User:Zero Linden/Office Hours/2007 Apr 05

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Transcript of Zero Linden's office hours:

[7:17] Zero Linden decline Icehouse HQ in Lindenopolis from A group member named Karen Linden.
[7:34] Zha Ewry: Morning Zero
[7:34] Jarod Godel: Hi.
[7:34] Zero Linden: good morning all
[7:35] Zha Ewry: All seemss.. err grandious Zero :-)
[7:35] Zero Linden: Uh oh - I must be getting boring - only two so far
[7:36] Jarod Godel: Babbage!
[7:36] Zero Linden: Babbage - get off my lap!
[7:36] Zha Ewry: oooh. Thsi won't be boring.
[7:36] Jarod Godel: Oh, now I have to remember what I was going to ask him.
[7:36] Jarod Godel gulps memory-refreshing peach tea
[7:37] Babbage Linden: hi jarod
[7:37] Babbage Linden: hi zha
[7:37] Zha Ewry: Morning Babbage
[7:37] Zha Ewry rummages in her purse... looking for scripting questions...
[7:38] Zero Linden: So - we have to admit that we've got a secret back channel!
[7:38] Zero Linden: We're using a version of the voice beta that works on the main land
[7:38] Zero Linden: but only for Lindens
[7:38] Jarod Godel: Totally off-topic, but the guys at Borland/CodeGear have very intersting tastes in pre-talk music.
[7:38] Zero Linden: So it is a little bit odd as we ahve two channels of "talk"
[7:38] Zha Ewry: Ohh... Heh.
[7:38] Zero Linden: Jarod - are you at a Borland confrence right now?
[7:39] Zha Ewry: I've actually found that sort of stuff.. is very tricky.. (When we do open voice calls in parallel, it tends to all get sucked to voice or text, not both)
[7:39] Head Replacement: Hi there
[7:39] Jarod Godel: I'm listening in to a web-chat/streaming thing about their new Delphi for PHP product
[7:39] Head Replacement: Tao Takashi here, btw :)
[7:39] Babbage Linden: let me give you all gadgets while we wait for people
[7:40] Head Replacement: oh, and it's a Babbage, too :)
[7:40] Head Replacement: doing his viral marketing again :)
[7:40] Babbage Linden: yep
[7:40] Zero Linden: I know - and taking advantage of his position as a Linden .... sheesh!
[7:40] Babbage Linden: it's a condition of being near me at the moment :-)
[7:40] Jarod Godel: Babbage, can we give you gadgets too?
[7:41] Babbage Linden: sure
[7:41] Babbage Linden: lets do a gadget swap :-)
[7:41] Head Replacement: it's not really about his Linden position I think
[7:41] Babbage Linden: what does it do jarod?
[7:41] Zero Linden: No, I'm just joking
[7:41] Head Replacement: I only have gadgets as Tao Takashi, you will get one later ;-)
[7:41] Babbage Linden: i've actually tried hard not to use linden channels to promote it
[7:41] Zero Linden: Okay - well, it is about time to get going
[7:41] Jarod Godel: It's uses quicktime to view my Flickr stream
[7:42] Babbage Linden: i haven't blogged about it since it became more than a barcamp demo
[7:42] Jarod Godel: But you can mod it for any Flickr account.
[7:42] Head Replacement: but Tao has to work on another computer ;-)
[7:42] Head Replacement: I wish we hade "location tab" such as firefox tabs ;_)
[7:42] Zero Linden: Ah yes, Jarod has been keenly interested in the externally hosted image on a prim face project...
[7:42] Babbage Linden: cool
[7:42] Head Replacement: oh, I am interested in that, too :)
[7:42] Slicker Box: Ok...
[7:43] Zero Linden: Rote disclaimer: All Text Will be Televised!
[7:43] Zero Linden: Or at least broadcast on the Wiki
[7:43] Khamon Fate: We'll all be stars.
[7:43] Khamon Fate wonders which ones
[7:43] Head Replacement: superstars
[7:43] Zero Linden: It probably can't set the media stream unles I own it?
