, then it can get a few permissions without asking the user, but NOT debit permissions.
Torley Linden: (In some past life, I was a sound designer.)
CrimsonWings Eun: i have SL muted 90% of the time due to voice and gesture spammers
CeeJay Tigerpaw: The lindens were removed in small quantities, quickly, over a few minutes, each accompanied by the"ka-ching" sound, and with some laughter on the part of other persons present in the sim -- which was a welcome area.
Kii Lilliehook: I always have all sounds off.
Igel Hawks: Great sounds, yeah ....
Torley Linden: Ryan Linden created the original UI sounds.
CrimsonWings Eun: again it could be hacked linden powers
Lex Neva: That really sounds like they granted debit perms when they shouldn't have, ceejay
Kii Lilliehook: hacked linden powers? your sure that they haven't just switched on "admin options" so you see all those menues?
CrimsonWings Eun: no those are sompletely differnet
Lex Neva: that won't give you teh ability to steal lindens
CrimsonWings Eun: those are "soft powers" you can mess with them but they dont work
Kii Lilliehook: yes, like "Kick all users".
Torley Linden: They're viewer-side so they don't affect transactional capabilities and such... but "View Admin options" IS confusing (less than it used to be before, when we had Client/Server menus instead of Advanced).
CrimsonWings Eun: the open source lient has all the information for the developer and linden options and can be enabled by compilers that know what there doing
CeeJay Tigerpaw: A simple rational explanation is possible, but you can see why I am worried. Torley, I will cc you a copy of my letter to security, and will do so for anyone else who posts an EMail address here.
Lex Neva: crimson: can you be more specific? Is it possible for someone to use that to do something they shouldn't be able to do?
Torley Linden: CeeJay: Thanks... and hopefully it won't happen again but if it WAS debit perms, one way to check is to relog quickly, and then do *nothing* after logging on and see what happens.
Lex Neva: or is their attempt blocked by the system?
CrimsonWings Eun: yes
Jaymes Kjeller: But the Lindens can block such viewers when they are discovered.
Igel Hawks: yeah.
Kii Lilliehook: debit perms show up in history, don't they?
CrimsonWings Eun: normal cleints have admin options refused
CrimsonWings Eun: but on some custom ones, they have the flags enabled for the server to accept them
Kii Lilliehook: as Torey said, it's on the server side. no worries.
CrimsonWings Eun: lest last time i checked
Jaymes Kjeller: It's one of the advantages of the channel and version system for the viewer, as LL can, for example, block a viewer with any security flaws.
Torley Linden: Jaymes, I found that out firsthand! LOL...
Jei Desoto: Yeah... in going to fast to debug options i accidently chose "request adim status" and it just told me something of acess level and being logged or something.
Jaymes Kjeller: I think there is plenty of infomation about it in the wiki.
Igel Hawks: yeah, it logs the attempt.
CrimsonWings Eun: yea that can be alled in a custom client
CrimsonWings Eun: allowed*
Jei Desoto: That sounds dangerous : P
CrimsonWings Eun: dont it?
Igel Hawks: but no worries.
CrimsonWings Eun: the only reasons the PNs dont use it in their shooped life clients is that they would bneed to recompile every time the hash is banned
CrimsonWings Eun: and there lazy
JetZep Zabelin: whats god mode level 200 ?
Jei Desoto: Well, that's abit reassuring... guess it keeps that level of "griefing" down...
JetZep Zabelin: Leaving god mode, level 200
Torley Linden: JetZep... you really wanna know? You really wanna know?
JetZep Zabelin: =D
Torley Linden: ;)
Torley Linden: Lindens have levels like video game bosses, haha! Well, they used to have MORE of a distinction... but currently now, I think all Lindens are "Level 200".
Igel Hawks: ah.
Torley Linden: Historically long ago, we used to have lower levels for temporary contractors.
Roxanne Questi: Hey y'all
Jei Desoto: So we'd be around level 0? <: )
Torley Linden: But, that wasn't actually very useful.
Sakura Hullabaloo: hi all :)
Torley Linden: Heya Roxanne and Sakura!
Igel Hawks: Hi sweetheart :D
Roxanne Questi: hi, torley'
Jei Desoto: Hello.
