User:Whump Linden/Office Hours/Transcript 20081008

[13:30] Connecting to: in-world Voice Chat...
[13:30] Connected undefined:
[13:31] Whump Linden: Hey folks.
[13:31] Teravus Ousley: Hello
[13:31] Xugu Madison: hi!
[13:31] Tegg Bode: no it means I'm a L21 builder, 21 months in SL™ and <Roo Clan> it's a dig at WoW :)
[13:31] Teravus Ousley: ahh
[13:31] Whump Linden: I like the light up exclamation point.
[13:32] Teravus Ousley: hehe, <T> was a joke.. since we're having the Mono Team as special guests today
[13:32] Whump Linden: Hey Peripase.
[13:32] Periapse Linden: howdy
[13:32] Teravus Ousley: Hello Peripase
[13:32] Whump Linden: Thanks for coming to OGPB OO.
[13:32] Tegg Bode: That's the wow icon that's above NPC's that says they are quest givers :)
[13:33] Teravus Ousley: ahh. Ok. hehe.. I just thought it was a good opportunity to joke about RooClan being a type in the Generic L21 Builder
[13:33] Whump Linden: Periapse managed the Mono beta.
[13:34] Tegg Bode: Lol Unfortunately I couldn't fit anything longer into the titler :)
[13:34] Whump Linden: So this is a special arrangement thing today, as the Open team is not directly involved in Mono and LSL, but there's enough interest on the interop front.
[13:35] Whump Linden: Okay, Periapse, did you want to go first, or I can deal with some administrivia.
[13:35] Periapse Linden: go ahead. Is rob linden coming?
[13:35] Teravus Ousley: So, I guess from the OpenSim standpoint, is there going to be a magic Interface definition that we can use to load the CIL?
[13:35] Tegg Bode: Cool, honestly I really haven't tried compiling any scripts in mono yet I had a bad experience when it first came out on 1.21.1 it locked up my PC
[13:35] Whump Linden: Periapse, I didn't get a hold of him in time.
[13:36] Xugu Madison: Oddly, Mono's always worked great for me
[13:36] Periapse Linden: kk. Well, without either the lsl dev team or rob from open source, I won't be able to make any promises, only take ideas and concerns back to the team(s)
[13:37] Periapse Linden: whump, did you want to deal with any admin stuff firs?
[13:38] Whump Linden: sure
[13:38] Whump Linden: let me do that while folks stream in
[13:39] Whump Linden: first Leyla and I did a JIRA triage this morning.
[13:39] Saijanai Kuhn: hey Peri
[13:39] Periapse Linden: 'allo Sai
[13:39] Whump Linden: We're at seven open issues.
[13:40] Whump Linden: Two of those are fix pending code review, and getting together with an OpenSim dev to do the intergration.
[13:40] Whump Linden: Teravus, would you have time tomorrow to do a sprint?
[13:40] Whump Linden: Those fixes will also require a viewer change.
[13:41] Teravus Ousley: Yes, though I'm on call for network issues if they occur in 1st life. Chances are, nothing will obstruct it.
[13:41] Whump Linden: KK
[13:41] Whump Linden: I can get interested parties a viewer build later today.
[13:42] Lillie Yifu: hihi
[13:42] Lillie Yifu: for what whump?
[13:42] Whump Linden: Lillie: updated viewer with the changes for the 'derez' messages.
[13:42] BlueWall Slade: sure
[13:42] Saijanai Kuhn: ah kool. Will need that for pyogp too.
[13:43] Whump Linden: Need to do a round of integration with OpenSim, most likely tomorrow.
[13:43] Saijanai Kuhn: is that on the wiki?
[13:43] Whump Linden: Okay.
[13:43] Whump Linden: Not yet, need to get a build out later today.
