User:Which Linden/Office Hours/2010 Feb 18

Thanks to Saijanai Kuhn for salvaging this transcript after I trashed my own copy of it.

• [2010/02/18 11:06] Which Linden: hey there
• [2010/02/18 11:06] Morgaine Dinova: Hi Which. Welcome to Customer Complaints.
• [2010/02/18 11:06] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: LOL.
• [2010/02/18 11:07] Enkidu Linden: hello!
• [2010/02/18 11:07] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Which, can we have your confirm that this sim -won't- retart during the hour? ;)
• [2010/02/18 11:07] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: restart*
• [2010/02/18 11:07] Morgaine Dinova: Which: any idea whether Zero's sekrit project for 3-5 years hence will involved transparent upgrading of regions?
• [2010/02/18 11:08] Morgaine Dinova: Hiya Enk :-)
• [2010/02/18 11:08] Which Linden: Morgaine: I have no idea what Zero's up to
• [2010/02/18 11:08] Which Linden: Sahkolihaa: uh, hopefully not!
• [2010/02/18 11:08] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Hehehe.
• [2010/02/18 11:08] Which Linden: I don't think there's really any way to know
• [2010/02/18 11:08] Morgaine Dinova: Which: how can you have no idea what Zero is up to, when it impacts on your future?
• [2010/02/18 11:09] Morgaine Dinova: *TELL* him what he must do.
• [2010/02/18 11:09] Which Linden: Morgaine: ha ha ha, I'm not the boss of him
• [2010/02/18 11:09] Which Linden: I'm not the President of his work :)
• [2010/02/18 11:09] Which Linden: About the rolling restarts, "please understand that this action is being taken to protect against in world content."
• [2010/02/18 11:09] Morgaine Dinova: The company is too small to have an impersonal infrastructure development division.
• [2010/02/18 11:10] Gambino Amsterdam: hi
• [2010/02/18 11:10] Which Linden: You gotta protect yourself from that inworld content!
• [2010/02/18 11:10] Dahlia Trimble: hi :)
• [2010/02/18 11:10] Which Linden: Hi Dahlia
• [2010/02/18 11:10] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Which - the steps to produce the no-transfer exploit is on a pastebin website. After reading and testing it on prims, how in the world did LL miss it?
• [2010/02/18 11:10] Morgaine Dinova: Which: read your Tao of Linden! You are the boss of him, in part!
• [2010/02/18 11:11] Morgaine Dinova: Unless the Tao has been repealed.
• [2010/02/18 11:11] Questar Utu: I'm actually wondering how anyone else missed it.. I havn't heard of that exploit being used until now.
• [2010/02/18 11:11] Enkidu Linden: haha
• [2010/02/18 11:11] Morgaine Dinova: waves at Dahlia
• [2010/02/18 11:11] Which Linden: I don't think the Tao ever said anything about bossing each other around -- if anything it's quite individualistic
• [2010/02/18 11:11] Dahlia Trimble: waves back
• [2010/02/18 11:12] Which Linden: Maybe the security issue is new, and thus no one messed around with it until recently?
• [2010/02/18 11:12] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Most likely.
• [2010/02/18 11:12] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: It's too simple to have been here for ages.
• [2010/02/18 11:12] Which Linden: I was reminded of this article about the dyslexic spy who wrote codes
• [2010/02/18 11:12] Questar Utu: Seems like it would have existed since the enabling of group object grabbing.
• [2010/02/18 11:12] Which Linden: Took the cryptanalyst two weeks to discover that he spy was using ROT13
• [2010/02/18 11:12] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: o_o
• [2010/02/18 11:12] Dahlia Trimble: lol
• [2010/02/18 11:12] Morgaine Dinova: Well the Tao can be summarized as "Everyone has a say". That means that you can have input on Zero's plans if you want, and he cannot reject them (unless they're flawed).
• [2010/02/18 11:13] Dahlia Trimble: i remember rot13
• [2010/02/18 11:13] Which Linden: That was half of the message
• [2010/02/18 11:13] Which Linden: The other half was a bunch of numbers
• [2010/02/18 11:13] Which Linden: Which turned out to be coordinates in plaintext
• [2010/02/18 11:14] Which Linden: Like, really? Really. Plaintext.
• [2010/02/18 11:15] Dahlia Trimble: I remember ppl used to use rot13 in usenet a lot, for mildly inappropriate postings
• [2010/02/18 11:15] Which Linden: [1]
• [2010/02/18 11:16] Which Linden: maybe I'm mischaraterizing it, see for yourself
• [2010/02/18 11:18] Which Linden: So, Morgaine, I feel that you're misrepresenting the Tao. One of the tenets is certainly "work together"
• [2010/02/18 11:19] Which Linden: I certainly thing a robust conversation is an important part of that
• [2010/02/18 11:19] Questar Utu: Blasted internet.
