User:Zero Linden/Office Hours/2007 Jun 12

Transcript of Zero Linden's office hours:

[13:03]	Zero Linden:	So - is this Linden guy ever going to show up?!?!?!
[13:03]	Dale Glass:	hiya :-)
[13:04]	Zero Linden:	My first week back after paternity leave
[13:04]	Zero Linden:	I'm still a little out of it!
[13:05]	Dale Glass:	congrats :-)
[13:05]	Zero Linden:	thanks
[13:05]	Squirrel Wood:	Congrats :)
[13:05]	Dale Glass:	Rob recommended me to visit you, but I never managed before due to time issues. Now I don't really remember what I wanted to ask, though :-D
[13:06]	Zero Linden:	Ah - well something about the infrastructure and or architecture and or the future and or obscure programming language trivia....
[13:06]	Zero Linden:	?
[13:07]	Squirrel's Fortune Cookie: Here's some wisdom for you:
[13:07]	Squirrel's Fortune Cookie: An artist discovers his genius the day he dares not to please. -- Andre Malraux
[13:07]	Dale Glass:	hmm, I heard some time ago you were planning a switch to Jabber
[13:07]	Dale Glass:	is that still in progress?
[13:08]	Zero Linden:	No - actually, that isn't quite correct
[13:08]	Zero Linden:	a long time ago we looked into Jabber
[13:08]	Zero Linden:	no work was done or designed for it
[13:08]	forcefield whispers:	Forcefield ON!
[13:08]	Rex Cronon:	hello everybody
[13:08]	Squirrel Wood:	Hmmm... Do you have any guesstimate as to when SL will be graced with the latest in physics engineness?
[13:08]	Squirrel Wood:	Yellow ^^
[13:09]	Khamon Fate:	Hi Zero, wb
[13:09]	Zero Linden:	no, alas, I don't have an estimate. There has been some investigation. In any event, realize that the goal of new physics
[13:09]	Zero Linden:	won't be to be able to bounce more steel balls in a sim at once
[13:09]	Zero Linden:	it will be stability
[13:09]	Squirrel Wood:	stability is what I seek ^^
[13:09]	Zero Linden:	Hello Rex and Khamon!
[13:09]	Zero Linden:	woot! The regulars didn't give up on me!
[13:09]	Squirrel Wood:	Cause I do have a physics roller coaster that, every once in a while, tends to cause the sim to go down for a reboot
[13:10]	Christian Colville:	Hi Zero, everyone..
[13:10]	Rex Cronon:	did u have office hours last week zero?
[13:10]	Zero Linden:	Welcome all
[13:10]	Rex Cronon:	hi
[13:10]	Zero Linden:	I didn't - don't know if the folks I left being guests took up the slack for all three weeks
[13:10]	Khamon Fate:	Are we ever going to be able to keep IM windows closed or am I gonna have to drop 1/2 my groups
[13:10]	Zha Ewry:	Welcome back Zero
[13:10]	Zero Linden:	but I'm back now
[13:10]	Zero Linden:	Hello Zha
[13:11]	Squirrel Wood gave you Fortune Cookie.
[13:11]	Squirrel Wood:	fortune cookieness ^^
[13:12]	Zha Ewry:	Hate twitchy sitsd
[13:12]	Zero Linden:	some day we'll all come up with a whole new animation format that will work for resizable avatars in some logical fashion
[13:13]	Zero Linden:	The problem is that at present the only formats assume you are animating a particular sized avatar
[13:13]	Rex Cronon:	btw, if u crash often turn off particles, that seems to stabilze the viewer. maybe zero knoww why does that happen
[13:13]	Zero Linden:	we then have to do all sorts of stuff to "adapt" it to the current avatar shape
[13:13]	Zero Linden:	or at least, that is how I understand it....
[13:13]	Zero Linden:	But hey - it serves!
[13:14]	Squirrel Wood:	Why do scripts toss an " Couldn't find notecard 00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000000" error when trying to read a mod/copy/no transfer notecard?
[13:14]	Zero Linden:	So - since I'm just back from three weeks of being immersed in baby stuff ... I don't have much to report or talk about
[13:14]	Zero Linden:	I thought I'd collect some ideas for topics to be covered in future office hours
[13:15]	Zero Linden:	if I develope a topic list - I have a better chance of inviting other Linden engineers
[13:15]	Rex Cronon:	what is the status of html on a prim?