[13:43] Lillie Yifu: kk
[13:43] Saijanai Kuhn: KK. Someday, you'll implement it in pyogp first, mark my words... ;-)
[13:44] Whump Linden: Lillie: Infinity and Tess responded to your questions about Draft 3 on the talk page
[13:44] Whump Linden: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Talk:Open_Grid_Protocol
[13:45] Whump Linden: So please review and comment there.
[13:45] Whump Linden: We're also gathering more information on https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-3076
[13:45] Whump Linden: this is about the appearance of ground textures when OGP teleporting into an OpenSim region in grid mode.
[13:46] Whump Linden: I need to get more reproduction/info.
[13:46] Whump Linden: So please comment on the Jira if you have it.
[13:47] Whump Linden: Also, and Xugu, I'd like to get more of your input on https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-2875
[13:47] Whump Linden: this is about some LSL functionality to get grid/region info.
[13:47] Saijanai Kuhn: whump is here a reason why "5" shows up in the UUID's or is that just a typo?
[13:47] Lalinda Lovell: there*
[13:48] Xugu Madison: Whump, ve a look over it again, see if there's any methods I've missed the first time through
[13:48] Xugu Madison: I'll have a ....
[13:48] Whump Linden: Saijanai: the UUIDs in the OGP messages?
[13:48] Teravus Ousley: doesn't see which UUIDs you're talking about.
[13:48] Saijanai Kuhn: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Talk:Open_Grid_Protocol
[13:48] Teravus Ousley: oh.
[13:49] Whump Linden: I think that's a typo.
[13:50] Saijanai Kuhn: just wearing my OCD dcoumentor's hat, sorry
[13:50] Whump Linden: Xugu, I need to look at the OpenSim function list as well.
[13:50] Whump Linden: Good catch Saij.
[13:50] Whump Linden: Okay, that's the administrivia.
[13:50] Whump Linden: Any questions, or should I hand the floor to Peripase?
[13:50] Whump Linden: er, Periapse
[13:51] Lillie Yifu: any progress on the IM issues?
[13:52] Whump Linden: Lillie: they are still under discussion and we've not made any committments as of yet.
[13:52] Lillie Yifu: kk
[13:52] Lillie Yifu: watches Whump kick can down the road. Realizes that she needs to file that phsyics jira today about the piano keys.
[13:53] Whump Linden: Okay, then I'll hand the floor to Peripase.
[13:53] Whump Linden: Do you want to use the soapbox?
[13:53] Periapse Linden: no thx, here is fine :-)
[13:54] Periapse Linden: So recently [1] came up
[13:54] Periapse Linden: I must admit that the Core Platform team was completely blindsided by this
[13:54] Tegg Bode: I f you use the Soapbox you have to start with something like " My countrymen........
[13:55] Periapse Linden: We had no idea that (a) the OpenSim team had actually developed internal extensions to LSL,
[13:55] Teravus Ousley: listens
[13:55] Periapse Linden: or (b) that the current viewers would actually pass such calls on to the simulator
[13:56] Periapse Linden: Supporting extensions to LSL has never been on our plate
[13:57] Periapse Linden: In fact, Babbage's thinking on how to do scripting (with OpenSim and others) has been in an entirely different direction.
[13:57] Teravus Ousley: From what Adam has told me, there was a response in login that told the viewer to submit the text even if it didn't compile.
[13:58] Periapse Linden: So what I'd like to do is share what I can of the discussions that have gone on internally, and point the way toward what we see as the future,
[13:58] Periapse Linden: which is enabled, to a large degree, by the recent launch of Mono
[13:59] Periapse Linden: So to the immediate issue, the passthru of scripts to the simulator.
[14:00] Periapse Linden: With Mono and server side compilation anyway, the fact that the behavior changed with a recent viewer release is rather mysterious.
[14:00] Periapse Linden: I suspect that the problem may be with viewer syntax checking code doing something different.
[14:01] Periapse Linden: Strife also pointed out [2] as a possible source of when this happened.
