User:Whump Linden/Office Hours/Transcript 20080917

[13:31] Connecting to: in-world Voice Chat...
[13:31] Xugu Madison: evening
[13:31] Connected undefined:
[13:32] Whump Linden: Linden: Howdy.
[13:32] Xugu Madison: So... what did you do with the rest of the gridnauts. Teleport "accident", claim on the insurance, right?
[13:32] Whump Linden: Linden: Infinity is out of the office today, so she won't be able to answer questions about the LLSD part of the spec.
[13:33] Xugu Madison: nods
[13:33] Whump Linden: Linden: I can still collect them, however.
[13:33] Whump Linden: Linden: I don't think it's a teleport accident. Everyone may be drinking heavily because of the markets.
[13:34] Xugu Madison: Oddly, I trade, and they're not bothering me. Possibly because I've been standing on the sideline for a while going "Yikes, that looks painful"
[13:34] Xugu Madison: Oh, and it was LSL I was poking at, not LLSD :)
[13:35] Whump Linden: Linden: That's right. Who was asking about LLSD encodings?
[13:35] Xugu Madison: I have no idea, sorry :(
[13:35] Xugu Madison: I mostly blacked out when someone mentioned WSDL
[13:35] Whump Linden: Linden: asking on #gridnauts
[13:35] Whump Linden: Linden: lol
[13:36] Whump Linden: Linden: We can make Infinity blanche by mentioning CORBA.
[13:36] Xugu Madison: makes notes
[13:37] Xugu Madison: hmms at his notes "Does Babbage turn up to any office hours, BTW? Beyond stuff we could do with for OGP, I'd like to talk general LSL structure and design with them..."
[13:38] Whump Linden: Linden: Probably better off dropping him a notecard asking after that.
[13:38] OGP Teleport: UML Sequence Diagram: Cross-circuiting to B is critical here, Captain.
[13:38] Xugu Madison: Wil do
[13:38] Xugu Madison: Right now, mostly I don't want to ask about a few minor things if there's major changes in plan
[13:38] Xugu Madison: and if there's not major changes in plan, I'd like to start some :-D
[13:38] Whump Linden: Linden: That's with respect to LLSD?
[13:39] Xugu Madison: LSL
[13:39] Whump Linden: Linden: er, LSL.
[13:39] Whump Linden: Linden: damned acronyms
[13:39] Whump Linden: Linden: they are the death of me
[13:39] Xugu Madison: My main thing right now, for LSL and OGP, though, is can we have llGetRegionKey() and teleport methods that take in region keys instead of names please?
[13:40] Xugu Madison: As it stands, llMapDestination is now a wonderfully confusing thing that opens different boxes depending on the relationship between the script and the avatar
[13:40] Xugu Madison: but that's another rant entirely
[13:40] Xugu Madison: (and I know, mostly he inherited this)
[13:41] Xugu Madison: looks around "well, I think we can say we waited, and no-one came. See you tomorrow at Zero's hour?"
[13:42] Whump Linden: Linden: To clarify, you're looking for ways to initiate teleport from script other than having to display a map and have the user figure out you have to click "Teleport" on the map display?
[13:42] Xugu Madison: For LSL, anything that takes region key instad of name is good
[13:42] Xugu Madison: more generally, though, yes
[13:43] Xugu Madison: Scripts now show a more useful "Where you're going" box if they're in an attachment, but I'd still like to be able to do things like click-to-teleport teleporters that can show that box
[13:43] Xugu Madison: "For OGP" even
[13:43] Xugu Madison: my turn to mess up acronyms :)
[13:44] Whump Linden: Linden: yes, initating OGP teleport from script, I think I'm following you
[13:44] Xugu Madison: Hey Teravus!
[13:44] Whump Linden: Linden: Hey Teravus.
[13:44] Whump Linden: Linden: It's a sparse OO today.
[13:44] Teravus Ousley: hmm
[13:45] Whump Linden: Linden: Hey Saji.
[13:45] Xugu Madison: There's been rumours of an llTeleportAgent() for _years_. Something like llTeleportAgent(<agent UUID>, <region UUID>, <position>, <rotation>) would be fantastic
[13:45] Teravus Ousley: are we not fantastically early?
[13:45] Teravus Ousley: checks
[13:45] Whump Linden: Linden: Nope, starts at 1:30.
