User:Whump Linden/Office Hours/Transcript 20081112

• [13:30] SteamRobot_BodyCrusher1.2: Unknown: animation state 'Init'
• [13:30] Connecting to: in-world Voice Chat...
• [13:30] Connected undefined:
• [13:31] RH Sugita: i have an open IM window now, for the group
• [13:31] Whump Linden: Hey folks.
• [13:31] Susan Tsuki: Whump, hello!
• [13:31] Susan Tsuki: how many people do you have on group chat, Sugi?
• [13:32] RH Sugita: 2
• [13:32] Susan Tsuki: perhaps we can debug the large group chat issue, but I think I saw that diagram at a different linden's office
• [13:32] Susan Tsuki: how are you, Whump?
• [13:32] Whump Linden: So, this is an office hour primarily for Open Grid Public Beta participants, but I'm happy to discuss other technical issues.
• [13:33] Whump Linden: I may have to defer to other lindens when it gets into an area I don't know well.
• [13:33] Whump Linden: Susan: I'm good.
• [13:33] Whump Linden: But smarting from the Sharks' loss to the Predators last night. :)
• [13:34] Daten Thielt: i got tech questions but i dont thing ur allowed to anser them lol
• [13:34] Susan Tsuki: there are 713+ people in the libsl group and at least 100 are logged on and I think I've managed to contact 2
• [13:34] Susan Tsuki: Daten: only one way to find out
• [13:34] Daten Thielt: they dont care susan
• [13:34] Myla Moody: your chat to libsl group is going out :)
• [13:34] Daten Thielt: they only care about the lib
• [13:35] Daten Thielt: most of em*
• [13:35] Whump Linden: Daten, the worst that can happen is that I say that I'm unable to comment/answer.
• [13:35] Daten Thielt: ahh cool
• [13:36] Daten Thielt: just tellme when ur ready for questions :D
• [13:36] Daten Thielt: lol
• [13:36] Whump Linden: Susan, I'm not involved with the current Group IM system, however, some of the OGP/AWG participants: Saijani Kuhn and Zha Erwy are looking at Group Chat in a multple grid environment.
• [13:37] Whump Linden: Hey Saijanai.
• [13:37] Susan Tsuki: good to know it's being looked at, I've experienced multiple large group chat failures in the past 1.5 months; haven't checked Jira about it yet
• [13:38] Susan Tsuki: do you know the reason groups are limited to 25?
• [13:38] Susan Tsuki: it's some database join issue or something?
• [13:38] Daten Thielt: more groups = more memory
• [13:38] Saijanai Kuhn: more groups = more hits on the server every tme someone logs in and out
• [13:38] Whump Linden: Susan: yes, it's a db query complexity issue with the current architecture.
• [13:38] Susan Tsuki: by the way, I wanted to say that uptime and concurrency has been very good, and I haven't seen any asset server problems other than sporadic inventory loss for months and months
• [13:39] Saijanai Kuhn: from what Infinity has said, its a very strange system (she's been looking at it for a week or 2 in-depth) but, given there are 15,000,000 registered users it has to keep track of, its impressive it works at all
• [13:39] Whump Linden: Thank you, Susan, there's been a lot of work on inventory the past few months, so I'm glad it's been paying off.
• [13:40] Saijanai Kuhn: hey concurrency has been 10K higher than it was a few months ago, and we can still caht at leats most of the time. Tht is impressive
• [13:40] Whump Linden: I'm curious, how many of you are using libsl/openmetaverse here today?
• [13:41] Daten Thielt: me
• [13:41] Daten Thielt: btw libomv now :P
• [13:41] Daten Thielt: :D
• [13:41] Whump Linden: Are you using it as part of OpenSim or for building apps that talk to Second Life?
• [13:41] Susan Tsuki: I know someone who is asking me questions about installing libsl, and several people who have done it, but I am waiting for the perl bindings
• [13:41] Daten Thielt: text client that is not as buged as sleek/metabolt
• [13:42] Daten Thielt: to connect to sl not opengrid
• [13:42] Susan Tsuki: luckily there is a new system which automatically generates perl bindings from any .net interface
• [13:42] Whump Linden: Are you building on Mono or .Net?