Roxanne Questi: mind if i join?
Roxanne Questi: mind if i smoke?
Torley Linden: Please do!
Torley Linden: Hehe, yes... ! Virtual smoke won't hurt... I hope. Plus, I'm smoking.
Igel Hawks: Torley smokes, too.
Multi Chair Crate v1.0.42 (TORLEY MOD) whispers: Maximum number of chairs reached, please rez another Multi Chair table.
Roxanne Questi: good
Igel Hawks: So why not?
Roxanne Questi: where are you?
Roxanne Questi: heh
Torley Linden: I can't be a hypocrite there.
Roxanne Questi: oh YAY
Torley Linden: I'm a few feet away!
Roxanne Questi: (DUH)
Squirrel Wood: Smoking is bad for your pixels :p
Igel Hawks: the traditional Watermelinden Lag
Roxanne Questi: ha
Sakura Hullabaloo: lol
Squirrel Wood: Don't wear one :p
Roxanne Questi: no crack is bad for crystals -cigs are good
Roxanne Questi: cigs and coffee
Squirrel Wood: http://blog.lib.umn.edu/ster0171/socks/funny-no-smoking-sign.jpg
Stephen Posaner: java
Roxanne Questi: good one
Torley Linden: I haven't seen that sign before. Ha, it is funny.
Torley Linden: I liked the take on Uncle Sam in the Beatles-inspired movie, Across the Universe.
Torley Linden: That was fantastic.
Igel Hawks: Loading ....
Kooky Jetaime: you know
Lex Neva: I like the "Those found smoking will be assumed to be on fire and will be put out."
Lex Neva: sign
Jei Desoto: Ik... My Second Life browser never scrolls in fullscreen >xD
Sakura Hullabaloo: lol
Kooky Jetaime: is it only me, or am I thinking this conversation will start a whole new level of browser work?
CrimsonWings Eun: i dont like the embedded browser, its slow
Kooky Jetaime: er client hackuing
Jei Desoto: It's rather new, though, right?
Sakura Hullabaloo: i use it to view the blog cos it often doesn't work for me with Firefox
Torley Linden: Yeah the embedded browser has some chunky scrolling...
Torley Linden: I wish it felt smoother. And I hope for Flash video eventually.
CrimsonWings Eun: its made of epic fail
fr43k Paine: SL brwoser doesnt work with Google docs (for me) so I still need to use IE/FF
Torley Linden: Well I wouldn't say it's *that* bad, but it points the way to better things for sure.
JayR Cela: embeded browser / I use mozilla SeaMonkey as default / and have the inworld browser plug that in
Igel Hawks: That would be great, if the browser would get better
JayR Cela: works grat for me
Jei Desoto: But it's there : P Improving will come to it eventually i'm sure... it just needs to scroll for me in fullscreen >xD
Squirrel Wood: Preventive Medicine: Block the enemy from capturing a control point with an Uber-Charged teammate.
Kooky Jetaime: Squirrel - this is SL, not TF2
Squirrel Wood: ^^
Lex Neva: Before I go... torley, I'm not sure if you're a good linden to point to this, but could you check out http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-4431 sometime? In short, it's a suggestion to put in an actual switch to block purchases and such when a Linden posts "please refrain from purchases and transactions" during system trouble.
Lex Neva: I think it might go a long way to increasing customer trust, which has been hit hard lately :/
CeeJay Tigerpaw: Torley, I have sent that letter and CC'd you. TYVM for listening and explaining, all of you.
Torley Linden: Sure Lex, I'll have a look.
Lex Neva: thanks :)
Torley Linden: You're welcome CeeJay.
Roxanne Questi: can i ask a question?
Jei Desoto: Sounds like a good idea... Whould remove alot of complaining to vendor owners when people disreguard the message and lose their transactions.
Lex Neva: I wanted to point Katt, the new communications linden, to it... but I don't know her email address.
Torley Linden: katt@lindenlab.com I believe. :) I'll let her know too!
Jei Desoto: Or log in just after the message.
XLR8RRICK Hudson: I found with all the failed Transactions it give me an oppertunity to make my customers happy with replacments
Lex Neva: Jei: it's VERY easy to miss that warning about transactions, even.
