User:Zero Linden/Office Hours/2007 Apr 12

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Transcript of Zero Linden's office hours:

[7:33] Khamon Fate: hi zero
[7:33] Rex Cronon: hello zero
[7:33] Zero Linden: hello all
[7:33] Zero Linden: wow - I've never seend an "Away" avatar before
[7:33] Zero Linden: but Tree's takes the cake!
[7:35] Rex Cronon: how long has tree been waiting in your office:)
[7:35] Khamon Fate: Plants are very patient
[7:35] Zero Linden: Don't know - but I guess it means that I should get donuts or other snacks for my guests!
[7:36] Khamon Fate: Nitrogen nodules go well on crackers
[7:36] Rex Cronon: cosidering that food is virtual, maybe entertainment is more appropiate:)
[7:36] Zha Ewry exhales some Co2 at Khamon
[7:36] Rex Cronon: hi zha
[7:36] Zero Linden: What?!?!? My message system block diagram isn't entertaining enough?
[7:36] Khamon Fate sehtaerb deeply
[7:37] Zha Ewry: Hey all
[7:37] Wyn Galbraith *yawns* Good morning... Beautiful sunrise.
[7:37] Rex Cronon: people like moving pictures zero:)
[7:37] Zha Ewry smiles @ khamon, glad some extra O2 will be soon delivered
[7:37] Khamon Fate: Hi Zha whose name is really hard for me to type
[7:38] Zha Ewry blinks. It's short, and all on the left hand! (Although the Shift-Z does take some effort)
[7:38] Rex Cronon: good moring
[7:38] Rex Cronon: morning*
[7:38] Zero Linden: Khamon - you must not touch type: "Zha" is strict alternation!
[7:38] Zero Linden: Oh no.... Tree snuffed out at last....
[7:39] Zha Ewry does touch type, But doesn't have a lot of trouble with her own name. Not that she types it *all* that often
[7:39] Khamon Fate: I type an H with my right hand unless it's ^H then I type the H with my right
[7:39] Khamon Fate: left
[7:39] Wyn Galbraith: Well, he was all bones by now anyway.
[7:39] Rex Cronon: something wrong with this sim?
[7:39] Khamon Fate: What's a touch type? I only type traditionally and only around seventy words a minute
[7:39] Zero Linden: No - sim stats look fine to me
[7:40] Wyn Galbraith touch types.
[7:40] Khamon Fate: What I HATE is having to let go of the keyboard to mouse.
[7:40] Zha Ewry contemplates that toddler typing is probably the reason she often used the left hand too much. One hand for the keyboard, one to keep the toddler at bay.
[7:40] Zero Linden did that too
[7:40] Rex Cronon: each time i come to this sim i have red bars in the top right corner:(
[7:40] Khamon Fate: It's actually quicker for me to backspace over and retype a few words than maniuplate the mouse to correct errors.
[7:40] Zero Linden: I actually considered getting a chord keyboard so I could type one handed when my son was little
[7:40] Khamon Fate: Linden sims have always been laggy
[7:41] Zero Linden: Yes, it is the extra weight of carrying god-mode avatars that makes them slow....
[7:41] Wyn Galbraith: I alpha tested a cord keyboard years ago, there were four toggles for each hand.
[7:41] Zero Linden winks
[7:41] Rex Cronon: this one has been for the last moth or so
[7:41] Khamon Fate: They don't set very good examples of respecting people's fps
[7:41] Zero Linden: Well, I think we are all here
[7:42] Zero Linden: Alas, no guest Lindens this week
[7:42] Wyn Galbraith: Ah.
[7:42] Khamon Fate: Do you want me to remind you to remind us that you will publish the transcript?
[7:42] Khamon Fate: we want brent we want brent we want brent
[7:42] Khamon Fate: oh and steve
[7:42] Espresso Demi Tasse whispers: Now THAT will open your eyes!
[7:42] Khamon Fate: oh and that girl too that does the thing
[7:43] Zero Linden: Ah, yes, I'm reminded to remind you all that the trasncript will be published on the wiki. Speak and be read!