[7:43] Jarod Godel: lkely
[7:43] Khamon Fate: Hey you're not Zero
[7:44] Babbage Linden: right
[7:44] Zero Linden: No - I'm still Zero
[7:44] Jarod Godel: Khamon, ask babbage about his gadget.
[7:44] Zero Linden: Babbage is more of a one.
[7:44] Babbage Linden: it needs to be owned by you or deeded to a group
[7:44] Head Replacement: setting media streams is also sometimes quite an issue.. e.g. with group owned land
[7:44] Zha Ewry ignores temptation to make less than zero puns
[7:44] Khamon Fate: Babbage makes a difference.
[7:44] Zha Ewry: or absolute zero puns
[7:44] Jarod Godel: Negative Linden?
[7:44] Zero Linden: Okay - well, as you've noticed Babbage stopped by to join our chat.
[7:44] Zha Ewry: That's my baalnce after a shopping spree :-)
[7:44] Head Replacement: that's why I mostly use media proxies which are deeded and listen to commands while the actual player does just issue the command but does not need to be deeded and thus remaind editable
[7:45] Khamon Fate: Welcome Babbage
[7:45] Zero Linden: Before you completely bury him in every scripting question in the book.
[7:45] Head Replacement: Welcome Babbage :)
[7:45] Babbage Linden: hello
[7:45] Zero Linden: Let me remind you that he was responsible for llHTTPRequest(), and much of the message liberation work we've been talking about
[7:45] Jarod Godel: /em clap
[7:46] Zero Linden: In fact at the moment, we are all sending messages over Babbage's refactored message template code
[7:46] Zero Linden: So welcome
[7:46] Khamon Fate: We feel special.
[7:46] Zero Linden: Normal format rules apply - we can talk, but I'll try to keep the topic chanigng every 15 min . or so
[7:46] Zha Ewry: Si that grasmere specific?
[7:46] Zero Linden: So - Babbage - what's up?
[7:46] Zero Linden: Zha - no it is deployed on Agni
[7:46] Zha Ewry: Ahh.
[7:47] Khamon Fate: What machine, did you build a machine?
[7:47] Khamon Fate: Or is Jarod having an episode?
[7:47] Zero Linden: Babbage - how 'bout a quick update on developing in the UK
[7:47] Babbage Linden: ok sure
[7:48] Babbage Linden: the big news in the UK is that we're working on opening a lab in brighton
[7:48] Head Replacement: yeah, your twittering looks like fun :)
[7:48] Jarod Godel: SLUK?
[7:48] Babbage Linden: so if you know any great software engineers in the uk
[7:48] Babbage Linden: ask them to send us their cvs
[7:48] Jarod Godel: Is that why Robin was over there?
[7:49] Khamon Fate: Yes that was her cover story.
[7:49] Babbage Linden: robin was meeting the liaisons here
[7:49] Babbage Linden: amongst other things
[7:49] Khamon Fate: She met Eggypants too.
[7:49] Babbage Linden: gene and i have been interviewing location managers
[7:49] Babbage Linden: and moss and i have been interviewing engineers
[7:50] Zero Linden wonders why she would meet Egyptians in England....
[7:50] Khamon Fate: Will there be a colo there as well?
[7:50] Babbage Linden: there will be
[7:50] Babbage Linden: but i doubt it will be run by linden lab
[7:50] Jarod Godel: If you guys want some press coverage, contact Warren Ellis, via Rueters. He's a Brit writer who does a weekly bit about SL.
[7:50] Khamon Fate claps for more distributed grid testing
[7:50] Jarod Godel: I bet he could conjure up some devs
[7:51] Babbage Linden: great, i didn't know warren was in the uk
[7:51] Jarod Godel: Geeks <3 Warren Ellis
[7:51] Babbage Linden <3s warren ellis
[7:51] Khamon Fate: Wait wait wait, do you mean there'll be a seperate grid?
[7:51] Babbage Linden: khamon, no, but our work now is all headed towards allowing other organisations to run parts of the grid
[7:52] Khamon Fate: That's exciting news.