[13:45] Teravus Ousley: hmm.
[13:46] Teravus Ousley: I was actually expecting it to be 2:30-3:30..
[13:46] Xugu Madison: Thing is, we need to start using region UUIDs for security, once we get outside of SL
[13:47] Whump Linden: Linden: So we need a way to ask about a region domain, and sim and get back a UUID?
[13:48] Xugu Madison: Yes
[13:48] Xugu Madison: I'm rather assuming that, as with OpenSim, SL has UUIDs for each region
[13:48] Xugu Madison: as names can't be considered universally unique identifiers :-D
[13:49] Whump Linden: Linden: yes, there are UUIDs, but again we're running into the issue mentioned in Zero's office hours about relying on UUIDs alone.
[13:49] Xugu Madison: The alternative is using public/private keys. Is it feasible to say "Teleport to the region that has the private key for this public key"?
[13:50] Whump Linden: Linden: That's the M0 trust that Teravus and Infinity have been talking about.
[13:50] Xugu Madison: I suppose I'm assuming that we're telling the grid we're on where to send us, and trusting it to figure out security
[13:50] Whump Linden: Linden: let me look up that page on the wiki
[13:51] Whump Linden: Linden: [1]
[13:52] Teravus Ousley: checks to make sure this video card isn't afflicted with the black dual monitor bug
[13:53] Xugu Madison: thinks
[13:53] Xugu Madison: would URIs for regions be a decent compromise, and handle security by them having to present an X.509 cert the client trusts?
[13:54] Xugu Madison: well, LSL later perhaps :-D
[13:54] Whump Linden: Linden: I think URLs are the right solution for identifying regions.
[13:55] Teravus Ousley: I would discuss instances.. and grid mode OGP.. but it seems there's just a documenter and two steampunk friends to hear it.
[13:55] Whump Linden: Linden: well, we can leave a documentation trail
[13:55] Saijanai Kuhn: welll, I'm behind on my spammage today, sorry
[13:55] Xugu Madison: I'm mostly here to absorb information, so do tell :)
[13:55] Whump Linden: Linden: and work with less interruptions
[13:55] Teravus Ousley: Ok
[13:55] Teravus Ousley: Well.. we have a bunch of 'stuff' in opensimulator
[13:56] Teravus Ousley: these are logical things.. which clear up exactly what we're talking about.. when we talk about things.
[13:56] Teravus Ousley: .. 'Instance' is one of those
[13:56] Teravus Ousley: We also have 'Server', and Sim
[13:57] Teravus Ousley: 'Server' refers to the hardware.. the operating system.. on the network..
[13:57] Teravus Ousley: 'Sim' refers to each individual region you have up
[13:57] Whump Linden: nods
[13:57] Xugu Madison: nodnods
[13:57] Teravus Ousley: and.. each 'Instance' is the process, OpenSim.exe, or mono OpenSim.exe respectively
[13:58] Teravus Ousley: Each 'Instance' of OpenSim.exe can host many sims.. and is on a Server
[13:58] Whump Linden: Linden: ah, okay
[13:58] Whump Linden: Linden: seperate threads for each sim or collections of threads?
[13:58] Teravus Ousley: Like.. for example.. Linden Class 5 Servers, host 4 sims
[13:59] Teravus Ousley: .... I'm not sure of much of the details beyond that as far as Linden Sims..
[13:59] Teravus Ousley: .. however.. in a single Instance of OpenSim.exe.. some people have hosted hundreds of sims
[14:00] Teravus Ousley: They had a lot of memory!
[14:00] Teravus Ousley: and the Instance used it!
[14:00] Xugu Madison: Can you give me an estimate, BTW? Speccing hardware soon
[14:00] Teravus Ousley: Well, it depends.. on a lot of factors.. and it hasn't been officially established yet because it seems ot migrate based on the revision
[14:01] Xugu Madison: okay
[14:01] Teravus Ousley: .. anyway.. as far as OGP is concerned.
[14:01] Teravus Ousley: .. In Standalone *and* Grid mode, you can have many sims on one instance
[14:01] Teravus Ousley: .. there's an add-region command
[14:02] Teravus Ousley: .. type it.. The name of the region.. and the name of the XML file to save in the bin/regions/ folder
[14:02] Teravus Ousley: .. it'll prompt you for the location and what not of it in opensim X, Y
[14:02] Teravus Ousley: and, if you're on a neighbor, you'll see it come up
[14:03] Teravus Ousley: .. now as far as OGP is concerned.. in Standalone.. you can walk around in any of the sims in your standalone instance.. and TP in.. or out
[14:03] Teravus Ousley: The OGP state information is kept in the Instance, so.. you can cross borders.. and teleport out any time you want.