[7:43] Zero Linden: Well, those will be hard: Brent doesn't wake up this early.... and Steve is on a well deserved vacation
[7:43] Rex Cronon: i have some question
[7:43] Khamon Fate: So when I say that the Lindens generally don't set very good examples of respecting other people's frame rates I really just mean that well no that's exactly what I mean.
[7:44] Zero Linden: Khamon I have no idea what that means, actually - the viewer frame rates and the sim frame rate are not tied together at all
[7:44] Rex Cronon: not even the physics fps?
[7:44] Zero Linden queues Rex's Q.
[7:44] Wyn Galbraith always learns good stuff lurking here.
[7:45] Zero Linden: Rex - no actually physics FPS is now a misnomer
[7:45] Khamon Fate: No but building techniques affect demands on local GPUs and bandwidth.
[7:45] Zero Linden: the simulator now has only one frame cycle - so physics is locked to it
[7:45] Khamon Fate: Look at the size of most of the library textures
[7:45] Zero Linden: I see, you concern is that Linden's build builds that are have high prim counts and complex textures....
[7:46] Khamon Fate: See the number of textures and complex primmage in a typical Linden build
[7:46] Rex Cronon: first question: can the viewer request confirmation when giving things to others?
[7:46] Zero Linden: Actually, this region seems quite low to me: only 4400 objects, only 110 scripted
[7:46] Khamon Fate: They're pretty, but they set very poor examples for newbies
[7:46] Zha Ewry actually rarely curses texture density.. It's baddly done scripts she find drive lag
[7:46] Khamon Fate: The village has proved more tame than previous building areas that's true.
[7:46] Zero Linden: and only 1340 textures in my cameras view
[7:47] Zero Linden: Rex - are you asking if the viewer could add an extra dialog of confirmation to the use when dragging inventory?
[7:47] Wyn Galbraith: What are you doing Zha?
[7:47] Zha Ewry: Sitting, so I'm not in the air...
[7:48] Wyn Galbraith: Oh I moved.
[7:48] Zha Ewry: Textuire lag.. is I would hope.. mostly a tradeoff on hardware/bandwidth and settings
[7:48] Rex Cronon: not really, lets say i have a weapon in my invetory, if sim is laggy and someobody moves where i want to rezz it, i end up giving it to that person
[7:49] Zero Linden: Rex - that's a new one to me....
[7:49] Zero Linden: But I understand it
[7:50] Zero Linden: Of course, how would the viewer "know" that you were intending to rez it, rather than give it? So basically it'd have to add a confirmation step
[7:50] Zha Ewry blinks. That would be *quite* laggy. I mean i can see it happening.. but ouch.
[7:50] Khamon Fate: I've seen that happen too.
[7:50] Zero Linden: even chaning the cursor wouldn't work
[7:50] Zero Linden: as moving AVs could happen quickly
[7:50] Khamon Fate: I don't stay in areas that lag me that badly anymore, just don't bother for any reason.
[7:50] Rex Cronon: also, some people attach big prims to them, so if u don't pay attention u giving it to them
[7:51] Zero Linden: Though I could see a viewer side feature like "[x] Confirm first inventory to a given Avatar"
[7:51] Rex Cronon: yes the viewer should ask for confirmation
[7:51] Zero Linden: where the first time you drag something on to a specific AV, you get a dialog
[7:51] Zero Linden: and then they go on a list
[7:51] Khamon Fate: Yes just like people putting large invisible prims over payment boxes to collect the money themselves.
[7:51] Zero Linden: so you don't get bothered by multiple drags in the future
[7:51] Rex Cronon: not only the first time, every time
[7:51] Zha Ewry thinks for a long moment. Its only on rez... and only lagging...
[7:52] Khamon Fate: If you add a dialog to confirm giving things to people, PLEASE make it optional.
[7:52] Kitto Flora: When is LL going to fix that bug?
[7:52] Zha Ewry nods. Extrsa confirms are painful.