Lex Neva: Great, thanks Torley!
Torley Linden: More preventative measures like that would be great.
Torley Linden: You're welcome, Lex.
Jei Desoto: Well, for whatever reason, so yes, it's be a good idea.
Igel Hawks: yeah, would make it much easier
Roxanne Questi: Can I ask about ajaxlife.net?
Squirrel Wood: anyway.... Team Fortress 2 is free 2 play this weekend.... (See http://www.steampowered.com/goldrush/ for details) and now I must be off to hone my medical skills...
Lex Neva: XLR: this is true... but I think a lot of customers have just decided to keep their money instead :/
Yohane Rockett: Hello all :D
Torley Linden: What often happens is, during that sort of trouble, people start rezzing (and losing) no-copy items, and then we get a flood of support tickets, there's a lot of time and trouble for everyone involved. Arghhhh.
Torley Linden: What are you wondering about, Roxanne?
XLR8RRICK Hudson: yes sales are really down
CrimsonWings Eun: i got TF2 in the orange box
Couples MultiAnimator v2e whispers: * Abranimations Couples Animator Ready...
Kooky Jetaime: oh goodie
Torley Linden: I haven't used ajaxlife.net in awhile but salute the innovation of K. Berry. :)
Kooky Jetaime: I'll have to play TF2 this weekend
Roxanne Questi: I am wondering if the unofficial sl site 'ajaxlife.net' can be stabilized.
Kooky Jetaime: and pwn the amateurs.
Kooky Jetaime: ;)
Lex Neva: Torley: exactly. And some linden makes that warning and KNOWS these operations will fail and content will get lost. It seems like we could just connect a problem with a solution here ;)
Torley Linden: Roxanne, stabilized how?
Jei Desoto: Yeah... that sounds like a bigger trouble... i mean... no copy is a nice realism for some products... losing them -wouls- horribly stink...
Roxanne Questi: Torley, it crashes a lot
Kii Lilliehook: I am wondering why I should enter my login info on a site that just gives me an ip and an unsecured connection...
Torley Linden: Lex: Yeah, it's a big gap. It's like "OH NO... DON'T..." *covers eyes*
Jei Desoto: would even.
Kooky Jetaime: Lex - I had an idea for something along those lines
Lex Neva: seriously
Kooky Jetaime: I need to get it Jira'ed
Torley Linden: Roxanne, sounds like that'd be more up to the Resident creator than Linden Lab?
Roxanne Questi: yes true torley
Lex Neva: "Please refrain from transactions as necessary" is a common one. How do WE know what "as necessary" is?
Lex Neva: or, more importantly, nontechnical users
Roxanne Questi: any way i can contact that person and offer assistance?
Torley Linden: Lex, also a good point... someone who doesn't know a lot isn't informed to make a good judgment. Plus, at a stressful time, emotions kick in.
Lex Neva: exactly :)
Torley Linden: Roxanne, I'm not sure what their email address is offhand but they're on Teen Second Life.
Lex Neva: The worst part is that customers get upset at us sellers... and it's totally not our fault.
Jaymes Kjeller: I second that, as I'm often guilty of that in my First Life. :)
Torley Linden: Lex: Yeah, it causes all these other problems. :(
Torley Linden: I'd rather see that prevented than get into blaming.
XLR8RRICK Hudson: yes They come to me mad as hell but when I am finished with them they are really happy
Jaymes Kjeller: Yeah, blaming the sellers, or even the lindens, in my opinion, gets no-one nowhere.
Lex Neva: Anyway, sorry, I don't mean to get all angry and such ;) I'm just frustrated.
XLR8RRICK Hudson: right
CrimsonWings Eun: but blaming then lindens is fun
Lex Neva: but it makes lindens go home and cry at night :(
Kii Lilliehook: lol
CrimsonWings Eun: assss dues the lindens need snuggles?
CrimsonWings Eun: awwwws*
Torley Linden: Yes, it definitely is frustrating for everyone affected.
CrimsonWings Eun: linden snuggle fest?
CrimsonWings Eun: :O
CrimsonWings Eun: epic win
Kii Lilliehook: A positive thing:w with windlight my viewer ist fast as hell and never crashes.