[14:03] Teravus Ousley: In Grid mode.. many instances are connected via the grid
[14:04] Whump Linden: Linden: is that create-region instead of add-region?
[14:04] Teravus Ousley: hmm.. yes.. I think you're right.. it's create-region
[14:04] Teravus Ousley: It takes two parameters.
[14:04] Teravus Ousley: the name of the region, and the name of the XML file to save into bin/Regions
[14:05] Teravus Ousley: So.. that's the only difference between grid mode and standalone mode.. as far as the region is concerned.. you connect *many* instances together via the grid infrastructure
[14:05] Xugu Madison: nods\
[14:06] Teravus Ousley: In doing that.. it also allows you to have multiple servers with instances with sims talking
[14:06] Whump Linden: Linden: do you need a separate IP address for each region?
[14:06] Teravus Ousley: No, but you need a separate port
[14:06] Whump Linden: Linden: ah
[14:07] Whump Linden: Linden: oh, duh, that's what we do
[14:07] Whump Linden: Linden: sorry, I'm being slow
[14:07] Teravus Ousley: So when you teleport to a grid mode region with neighbors.. using OGP, the instance that you came in on has your OGP state information
[14:08] Teravus Ousley: ... if you cross off of that instance into a sim on another instance.. the second instance won't have your state information.
[14:08] Teravus Ousley: .. but the legacy teleport/border crossing code will let you do that..
[14:09] Teravus Ousley: You just won't be able to teleport using OGP until you return to a sim on the instance that you teleported in on.
[14:09] Teravus Ousley: That could be any of the sims hosted on that instance.
[14:09] Teravus Ousley: :D
[14:10] Whump Linden: Linden: I'm following, I think.
[14:10] Xugu Madison: So... is passing it around the grid feasible? Or failing that, would it make sense for the client to track?
[14:10] Teravus Ousley: Some people have two instances on the same server to try to limit the locking that the physics engine does.
[14:11] Teravus Ousley: Well, Xugu, the best option there would be for OGP to be implemented and enabled at the grid level.. that way the regions themselves could be blissfully ignorant of OGP
[14:12] Xugu Madison: ...but?
[14:12] Teravus Ousley: but?
[14:12] Teravus Ousley: :D
[14:12] Teravus Ousley: there is no but.. as far as I know :D
[14:12] Teravus Ousley: .. well.. maybe one
[14:13] Teravus Ousley: The 'but', is that there is no way to specify which region you teleport to.. over OGP
[14:13] Xugu Madison: oh, well, make it so then :-D
[14:13] Teravus Ousley: You specify the region domain.. but that could be any region in that region domain..
[14:13] Xugu Madison: Ah...
[14:13] Teravus Ousley: the word 'safe' comes in for destination
[14:13] Whump Linden: Linden: isn't that handled now by selecting on the port number?
[14:14] Xugu Madison: Okay, so if we push forwards identifying regions by URI, so I'd teleport to [2] ?
[14:14] Teravus Ousley: no, the http server runs 'per instance'
[14:14] Whump Linden: Linden: or do you mean x/y/z on the particulary sim?
[14:14] Saijanai Kuhn: seems to me we need both the name AND the coordinates
[14:14] Teravus Ousley: Well, take legacy grid login, for example
[14:15] Teravus Ousley: .. when signing in, you get a space to type a region name in
[14:15] Teravus Ousley: .. I use it all the time to go directly to the region that a meeting is being held on
[14:15] Whump Linden: Linden: yes, now I see, it.
[14:15] Teravus Ousley: My guess.. is by default.. that's filled with 'safe' where not specified
[14:16] Teravus Ousley: .. but the client normally specifies 'home' or 'last'
[14:16] Teravus Ousley: .. in the legacy login
[14:16] Whump Linden: Linden: I brought up a second sim on my running instance, and cannot get to it via [3] because there's no HTTP listening there.