[13:15]	Zero Linden:	Squirrel - beats me
[13:15]	Squirrel Wood:	As soon as you set the notecard full perms it works
[13:15]	Christian Colville:	I'm interested in stuff planned to loosen the 1 processor = one and the same sim forever mapping
[13:16]	Zero Linden:	Don't know what the permission issue is with notecards and reading.... not sure
[13:16]	Zero Linden:	Christian - I don't think you understand the mapping - since that isn't true
[13:16]	Christian Colville:	oh ok
[13:16]	Christian Colville:	good!
[13:16]	Khamon Fate:	inventory has to be fully permed to return a non-null key
[13:16]	Zero Linden:	It is one CPU per region - but we happily start a region on any available CPU of the apprproiate class
[13:16]	Christian Colville:	ah ok
[13:17]	Khamon Fate:	i ran into that problem trying to get trees to apply textures from a parent's inventory
[13:17]	Zero Linden:	As for HTML on a prim, there are really three projects internall that are getting close
[13:17]	Khamon Fate:	i finally just put the keys in a list
[13:17]	Christian Colville:	so a region can move cpu on restart?
[13:17]	Zero Linden:	1) HTML on a media texture (much like the way we do Quick time on a texture) -- this is one per parcel
[13:17]	Zero Linden:	It puts a full browser on a prim face, and you can control what page it starts with
[13:17]	Zero Linden:	2) Textures to the viewer via HTTP
[13:18]	Zero Linden:	3) Textuers hosted on external (non-LL) servers
[13:18]	Zero Linden:	#3 requires #2
[13:18]	Dale Glass:	why only one per parcel?
[13:18]	Zero Linden:	#2 is the furthest along
[13:18]	Christian Colville:	1 sounds like an intensive process I should think
[13:18]	Zero Linden:	Dale - because it is handled like quick time - a single texture in your scene can be "replaced" with the browser window
[13:19]	Zero Linden:	And yes, because putting FULL BROWSERS on any arbitrary face would be prohibitive
[13:19]	Christian Colville:	so where are the textures held in 2?
[13:19]	Zero Linden:	Textures in #2 are still coming from the asset system
[13:19]	Dale Glass:	hmm, that's kinda disappointing. I was hoping to make a HUD with one of those
[13:19]	Zero Linden:	it is just that instead of having the viewer get them over the UDP message system - or even the new, LLSD/TCP based message system
[13:19]	Dale Glass:	llSetText is unfortunately very limited, so I was hoping to work around that with HTML
[13:19]	Zero Linden:	it just goes ahead and gets them via HTTP directly
[13:20]	Christian Colville:	yeah but Dale the poor server would have to render a full html page as a graphic for everyone who was using your HUD
[13:20]	Zero Linden:	Dale - see my wiki page and the use cases page
[13:20]	Jarod Godel:	Images on a prim are better than half as good as HTML on a prim.
[13:20]	Khamon Fate:	gotta run, thanks for hosting zero, y'all have a good meeeeeting
[13:20]	Zero Linden:	please add to it - I suspect you don't want a browser at all on a prim face, you just want a HTML rendered texture
[13:20]	Tree Kyomoon:	in #1 will flash be supported?
[13:20]	Zero Linden:	See ha, Khamon
[13:20]	Christian Colville:	I think SL could do with a vector display system which would solve the text problem
[13:20]	Rex Cronon:	why does the server have to render the html, the viewer can do that
[13:20]	Zero Linden:	Flahs has been a bugaboo for #1 - I think it has been gotten running, but not sure
[13:21]	Zha Ewry:	/becuaseu you don't get melded state if the client renders it
[13:21]	Zero Linden:	Rex - I didn't say anything about where the HTML was rendered :-)
[13:21]	Squirrel Wood:	The client could do... but what if someone sneaks in a corrupted jpeg? and in the end gets your system turned into a zombie
[13:21]	Zero Linden:	The issue is that all the memory and resources to support a full mozilla codebase browser is huge
[13:21]	Tree Kyomoon:	would be great even if they could only support flash 6 or 8
[13:21]	Christian Colville:	oh I see so in 2 the texture is transmitted via http whereas in 3 the prim has an address on a non LL server to fetch the texture from?