• [13:42] Daten Thielt: i started .net but am thinging about converting to mono for multi os support
• [13:43] Whump Linden: yes, there's mono installers for nearly everything
• [13:43] Daten Thielt: indeed lol
• [13:43] Daten Thielt: i also work directly on the lib to give it more functionality, thats part of my question today lol
• [13:44] Whump Linden: Okay, the one item of business I had was just an update on the vaak sims.
• [13:45] Whump Linden: For OGP, those are available again, and if you need to teleport to them for testing, then you'll want the new Public Seed Caps at https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Open_Grid_Public_Beta/Public_Regions#Linden_Lab_OGP_Regions
• [13:47] Whump Linden: that's the official business I have for today
• [13:47] Whump Linden: so agenda items/questions?
• [13:48] Susan Tsuki: I propose that bug bounties be put into effect
• [13:48] Saijanai Kuhn: just been thinking lately, we need to coordinate people on implementing their own AD. Tao's been out of hte loop lately, Belxjander wants to do one in google app, and I'd like to see a pure python without extra libraries test implementation for pyogp
• [13:49] Susan Tsuki: I'd like to see bug bounty sponsorship from LL to all of the open source which supports it, but focusing in particular on the parts that are supporting LL more than other open source projects
• [13:49] Whump Linden: Susan, there's a bounty for security bugs. https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Security_issues
• [13:49] Susan Tsuki: Saijanai: what's an AD?
• [13:49] Saijanai Kuhn: so maybe we can start talkng about a reference AD at some point?
• [13:49] Saijanai Kuhn: Agent Domain. The login server for the cross domain stuff
• [13:49] Daten Thielt: Whump do you know anything about the xfer system ?
• [13:50] Susan Tsuki: fantastic that a bounty system is already in place. I hope that the OpenSim revenue model will support its expansion
• [13:50] Whump Linden: Okay, I've got three items. Reference AD, Bounties, and Transferr
• [13:51] Daten Thielt: ill wait hehe
• [13:51] Susan Tsuki: Agent Domain is like OpenID?
• [13:51] Saijanai Kuhn: it could USE OpenID, yeah
• [13:52] Saijanai Kuhn: it basically accepts your login and then performs introductions to whatever grid or sim you want to visit
• [13:52] Saijanai Kuhn: in the long run it will perform introductions for asset servers, group IM servers, or anything else that needs a login from your avie
• [13:52] Susan Tsuki: "People who work on social network sites, part 2: It's great that all of you are OpenID providers now. it's completely useless that none of you are OpenID consumers. What the hell, people." - [1]
• [13:53] Whump Linden: Reference AD: our Agent Domain implementation will probably remain internal, and for the near future we are going to only support that AD for connecting to the grid. So if AWG wants a reference implemention, they will need to build it.
• [13:53] Whump Linden: Susan: yes, I read that post of his.
• [13:53] Whump Linden: However, the Agent Domain is not the same as an OpenID provider.
• [13:53] Daten Thielt: i know the xfer system is old, and its being replaced by the transfer system but will things like RAW uploa download be conveted over to the transfer system? because im adding functionailty for both opensim and libsl but i cant find any info about expectxfer only requestxfers :D
• [13:53] Saijanai Kuhn: right. Didn't expect it to cnnect to vaak and company. But, in order to test AD <=> AD stuff we need to have at least 2 ADs up and running ;-)
• [13:54] Daten Thielt: damn dident mean to press enter yet D:
• [13:54] Saijanai Kuhn: the test sims in OpenSImLand would work fine for that
• [13:54] Whump Linden: is the stuff that Freja is working on something that could be a reference implementation?
• [13:55] Saijanai Kuhn: Freja?
• [13:55] Saijanai Kuhn: is there another AD being worked on?
• [13:55] Saijanai Kuhn: LOL we need to get coordinated here
• [13:55] Whump Linden: Belixander
• [13:55] Saijanai Kuhn: oh, righgt. well, he wants to do it with google app, so again, its not quite a reference
• [13:56] Whump Linden: well depends on the framework used
• [13:56] Saijanai Kuhn: Tao's is with plone. Frejah's would be with google App.