[7:52] Zero Linden: Well - every time brings up the confirmation dialog box dilemma that plagues all UI designers
[7:52] Zero Linden: Extra confirms reduce mistakes but induce friction so reduce use
[7:53] Zha Ewry nods @ zero.. Among other things.. people get habituated to ckicking yes, anyway
[7:53] Rex Cronon: image that i am working on a self-replicator, and i give it to a griefer
[7:53] Khamon Fate: And in a broader sense, laggy areas cause people to leave and not come back
[7:53] Zero Linden: Right, which then is the worst of all: doesn't reduce mistakes, but increases friction
[7:53] Zha Ewry nods
[7:53] Zero Linden: BUT,
[7:53] Khamon Fate: managing a build is like designing a website that downloads and renders quickly
[7:53] Khamon Fate: with thumbnails and such
[7:53] Zero Linden: at the risk of sounding like a parrot - the viewer is open source - that is a reasonable UI experiment to make
[7:54] Zero Linden: go for it!
[7:54] Rex Cronon: and i usually work at SWT, so that is a real possibility
[7:54] Khamon Fate: It is true, we can build those widgets ourselves now
[7:54] Zero Linden: I was demoing for several hours yesterday at Standford's "Cool Products Expo"
[7:54] Zero Linden: and I must have told people something to that effect a hundred times
[7:54] Jarod Godel: Khamon, does MySpace mean nothing to you?
[7:55] Khamon Fate: Liana might be interested in hearing that idea Rex. She's looking for open source community prods.
[7:55] Khamon Fate: zap zap
[7:55] Rex Cronon: lets say i implement that zero, how would that end up in the viewer that SL realeases
[7:55] Jarod Godel: He said prodUCTS not Cattle Prods.
[7:55] Khamon Fate: MySpace is horrible because they DON'T limit the amount of material people can post on a page.
[7:55] Zero Linden: Rex - it is open source - so it may or may not
[7:56] Zero Linden: you can submit the change to us as a patch
[7:56] Khamon Fate: Some of those homepages start downloading gigabytes of video as soon as you browse to them.
[7:56] Jarod Godel: Khamon, but it's popular "because they DON'T limit the amount of material people can post on a page."
[7:56] Khamon Fate: Some SL builds do that too.
[7:56] Zero Linden: we'd have to decide if that is a feature we wanted to add to our viewer, and if so incorporated it
[7:56] Rex Cronon: can i submit only the header and body of classes that i make changes to?
[7:56] Khamon Fate: But an open source solution is the best type of use case y'all can review eh.
[7:56] Zero Linden: On the other hand, like all open source, you can simply publish the patch and/or built viewers on your own
[7:56] Khamon Fate: Even better than posting to the wiki
[7:57] Zero Linden: Rex - patches
[7:57] Jarod Godel: I'm not disagreeing with the pragmatism behind your point, just that if Linden Lab wants to attract the homeyblingtards (can I say that?) they have to appeal in a similar manner.
[7:57] Zero Linden: submit patches
[7:57] Tree Kyomoon: homeyblingtards? are you don imus or something?
[7:58] Khamon Fate: I hope a plugin type patch makes the cut at some point.
[7:58] Jarod Godel: No, but I was trying to sneak an Imus joke in there. Thank you. :)
[7:58] Zero Linden: Jarod - it is a big virtual world - homeyblingtards, aestitic monks, artistic minimalists, furries and all
[7:58] Khamon Fate: The term is Blingy Homemakers.
[7:58] Jarod Godel: heh heh @ Zero
[7:58] Khamon Fate: You must use it with all affection.
[7:59] Kitto Flora: I have a question about Simulators thrashing for ages, probably after a backaup operation.
[7:59] Zero Linden: sure Kitto
[7:59] Zero Linden: let's discuss "backup"
[7:59] Kitto Flora: Hourly save?
[7:59] Zero Linden: so there isn't really a "backup" operation. Instead there is a fork and a save of the sim state file
[8:00] Zero Linden: which is first written locally to disk, then gzip'd then lastly uploaded to the asset server
[8:00] Kitto Flora: In a 'good' sim that lags things for a minute, maybe two
[8:00] Khamon Fate: So sims can reboot to a last known good state?