[13:22]	Tree Kyomoon:	youtube in sl here we come
[13:22]	Zero Linden:	rendering HTML and then just displaying it like a static texture is MUCH less resource intensive
[13:22]	Dale Glass:	Well, ideally wouldn't be a full browser, but not completely static either. Being able to set a texture to http://server.com/cgi?foo=bar would really help with some things. Ideally links should be clickable though. But I guess that could be faked if needed
[13:22]	Zero Linden:	I suspect, as a replacement for llSetText, only the later is need
[13:22]	Zero Linden:	in which case we could render it viewer or server side -
[13:22]	Tree Kyomoon:	I read that you are supporting cookies now too ...yay for that!
[13:23]	Zero Linden:	Christain - yes, well, in #3, texturs could come from either our servers or external servers, but all would be fetched via HTTP
[13:23]	Zero Linden:	as for the "corrupted jpeg", we run the jpeg libraries in "safe" mode to ensure that a messed up byte stream won't hose the viewer
[13:23]	Jarod Godel:	Dale, just make an interface with prims and have them talk to the "screen/page" prim. It's different than a 2D page, but then SL is (visually anyway) different than the 2D web.
[13:23]	Squirrel Wood:	^^
[13:23]	Zero Linden:	mind you, we don't think that "safe mode" is 100% perfect... but it is at least trying!
[13:24]	Dale Glass:	btw, I have this already coded in LSL, just the interface is not ideal. Anybody wants a copy?
[13:24]	Rex Cronon:	no thanks
[13:24]	Zero Linden:	There are a number of "browser" like things in LSL -- one example is my own Creative Commons machine that is a full Kiosk language
[13:24]	Christian Colville:	if you had a system for putting vector graphics on prims the text issue would be no problem
[13:25]	Jarod Godel:	Already got something similar for Flickr, so no thanks. :)
[13:25]	Rex Cronon:	yes SVG would be great:)
[13:25]	Zero Linden:	I don't see the advantage of inventing yet another graphics language and all existing ones support text rendering
[13:25]	Jarod Godel:	Kiosk language?
[13:25]	Christian Colville:	sure
[13:25]	Zero Linden:	Indeed - I like SVG - though it is pretty resource intensive
[13:26]	Jarod Godel:	oh, for arranging prims?
[13:26]	Tree Kyomoon:	svg would be a lot slower than flash
[13:26]	Zero Linden:	Jarod - yes, you set up images and their navigation flow via a notecard that maps out the links....
[13:26]	Zero Linden:	I've seen several such systems in SL
[13:26]	Christian Colville:	I imagine a great deal of network bandwidth both server/server and client/server goes on shipping textures about
[13:26]	Zero Linden:	I'm not sure why - there is nothing in SVG that is inheritly slower that I know of
[13:27]	Zero Linden:	and the problem with flash is - open source impleemtantions....
[13:27]	Christian Colville:	if more stuff was drawn with vectors it would save some of that I guess
[13:27]	Tree Kyomoon:	its because svg goes to ascii whereas flash is pcode
[13:27]	Jarod Godel:	I thought Adobe opened it up?
[13:27]	Tree Kyomoon:	lower level less to render
[13:27]	Tree Kyomoon:	and pcode is open yes
[13:27]	Zero Linden:	possibly - but now flash as a whole has a lot of baggage... so it is no longer the tiny system it once was
[13:27]	Tree Kyomoon:	but you can write svg in tags (ascii)
[13:27]	Dale Glass:	Well, actually, here's one thing I'd like: Support for drawing on a texture. Text, lines, circles, etc. The HTML on a prim thing would be an alternative to that for my intended usage
[13:27]	Zero Linden:	and I don't think that "subsetting" would be a good choice
[13:27]	Rex Cronon:	there can at least a subset of svg be implemented
[13:28]	Zero Linden:	But really- let's talk turkey here
[13:28]	Zero Linden:	SVG w/out CSS and javascript is just a fancy way to describe static images -
[13:28]	Rex Cronon:	i would like that to dale:)
[13:28]	Zero Linden:	and as such, you aren't likely to generate SVG from LSL
[13:28]	Zero Linden:	and so - just upload the rendered image
[13:29]	Zero Linden:	SVG w/CSS and Javascript is possibly an interaction system - and comprable to flash
[13:29]	Christian Colville:	you'd get a server somewhere to render a graphics file with text or whatever then load it in?