• [13:56] Saijanai Kuhn: we need something simple to just show the barebones functionality, even if it can't handle more than a few avies at a time
• [13:56] Whump Linden: you can run different containers on google apps
• [13:57] Saijanai Kuhn: thinking maybe I can talk to Donovan about an eventlet implementation or something
• [13:57] Saijanai Kuhn: ok, not familiar with it
• [13:57] Susan Tsuki: Is the cryptographic authentication the stumbling block?
• [13:57] Whump Linden: Susan: the stumbling block on?
• [13:57] Susan Tsuki: or is the API opaque?
• [13:58] Saijanai Kuhn: doubtful. For opensim use i testing, you can just use a fake password and avie. Its a matter of getting the protocls working in an application more than anything else
• [13:58] Susan Tsuki: I mean, do you require password encryption in an unpublished format, or just obscure the whole authentication api?
• [13:58] Saijanai Kuhn: its mostly that this is still brand new, the API is still being worked on and I'm a newbie
• [13:58] Whump Linden: No, there's a spec for authentication
• [13:58] Saijanai Kuhn: in theory any authentication API could be used.
• [13:58] Susan Tsuki: url?
• [13:59] Whump Linden: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Open_Grid_Protocol
• [13:59] Saijanai Kuhn: rememvber, for now, none of these sims have access to valueable assets, so its all in the experimental, did this work, phase
• [13:59] Whump Linden: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OGP_Teleport
• [13:59] Susan Tsuki: fantastic
• [14:00] Saijanai Kuhn: so you could use a fake avie and password for a test OPenSIm right now. Its just a matter of writing the code to the spec
• [14:00] Whump Linden: Yes, at the moment, everyone doing OGP is doing it ruthed because we don't have the inventory pieces sorted yet.
• [14:00] Whump Linden: Saijanai: wouldn't you create the agents on the AD?
• [14:01] Saijanai Kuhn: later on, Agent DOmains will need to be authenticated in some way so you trust their judgement for login, but for now...
• [14:01] Saijanai Kuhn: sure, that's what Tao's does. There's just no authroity that says "well ban this greifer for you if he gets out of hand" or whatever
• [14:01] Saijanai Kuhn: its all just open protocols with no trust relationships
• [14:01] Whump Linden: yes, and Infinity has been wanting to get on with the trust part
• [14:02] Whump Linden: but she's heads down this week with tess on architectural business
• [14:02] Saijanai Kuhn: another reason why we need at least 2 ADs to work with
• [14:02] Susan Tsuki: I still trust MD5 but I trust SHA more
• [14:02] Saijanai Kuhn: how does a grid handle a trusted AD compared to a non-trusted ad, etc...
• [14:03] Whump Linden: Susan: please feel free to comment on the draft in the talk pages. Those get read and reviewed.
• [14:03] Susan Tsuki: for sending over an unencrypted WiFi, I would trust DES-3 for now because I'm not big on being able to understand key exchange
• [14:03] Susan Tsuki: but given warrentless wiretapping, maybe we need OpenSSL
• [14:03] Whump Linden: Also, the AWG meetings on Tuesdays and Zero Linden's office hours are the places where a lot of this gets hashed out.
• [14:04] Saijanai Kuhn: Yeah, but understand, these are implementation details that may or may not be concerned with a specific AD. Different ADs may use differnt authentication schemes
• [14:04] Susan Tsuki: well the topic was a reference AD
• [14:04] Saijanai Kuhn: and grid operators might have standard assumptions and agreements for which authentication schemes they will trust
• [14:04] Susan Tsuki: I will make talk page comments on the wiki
• [14:05] Saijanai Kuhn: but for now, we just need *something* that works to the API, regardless of how the password or whatever is processed
• [14:05] Saijanai Kuhn: the LL one is closed and Tao's is kinda on hold as far as I can tell. High Hopes for Bel's
• [14:06] Whump Linden: Thanks, Susan, that way more eyes have a look at them.
• [14:06] Saijanai Kuhn: Suana are you a member of AW Groupies?