[8:00] Zero Linden: Probably the biggest contributors to the lag are (I'm guessing a bit here):
[8:01] Zero Linden: 1) Script state - it all has to get written out!
[8:01] Zero Linden: 2) That a host has four sims and we don't expressly stagger those checkpoints
[8:01] Zha Ewry: How much state does a sim hold? I assume mostly it's a prim list... and the terrain...
[8:02] Zero Linden: Sim state: terrain map, parcel map, weather map, prim list, inventory of those prims, state of every script
[8:02] Zero Linden: And then a host of miscelaneous settings on the region
[8:02] Kitto Flora: The Statistics number I see going through the roof is for 'Images Time' - goes into the seconds.
[8:02] Zero Linden: Now images is time spent shuttling images to viewers
[8:03] Zero Linden: right now that goes through this path: Asset Server -> Squid Cache on sim host -> Simulator -> Viewer
[8:03] Tree Kyomoon: wouldnt it be faster if images came from other ips instead of SL?
[8:03] Zero Linden: The simulator itself caches thoes images in memory and on disk
[8:03] Wyn Galbraith ponders, "Textures and scripts are what make SL go 'round. How can you limit the burden and still get the effect wanted?
[8:03] Zero Linden: When HTTP Textures ships, the path will be
[8:04] Kitto Flora: Yes... I'm thinking of banning certains vendors...
[8:04] Zha Ewry: You can only cache out stuff that is mostly static...
[8:04] Zero Linden: Asset Server -> Squid on sim host -> Backbone server on sim host -> Viewer
[8:04] Kitto Flora: The suspicion is that some vendor code is doing something with images that causes this effect
[8:04] Zero Linden: The Backbone server is just being an HTTP proxy (for capabilities), so the data just moves in and right out
[8:04] Zha Ewry: So.. some textures.. sure... But hardly all of them
[8:04] Tree Kyomoon: why not webhost-->client
[8:04] Tree Kyomoon: for an image path
[8:05] Zha Ewry: Frankly.. better cache management, on the client... would be the biggest win.. especially for the places we re-visit a lot.
[8:05] Zero Linden: Well - if the vendor is constantly changing it's image.... and you've got say 200 vendors, each rotating among 25 textures
[8:05] Zero Linden: (this is not uncommon in some malls)
[8:05] Zero Linden: that is 5000 textues just for the vendors
[8:05] Rex Cronon: so what happens if i have a prim that has 254 links, and each link has inside 256 objects , and each of these objects is made out of 5000 prims?????
[8:05] Tree Kyomoon: right, so if the images were coming directly from their server to thier clients, sl is out of the picture
[8:05] Zero Linden: all of that is going to be moving through the sim
[8:05] Wyn Galbraith: Ah that explains the lag in large malls, which I now avoid.
[8:06] Zero Linden: Tree - once we have HTTP textures, where they are still coming from our asset store - we can do that
[8:06] Zero Linden: but there is great benefit to just getting the sim out of th eloop
[8:06] Kitto Flora: Is that likely to have a problem triggered by the backup operation?
[8:06] Kitto Flora: (the image handling)
[8:06] Zero Linden: sims shouldn't be in the business of caching texture data -- Squid is quite capable, thank you very much
[8:07] Tree Kyomoon: yes, thats what I mean, SL would work like a web browser
[8:07] Zha Ewry wonders if the backup fork flushes the images out of the squid or the sim...
[8:07] Zero Linden: Kitto - IF there are lots of textures in a region, then the simulator's memory foot print is going to bloat
[8:07] Tree Kyomoon: as far as images are concerend
[8:07] Zero Linden: and in turn, during checkpoint, that means that memory will start swapping
[8:07] Zero Linden: Let's take an example - do you have a region in mind?
[8:07] Kitto Flora: Anyway to tell is a sim is mem swapping (for us Avtals)?
[8:08] Jarod Godel: Zero, for all intents (as far as the client is concerned) uploaded images and HTTP images come from the same place, right?