[14:01] Teravus Ousley: notes that compile has pretty much always failed on opensimulator.. but the viewer has submitted it anyway in text form with no byte code.
[14:02] Periapse Linden: To date though, the original JIRA is being treated as a feature request, not a bug, since we never planned to either support extensions or pass thru in the first place.
[14:03] Periapse Linden: That said, Babbage has said he's receptive to a patch which would enable such pass thru for extensions.
[14:03] Gwen Hermit: hmmm
[14:03] Periapse Linden: but his real interest is something much more grand
[14:03] Xugu Madison: I know there was talk of non-LSL languages being supported, is that still being considered?
[14:03] Gwen Hermit: what be a this? LSL interpretation?
[14:04] Periapse Linden: Indeed. it's that future I'd like to discuss.
[14:04] Periapse Linden: Rather more general than even, say, C# for LSL
[14:04] Gwen Hermit: someone care to update me on teh agenda?
[14:04] Periapse Linden: What Mono allows us to do, and Teravus, I think you suggested this already,
[14:05] Whump Linden: Gwen, Periapse is taking questions about LSL and Mono, things he doesn't have an immediate answer for, he'll take to the mono team.
[14:05] Periapse Linden: is to create a CLI interface into the internal calls behind LSL
[14:05] Strawberry Fride: :)
[14:05] Gwen Hermit: 2 big questions i have:
[14:05] Gwen Hermit: 1 - other languages, generic "anything which runs on CLR"
[14:05] Gwen Hermit: and:
[14:05] Gwen Hermit: 2 - how does this affect interop work?
[14:06] Saijanai Kuhn: anyone else need a catchup of the past few minutes?
[14:06] Periapse Linden: Which means that OpenSim (or anyone) can then use the Mono framework to script LSL in language of choice
[14:06] Whump Linden: Gwen, we'll post a transcript after the meeting.
[14:06] Periapse Linden: Gwen -- this has absolutely nothing to do with OGP or the current interop. Whump simply asked me to come here because of interest
[14:06] Tegg Bode: cool
[14:06] Lillie Yifu: would this allow access to functionalyt not reachable through LSL currently... e.g. estate manager functions?
[14:07] Gwen Hermit: i would say choice of scripting platform is DEFINATELY related to interop
[14:07] Strawberry Fride: so we're talking full .NET language support - if it's .NET it will (hopefully) be able to be used to code on SL?
[14:07] electroRogue Fizzle: damn i hate that poofer at times hi peeps
[14:08] Strawberry Fride: can I jump up and down and get excited about being able to use proper .NET collections?
[14:08] Teravus Ousley: notes that they'd still need to make and expose objects with methods/properties that change things like estate properties.. so.. I dunno.
[14:08] Strawberry Fride: rather than lsl lists?
[14:08] Periapse Linden: That's the idea. But the specifics are going to have to be determined. And I propose that this interface be developed with community input.
[14:08] Gwen Hermit: basically, will there be a requirement for 3rd-party simulators to run mono or .NET?
[14:08] Gwen Hermit: talking about lisps has me thinking...... could make scheme the standard scripting language ;)
[14:08] Gwen Hermit: lists
[14:08] Gwen Hermit: freudian typo
[14:08] Periapse Linden: Doesn't OpenSim already use .NET?
[14:09] Strawberry Fride: exactly
[14:09] Strawberry Fride: OpenSim is a .NET application
[14:09] Periapse Linden: is sadly ignorant of OpenSim code
[14:09] Teravus Ousley: OpenSim does already use .NET..