CrimsonWings Eun: Mweh Mweh! :O
Lex Neva: Havok4's awesome, too!
CrimsonWings Eun: i have all the windlight stuff off my computer sucks too much for it
Torley Linden: Kii, I'm glad to hear that. Heck, WindLight graphics devs would be happy to hear that.
Torley Linden: I've yet to have more physics fun...
CrimsonWings Eun: even the brand new uuber macs at school crawl to 10 FP with everything turned way up
XLR8RRICK Hudson: so How many Lindens does it take to screw in a light bulb
Torley Linden: altho I found myself annoyed in a Havok4 region when I was in the sky, trying to float, and kept sinking slowly down.
Torley Linden: I believe that's on PJIRA.
XLR8RRICK Hudson: Two but the grid monkeys cant get their bones in
Igel Hawks: My graphics troubles are allmost gone with the latest RC
Torley Linden: @_@
CrimsonWings Eun: yea plus all my fun toys and weapons are nerfed
Torley Linden: I wonder if anyone takes the term "gridmonkey" seriously, as in, they mistakenly think it's an easy job because a monkey can do it?
Lex Neva: Hmm, may as well make it a 3-for while I'm suggesting ideas that've occurred to me: Torley, has anyone in management considered taking a lesson from LiveJournal and controlling growth? Something like LJ's invite codes system might give you folks time to finish stability improvements before they're needed...
Kii Lilliehook: Oh, I fear the next relelase, because the RC crashes me regularly:(
CrimsonWings Eun: i can make a huge fountain of prims now with my uber fast rezzer
XLR8RRICK Hudson: lol
Igel Hawks: *giggles*
Sakura Hullabaloo: hehe
Torley Linden: Lex, in previous months, yes... there was that whole "limit Second Life to Premium accounts when high concurrency is causing us problems" heated discussion too.
Roxanne Questi: torley i been looking for an asian male av - where did you get yours?
CrimsonWings Eun: and what happened to restricting logins at peak time s to land owners/ business owners, and paid accounts?
Lex Neva: Ah, that one :/
Torley Linden: What CrimsonWings said too.
Yohane Rockett gave you YR-Purple Stripe Pants.
Kii Lilliehook: maybe they just should throw all these bots out.
CrimsonWings Eun: call me crim
Igel Hawks: aww, I remember this discussions ...
Stephen Posaner: NCI has a free male av
Lex Neva: I don't necessarily like that idea... but limiting NEW signups... that might be good. LJ made it so you could only join for free if someone invited you, and people had a limited number of invites. If you wanted to pay, though, you could get in without an invite.
Kii Lilliehook: In my guess there are about 50% bots on the grid...
Roxanne Questi: hehe
Lex Neva: The thing is... _I_ am a basic account.
Lex Neva: My group owns a sim, though.
CrimsonWings Eun: yea 50% of people are either AFKers or bots
Lex Neva: But since _my_ account doesn't...
CrimsonWings Eun: im a basic acc to
XLR8RRICK Hudson: Kii join the LL Traffic Future
Igel Hawks: same here
Jaymes Kjeller: Why use a bot? In my view, it makes you seem lazy. :p
Roxanne Questi: you think that there are that many bots?
CrimsonWings Eun: used to be paid but i couldnt afford it any more
Kii Lilliehook: up in the sky you often find now boxes with 10 or 20 bots, to increase traffic.
Kooky Jetaime: I think there are a ton of bots
Kooky Jetaime: not 50%
fr43k Paine: Same here and I earn money in SL..so if you limit access to those accounts you`ll leave out customers as well
Torley Linden: It's a problem because we simultaneously want to encourage growth/more inworld usage hours AND increase stability.
Kooky Jetaime: Easilly 25%
JetZep Zabelin: i est. about 20% bots
Roxanne Questi: they discussed this on the traffic article in the blog a day or 2 ago
Lex Neva: I draw an income from SL as well, fr43k
Lex Neva: and I release open source tools and such :)
Torley Linden: I wonder how many of those bots might be used for creative purposes that don't annoy others, like being background "actors" in machinima.
CrimsonWings Eun: well i think finding a happy medial between the two would be rather hard
Roxanne Questi: how much machinima is being made, torley?