[8:08] Kitto Flora: Webworm Sim
[8:08] Kitto Flora: Big mall - sume huge supicious vendors - probably hundreds of images
[8:08] Tree Kyomoon: Jarod, if that is the case, its amazing SL works at all
[8:09] Kitto Flora: Sim will thatsh for 40 mins+ each hour.
[8:10] Zero Linden: okay
[8:10] Wyn Galbraith: Is that all textures whether they're hidden or not?
[8:10] Zero Linden: so at pesent, that sim is taking 670M of VM
[8:10] Zero Linden: that is over our allocated size of 512M
[8:10] Kitto Flora: Ah!
[8:10] Zero Linden: So, yes, there is oging to be trashing when that region checkpoints
[8:10] Kitto Flora: doubles for f&d?
[8:11] Khamon Fate: Can we see that stat, amount of memory being demanded by the VM?
[8:11] Zero Linden: by comparison, this region is taking 330M right now
[8:11] Wyn Galbraith: How do we check that on the sim?
[8:11] Zero Linden: Wyn- you can't - I had to ssh into the sim machine and run top!
[8:11] Wyn Galbraith: Darn.
[8:11] Kitto Flora: Durn
[8:11] Zha Ewry blinks. Sheesh. Top
[8:12] Tree Kyomoon: so are you saying it would be worse if the individual images all came to the client from different ips rather than all being shunted through SL and the sims?
[8:12] Kitto Flora: Would love to run some tests watching that number and removing some vendors....
[8:12] Khamon Fate: Some of us will work conciencously to keep lag down in our areas if we have access to sufficient monitoring tools.
[8:12] Wyn Galbraith: So there's no LSL function that can call that info?
[8:12] Zero Linden: Okay - Tree - no, I'm not BUT there are some down sides to images coming from sites hosted outside LL's servers:
[8:12] Zero Linden: 1) many residents don't have web server space
[8:13] Zero Linden: 2) your inworld expereince would be dependant on those external servers
[8:13] Zero Linden: if they're down or slow - the world seems slow
[8:13] Khamon Fate: I like Top
[8:13] Zero Linden: for a private island, sure, not a big deal
[8:13] Khamon Fate: I like tcpdump too
[8:13] Zha Ewry loves top.. Just not sure that it's the ideal way to debug SL...
[8:13] Zero Linden: for the mainland, your neighbor's use of slow, or often down externally hosted images
[8:13] Khamon Fate: It's my favourite show
[8:13] Kitto Flora: Limiting the images in sim would be resonable
[8:13] Tree Kyomoon: well true, but thats how the open internet works too, you cant control and be responsible for everything forever
[8:13] Zero Linden: would mean your experience of your land would be plagued by grey textures next door
[8:14] Kitto Flora: This is a serious problem - I am seeing many regions becoming unusable - of blighted regions because of this problem.
[8:14] Zha Ewry: Well, yes and no. Tree. CNN doesn't expect random third party IPs to host thier core content
[8:14] Zero Linden: Kitto - in your case, yes
[8:14] Jarod Godel: Zero, wait a sec...we'd still have the option of uploading textures to inventory. 1 & 2 are a danger, but not certainty.
[8:14] Kitto Flora: People just abandon them.
[8:14] Zero Linden: learn to use the texture debug console
[8:14] Zero Linden: control-shift-3
[8:14] Zero Linden: to see what is in view and what is downloading
[8:14] Tree Kyomoon: yes, but cnn isnt "your world..your creation..."
[8:14] Zero Linden: Jarod - right
[8:14] Wyn Galbraith: Ah...
[8:14] Jarod Godel: And CNN may not rely on 3rd Party hosts, but theyu rely on Image servers to distribute the load.
[8:15] Zero Linden: So, HTTP Textures will improve sim performance by having that data flow through a different process
[8:15] Zero Linden: and not be cached in memory by the sim, improving sim memory foot print
[8:15] Rex Cronon: so let me get this straight, scripted objects that swich texture, lag the sim?
[8:15] Zero Linden: and ultimately things like thrashing during checkpoint
[8:15] Zero Linden: (or even, gasp, normal operation!)