[14:09] Strawberry Fride: mono on linux or windows, .NET framework on Windows
[14:09] Gwen Hermit: Periapse - indeed, but it's not "opensim and SL, and screw the rest of the world"
[14:09] Strawberry Fride: you can script in .NET languages or LSL on OpenSim#
[14:09] Teravus Ousley: We have a LSL API essentially
[14:09] Teravus Ousley: You can script in .NET languages on OpenSim
[14:09] Imaze Rhiano: just forgot LSL - head fastest way to C# and other real languages
[14:09] Periapse Linden: Well, I don't think we would be adding value only for OpenSim
[14:10] Gwen Hermit: getting real interop means not tieing things to a specific platform, thus scripts should be platform-neutral
[14:10] Periapse Linden: Mono and .NET are freely available, and open, and generic (unlike LSL)
[14:10] Strawberry Fride: exactly
[14:10] Strawberry Fride: C# is an ECMA standard
[14:10] Gwen Hermit: what i'd propose is the script source code be uploaded with metadata specifying the language
[14:11] Teravus Ousley: Periapse: I can hand you our LSL interface if you want it. But it doesn't cover the extensions or use of another language.
[14:11] Periapse Linden: So let me detail where the LSL/Mono team is at right now
[14:11] Teravus Ousley: It's an interface.
[14:12] Periapse Linden: So as to give an idea of the timing.
[14:12] Periapse Linden: Teravus -- yes, though we'd want , as part of the effort, to work out how extensions would be done
[14:13] Periapse Linden: The work on a CLI interface done by OpenSim last year caught Babbage's attention
[14:13] Periapse Linden: see [3]
[14:14] Periapse Linden: and since then it's been on the list of possible "post Mono" projects.
[14:14] Periapse Linden: Currently Bab and co. are working on the new HTTP In funtions
[14:14] Strawberry Fride: cool :)
[14:14] Periapse Linden: which will be going into beta soon.
[14:15] Periapse Linden: Following that, there is a tactical project required for scalability
[14:15] Periapse Linden: Both of which should finish before the end of this quarter
[14:15] Whump Linden: makes stabbity death gestures at XML-RPC.
[14:15] Teravus Ousley: hehe
[14:15] Strawberry Fride: I'm with you there Whump :)
[14:15] Xugu Madison: Excellent, been looking forward to HTTP server stuff
[14:16] Gwen Hermit: how much worse performance-wise is outbound XML-RPC compared to inbound HTTP requests to the prim?
[14:16] Periapse Linden: Once those are accomplished I think working out and implementing a general interface (with methodology for extensions) into LSL
[14:16] Teravus Ousley: wonders periapse@lindenlab.com ?
[14:17] Periapse Linden: is where we'd like to go.
[14:17] Strawberry Fride: sounds like the next few months will be fun
[14:18] Periapse Linden: What I'd like to get today is some input on concerns, desires, requirements for that interface and extension policy (high level) that I can take back to two team here at LL
[14:19] Periapse Linden: and the other is our open source team
[14:19] Periapse Linden: One is of course Babbage and "studio blighty"
[14:19] Teravus Ousley: One suggestion, is maybe a CAP for script compilation policy
[14:20] BlueWall Slade: It would be great to see the ossl handling pushed up in interest of interop, but it is understood that you have business goals to meet.
[14:20] Periapse Linden: If this project passes our internal review, then we can start meetings with a group of resident developers like yourselves to hone in on details
[14:20] Gwen Hermit: please do raise the cross-platform issue, even though mono is itself cross-platform, there could still be issues if we want to bring any of this up with regards OGP later, i.e will OGP simply pretend scripts don't exist? or will it enforce CLR?
[14:20] Periapse Linden: in much the same way as the OG protocol has been developed
[14:20] Periapse Linden: but right now I'm interested in high level stuff.
[14:21] Periapse Linden: Is this a useful direction? What are the needs you all have for interface and extensions?