[13:29]	Dale Glass:	there's a big limit for uploading images: arbitrary text. I'd really like to be able to create columns, or use a fixed width font
[13:30]	Tree Kyomoon:	are there now plans to add a real array or objects to LSL yet?
[13:30]	Zero Linden:	But then we need to decided what kind of interaction system: SVG w/all, Flash, or HTML, or HTML + <pick some technologies> do we want on a prim face
[13:30]	Jarod Godel:	What's the big deal about SVG when you've got either SMIL or can just generate images?
[13:30]	Zero Linden:	if any!
[13:30]	Dale Glass:	wasn't there the switch to Mono?
[13:30]	Zero Linden:	I don't see much support for SMIL
[13:30]	Dale Glass:	that would have arrays, objects and all
[13:31]	Rex Cronon:	jarod, there are free programs that can be used to generate/edit svg files
[13:31]	Jarod Godel:	speaking for myself, I'd rather SL get a browser built into the client before they let me render one on a prim. Prim-based-browsers would require bix text.
[13:31]	Zero Linden:	and again - is what you want to do is having self contained Flash/SVG/SMIL/HTML/Web2.0 applications running on a prim face?
[13:31]	Zero Linden:	or do you want an interface language that lets some richer graphic prim face interact with the LSL and objects?
[13:31]	Christian Colville:	sounds a bit resource heavy to put it mildly..
[13:32]	Christian Colville:	I would say the latter
[13:32]	Tree Kyomoon:	prim face would do for me
[13:32]	Jarod Godel:	Rex, well, I'm strictly thinking "what's the big deal about it in SL" not a reall application of it.
[13:32]	Dale Glass:	In my case: I don't, I actually think it's ugly. But I welcome it as HTML on a prim seems happening and kinda would work for what I need to do
[13:32]	Zero Linden:	Yes - many of the uses people want for this stuff sounds a lot better to allow the LSL call to open a floating 2D windowed browser with a link than anything else
[13:32]	Zero Linden:	Again - the need to understand what you need to do is important - please add to the wiki!
[13:33]	Jarod Godel:	right. shop in world, purchase in browser.
[13:33]	Christian Colville:	so the browser would be a UI window not a prim face..
[13:33]	Dale Glass:	My own ideal addition: Creating a SL UI, as in, something like the avatar list, or a preferences dialog, and letting the user interact with it
[13:33]	Zero Linden:	http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User:Zero_Linden/Office_Hours/HTML_on_a_Prim_Use_Cases
[13:33]	Tree Kyomoon:	ui window wouldnt be as "immersive"
[13:33]	Dale Glass:	I'm already doing that by changing the viewer, but that isn't easy to distribute :-)
[13:33]	Zero Linden:	Right - so you wouldn't actually be happy with project #1
[13:33]	Christian Colville:	A use I have thought of is having an in-world updating display of land sale stats
[13:33]	Tree Kyomoon:	but a good alternative
[13:33]	Zero Linden:	since that just opens a web browser on a prim face -
[13:34]	Zero Linden:	you need the user to be able to interact with the rendered HTML and have the inputs go back to the LSL
[13:34]	Jarod Godel:	Christian, that's what I would like. Say you go up to a prim that says "BoingBoing" on it. If you click on that, it launches BoingBoing in your SL window.
[13:34]	Zero Linden:	oh - my bad, Dale - you DID add to that web page
[13:34]	Zero Linden:	THANKS!
[13:35]	Zero Linden:	okay - clearly this is still a hot topic -
[13:35]	Christian Colville:	hmm how much different is that to the facility to open a link an a web browser whic already exists
[13:35]	Dale Glass:	Zero, well, one thing I currently would like is an UI that can create things like lists, with columns, and have all that redraw well and be responsive
[13:35]	Dale Glass:	I've managed to do something in LSL, but it's slow as heck and has update problems
[13:35]	Zero Linden:	Okay - let's move on a bit..... I'll see if I can get the engineers working on #1 and/or #2 in for an office hour in the next week or two
[13:35]	Jarod Godel:	Christian, it's mostly for people who play in fullscreen mode and don't want to flip out to browse. It lets them "live" totally in the SL client.