Kooky Jetaime: I like that idea Lex... re: invitations
Lex Neva: Well, the interesting thing about the invite codes system, as seen in gmail as well, is that it actually creates a furor, and people want to get in.
Jaymes Kjeller: True, it's a very tough subject to handle.
Jei Desoto: i've gottan alot of DiSSENTiON spammer bots the past few days... Land's not currenlty public, and one founds it's way glitching inside the reaches of the land... a friend couldn't eject it, so he killed it >xD
Torley Linden: Roxanne, I'd like to get more stats on that. Specifically, how many video tutorials are being made.
JetZep Zabelin: Torley, probably a lot and their owners love them =)
Lex Neva: So once the infrastructure has grown enough to handle it, open the floodgates and you get a rush of new users.
CrimsonWings Eun: its called shoopedlife
CrimsonWings Eun: it bypasses all parcel and region bans
Kii Lilliehook: yes, bots can be usefull. It's more camping and traffic that are the problems.
Torley Linden: But things come in waves.
CrimsonWings Eun: not to mention ways to ban the account its self
Lex Neva: It's not about blocking new people... just limiting the flow.
Torley Linden: I wish more people would MTurk.com instead of camp. :)
Lex Neva: haha, yeah
JetZep Zabelin: I just tried wegame, its easy to use for videogame capture
Torley Linden: Lex, interesting part of that is it can make Second Life seem more exclusive/special to some, if it's invite-only. At least that's sort of the psychological perception I've seen at other places that've tried that (and with all these "Web 2.0" services, there's a lot!).
Kooky Jetaime: Torley - what about registering "Bot" accounts with a flag?? When the service is on overload, you can automatically d/c and lock those accounts out for a perio.d
Lex Neva: Right!
Lex Neva: So not only would it mean that you're NOT sacrificing marketing by limiting growth in users, but you might actually get a boost from it.
CrimsonWings Eun: but then people wont register hte account as a bot
Torley Linden: Kooky, but how do we reliably detect they're bots? And do it automatically? (Manually would take a lot of resources.)
Lex Neva: And meanwhile, every stability/scalability improvement gain won't be immediately subsumed by more users flooding in
Kooky Jetaime: Torley - Try voluntary registration to start with
Torley Linden: And related to that Lex, is new people who flood in and then leave because of those service problems... not understanding any better and not having the patience to stick around.
Lex Neva: Anyway, I'm way out here, so I don't know what it's really like to run this kind of business... but I've seen this invite model often, and it seems to work well.
Lex Neva: bingo!
Lex Neva: You lose them forever, or at least for years.
Kooky Jetaime: If busniess Owners are given the choice between: Having their model bots turned off, or having to lose more sales because the asset servers gonna tank, I think they'll sacrafice the bots.
Lex Neva: But if you say "Not quite ready for you yet... come back soon!", you might get them back sooner.
Kii Lilliehook: is really the number of users the root of these technical problems?
CrimsonWings Eun: but if people know their bots are gona get kicked only a small ammount of people will give their bot accounts the flag
Torley Linden: Kooky: There are a lot of people who are selfish about resources and don't really care until the problems affect *them* personally, and not in the abstract sense.
Lex Neva: I don't know, Kii... I'm just guessing.
fr43k Paine: What would you say to introduce a similar method as "Valve" use it for "Steam" ? Once you registered your game key its locked to THAT accoutn and cant be removed/registered again. SO if you sign up SL you need to register your ID card number (as for age verification)...so once you have registered that one your ID Number is locked to that account and can`t be registered twice...would limit ALTs and bots...also there would be an instant age verification and would keep udneraged folks out....?!
Kooky Jetaime: Torley - but as a business owner, every time the asset server goes wonky, it DOES affect them personally, their bottom line
CrimsonWings Eun: some people dont give out info
CrimsonWings Eun: wich means the people that dont trust that info on the net cant play
Kii Lilliehook: most of the inhabitants of the world don't even got an ID card...
Jaymes Kjeller: It might be unpopular due to some legit uses for alts.
Lex Neva: I use my alt regularly, and I wouldn't like the idea of eliminating alts.