• [14:07] Susan Tsuki: the traditional way to release such code is with stubs, so different schemes (or a null scheme) is pluggable by, for example, linking object files. That was from back when the NSA was arresting people for munitions exports and teling them they couldn't talk about it
• [14:07] Susan Tsuki: I am now, thanks
• [14:08] Saijanai Kuhn: anyone else need a membership>? Gets you the Sekret password for nothing, but lets you attend meetings and argue stuff on the in-world group
• [14:08] Susan Tsuki: ahh yes, Zero Linden was the one in whose office I saw the IM state transition diagram
• [14:08] Saijanai Kuhn: Zero's the founder of the AWG itself. The AW Groupies is the in-world group for hte AWG
• [14:09] Saijanai Kuhn: so anyway, I'll check more with Bel he dropped me an IM earlier but was out
• [14:09] Whump Linden: Okay, next item was bounties?
• [14:10] Susan Tsuki: there is already a security bug bounty system? Is it working well?
• [14:10] Whump Linden: At the moment, there are three 'award' programs. There's the security bounties mentioned upthread.
• [14:10] Whump Linden: Without going into specifics, I can say that we have awared bounties, and that if you submit an issue, it gets looked at.
• [14:11] Daten Thielt: this is for the sl jira right?
• [14:11] Whump Linden: Yes.
• [14:11] Daten Thielt: i was told i was getting a bounty back in feb, still havent got it :P sec 53 lol
• [14:11] Whump Linden: The second 'award' program is the Hippo Awards, in conjunction with the SL Community Convention.
• [14:12] Whump Linden: Daten, you did?
• [14:12] Susan Tsuki: uh oh, growing pains
• [14:12] Daten Thielt: yea Sec-53 is a bad one, in the comments linden told me 10k bounty
• [14:12] Whump Linden: Susan: That's a community award that residents and lindens are involved in.
• [14:12] Saijanai Kuhn: L$10K or US$10K?
• [14:12] Whump Linden: Daten, I'll follow up on that.
• [14:13] Susan Tsuki: smiles
• [14:13] Daten Thielt: :D ty
• [14:13] Whump Linden: Saijanai: L$10,000
• [14:13] Whump Linden: And the new one is the Linden Prize, as mentioned on the blog.
• [14:13] Daten Thielt: indeed L$
• [14:13] Whump Linden: So those are the current incentives we have.
• [14:14] Susan Tsuki: It would be great if more people knew about them
• [14:14] Susan Tsuki: what's the blog permalink?
• [14:14] Whump Linden: just a sec
• [14:14] Susan Tsuki: and for the Hippo Prise maybe, thanks?
• [14:14] Whump Linden: [2]
• [14:14] Whump Linden: the linden prize is US $10K
• [14:15] Whump Linden: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Hippo_Awards
• [14:15] Susan Tsuki: ooh, very new!
• [14:16] Whump Linden: so I don't know if that addresses all the questions you had about bounties
• [14:16] Saijanai Kuhn: was nominated for documntation, but lost to some silly web people who only translated the entire wiki into Japanese and French. I mean jeeze... ;-)
• [14:16] Susan Tsuki: well, I was going to suggest bounties on bugs
• [14:17] Susan Tsuki: residents can vote on bugs, but lindens should all get an allowand with which to bountify them
• [14:17] Susan Tsuki: not just in LL Jira but other open source bugs too
• [14:17] Susan Tsuki: and if they don't want to bother they can proxy to otehr lindens
• [14:17] Susan Tsuki: was what I was going to propose
• [14:17] Saijanai Kuhn: Wump, quick question, do you know if texture CAP will be in the new RC?
• [14:17] Whump Linden: so on Apache, Python, all the underlying pieces?
• [14:17] Susan Tsuki: allowance*
• [14:18] Whump Linden: Saijanai: not sure, but can find out.