[13:35]	Dale Glass:	I would use HTML to make the interface less painful, but it's not 100% ideal, no
[13:35]	Rex Cronon:	dale u want the scripts to get/set values in the UI?
[13:36]	Dale Glass:	Ideally I'd like to be able to create an UI from LSL
[13:36]	Christian Colville:	but Jarod there is a big need I think for dynamic in world text displays
[13:36]	Tree Kyomoon:	ok so next...exporter for blender anyone?
[13:36]	Jarod Godel:	Zero, is Benjamin Linden the one dealing with UI changes?
[13:36]	Rex Cronon:	for sculpties tree?
[13:36]	Dale Glass:	here's an old screenshot of my viewer patch: http://daleglass.net/images/screenshots/avlist6_001.jpg
[13:37]	Dale Glass:	that's what I would like to do from LSL
[13:37]	Tree Kyomoon:	yes
[13:37]	Tree Kyomoon:	a good one , I can do it now, but theres not enough verticies
[13:37]	Dale Glass:	that version is old btw, and the current version is prettier
[13:37]	Zero Linden:	Benjamin is one of them -
[13:37]	Zero Linden:	most engineers do to some extent
[13:37]	Zero Linden:	but he is a good collection point
[13:37]	Zero Linden:	don't know if he holds office hours
[13:38]	Christian Colville:	he does
[13:38]	Christian Colville:	earlier today I was at one
[13:38]	Jarod Godel:	Christian, agreed, but that's where web-based textures come in. You can generate images on the fly with PHP, Perl, etc. and use them as textures. You could render an entire web page that way if you wanted. I just disagree that we need things like <frame> and <a href=""> tags enabled on prim faces.
[13:38]	Jarod Godel:	Generate the page or display as an image, but build your interface (links, etc.) in-world.
[13:38]	Dale Glass:	generating images is bandwidth intensive though
[13:39]	Jarod Godel:	Zero, I think he does. I think.
[13:39]	Dale Glass:	I have an avatar scanner, it must refresh constantly. Bandwidth usage would be insane
[13:39]	Jarod Godel:	Then used SMIL.
[13:40]	Christian Colville:	its a hack though Jarod to use a web server to generate a texture with text in then ship it over the net to SL
[13:40]	Rex Cronon:	it would be too slow dale
[13:40]	Zero Linden:	Some other upcoming things for Summer:
[13:41]	Zero Linden:	Message Liberation will finally ship phase two
[13:41]	Jarod Godel:	yay
[13:41]	Dale Glass:	message liberation?
[13:41]	Zero Linden:	we'll be forever liberated from having to download a new client just cause we changed a message
[13:41]	Dale Glass:	ooh, neat
[13:41]	Rex Cronon:	no more udp dale
[13:41]	Jarod Godel:	One step closer to an SL-API.
[13:41]	Christian Colville:	cool
[13:41]	Tree Kyomoon:	sl api yes!
[13:42]	Zero Linden:	well- we will stull use UDP - just that we can push new stuff over TCP and encoded in LLSD
[13:42]	Christian Colville:	that will save much grief
[13:42]	Zero Linden:	whcih enables all the new stuff to be extensible - and more mportantly
[13:42]	Zero Linden:	not invalidate the UDP system - which is what adding a message used to do
[13:42]	Tree Kyomoon:	any luck isolating the avatars from the sims?
[13:43]	Zero Linden:	Mind you - it will still be the case that some change or bug could cause us to force a viewer update - but we will have much more flexibility than we did before
[13:43]	Zero Linden:	Tree - that is the coming year's work for me
[13:43]	Zero Linden:	and luck won't be enough! it is going to take lots of sweat
[13:44]	Christian Colville:	what does that involve Zero?
[13:44]	Zero Linden:	The other thing my studio is now working on is "Heterogenous Grid" - which allows different versions of the server software to co-exist on the same grid
[13:44]	Jarod Godel:	woohoo
[13:44]	Jarod Godel cheers
[13:44]	Zero Linden:	this will allow both late-stage beta testing on regions that are part of the real grid - and phased roll out of new versions -
[13:44]	Squirrel Wood:	I guess that means significantly reduced downtimes?