Torley Linden: It's always a shame certainly when a few people make poor use of a tool and hurt many others, but that's a human problem... not constrained to Second Life.
CrimsonWings Eun: id usualy onlt use my alt for taking care of asshats in ways they may or may not violate the TOS
Kooky Jetaime: Freak - Lets not mention the backlash that LL got the first time re age verification
Igel Hawks: I have two Alts, both are "normal" registered ALTs to my main account with the same Data.
XLR8RRICK Hudson: Torley you told everyone how to make Alt Accounts how come ?
Kii Lilliehook: The core is the trafic system - without it all these trafic and camping bots would disapear.
fr43k Paine: right Crimson but you also register stuff o nthe net such as game keys
Torley Linden: XLR8RRICK, where did I do that?
Torley Linden: Er, XL. ;)
XLR8RRICK Hudson: in a tutorial
Torley Linden: Which one, specifically?
Kooky Jetaime: I'm heading for Everett's place
XLR8RRICK Hudson: I would have to go look for it
Torley Linden: OK Kooky, say hi to him for me!
Jaymes Kjeller: A method that might work is to "unify" resident logins, and have resident "slots" that each account would have, such as 3 per account, or 5 per account. I'm not certain if it will help or not.
CrimsonWings Eun: like guild wars
Torley Linden: "Alts" are in themselves not inherently problematic. It's how they are *used*...
Torley Linden: there are many good and constructive usages for alts, like testing transactions and permissions.
Kooky Jetaime: Jaymes - as long as alts cost money, people will strive to keep them dis-sociated
fr43k Paine: True, but if they are banned from in world its harder to make up a new one
Kooky Jetaime waves and poofs
CeeJay Tigerpaw: I needed an alt for a project I am doing in-world, so I made one, gave it a name as close to mine as I could get, and introduced it to some of my friends.
Jaymes Kjeller: You mean one alt logged in at a time?
Torley Linden: Jaymes, long ago we limited alts but there are too many ways around it. Most people with alts don't cause problems. Again, "a few people make poor use of a tool" and it detrimentally impacts, at least in perception, the majority.
fr43k Paine: Take care Kooky
Igel Hawks: byes
Sakura Hullabaloo: bye Kooky
Jaymes Kjeller: That is true, sadly. There might not be a way without impacting the majority.
Igel Hawks: Yeah.
XLR8RRICK Hudson: oh how time flies when your having fun
Jei Desoto: Yeah... the majority of any situation shouldn't be punished for the minority causing problems.
Kii Lilliehook: having an alt is like having several email adresses - not a problem of itself.
XLR8RRICK Hudson: its been a Slice guys good OH
Torley Linden: Even before Copybot, does anyone remember "prim mirror" tools which had perfectly legitimate usages for helping people mirror their *own* content? But then word gets out and imaginations run wild, and even logic shudders in the face of gaping emotion.
CrimsonWings Eun: im heading to the open source meeting in an hour
Jaymes Kjeller: Most things in life can be used and abused.
Torley Linden: Yup, even pillows can be used to smother. They have.
CrimsonWings Eun: lol PNs still ahve a working copybot
fr43k Paine: Well, I have no idea what kidn of methods LL uses but I work as volunteer for another wb community too and they use a blacklist of mail providers IE so you cant join if you use one of those "throw way" mail adresses
fr43k Paine: Right Jaymes
CrimsonWings Eun: i havent had a chance to mess with it yet though
fr43k Paine: Sad but true
CrimsonWings Eun: i was goan sk linden permission first
CrimsonWings Eun: ask*
Torley Linden: It got so quiet suddenly!
Jaymes Kjeller: Some online communities do not allow you to use Hotmail, AOL Mail and so on.
Torley Linden: Ah yes Jaymes, I've seen some of those.
Roxanne Questi: Torley?
fr43k Paine: they do Jaymes
Torley Linden: "Free email providers aren't allowed."
JetZep Zabelin: Torley when I was denied admin status, then left admin it said my level was set to 200. is that supposed to be this way?
Torley Linden: Yes Roxanne?
Igel Hawks: I have also a working copybot. But I dont use it for other things then my own learnuing things
Torley Linden: JetZep, yes, it doesn't really give you admin status.