• [2010/02/18 11:19] Which Linden: I also think that a riddling of typos is an important part of that
• [2010/02/18 11:20] Which Linden: Making good choices is another, and being transparent is a third
• [2010/02/18 11:20] Which Linden: To some degree these are restatements of each other
• [2010/02/18 11:20] Enkidu Linden: we also try to walk in customers' shoes
• [2010/02/18 11:20] Enkidu Linden: which is why you sometimes find yourself without your shoes
• [2010/02/18 11:20] Which Linden: Especially if they're sexy stilettos
• [2010/02/18 11:20] Which Linden: ha ha ha
• [2010/02/18 11:21] Which Linden: We also walk in your inventory. Sorry about that
• [2010/02/18 11:22] Dahlia Trimble: my shoes are mostly copyable :)
• [2010/02/18 11:22] Which Linden: It doesn't say "Walk in *a copy* of our Residents' shoes", now does it :)
• [2010/02/18 11:23] Dahlia Trimble: they're digital shoes, noboby should be able to tell the difference
• [2010/02/18 11:24] Enkidu Linden: it's the principle!
• [2010/02/18 11:24] Which Linden: We would know, in our hearts
• [2010/02/18 11:24] Morgaine Dinova: compliments Which on ridlingd of typso
• [2010/02/18 11:24] Morgaine Dinova: "It's the taste!", /me reads from this pack of tea
• [2010/02/18 11:26] Enkidu Linden: what'd you guys talk about last week?
• [2010/02/18 11:26] Enkidu Linden: i missed out. but i got forty lashings
• [2010/02/18 11:26] Morgaine Dinova: Oh nice!
• [2010/02/18 11:26] Techwolf Lupindo: grins
• [2010/02/18 11:26] Techwolf Lupindo: I shoujld have used my claws also for that.
• [2010/02/18 11:27] Which Linden: So yeah, I think the Tao is more about providing principles that ensure that when you make a decision, you're doing so with the best knowledge you can get, and with the lowest risk of tromping on the toes of others
• [2010/02/18 11:27] Which Linden: enkidu: we talked about http-in
• [2010/02/18 11:27] Which Linden: I think we filed an enhancement request for it
• [2010/02/18 11:28] Morgaine Dinova: No. It's simply about people having a say in what will affect them. And nobody acting as elite.
• [2010/02/18 11:29] Dahlia Trimble: on the subject of http, does anyone know if there are any practical limits to how long a URL can be for a GET? (besides the limit in LSL)
• [2010/02/18 11:29] Enkidu Linden: yeah
• [2010/02/18 11:30] Enkidu Linden: i do
• [2010/02/18 11:30] Which Linden: There aren't any standardized limits, but Apache limits them to 8k
• [2010/02/18 11:30] Enkidu Linden: MSIE also limits them
• [2010/02/18 11:30] Dahlia Trimble: 8k would be plenty :)
• [2010/02/18 11:30] Morgaine Dinova: A key element of the Tao (not written) is actually traceability, just like in engineering. There should be a process to ensure that issues raised are actually dealt with to satisfaction, not dismissed with a wave, not forgotten.
• [2010/02/18 11:30] Dahlia Trimble: IE does?
• [2010/02/18 11:30] Enkidu Linden: not sure about IE8, but older versions limited to 2k
• [2010/02/18 11:30] Dahlia Trimble: hmmm
• [2010/02/18 11:30] Dahlia Trimble: well 3k would probably work too
• [2010/02/18 11:31] Dahlia Trimble: *2k
• [2010/02/18 11:31] Dahlia Trimble: ty :)
• [2010/02/18 11:31] Morgaine Dinova: No spec limit then?
• [2010/02/18 11:31] Enkidu Linden: no spec limit
• [2010/02/18 11:31] ZenMondo Wormser: what is the LSL limit?
• [2010/02/18 11:31] Which Linden: "If your url lasts for longer than 4k, consult a physician"
• [2010/02/18 11:31] Enkidu Linden: but if your GET url is 8k, maybe you're doing something you shouldn't
• [2010/02/18 11:31] Dahlia Trimble: i think it's 2k, but I wasnt talking LSL
• [2010/02/18 11:32] Which Linden: For LSL I imagine that the limit is much shorter
• [2010/02/18 11:32] Which Linden: Since the body limit is 2k
• [2010/02/18 11:32] Dahlia Trimble: I need to send a lot of small messages, and I'm having reliablily problems with POST
• [2010/02/18 11:32] Morgaine Dinova: bit.ly would of course love people to use unlimited URL lengths :P
• [2010/02/18 11:33] Enkidu Linden: what are the symptoms?