[14:22] Teravus Ousley: well, parhaps an extension could be done with a Generic <T> module loader... like we do in OpenSimulator
[14:22] Gwen Hermit: i'd like to see python or scheme myself, and i don't mean IronPython ;)
[14:22] Saijanai Kuhn: /mepoints out that anyone who wants to join the AW Groupies to keep on top of this stuff should ask for a Groupies invite
[14:22] Periapse Linden: The other alternative, suggested and with many votes in pJIRA, is to instead of working on a general CLI interface to start specific alternative language projects
[14:22] Xugu Madison: Periapse, Whump mentioned this earlier, but talking of extensions: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-2875
[14:24] Teravus Ousley: notes that we use Mono Addins
[14:24] Periapse Linden: [4] is an example of this other thinking
[14:24] Strawberry Fride: you already have Mono, why not use the CLU?
[14:24] Strawberry Fride: CLI?
[14:24] Gwen Hermit: i think the CLI is a good idea to use when implementing, but it should not be assumed in the protocol, or on the client
[14:24] BlueWall Slade: SVC-2945++
[14:25] Gwen Hermit: that way, if a certain person (looks innocent) wants to hackup a pure C++ sim mixed with python...... that person doesn't have to use libmono
[14:25] Teravus Ousley: Yep, you should also severely appdomain lock the scripts if you intend on using the CLI directly
[14:25] Periapse Linden: So that itself is a decision to make
[14:25] Strawberry Fride: sure, lock 'em down
[14:25] Teravus Ousley: Don't want scripts using System.Console.WriteLine("asdfasdf"); or worse :D
[14:26] Strawberry Fride: but yeah - why go to all the trouble of language 1, language 2, etc.
[14:26] Gwen Hermit: any thoughts on the "please don't enforce the CLI assumption in the protocol" thing?
[14:27] BlueWall Slade: you could have things like basic, lsl, javascript, etc.
[14:27] Saijanai Kuhn: at the OGP level, might make sense. BUT, you'd have to add something to find out which languages ARE available
[14:27] Xugu Madison: I'd rather see a general CLI interface, than specific language support, get it done once and for all, better in the longrun
[14:27] Gwen Hermit: a single metadata field in the script with language type is fine, then you can set it to use any arbitary compiler server-side
[14:27] Gwen Hermit: saijanai - that makes sense
[14:27] Periapse Linden: Gwen -- that's for the AWG an OGP, I don't feel like I can talk about that
[14:27] Gwen Hermit: something like an AvailableLanguages CAP
[14:28] Periapse Linden: (was referring to not putting CLI into the protocol)
[14:28] Whump Linden: I understand that C# is a standard, is the CLI part of a standard as well?
[14:28] Gwen Hermit: periapse - you could implement it on SL too, since if you make any changes in the SL viewer which assume the server is using mono, that's a problem
[14:28] Strawberry Fride: yes, CLI is a standard
[14:28] Teravus Ousley: nods.. at the very least a CAP which tells the viewer to not bother trying to syntax check it :D
[14:28] Strawberry Fride: [5]
[14:28] Sean Schmid: doesn't see Gwen, and is intrested in "other" languages.
[14:29] Periapse Linden: We're nearly out of time today, but I want to start moving this forward, so
[14:29] Gwen Hermit: [6]
[14:29] Sean Schmid: I'm not clear on at least one of the boundaries. If the call sequence and binary are defined, why does the high level languate have any visibility at all.
[14:30] Periapse Linden: if you are interested in working on, testing, or just giving input to the decision on next course
[14:30] Periapse Linden: especially the decision on specific languages vs CLI interface
[14:30] Periapse Linden: please make sure you are a member of the group Mono in SL
[14:30] Gwen Hermit: personally, i've got nothing against CLI being used on your backend
[14:31] Gwen Hermit: but i'd be very opposed to enforcing it in any way, including in the viewer's UI or the protocol
[14:31] Periapse Linden: I'll be using that group to send out invites to a meeting with Babbage and the Mono devs
[14:31] Strawberry Fride: dammit, I need more group space :)
[14:31] Lillie Yifu: more gorups ++
[14:31] Periapse Linden: where we can go into the details
[14:31] Whump Linden: okay, we're running out of allotted time, so let's wrap up
[14:31] Gwen Hermit: if the viewer can send a language_type field, that would rock
[14:31] Gwen Hermit: i think my views have been made quite obvious :)
[14:31] Periapse Linden: I'll also send the transcripts of this talk to the team.