JetZep Zabelin: ok
fr43k Paine: its just not aloowed to register wioth such mail accounts as...no idea dgflsg@throwaeaymail.com
JetZep Zabelin: =)
Jaymes Kjeller: It's sad, but sometimes, it has to be done.
Roxanne Questi: Did i hear somewhere that another educational group is starting?
Torley Linden: Hmm that's kinda vague Roxanne?
Stephen Posaner: fr43k what about gmail
Roxanne Questi: a la NCI
CrimsonWings Eun: the ones the PNs have is nice it coppies an object perfectly munis scripts and textures but the build is a perfect identical match
Torley Linden: There are a lot of groups now like NCI, but certainly, NCI is one of the most popular.
Kii Lilliehook: you can always create a perfect reasonable sounding account at one of those freemailers - and you can't block them, otherwise you would block too muich possible users.
fr43k Paine: Dont know their limit
CrimsonWings Eun: hey torley
Torley Linden: Technology is no match for human error.
Torley Linden: Yes CrimsonWings?
fr43k Paine: Stephen...if you cna make up as many alternate adresses as you want to...ok then I`d realyl be for the ID card stuff
JetZep Zabelin: and not all free accounts are resource abusing freeloaders, some of us are just poor artists =P
CrimsonWings Eun: you think the lindans will let me use the PNs copybot for intelectual porposes only?
CrimsonWings Eun: id just love to see how it works
Stephen Posaner: yes if you play the cards right
Jaymes Kjeller: Or, as it's often said. "Artifical inteligence is no match for Natual Stupidity."
CrimsonWings Eun: the thing is i have to use their shoopedlife for it to work
fr43k Paine: Crimson, yo ucan get vids of that on YouTube...
Kii Lilliehook: and then they got your login data. clever.
CrimsonWings Eun: vids dont do it for me, i wana actualy use it
fr43k Paine: lol, k
CrimsonWings Eun: lol thats what throwaway alts are for
Torley Linden: CrimsonWings: I can't speculate, but Copybot is problematic if you use it to violate Community Standards/Terms of Service.
Torley Linden: LOL Jaymes, that's a great one.
CrimsonWings Eun: and no, they dont do that too many non PNs use it for lulz
CrimsonWings Eun: i was only gona copy my stuff anyways
CeeJay Tigerpaw: Hey, there is more to A.I. than just running bots.
CrimsonWings Eun: as i said id have to use shoopedlife and i realy dont feel like getting mac or IP banned for it
Torley Linden: There's also the GTeam Office Hours if you'd like to ask them specifically about governance/abuse issues.
CrimsonWings Eun: but thats not till next week >,>
Torley Linden: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Office_Hours
Torley Linden: Next week? That's just a few days! ;)
CrimsonWings Eun: i was lookinga t that earlier
CeeJay Tigerpaw: SL is a wonderful development environment for AIs that might tackle Turing-test kind of capability in-world.
CrimsonWings Eun: ill be busy this weekend
fr43k Paine: IP adress ban makes no sense Crimson...I`d reset my router to get a new one..
Torley Linden: I like to see "AIs" in action and interacting with people...
CrimsonWings Eun: lol thats an IP a mac address in a bit harder to spoof
Torley Linden: Whoa Ellla, I just noticed there's three "l"'s in your name!
CeeJay Tigerpaw: Torley, do you know of any good AIs of that kind in-world?
Kii Lilliehook: and mac ban makes no sense as well. you just change your clinet to create a new one every time.
Torley Linden: CeeJay: Not currently... there were some awhile ago... but I'm not up to speed with the latest.
CrimsonWings Eun: lol welcome to the theory behind shooped life
Magnet Homewood: /thats because she's delllliciois :)
Ellla McMahon: LOL yes Torley ... I WANTED the name !!!
Torley Linden: Hehehe.
Ellla McMahon: and it does make people smile sometimes
Torley Linden: :)
Ellla McMahon: :)
Magnet Homewood: /or some word vaguely similar
Igel Hawks: :D
fr43k Paine: ^.^
Sakura Hullabaloo: :)
JetZep Zabelin: maybe there can be "bots" that are like having a sim, a pc comes with and its a special "npc" o/s kinda thing
CeeJay Tigerpaw: I have a patched version of the client with a socket interface to a Lisp interpreter; I am trying to create a convincing AI driver for a quad avatar -- no speech, but maybe the purring test, not the Turing test, for a feline avatar...