[8:15] Tree Kyomoon: would be best to at least have the opiton of direct hosting of texutres to client anyway
[8:15] Khamon Fate: Yes Rex they do, and rotating objects not using llTargetOmega lag the sim
[8:15] Zero Linden: The next step, after HTTP Textures is deployed will be externally hosted textures
[8:16] Zha Ewry distribuing them is fine.... caching, with care is fine... But the notion that most textures might be third party hosted... and not anchored someplace dependable.. is problematic
[8:16] Zero Linden: which removes the burden from our servers entirely
[8:16] Jarod Godel: Tree, you're right, but this is at least a step in the right direction.
[8:16] Zero Linden: but it will induce some greater variability in user experience
[8:16] Khamon Fate: What's the difference between Total and Bound textures?
[8:16] Zero Linden: I believe that bound means loaded into OpenGL
[8:16] Zero Linden: Total is downloaded and held
[8:16] Jarod Godel: I hope once people start creating widgets that reload data from the web every so often, LL will realize they're going to have to decentralize more.
[8:16] Tree Kyomoon: agreed, and I understand the political reason for sl to retain control over the images
[8:17] Tree Kyomoon: at least for now
[8:17] Rex Cronon: than why does wiki say that in order to avoid lag, poeple shouldn't change prim collors but istead change texture?
[8:17] Zero Linden: Well- we don't want to retain control- just mostly ensure that the experience doesn't suck! (if that's the technical term...)
[8:18] Khamon Fate: I have another question. What does "Trying to send RequestImage on unknown circuit" mean? I've been seeing a lot of that since about 1.8
[8:18] Kitto Flora: Problem is - for the million-image vendors the experience does not suck much - Buyers just stand there looking at the thing - waiting of the next image... BUT
[8:18] Zero Linden: RequestImage is a message the viewer sends a sim to get a texture
[8:19] Kitto Flora: The rest of the people in the sim are trying to move through GLUE.
[8:19] Tree Kyomoon: well offering an internal image host while also allowing individual content creators to be responsible for thier own textures would definitely make the experience much better
[8:19] Wyn Galbraith: So if the vendors used the system of only changing images when touched, would that help lessen the load?
[8:19] Zero Linden: Unknown circuit means that a UDP connection has been lost
[8:19] Khamon Fate: So it's requesting the image from the sim not the squid?
[8:19] Zha Ewry: Tree, I think, that once the sim's off the crirical path.. the benefits of off LL hosting drop dramatically.
[8:20] Zero Linden: This usually happens when your viewer closes it's connection to a sim.... or when the connection to the sim isn't up yet,
[8:20] Zero Linden: but the viewer knows enough about hte area to start requesting textures from it
[8:20] Zero Linden: that stuff just falls on the floor until the connection is up
[8:20] Khamon Fate: Oh okay
[8:20] Zero Linden: or the viewer doesn't need the texture anymore
[8:20] Tree Kyomoon: reduced lag is not the main benefit
[8:20] Zero Linden: remember that the whole texture system is decoupled (thank goodness) from the networking layer
[8:20] Khamon Fate: YES PLEASE code your vendors to rotate textures when we push buttons rather than just rolling through them constantly
[8:21] Zha Ewry: You're currently bottlenecked... on the sim... If that stop.. LL ought to be able to just act as a high quality web cache..
[8:21] Khamon Fate: Although, we used to download all the textures stored in nearby prims. Do we still do that post occlussion?
[8:21] Zha Ewry nods.. Yes. Yes. Vendors which cycle images.. are lagolicious
[8:21] Zero Linden: Internally we've seen textures download 2x as fast using HTTP, but still coming from our servers
[8:21] Zero Linden: mind you, in the wild, it may not be that big of an improvement
[8:21] Zero Linden: but still, reducing the paths is a big win
[8:22] Rex Cronon: how about if the vendor has an animation with all the textures, would that reduce lag?
[8:22] Wyn Galbraith ponders those spinning ads people put up, "They could be a problem too, for those who 'live' in the sim with the 16sq ads.