[14:31] Xugu Madison: Thanks for hosting Whump, thanks for coming Periapse and all!
[14:31] BlueWall Slade: Thanks everyone
[14:31] Periapse Linden: and stay tuned in a week or so for word about Http in
[14:31] Whump Linden: Yes, everyone, please, thank Periapse for volunteering his time!
[14:32] Teravus Ousley: thanks
[14:32] Strawberry Fride: thanks all :)
[14:32] Imaze Rhiano: Thanks for meeting - I am not sure is scripting going to have big part in future - In the end majority of "scripts" are going to be very simple... doesn't much matter what language you are going to use them - but real business is going to need powerful enough server side coding methods - and in OpenSIms there are going to do it one way or another- now question is how LL can offer similar functionality for big business SIM owners.
[14:32] Strawberry Fride: great meeting
[14:32] Lillie Yifu: sets her tivo for the next adventure of "Pigs in Space"
[14:32] Teravus Ousley: wonders which mono groups is the right one :P
[14:32] Strawberry Fride: is wondering the same thing
[14:32] Periapse Linden: Mono in SL
[14:33] Periapse Linden: you can drop Mono Beta if you are a member and need room.
[14:33] Teravus Ousley: thanks
[14:33] Strawberry Fride: thanks
[14:33] Gwen Hermit: heh, there's >1 mono group?
[14:33] Whump Linden: Imaze, we are already supporting HTTP out and as Periapse said, soon will support HTTP in.
[14:34] Gwen Hermit: whump - is XML-RPC actually being dropped then or being kept?
[14:34] Imaze Rhiano: ya... but what about databases interactions and other heavy functions?
[14:34] Periapse Linden: Gwen -- I don't know the fate yet for xml-rpc
[14:34] Gwen Hermit: database interaction...... never going to happen with scripts on LL's servers i'd imagine
[14:35] Gwen Hermit: unless y'all want arbitary MySQL connections to be possible from your simulators by scripts
[14:35] Gwen Hermit: which i doubt
[14:35] Periapse Linden: thank you all for coming today, and I hope to see some of yousoon at further discussions
[14:35] Gwen Hermit: pictures griefers connecting to LL's MySQL servers and wrechking havok
[14:35] Xugu Madison: Much akin to web hosting
[14:35] Gwen Hermit: *wrecking
[14:35] Xugu Madison: I don't see why not, actually. I'd quite happily pay a little to LL for a set of tables I could affect from within LSL
[14:35] Strawberry Fride: how about little SQLite databases?
[14:35] Xugu Madison: MySQL can be locked down fairly well
[14:35] Gwen Hermit: Xugu - the simulator host needs access
[14:35] Strawberry Fride: MySQL would be a big solution to what cuold be a simple problem
[14:36] Gwen Hermit: therefore, if scripts run on that host, LSL could turn into a nice and fast way to start bruteforcing your way into LL's DBs
[14:36] Whump Linden: remembers Mac OS X's data store frameworks.
[14:36] Gwen Hermit: of course, it could be setup so that the simulator doesn't allow scripts to connect to anything but external hosts or specific DBs
[14:36] Periapse Linden: I'm late for a 230 mtg, so I need to fly off. Thanks all!
[14:36] Teravus Ousley: Take care
[14:36] Gwen Hermit: be gone!
[14:36] Strawberry Fride: thanks Periapse :)
[14:36] Chorazin Allen: waves
[14:36] Imaze Rhiano: bye
[14:36] Whump Linden: Yes, I'm late as well. Thanks.
[14:36] electroRogue Fizzle: blows kiss's

User:Whump Linden/Office Hours/Transcript 20081008

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