• [2010/02/18 11:33] Dahlia Trimble: server ... something :/
• [2010/02/18 11:34] Dahlia Trimble: all I get is a few exception messages in an underlying library
• [2010/02/18 11:34] Dahlia Trimble: cant trace it
• [2010/02/18 11:34] Enkidu Linden: are the requests made by a browser or something else?
• [2010/02/18 11:35] Dahlia Trimble: Im not sure, it's a unity3d plugin, I think it uses some of the browser's http stack
• [2010/02/18 11:35] Dahlia Trimble: but I think the errors are server side
• [2010/02/18 11:36] Jonathan Yap: Can you employ a network sniffer to watch packets?
• [2010/02/18 11:36] Dahlia Trimble: yep could do that
• [2010/02/18 11:36] Which Linden: Wireshark FTGW
• [2010/02/18 11:36] Which Linden: not sure what that G is doing in there
• [2010/02/18 11:36] Dahlia Trimble: lol
• [2010/02/18 11:37] Enkidu Linden: g is for grand
• [2010/02/18 11:37] Which Linden: So hey, is anyone paying attention to the python world? Did you know that Eventlet is approaching 1.0?
• [2010/02/18 11:37] Questar Utu: k is for kilo, which referrs to 1000 as well. :p
• [2010/02/18 11:37] Enkidu Linden: i did!
• [2010/02/18 11:37] Dahlia Trimble: not lately, anything new?
• [2010/02/18 11:38] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: The only thing I have to monitor regarding Python is the install on my Linux system. xP
• [2010/02/18 11:38] Morgaine Dinova: Which: does that mean that Eventlet will finally work relaibly on Windows?
• [2010/02/18 11:38] Morgaine Dinova: Enus was complaining about it
• [2010/02/18 11:38] Which Linden: Morgaine: he was??? I added an entire module to address that for him?
• [2010/02/18 11:38] Which Linden:  !
• [2010/02/18 11:39] Morgaine Dinova: Oh, well maybe that fixed it, hehe :-)
• [2010/02/18 11:39] Which Linden: But yeah, uh, windows compatibility is something that is still being worked on
• [2010/02/18 11:39] Which Linden: It would help if someone who actually used Windows could provide development help
• [2010/02/18 11:39] Which Linden: As it is I have to fire up a VM
• [2010/02/18 11:39] Morgaine Dinova: Nobody uses Windows, so that's a long shot
• [2010/02/18 11:39] Morgaine Dinova: ducks
• [2010/02/18 11:39] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Questar does but he's not into that type of coding. :p
• [2010/02/18 11:40] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Or well, Python in general.
• [2010/02/18 11:40] Enkidu Linden: i don't have windows either
• [2010/02/18 11:40] Enkidu Linden: not at home, anyway
• [2010/02/18 11:40] Morgaine Dinova: Enk++ !!!
• [2010/02/18 11:40] Which Linden: Wouldn't want the wife to see that
• [2010/02/18 11:40] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: hehe, nice to hear another Linden who doesn't use Windows.
• [2010/02/18 11:40] Questar Utu: I could be, but I just don't have the means to learn it.
• [2010/02/18 11:40] Dahlia Trimble: I use windows and I use python but I dont know anything about eventlet
• [2010/02/18 11:41] Dahlia Trimble: (maybe I should be ducking?) lol
• [2010/02/18 11:42] Dahlia Trimble: prepares to teleport to safely...
• [2010/02/18 11:42] Which Linden: It's a networking/greenthreading library
• [2010/02/18 11:42] Which Linden: For highly-scalable web applications
• [2010/02/18 11:42] Dahlia Trimble: kewl
• [2010/02/18 11:42] Which Linden: Which are probably not as scalable on Windows
• [2010/02/18 11:43] Dahlia Trimble: would it work with something like panda3d? I think they implement their own greenish threads
• [2010/02/18 11:43] Enkidu Linden: pwn!
• [2010/02/18 11:44] Dahlia Trimble: to sync them with the frame loop or something
• [2010/02/18 11:45] Which Linden: I don't know anything about panda3d
• [2010/02/18 11:46] Dahlia Trimble: it's a open source game engine with python scripting. Pretty nice actually
• [2010/02/18 11:46] Which Linden: [2]
• [2010/02/18 11:46] Morgaine Dinova: Comes from Disney, by some miracle they open-sourced it.