JetZep Zabelin: SL NPC
Torley Linden: Oooh.
JetZep Zabelin: ppl pay a monthly and they could sell them to other resi's =D
Torley Linden: Multi-limbs!
Torley Linden: I wonder who still comes into Second Life and thinks that everyone else is a bot...
Torley Linden: I remember that used to be more of a common question.
Igel Hawks: hehe
CeeJay Tigerpaw: The point is not multi-limbs, but ducking the issue of speech recognition, which is mess.
Torley Linden: CeeJay: Oh, true.
JetZep Zabelin: hehe everyon's bots and alts
fr43k Paine: A lot of ppl...truest me I got a lot of weird comments from friends when I told them I`m in SL
Jaymes Kjeller: I know this might be going off topic, but remember when I said that I thought that there was no such thing as Tri-Core processors? Turns out that AMD do a tri-core version of their Phenom processors.
Igel Hawks: I expected that every Linden is a bot and has partnership with Phil Linden
CeeJay Tigerpaw: I use the built-in AO drivers for the quad, but try to make, e.g., my tiger behave like a real animal.
Stephen Posaner: forgive me what exactly is "shoopedLife'?
CrimsonWings Eun: its a version of SL that bypasses every known banning method
Stephen Posaner: ok
CrimsonWings Eun: the patriotic nigras use it to hop right back into sl after getting banned
CeeJay Tigerpaw: With SL to provide sensory information and locomotion in software, I can concentrate on writing code for higher-level brain function.
CeeJay Tigerpaw: And I am now shutting up!
JetZep Zabelin: its another client to connect to the grid , right?
CrimsonWings Eun: yup
Jei Desoto: It'd be nice to have even the ability to have NPCs that are more "object" based... Using the avatar mesh and animation capibilities however might make it a fast addition/change and might cause problems... So i'm sure it's take some discussion and brainstorm... But you have them use shaped and things avatars already use by having them in their object contents whould be nifty...
CrimsonWings Eun: http://shoopedlife.nexisonline.net/wiki/Main_Page
Stephen Posaner: thier is always a footprint
Torley Linden: Jei, ah yes, we did have a project along those lines...
Torley Linden: but, it was cancelled in favor of greater stability/performance projects.
Jei Desoto: shapes*
CrimsonWings Eun: :O he changed the shooped life page, looks alot nicer now
Torley Linden: There are so many cool things I know we want to get to. Not enough resources to get to ALL of them but we continue to hire.
CrimsonWings Eun: hire me!
Kii Lilliehook: concerning the turing test, I like this: http://www.dilbert.com/strips/comic/2008-03-30/
Torley Linden: CrimsonWings, http://lindenlab.com/employment :)
Stephen Posaner: I dont want to be tied down to a single location for more time than it is worth
CrimsonWings Eun: lol yea i have been there
CrimsonWings Eun: im currently trying to get into the mentor program first
Torley Linden: It's been good having you all here with me today! Pardon, I've got to go for now.
Magnet Homewood: /bye all (and may I just coin the phrase: Torley - the Wicked Witch of the Watermelon)
Torley Linden: Best of hope with that CrimsonWings. :)
Ellla McMahon: thank you Torley ... bye everyone ... Have FUN !!!!
Jei Desoto: Have a good day : )
Torley Linden: Hope you each and all have a lovely day!
fr43k Paine: Have a great day Torley, thanks for hosting :)
Sakura Hullabaloo: Thank you Torley, same to you!
Jaymes Kjeller: See you Torley! Have a good day!
CeeJay Tigerpaw: CUL Torley.
Stephen Posaner: peace torley plesure finaly meeting u in-world
Kii Lilliehook: bye!
JetZep Zabelin: bye Torley !
Torley Linden: Bye Ellla, Jei, fr43k, Sakura, Jaymes, CeeJay, Stephen, Kii, JetZep, everyone! :D
Igel Hawks: Hmmm, my night is allready running here :D
Jei Desoto: Don't work to hard, enless it's just that fun! : D