[8:22] Zha Ewry: I assume, Zero.. once you're not dragging it down through the sim.. that image load won't lag people who are walking
[8:22] Tree Kyomoon: you would be surprised how good some people are at hosting images and offering web hosting services :)
[8:22] Zero Linden: All the content possibilities opened up by externally hosted textures is a bonus
[8:22] Zero Linden: Well - hard to say totally
[8:23] Zero Linden: So, on the one hand, sure, it won't because the sim isn't spending any time on images, and so can use it's alloted CPU cycles to do things like relay all the messages that happen when you wlak
[8:23] Zero Linden: *walk
[8:23] Kitto Flora: The root cause is that the sim mem is overloaded - too much stuff in mem to prevent swapping
[8:23] Kitto Flora: Is that true?
[8:23] Zero Linden: On the other hand, we've moved managment of those texture downloads to a different process on the same host
[8:23] Zero Linden: So while there are fewer cycles overall, we have simply shifted the rest of them
[8:23] Zha Ewry nods at tree, but observes that equally, people are bad at it. Would really be annoying to have random bits of the world broken, due to some badly configued random cheapo webhost someone used for some key textures.
[8:24] Tree Kyomoon: agreed, zha, but thats an open information world...a free world not controlled by a centralized government
[8:24] Tree Kyomoon: aka the internet
[8:25] Zero Linden: Sure - but again, the mainland experience is more shared - we are more dependent on our neighbors
[8:25] Zha Ewry is only going to look at he technical points. The philosophy.. she'll leave to others
[8:25] Zero Linden: That all said, there is definite agreement here at Linden that we should go forward with externally hosted images
[8:25] Wyn Galbraith notes that 'most' neighbors don't care. Those that do are rare.
[8:25] Zero Linden: and thank you all again for your weeks of input on the issue
[8:26] Tree Kyomoon: it makes sense to me that external images wouldnt be allowed on the mainland, as that is "controlled" by linden
[8:26] Kitto Flora: Webworm is a mainland sim thats 100% owned by one person
[8:26] Tree Kyomoon: lindens are responsible for the experience there
[8:26] Tree Kyomoon: but on islands,
[8:26] Kitto Flora: Total; control. But almost no diagnostics.
[8:26] Tree Kyomoon: it would be the responsibility of the iland owner
[8:27] Zero Linden: Oh - I think we'll allow them anywhere - it is just a matter of communication, education -
[8:27] Kitto Flora: On islands we can do better. I rarely - if ever has seen an island sim have these problems.
[8:27] Zero Linden: and perhaps some level of control (to be worked out)
[8:27] Rex Cronon: sorry to inform u u Zero, but 1 office hour twice a week is not enough:( just when things get interesting, your office hour ends:(
[8:27] Kitto Flora: Teres 1pm too?
[8:27] Tree Kyomoon: yes!
[8:27] Zha Ewry: Tree, one ting to consider.. is that over time.. the structure ought to get to the point where you have island sims which aren't even owned by LL.. I tink that to an extent.. the current situation is biased in lots of funnny ways as the whole set of servers is one large cloud, which isn't a stable story from the internet perspective
[8:27] Zero Linden: Oh dear -
[8:28] Zero Linden: well - if you had more of me, I'd have less time to actually DO any of this stuff!
[8:28] Zero Linden: But thank you for the compliment
[8:28] Zha Ewry: Zero... You just need to get a few of your peers to be as open...
[8:28] Wyn Galbraith: We want you to work, Zero, truly we do ;)
[8:28] Kitto Flora: Oh yes!
[8:28] Zero Linden: Kitty - 1pm on Tuesday, 7:30am on Thursday
[8:29] Kitto Flora is stuck in RL then :(
[8:29] Zero Linden: Zha - working on it... working on it
[8:29] Zha Ewry: and when we're lucky.. he brings along other Lindens
[8:29] Zha Ewry: And we try to be nice, so they'll come back
[8:29] Zero Linden: I had a discussion with a Ventural Capital guy at Stanford yesterday
[8:29] Tree Kyomoon: yes, I get very upset when I have to miss these discussions
[8:29] Wyn Galbraith can give them candy ;)
[8:29] Zero Linden: I was explaining Linden's open culture - and how I share engineering works in progress here with you
[8:30] Tree Kyomoon: watch out for those guys...they are sometimes one step above loan sharks
[8:30] Wyn Galbraith: Did he cringe?