[7:52] Babbage Linden: i imagine at least one of them will be in the uk
[7:52] Khamon Fate: Rather it's exciting to actually hear that officially.
[7:52] Babbage Linden: it's a long way off, but then so are linden lab plans for a uk colo
[7:52] Jarod Godel: Baby steps?
[7:52] Babbage Linden: hi wyn
[7:52] Khamon Fate: long way in SL == eighteen months
[7:53] Khamon Fate: or never ha ha
[7:53] Babbage Linden: we will be running dev grids in brighton
[7:53] Khamon Fate: long way in SL == eighteen months | never
[7:53] Babbage Linden: but plans for a uk colo running part of agni aren't really underway
[7:54] Khamon Fate: We're happy to see it move in that direction though, mentally, amongst Linden types.
[7:54] Babbage Linden: our goal for brighton is mainly to tap in to the european engineering talent pol
[7:54] Babbage Linden: as we need lots of engineers
[7:54] Jarod Godel: Outsourcing?
[7:54] Wyn Galbraith: Good morning all.
[7:54] Jarod Godel: Oh noes!
[7:54] Zero Linden: I have been told there is a search underway for a third co-lo, but that this one will still be U.S. too....
[7:54] Zha Ewry: Morning Wyn
[7:54] Zero Linden: ... number four might be elsewhere.
[7:54] Babbage Linden: brighton is going to be a peer lab
[7:54] Khamon Fate: Not Australia?
[7:55] Babbage Linden: not outsourcing
[7:55] Babbage Linden: just geographically distributing linden lab
[7:55] Jarod Godel: SL Bangalore? (seriously, that'd be darn good place to get a hoarde of developers.)
[7:55] Jarod Godel: Babbage, any news of the arrays in LSL front?
[7:56] Zero Linden: Linden Lab is going through the common growing pains all companies do when they reach the "oh no, we don't all fit in the same building" point
[7:56] Zero Linden: The difference here is that we are trying to start out being a distributed company from the get-go
[7:56] Babbage Linden: jarod, yes and no
[7:56] Zha Ewry blinks. I suspect LL is looking for fewer.. deeper in sycnh people, then more.. haords
[7:56] Babbage Linden: yes in the sense that currently i implement lists in the mono implementation of LSL as ArrayLists
[7:57] Khamon Fate: Make more Koolaid
[7:57] Zero Linden: You are looking at 2nd most successful team doing it: Studio Icehouse, the engineering group with Babbage, Donovan, Tess, Which, Karen and myself
[7:57] Babbage Linden: no in the sense that i don't plan adding array syntax to lsl
[7:57] Zero Linden: has been operating out of three offices (Mountain View, San Francisco, and Babbage's den in the UK) for six months now
[7:57] Jarod Godel: Any chance we'll ever get an #include so we can roll out own array syntax and stick in in a library?
[7:57] Head Replacement: btw, if there's a colo in the eu, would what that mean for communication with the global services such as asset server etc. might there be issues?
[7:57] Zero Linden: (the number 1 spot if of course held by the Liasions)
[7:58] Khamon Fate: So y'all have kinda modeled a distributed development office as proof of concept?
[7:58] Babbage Linden: jarod, there's no reason you can't use a C preprocessor on LSL if you feel the need
[7:58] Zero Linden: Khamon - yes - for dev's, our group has been testing and trying distributed technologies
[7:59] Head Replacement: well, but directly implemented import mechanisms for libraries might be more useful
[7:59] Babbage Linden: but i'd rather work on allowing other CIL languages to be used in SL than extend LSL
[7:59] Head Replacement: or hey, even OO ;-)
[7:59] Zero Linden: We have been wildly successful with the combination of Skype and SubEthaEdit ...
[7:59] Zero Linden: ...though we are now replacing Skype with voice enabled SL
[7:59] Jarod Godel: Babbage, touche and well met!
[7:59] Babbage Linden: that is a long way off though, still
[7:59] Khamon Fate: Agree Babbage, feel free to regale us which tales of Mono.
[8:00] Babbage Linden: well, the current state of mono is that we're not waiting on anyone else any more
[8:00] Jarod Godel: Zero, is SubEthaEdit web-based?