[13:45]	Zero Linden:	Christian - I'll hold another office hours on that in the future - but here's the diagram
[13:45]	Tree Kyomoon:	wow that is impressive
[13:45]	Zero Linden:	Squirrel - we'll see - again it is about gaining flexibility, not absolutes for now
[13:45]	Zero Linden:	for example, some database changes will still require down time -
[13:46]	Zero Linden:	but right now we can do rolling updates on simulators only for certain kind of changes.
[13:46]	Zero Linden:	Het-Grid will enable a much broader class of changes to be done incrementally
[13:46]	Zero Linden:	Eventually, we'll be able to allow estate owners control on over when to upgrade their regions, and to what version
[13:47]	Christian Colville:	what's going on in terms of database scalability? I'd be fascinated to learn more about the database architecture as I'm a db designer myself
[13:47]	Squirrel Wood:	I see that causing some confusion... "Why does my X work in sim A but not in sim B?"
[13:48]	Zero Linden:	Yes - this is true - but long term, if you think about it, we will have to cope with that issue at some point
[13:48]	Zero Linden:	we plan to have some form of blue-box dialog when you enter a region that is not the version you were on before
[13:48]	Christian Colville:	especially if you're going to licence the server software outside LL sometime
[13:49]	Zero Linden:	even now - without a full downtime - it is a myth to say that all regions are the same version
[13:49]	Squirrel Wood:	hmm... what about a way for scripts to detect which version of the server they are running on or querying if certain functionality is available or not?
[13:49]	Zero Linden:	we try - but at 2,200 machines, and constant additions (150 to 450 regions added a week)
[13:49]	Zero Linden:	things sometimes end up with the wrong version - or during rolling updates, the grid is running two versions at once
[13:49]	Christian Colville:	ouch
[13:50]	Zero Linden:	Squirrel - good point - I'll add an LSL call to the task list
[13:50]	Dale Glass:	Aha, I just remembered. Since there's llHTTPRequest now, why not make it possible for XML RPC to go both ways?
[13:50]	Squirrel Wood:	That way people can script workarounds where needed
[13:52]	Zero Linden:	okay - added those LSL notes to the internal wiki design page
[13:53]	Zero Linden:	XML-RPC is certainly going to be deprecated one day --- but not until we get HTTP into an object
[13:53]	Jarod Godel:	Object?
[13:53]	Zero Linden:	er, prim
[13:53]	Zero Linden:	er, link set
[13:53]	Tree Kyomoon:	<perks up ears
[13:53]	Zero Linden:	er, who knows!?!?!?
[13:53]	Dale Glass:	hmm, but that makes outside -> SL communication inconvenient
[13:53]	Jarod Godel:	Hopefully someone. ;)
[13:53]	Zero Linden:	what does? no it should make it easier
[13:54]	Zero Linden:	XML-RPC is very very awkward for many reasons
[13:54]	Tree Kyomoon:	objects and arrays are part of this nutricious SL breakfast
[13:54]	Dale Glass:	I mean, llHTTPRequest is nice, but polling isn't a very elegant solution
[13:54]	Zero Linden:	but if your prim just has an externally accessible URL
[13:54]	Dale Glass:	ahh
[13:54]	Jarod Godel perks up
[13:54]	Zero Linden:	and POSTing to it invokes a http_request() event,
[13:54]	Zero Linden:	it should be MUCH easier to interact
[13:54]	Dale Glass:	ok, I like that :-D
[13:54]	Wyn Galbraith found the prim well.
[13:54]	Jarod Godel:	dude, that would be slick
[13:55]	Zero Linden:	The key is making the URL be something that we can manage easily
[13:55]	Jarod Godel:	llHTTPREquest + http_request() + llListen = LEGO web services.
[13:55]	Zero Linden:	One of the problems with XML-RPC is that the channel is a single, global, identifier
[13:55]	Zero Linden:	global maps of identifiers -> where is it are no good
[13:56]	Jarod Godel:	Zero, would it matter if the domain was long-UUID.simname.sl.com if we could use dyndns.org to map shorter domains to awkward prim ns names?
[13:56]	Dale Glass:	btw, how about opening a socket and just writing data there?
[13:57]	Tree Kyomoon:	Tree Kyomoon still thinks that SL is one of the greatest technological acheivements of human kind
[13:57]	Jarod Godel:	If I grok what you're saying, that sounds like something that's not SL's problem.