• [14:18] Saijanai Kuhn: KK Squirrel Wood mentioned somehting but not sure if its a CAP change or not. Would be neat if it wa
• [14:18] Susan Tsuki: sure, depending on the individual linden or their proxy's wishes
• [14:19] Whump Linden: hum, we've experimented internally with those sorts of markets for priortizing projects
• [14:19] Susan Tsuki: but not for projects which are closed source or not used by SL-related systems
• [14:19] Susan Tsuki: let M Linden pay for those
• [14:20] Susan Tsuki: bug bounties have emerged as the most popular gig-style employment for coders on part-time projects, as most of the most effective open source coders treat theirsystems
• [14:20] Saijanai Kuhn: heads upo: Tao says his plone implementation is already in the pyogp someplace though its probalby not functioning with all the new changes
• [14:21] Whump Linden: Saijanai: yes, I don't think he's revised it since draft 3.
• [14:21] Saijanai Kuhn: well, with newly functinal brain I'll at least look at it :-)
• [14:21] Whump Linden: Susan: who's providing the bounties and market clearing for those?
• [14:22] Whump Linden: is it an informal system of someone saying I need ticket #xyz solved and accepted into release and I'll pay $y?
• [14:22] Whump Linden: or can I go to a site and find bounties?
• [14:23] Susan Tsuki: btw I mentioned this dot-net-to-perl thig earlier but forgot url [3]
• [14:23] Susan Tsuki: yes
• [14:23] Susan Tsuki: that's right
• [14:23] Whump Linden: feel free to put links into chat, this stuff gets wikified
• [14:23] Susan Tsuki: whoever puts up the bounty gets to decide whether to actually pay it
• [14:24] Susan Tsuki: and the person who closes the bug can ask for it, and find out why if it's not really closed
• [14:24] Susan Tsuki: as for who provides it, it should come out of the software server license cost center for LL's offical commercial server platform
• [14:24] Susan Tsuki: I'm guessing
• [14:25] Whump Linden: okay, got a couple minutes left, so can I go to Daten's question?
• [14:25] Susan Tsuki: please
• [14:25] Daten Thielt: im just wondering about the RAW upload sequence mainly
• [14:26] Whump Linden: uploading textures?
• [14:26] Daten Thielt: ive been trying for a few days to get it working but cant find any information on it whatoever
• [14:26] Daten Thielt: RAW terrain files
• [14:26] Whump Linden: have you looked in the viewer source?
• [14:27] Daten Thielt: yea, it tells the Xfer system to expect a file. but i dont think anything in opensim or libsl references an Expectxfer packet
• [14:27] Daten Thielt: or command
• [14:27] Daten Thielt: message w/e
• [14:27] Whump Linden: opensim's only recently (like in the last day or so) got uploading RAW working, if I recall correctly
• [14:28] Daten Thielt: RAW downloads
• [14:28] Daten Thielt: i wrote the libsl download cmmand with terravus yestery
• [14:28] Daten Thielt: him working on the opensim side
• [14:29] Daten Thielt: but were totaly stuck with the upload xfers
• [14:29] Whump Linden: that's a system I don't know, I think the best place to ask would be viewer office hours.
• [14:29] Saijanai Kuhn: Whump got an answer straight from CG Linden on my question
• [14:29] Daten Thielt: oke i will have to go to em :D ty
• [14:30] Whump Linden: Okay, if I learn anything I'll pass it along.
• [14:31] Susan Tsuki: thank you for being such a gracious host, Whump!
• [14:31] Whump Linden: You're welcome, thanks for the good questions and discussion.
• [14:31] Susan Tsuki: hey Daten, CG often hangs out at his office listening to chat
• [14:31] Susan Tsuki: I don't know whether he hears IMs tho
• [14:31] Daten Thielt: what department is he in
• [14:31] Whump Linden: Saijanai: what did CG say?
• [14:31] Susan Tsuki: and you probably want to have clickityclack on
• [14:32] Susan Tsuki: playTypingAnim*
• [14:32] Saijanai Kuhn: its the underlying foundation for new CAPs and for an http server (for LSL) but not the CAP itself
• [14:32] APinkSwan Beauchamp: Thank you all....Extremely informative...:)
• [14:33] Daten Thielt: tyty, ttya soon :D
• [14:33] Whump Linden: thanks again for coming by
• [14:33] Whump Linden: Saij, do you want a notecard with the transcript?