[14:16] Saijanai Kuhn: right, but it supplies teh coordinates when you get specific
[14:16] Whump Linden: Linden: so we need a map service
[14:16] Teravus Ousley: right. the http server is per'instance'
[14:16] Teravus Ousley: it continues to run on 9000
[14:17] Teravus Ousley: Though.. you can get to your other sim by opening up the map and locating it. :D
[14:17] Teravus Ousley: .. or by walking across the border
[14:19] Teravus Ousley: And that's really it.. as far as instance
[14:19] Teravus Ousley: :D
[14:19] Whump Linden: Linden: so at the moment, even in standalone mode, you can only target one sim
[14:19] Teravus Ousley: right
[14:19] Teravus Ousley: right now, it's the first one that comes up.
[14:19] Whump Linden: Linden: whatever's in default.xml
[14:20] Teravus Ousley: usually, that's the first one. but not always.
[14:20] Whump Linden: Linden: okay
[14:20] Whump Linden: Linden: I've brought up a second sim on my instance
[14:21] Xugu Madison: Doesn't that cause chaos given we're assigning co-ordinates to OGP regions, which may not match the location of the first region that comes up?
[14:21] Whump Linden: Linden: when I try walking over to it, I end up walking off the edge of the world
[14:21] Whump Linden: Linden: It could.
[14:21] Whump Linden: Linden: at the moment you have to still coordinate with the global map.
[14:21] Teravus Ousley: all regions on your instance need to be unique with regards to OGP
[14:22] Teravus Ousley: if you have a neighbor, you need to ensure that your neighbor does not conflict with someone else's region
[14:22] Teravus Ousley: otherwise.. you'll get weird client artifiacts
[14:23] Teravus Ousley: Often times walking off the edge of the world means the port isn't open.. or something simple like that at the router
[14:23] Teravus Ousley: internal IP/External Host.. etc
[14:23] Whump Linden: Linden: oh, yes
[14:23] Whump Linden: Linden: there's a bit of hackery with respect to EC2 I need to do
[14:25] Whump Linden: Linden: Yes, now it's behaving.
[14:26] Saijanai Kuhn: Whump, I'd like to ask a minor nuts and bolts question before you leave
[14:26] Teravus Ousley: :D
[14:27] Whump Linden: Linden: Teravus, this is excellent, thanks for walking through this.
[14:27] Teravus Ousley: my pleasure.
[14:27] Whump Linden: Linden: I'd like to look at map/atlas stuff soon, and this is a great use case.
[14:27] Xugu Madison: Yes, extremely useful!
[14:27] Whump Linden: Linden: Saij?
[14:27] Saijanai Kuhn: don't forget to include SIgnpost marvin in any discussion
[14:28] Saijanai Kuhn: OK, well, in pyogp we're calling a cap a few times to keep prsence on teh AD
[14:28] Saijanai Kuhn: it seems to have about a 20 second delay before it returns
[14:29] Saijanai Kuhn: I'm doing a real primitive GUI without threading. Was wondering if I could get away with calling it once ever 22 seconds. Otehrwise, I'll need to implement threading
[14:29] Saijanai Kuhn: or figure out how to do non-blaocking calls in Tao's code
[14:30] Whump Linden: Linden: Let me ask Leyla about that.
[14:30] Saijanai Kuhn: KK
[14:30] Whump Linden: Linden: Do you want to eventually have threading or use eventlet?
[14:30] Saijanai Kuhn: any and all. Just for now, I'm calling all networking off of a timer event from teh window to keep it simple
[14:31] Whump Linden: Linden: okay, I'll ask Leyla, I'm suppose to meet up with her and go over beta bugs next.
[14:31] Saijanai Kuhn: great. I'll be on irc if you want to drop me a message
[14:32] Whump Linden: Linden: BTW, I now have two sims on my instance. Which is pretty cool. I'll need to generate some land to go with it.
[14:32] Xugu Madison: I need to run, take care all!
[14:32] Whump Linden: Linden: 'night Xugu.
[14:32] Teravus Ousley: nighters :D
[14:32] Saijanai Kuhn: whump I was late, can you handle the transcript or send me a notecard?
[14:32] Whump Linden: Linden: Saij, do you want me to drop the transcript in a notecard for you?
[14:33] Saijanai Kuhn: sure, I'll run it through the wikifier and post it for you
[14:33] Whump Linden: Linden: cool. thanks

User:Whump Linden/Office Hours/Transcript 20080917

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