[13:57]	Zero Linden:	jarod - yes, that would be something like the plan - let you folks do whatever form of persistent long term name management you need
[13:57]	Wyn Galbraith agrees with Tree.
[13:57]	Jarod Godel:	SL's nice, but it's no Internet Porn industry...
[13:58]	Zha Ewry mutters leasing
[13:58]	Squirrel Wood:	damnit
[13:58]	Zero Linden:	but, it might be more ugly - <uuid>.simXYZ.agni.lindenlab.com:12345
[13:58]	Zero Linden:	and so , you might have to update your "pointer" more often....
[13:58]	Jarod Godel:	so ports would figure in, not just prim names?
[13:59]	Zero Linden:	Opening a socket isn't really going to happen - LSL isn't powerful enough to handle that
[13:59]	Zero Linden:	not to mention that socket programming is really very tricky to get totally right
[13:59]	Jarod Godel:	(I am assuming you'd use something like SNAT or DNAT (i can never remember which direction each is) to handle the names.)
[13:59]	California Chronic w/ leaves: the air is thick with marijuana smoke
[14:00]	Tree Kyomoon:	web connections are fast enough these days to make any asynchronous connection look like a socket for most applications
[14:00]	Tree Kyomoon:	I think
[14:00]	Dale Glass:	hmm, does HTTP LL-side support pipelining?
[14:00]	Zero Linden:	I'm not familiar with either of those, but puting dynamic stuff into DNS isn't a good idea
[14:00]	Zero Linden:	so I don't think we'll od that
[14:00]	Jarod Godel:	Zero, it's IPTables more than actual DNS'ing.
[14:00]	Zero Linden:	Dale - at the level we expose it to the LSL, you wouldn't be able to tell
[14:00]	Zha Ewry:	Why not real DNSing
[14:00]	Zha Ewry:	?
[14:00]	Zero Linden:	internally, not at present
[14:01]	Zero Linden:	DNS wasn't built to support, say, 100k entries as a single delegation layer
[14:01]	Zero Linden:	while the root servers handle it
[14:01]	Tree Kyomoon:	before I forget, I did want to mention volumetric clouds and status on the windlight
[14:01]	Zero Linden:	they are very specialized peices of software
[14:01]	Zero Linden:	and the problems with them are legion
[14:01]	Tree Kyomoon:	as well as physics
[14:02]	Zero Linden:	I don't think I want to dedicate that kind of engineerr time to that kind of problem
[14:02]	Zha Ewry nods
[14:02]	Zero Linden:	If we are going to let it be users that put nice pretty names on persistent endpoints for in world objects - we might as well go with what is the easiest to impleemnt and scalable
[14:02]	Jarod Godel:	But if you route *.simxyz.agni.secondlife.com to simxyz, then you can let the sim software handle the rest, like Apache handles "virtual hosts"
[14:03]	Zero Linden:	well all - it is 2pm and I've got to run
[14:03]	Simon Pulford:	hello
[14:03]	Wyn Galbraith:	Welcome back and thanks Zero.
[14:03]	Jarod Godel:	yes, welcome back, Zero.
[14:03]	Tree Kyomoon:	thanks zero!
[14:03]	Zero Linden:	I'll be back on schedule from now on
[14:03]	Christian Colville:	yeah thanks Zero, everyone fascinating stuff
[14:03]	Zero Linden:	here this Thursday at 7:30am
[14:03]	Zero Linden:	and next week
[14:03]	Dale Glass:	thanks :-)
[14:04]	Zero Linden:	I'll try to pull together actual topics for the coming weeks
[14:04]	Zero Linden:	see my wiki home page for details
[14:04]	Zero Linden:	thanks all for coming
[14:04]	Zero Linden:	as always
[14:04]	Rex Cronon:	can the we suggest toppics?
[14:04]	Zero Linden:	the transcript will appear in the wiki soon
[14:04]	Zero Linden:	yes - you can Rex
[14:04]	Zero Linden:	IM me
[14:04]	Zha Ewry:	Thanks Zero
[14:04]	Zha Ewry:	As always
[14:04]	Zero Linden:	Later all!
[14:04]	Rex Cronon:	good to have u back zero
[14:04]	Rex Cronon:	bye