[8:00] Babbage Linden: for a long time we were waiting on a fix to application domain unloading
[8:00] Babbage Linden: but that's been done
[8:00] Babbage Linden: and we were waiting on our new asset upload framework
[8:00] Babbage Linden: to allow server side compiles
[8:00] Babbage Linden: that is nearly done
[8:01] Babbage Linden: so, now we're opening up the debate about when we should work on mono again
[8:01] Khamon Fate: Why would someone vote not to?
[8:01] Babbage Linden: the situation is very different to when the mono work started though
[8:01] Babbage Linden: scalability is our biggest challenge
[8:01] Babbage Linden: which is why i've been working on messaging improvements with icehouse
[8:02] Babbage Linden: as the start of our grand scheme to make sl more architecturally more scalable
[8:02] Babbage Linden: so, it's very hard to justify working on mono rather than scalability
[8:02] Jarod Godel: And thus letting other companies host sims?
[8:02] Babbage Linden: yes
[8:02] Jarod Godel: w00t
[8:02] Babbage Linden: that said, we still plan on finishing mono
[8:02] Babbage Linden: when we can spare the manpower
[8:03] Babbage Linden: one possibility is that we'll get it to a state where we can preview it once we can run different versions of simulators in the grid
[8:03] Jarod Godel: Babbage, I'm more familiar with .NET than Mono...does Mono and a Mono-enabled SL support DLL's
[8:03] Babbage Linden: then we can have a long preview
[8:03] Babbage Linden: with a few sims running mono
[8:04] Babbage Linden: and allowing people to test it out
[8:04] Zha Ewry nods. Lots of long term slow testing...
[8:04] Khamon Fate: sounds like a plan
[8:05] Babbage Linden: that's the favourite route forward at the moment
[8:05] Wyn Galbraith loves breaking... er testing stuff :)
[8:05] Babbage Linden: do het grid, then preview mono
[8:05] Zha Ewry: I assume.. that if mono gets you a 10-100x script speed up.. it helps, in some ways with scale out
[8:06] Khamon Fate: How "done" is the grid in your opinion?
[8:06] Babbage Linden: zha, a little bit
[8:06] Babbage Linden: there is a tragedy of the commons problem with the way scripts work currently though
[8:06] Khamon Fate: unless we use those extra cycles to hit the databases that much more often
[8:06] Babbage Linden: you can just pile more scripts in to a sim until everything runs horribly
[8:07] Khamon Fate: then it becomes a yeah what Babbage said
[8:07] Zha Ewry: Sure.. but I can do that with 15 scripts
[8:07] Babbage Linden: it would be nice to do some kind of qos for scripts
[8:07] Zero Linden: "done"? As in, "how much of the redesign and architecture is left to do before the fundimentals are complete and it is all just features here on out?"
[8:07] Babbage Linden: that is also a big project
[8:07] Khamon Fate: Yes Zha but you understand and respect resource limitations.
[8:07] Zero Linden: We've talked about quotas for various things here
[8:07] Khamon Fate: That's not a common attitude.
[8:08] Zero Linden: before, and talked about how it is a tricky thing to ballance
[8:08] Zha Ewry nods
[8:08] Babbage Linden: mono will help in controlled situations, where you own a sim and run all the scripts on it
[8:08] Jarod Godel: qos based on land ownership per sim?
[8:08] Zero Linden: Jarod - yes, but you still need some way to handle visitors to your parcel
[8:08] Babbage Linden: elsewhere i imagine we'll see 100x more elaborate bling scripts
[8:08] Khamon Fate: It really just boils down to owning your own sim doesn't it.
[8:08] Babbage Linden: which will be nice, but not help scalability
[8:09] Khamon Fate: Has there been any Linden discussion about allowing Mainlanders to see top colliders in sims where they own land?
[8:09] Zero Linden: Imagine that owning a sim is like owning a web server....
[8:09] Zero Linden: If you have a parcel in a sim, you have a part of the URL space on a web server
[8:09] Zero Linden: you're sharing the hardware and the server process
[8:10] Zero Linden: you'd best get along well with your neighbors
[8:10] Khamon Fate: Does it cost $3600US a year to colo a web server?
