User:Zero Linden/Office Hours/2007 May 03

Transcript of Zero Linden's office hours:

[7:31]	Ryozu Kojima:	MoveToTarget? Yeah
[7:31]	Ryozu Kojima shrugs.
[7:31]	Dr Scofield:	hi zha
[7:32]	Zha Ewry:	Hey Dr.
[7:32]	Ryozu Kojima:	MoveToTarget will Dampen your position to your current position at any distance above 64 meters
[7:32]	Zero Linden:	Good morning all
[7:32]	Marcello Aldwych:	let me start working, and i'll keep you posted how well I am doing
[7:32]	Ryozu Kojima:	You can either applyimpulse to overcome it
[7:32]	Dr Scofield:	hi zero
[7:32]	Ryozu Kojima:	Or activate it when within distance
[7:32]	Rex Cronon:	good morning
[7:32]	Zha Ewry:	Morning Zero
[7:32]	Marcello Aldwych:	is there a meeting here now ?
[7:32]	Ryozu Kojima:	Alright, good luck Marceollo, Office hours begin =)
[7:32]	Marcello Aldwych:	hello all
[7:33]	Marcello Aldwych:	thanks and see you later Ryozu
[7:33]	Marcello Aldwych:	bye for now
[7:33]	Ryozu Kojima waves.
[7:34]	Wyn Galbraith sits down quickly soshe stays put. "Good morning."
[7:34]	Tree Kyomoon:	morning zero
[7:34]	Zha Ewry:	Rough Mornign Wyn?
[7:35]	Zero Linden:	Welcome to office hours - transcript to be put in wiki - talk about tech - yadda yadda yadda....
[7:35]	Zero Linden:	there that's over with
[7:35]	Ryozu Kojima:	Heh
[7:35]	Tree Kyomoon:	did you guys cover scupted prims last time?
[7:35]	Zero Linden:	So - group messinging and friends feel better?
[7:35]	Ryozu Kojima:	A bit
[7:35]	Zero Linden:	Not in any technical sense, Tree
[7:35]	Tree Kyomoon:	i think its incredibly cool, great concept
[7:35]	Wyn Galbraith can't wait for those, "The artist in me is so excited to get my hands on those."
[7:36]	Ryozu Kojima:	No kidding, can't believe anyone really thinks they're bad
[7:36]	Tree Kyomoon:	would be nice to have sculpting tools in world
[7:36]	Wyn Galbraith:	Who would think they're bad?
[7:36]	Ryozu Kojima:	I imagine those will come at some point
[7:36]	Wyn Galbraith:	I've been wishing for them since I came here.
[7:36]	Ryozu Kojima:	People think they're more polygons, and will run slower on the client
[7:36]	Zero Linden:	Do people? Really? I've noticed over my time in SL that people are very conservative: they fear any change to the system
[7:36]	Ryozu Kojima:	Others think they'll ruin the economy
[7:36]	Rex Cronon:	those that don't have high-end graphics cards might not like them
[7:37]	Zha Ewry:	A bit, Zero, tho. We're still seenig some people who don't update when the log off
[7:37]	Wyn Galbraith:	I fear no change.
[7:37]	Zero Linden:	More polygons? Than twisted tortured cut hollow tubes?!?!?!?!
[7:37]	Tree Kyomoon:	yes, particularly evidenced in that "open letter of paranoia"
[7:37]	Ryozu Kojima:	LOL, no kidding Zero!
[7:37]	Wyn Galbraith:	Life is change, either you adapt or you die.
[7:37]	Jarod Godel:	Zero, that's whatcha get when your uer base is made of users.
[7:37]	Ryozu Kojima:	Now, the Open letter does have some valid concerns, at least it was worded nicely =P
[7:37]	Jarod Godel:	*user
[7:37]	Wyn Galbraith:	Good one Tree.
[7:38]	Ryozu Kojima:	Others are convinced that sculpted prims will only be for the elite 3D artists
[7:38]	Zero Linden:	Hey, with sculpted prims - at least it can all be done in the vertex shader - on the video card
[7:38]	Wyn Galbraith:	At Robin's meeting there seemed to be more concern over the badly drawn sun.
[7:38]	Ryozu Kojima laughs.
[7:38]	Jarod Godel:	Wyn, well, the sun is the center of our universe.
[7:38]	Wyn Galbraith will have to be elite then.
[7:38]	Tree Kyomoon:	yes, so what about remotely hosting the images, on our own webservers?
[7:39]	Zero Linden:	uhm - right 'cause LL is going to require "elite artist" certiication before we enable the sculpted prim editor.....
[7:39]	Dr Scofield is surprised, thought the earth was...
[7:39]	Ryozu Kojima:	They think Sculpted Prims won't have an in game editor
[7:39]	Ryozu Kojima:	For a while
[7:39]	Wyn Galbraith:	The sun is ... well, something to give confort to those who don't like change and to make the VR sky interesting.
[7:39]	Ryozu Kojima:	That's the general fear I've been hearing
[7:39]	Rex Cronon:	i hope u kidding zero
[7:39]	Jarod Godel:	SSL = Sculpted Sculpture Licensing.