[8:30] Zero Linden: he was very impressed and noted that he saw how this new model of how a company approaches its work was beneficial
[8:30] Zero Linden: ...and how hard it was for "old guard" companies to buck what they've been doing for several hundred years
[8:31] Zha Ewry: Well. the give an take.. as we have a group of people with hard issues and requirements.. is great. I think some of what I hear, from
[8:31] Zero Linden: He personally has been trying to encourage this sort of thing - but has found much resistance
[8:31] Wyn Galbraith nods, "That's good. Since SL is all about doing things in different ways. That's why I'm here."
[8:31] Zha Ewry: the other people here, asking question,, havign opinions.. pointing things out.. is just as important as what Zero says, at times.
[8:32] Tree Kyomoon: this is an excellent forum
[8:32] Zha Ewry: Lets me re-think issues, and think hard about them.. And it's pretty unique
[8:32] Wyn Galbraith: I learn a lot that helps me understand what I build and script, and how it works with the SL world. I find this time valuable even if I just lurk and listen.
[8:32] Zero Linden: Yes - I view this as very two way. This dialog really helps me do what I do.
[8:33] Wyn Galbraith: You're not just some programmer locked in a padded cell, Zero.
[8:33] Kitto Flora: Engineering openness is not unusual at all... RL we tell customers whats being fixed in products. But we do have a 100% bug-fix policy.
[8:33] Rex Cronon: not enough lindens have open office hours. and is hard to find who has office hours:(
[8:33] Wyn Galbraith notes they should have done that with one of the original WordStar programmers who liked to throw printers through walls.
[8:34] Zero Linden: When it comes to the technical companies in Silicon Valley - most companies operate under the "new products are secrets" rule
[8:34] Kitto Flora:
[8:34] Zero Linden: and "new features" too
[8:34] Kitto Flora: Office hours link
[8:34] Rex Cronon: thanks:)
[8:34] Wyn Galbraith: Ah thanks Kitto, I keep losing that link.
[8:34] Kitto Flora: New products yes -
[8:34] Tree Kyomoon: yes, fear aned paranoia still unfortunately rule
[8:34] Tree Kyomoon: but the internet is changing that
[8:34] Zero Linden: Look at that! Kelly Linden is now holding office hours - 11am Monday
[8:35] Zero Linden: He's another software engineer here
[8:35] Kitto Flora: Existing products - you show me a bug, and I'll fix it in 24 hours, you get the patched code the next day
[8:35] Zero Linden: Nice to have that kind of work environment, Kitto
[8:35] Zha Ewry: Sl is funny in that there is no set of producs, but rather features being added to the set. I think, in time.. that's gonig to be more and more common.
[8:35] Wyn Galbraith: Oh goody another programmer to haunt ;)
[8:35] Tree Kyomoon: yes, zha, thats my company model too
[8:36] Zha Ewry: We're slowly (the whole indsutry) pushing towards content thats in smaller chunks, and more distributed
[8:36] Zero Linden: Yes, the boundary of "product" was totally smeared bythe internet
[8:36] Kitto Flora: We make the products, and sell them :)
[8:36] Zero Linden: Well all, it is that time again. I must away.....
[8:36] Zero Linden: Thanks again for all coming. See you next week.
[8:36] Zha Ewry: People and companies who really get SOA and Software a sServices... etc.. Will find "prooducts" rarer and rarer
[8:36] Kitto Flora: Byebye!
[8:36] Wyn Galbraith: Bye Zero, thanks.
[8:36] Tree Kyomoon: thanks again zero
[8:36] Kitto Flora: TYVM
[8:36] Zha Ewry: Bye, and thanks as always Zero
[8:36] Rex Cronon: bye zero