[8:10] Wyn Galbraith tried explaining that to someone complaining about the pricing of 'land'.
[8:10] Zero Linden: as it is hard, even with controls and quotas, to make things perfectly equitable
[8:11] Wyn Galbraith notes that you can pick your land but not your neighbors.
[8:11] Zero Linden: Khamon - that depends on what class of hardware, and with who you do it
[8:11] Jarod Godel: Zero, yep. Good analogy.
[8:11] Zero Linden: There are plenty of colos that cost more
[8:11] Zero Linden: remember, someone at LL is managing that machine, and keeping it up to date, and generally doing much more with a sim than a webhosting provider does
[8:12] Zero Linden: running apache on a virtual partition of a single box for you
[8:12] Khamon Fate: Wow, I just rent web server space for teh cheap. I suppose that's why I own Mainland too, so I can just pay $195 a month rather than $295.
[8:12] Wyn Galbraith: It's worth every penny... lenny?
[8:12] Zero Linden: Also, it takes bit more human power these days to run a sim than it does to run a web server...
[8:12] Khamon Fate: Yeah it's less automated.
[8:13] Zero Linden: But, one day, we can all look to the day when sim hosting comes in a variety of flavors!
[8:13] Jarod Godel: When will that change?
[8:13] Jarod Godel: I mean...
[8:13] Jarod Godel: Will these scaling upgrades help that?
[8:13] Zero Linden: Scaling and the next years worth of architectural changes
[8:14] Zero Linden: Think of it this way - when the web was nascent, each web server was basically hand administered by some sys op
[8:14] Babbage Linden: there is technical scaling (allowing more residents or sims)
[8:14] Zero Linden: there was only one choice of software, and it was quirky
[8:14] Babbage Linden: and organisational scaling (allowing other people to help run sims)
[8:14] Babbage Linden: we're looking at both
[8:14] Babbage Linden: and we need both
[8:15] Wyn Galbraith would love to help run a sim.
[8:15] Zero Linden: We've done the first version of the server -- now we need to redo it with everything we've learned about running sim. servers, and build a more flexible, easier to run version
[8:15] Zero Linden: and be "redo" I do *not* mean re-write from scratch -- that'd be silly
[8:15] Wyn Galbraith understands the terms, Zero.
[8:16] Zero Linden: Just didn't want anyone worrying -- re-writing the code base to SL from scratch would be a fool's errand
[8:16] Jarod Godel: You guys aren't Mozilla, after all. ;)
[8:17] Zha Ewry nods. Of course.. no matter what you do.. the grid's basic complixty if more of a 3 tier enterpeise application server envirnoment thand flat page serving
[8:17] Zero Linden: I like to think that we've learned from our peers
[8:18] Zero Linden: Other topics?
[8:19] Khamon Fate: Babbage have you worked with the flexible prim code?
[8:19] Babbage Linden: no
[8:19] Zha Ewry: A week or two back.. we mentioned some access to stats/health of the grid for people
[8:19] Babbage Linden: just mono and networking
[8:20] Zha Ewry: Sort of core health stats... so people had a clue.
[8:20] Jarod Godel: Babbage, any chance we'll be able to run NPC's soon?
[8:21] Zero Linden: No news on stats... but I'll poke around internally on that
[8:21] Zha Ewry: thx
[8:21] Babbage Linden: jarod, it depends
[8:21] Jarod Godel: ?
[8:21] Babbage Linden: you can build pretty stupid scripted prims now
[8:21] Khamon Fate: Is the Firstlook project going to continue? or was that a one off leading to 1.14?
[8:22] Zha Ewry: Babbage.. I don't konw if you've seen the transcripts.. One thing we've talked about would be a way for sim owners to allow different balance points on things like
[8:22] Zha Ewry: total number of sciprts vs. script data segment size. How hard would that be?