• [2010/02/18 11:46] Which Linden: looks like they just have their own implementation of OS threads
• [2010/02/18 11:47] Dahlia Trimble: [3]
• [2010/02/18 11:47] Which Linden: whoa so panda's kind of an OGRE competitor?
• [2010/02/18 11:48] Dahlia Trimble: competitor? hmmm
• [2010/02/18 11:48] Dahlia Trimble: I think it's more feature rich than ogre
• [2010/02/18 11:48] Dahlia Trimble: and easier to use
• [2010/02/18 11:49] Dahlia Trimble: probably not as flexible with materials as ogre tho
• [2010/02/18 11:51] Which Linden: Lots of options for the 3D programmer who knows Python, though
• [2010/02/18 11:52] Dahlia Trimble: ya I found panda a lot easier to get running than pyogre
• [2010/02/18 11:52] Which Linden: Cool! Glad to see there's a diverse set of options
• [2010/02/18 11:53] Which Linden: But back to eventlet
• [2010/02/18 11:53] Which Linden: It uses greenthreads, which have a similar API to regular threads, but cooperatively yield
• [2010/02/18 11:53] Which Linden: So there are fewer race conditions
• [2010/02/18 11:53] Which Linden: And More control
• [2010/02/18 11:54] Which Linden: But it's best for I/O intensive applications because they are all in the same process
• [2010/02/18 11:54] Which Linden: They are coroutines
• [2010/02/18 11:54] Dahlia Trimble: ys iy'd nice to not have to worry about locking
• [2010/02/18 11:54] Which Linden: Yeah exactly
• [2010/02/18 11:54] Dahlia Trimble: *ya it's
• [2010/02/18 11:55] Which Linden: See now you're getting into the spirit of this typos thing!
• [2010/02/18 11:55] Dahlia Trimble: Im good at it :D
• [2010/02/18 11:55] Dahlia Trimble: I cant see either, so I read typos even if they arent there ;)
• [2010/02/18 11:56] Dahlia Trimble: *see to well
• [2010/02/18 11:56] Which Linden: I'm going to be at Pycon for the next week; I may not be able to attend next week's OH
• [2010/02/18 11:56] Dahlia Trimble: where's pycon?
• [2010/02/18 11:57] Which Linden: Atlanta
• [2010/02/18 11:57] Second Life: Your region will restart in 5 minutes and 0 seconds for maintenance.
• [2010/02/18 11:57] Morgaine Dinova: Threads with shared state are a disaster, no doubt about that. But threads without shared state (ie. system processes) don't have the same horrific concurrency problems, so they should be used wherever possible.
• [2010/02/18 11:57] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Eeep.
• [2010/02/18 11:57] Which Linden: ha ha! region restart!
• [2010/02/18 11:57] Morgaine Dinova: Eeep
• [2010/02/18 11:57] Which Linden: good timing
• [2010/02/18 11:57] Enkidu Linden: we're doomed!
• [2010/02/18 11:57] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Just at the end, heh.
• [2010/02/18 11:57] Which Linden: Thanks to my contacts on the inside
• [2010/02/18 11:57] Enkidu Linden: i bet it's zero
• [2010/02/18 11:57] Dahlia Trimble: sorry I hogged the meeting, but time to tp away. Bye all :)
• [2010/02/18 11:58] Which Linden: It's handy if you're on an awkward date. "Oh sorry, region restarting! Oh weird I couldn't TP to your location afterward! Oh well IRL LOL!"
• [2010/02/18 11:58] Morgaine Dinova: Question for Which/Enki: is Zero working on transparent region upgrading in his 3-5 year plan? If not ... remember the Tao, and have your say.
• [2010/02/18 11:58] Dahlia Trimble: lol
• [2010/02/18 11:58] Which Linden: Morgaine: I'll have to look into that
• [2010/02/18 11:58] Morgaine Dinova: (Rhetorical)
• [2010/02/18 11:59] Second Life: Your region will restart in 3 minutes and 0 seconds for maintenance.
• [2010/02/18 11:59] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Time to poof.
• [2010/02/18 11:59] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Thanks for having us, Which & Enkidu.
• [2010/02/18 11:59] Which Linden: Thanks for stopping by!
• [2010/02/18 11:59] Enkidu Linden: bye everyone!
• [2010/02/18 11:59] Morgaine Dinova: Gotta love doubleclick TP :P
• [2010/02/18 11:59] Morgaine Dinova: See you Which / Enki :-)
• [2010/02/18 12:00] Which Linden: Catch ya laters!