[8:22] Babbage Linden: or you can send chat to web servers and do something cleverer
[8:22] Babbage Linden: but having npc monsters chasing people around is a way off
[8:22] Babbage Linden: and not a priority
[8:22] Zero Linden: Khamon - First Look was the lead up to 1.14. There will be more viewer work, and we may continue to call it "First Look", but for now, those features rolled into 1.14
[8:22] Jarod Godel: I meant avatar-based npc's like ActiveWorlds has
[8:23] Babbage Linden: there was an early decision to make everything that looked like a person have a human attached to it
[8:23] Zero Linden: Which brings up an important small change that is less than a month off
[8:23] Jarod Godel: I may be asking something best left for the libsecondlife guys...
[8:23] Babbage Linden: i think that works well
[8:23] Babbage Linden: yes, libsecondlife is the easiest way to make a computer controlled avatar at the moment
[8:24] Zero Linden: Once "the day of Liberation" happens for the message template (slated for late this month)
[8:24] Jarod Godel: Babbage, thanks.
[8:24] Khamon Fate: Firstlook was a brilliant method of feature integration. I think y'all should continue it perpetually.
[8:24] Zero Linden: Then the simulators and viewers can be rev'd independently
[8:24] Zero Linden: this allows us to do things like "First Look" easily
[8:25] Khamon Fate: Shall we plan Liberation Parties?
[8:25] Zero Linden: The viewers will belong to "Channels" -- the "release" channle, the "first look" channel, the "wonky beta" channel
[8:25] Zero Linden: when you log in, you'll be prompted to get the latest revision in the channel that viewer is part of
[8:25] Babbage Linden wants to wear a beret to a liberation party
[8:25] Zero Linden: we'll be able to manage their revision lines separately
[8:25] Khamon Fate: So the hope of having flexible prims properly rendered post scripted movement is pretty slim.
[8:25] Zero Linden: Yes - we'll have major liberation day parties!
[8:25] Khamon Fate: There'll be too many viewer versions out there to debug wonky effects.
[8:26] Jarod Godel: True revolutionists use hammers.
[8:26] Zero Linden: Berets! Hammers! Margaritas!
[8:26] Zha Ewry: Che Guevrra shirts
[8:26] Wyn Galbraith notes that when the only tool you have is a hammer everything looks like a nail.
[8:27] Zero Linden: Or in our case, everything looks like an LLSD
[8:27] Khamon Fate: Jarod's hammer is a calculator.
[8:27] Khamon Fate: It also blogs chat for him.
[8:27] Zero Linden: Well - it is about time
[8:28] Babbage Linden: yes, we should get back to building this stuff
[8:28] Wyn Galbraith: Well this was special, two Lindens for the price of one ;)
[8:28] Zero Linden: Indeed -- oh look, James Linden just walked in the office here
[8:28] Zero Linden: Well, folks, thanks again for coming
[8:28] Jarod Godel: Later.
[8:28] Zha Ewry: Hey Thanks as always folks
[8:28] Babbage Linden: nice to meet you all
[8:28] Jarod Godel: Thanks, Zero, Babbge
[8:28] Zero Linden: 'til next time (Tuesday at 1pm, as usualy)
[8:29] Wyn Galbraith: Thanks for having us Zero, always a good way to learn the heart of SL here.
[8:29] Jarod Godel: Thanks for thye gadget, Babbage.
[8:29] Khamon Fate: And Thank You Zero for hosting and you Baggage for encouraging words.
[8:29] Zha Ewry: Zero.. You're ever a more broad conduit here.
[8:29] Wyn Galbraith: Thanks Babbage.
[8:29] Zha Ewry: We really appreciate it
[8:29] Zero Linden: You're welcome
[8:29] Jarod Godel: /em clap
[8:29] Babbage Linden: you're all very welcome
[8:29] Khamon Fate: Hi James
[8:29] Zha Ewry: And thanks for stopping in Babbage. (We don't bite.. you see)
[8:29] Head Replacement: yep, thanks :)
[8:29] Khamon Fate: Oh I forget that waving pours coffee all over me.
[8:29] Head Replacement: can we eat Babbage now?
[8:29] Head Replacement: oops
[8:29] Babbage Linden: bye!