[7:39]	Ryozu Kojima:	Thus you'll "have to buy Maya for $6bazillion dollarz"
[7:39]	Zero Linden:	sorry - hard to express sarcastic voice in chat
[7:39]	Wyn Galbraith:	*comfort
[7:39]	Ryozu Kojima:	Aye
[7:39]	Ryozu Kojima:	;)
[7:40]	Zero Linden:	Well - there won't be a in-viewer editor from us - just the - "apply this texture as the shape map"
[7:40]	Tree Kyomoon:	and spend 8 years working through the incomprehensible interface of Maya
[7:40]	Zero Linden:	as shown in the video
[7:40]	Ryozu Kojima:	Right, which is fine, as long as there is a free way to make those textures logically
[7:40]	Wyn Galbraith tends to take things literally sometime ;)
[7:40]	Ryozu Kojima:	Which I imagine there WILL be
[7:40]	Zero Linden:	But I believe that a) there are, or can easily be, plug ins for other 3D software
[7:40]	Zero Linden:	and b) the viewer is open source - if you think you can make a good sculpty prim editor - do it!
[7:41]	Ryozu Kojima giggles.
[7:41]	Wyn Galbraith:	My son worked for Sega and knows Maya.
[7:41]	Rex Cronon:	and sell it?
[7:41]	Tree Kyomoon:	how is maya these days?
[7:41]	Ryozu Kojima:	Heh!
[7:41]	Ryozu Kojima:	Well Rex, someone's selling a Clothing maker on SLX
[7:41]	Ryozu Kojima:	So why not
[7:42]	Wyn Galbraith:	They canned him a couple of years ago, he did motion capture and they decided they were paying him and his boss too much. :)
[7:42]	Jarod Godel:	AUGH
[7:42]	Ryozu Kojima:	Ouch
[7:42]	Jarod Godel:	witch!
[7:42]	Zero Linden:	My spouse just bought Maya and loaded up the several 100 Meg of tutorials....
[7:42]	Tree Kyomoon:	yes, I trid that once
[7:42]	Ryozu Kojima:	I want a ZBrush plugin
[7:42]	Ryozu Kojima:	ZBrush is amazing for making things like that
[7:42]	Tree Kyomoon:	I got a copy of Maya from a rep in sandiego
[7:42]	Wyn Galbraith:	Still I bet if it's a mp that it won't be that hard to figure out.
[7:43]	Zero Linden:	The concept of the texture mapping is easy - so I imagine folks will easily build plugins for those 3D apps that don't support it yet
[7:43]	Wyn Galbraith:	*mp =map
[7:43]	Ryozu Kojima:	Indeed
[7:43]	Tree Kyomoon:	yes
[7:43]	Zero Linden:	the harder part, the reason that maya is so expensive, is that 3D editing interfaces are difficult to make functional
[7:43]	Zero Linden:	well, to make highly functional
[7:43]	Tree Kyomoon:	so what about hosting textures and shapes on remote web servers?
[7:43]	Tree Kyomoon:	:)
[7:43]	Wyn Galbraith:	Oh, I think I still have access to educational software.
[7:44]	Ryozu Kojima:	I don't see that happening, personally
[7:44]	Rex Cronon:	wouldn't be better, if a importer/exporter to .obj files was available?
[7:44]	Ryozu Kojima:	Hey Zero... Here's a fun question for you
[7:44]	Ryozu Kojima:	Video streaming and scultped prims
[7:44]	Zero Linden:	When we have remote hosted textures- the sculpted shapes will come for free... they are just textures themselves
[7:44]	Zero Linden:	The dev path is this:
[7:44]	Zero Linden:	1) textures over HTTP
[7:44]	Tree Kyomoon:	yay remote hosted textures!
[7:44]	Zero Linden:	2) remote hosted textures
[7:45]	Zero Linden:	#1 is coded and running in house
[7:45]	Zero Linden:	it is twice as fast as the current texture download -- in our limited testing
[7:45]	Tree Kyomoon:	yay twice as fast!
[7:45]	Zero Linden:	we haven't seen what it does under more stressful conditions - like over slow internet connections
[7:45]	Dr Scofield:	any ideas on how you are going to charge for remote hosted textures?
[7:45]	Zero Linden:	or under high-packet loss situations
[7:45]	Tree Kyomoon:	yay not going to charge !
[7:45]	Zero Linden:	Dr. - we aren't going to charge for remote hosted textures
[7:45]	Dr Scofield:	nice!
[7:46]	Ryozu Kojima:	The charge for uploading textures is more to discourage mass upload of textures and bog down the asset server
[7:46]	Wyn Galbraith:	Did Autodesk buy Maya?
[7:46]	Ryozu Kojima:	I believe
[7:46]	Dr Scofield:	so, i could have a photo collection tied to prim surfaces
[7:46]	Wyn Galbraith:	Wow.
[7:46]	Dr Scofield:	?
[7:46]	Rex Cronon:	so the slviewer gets them directly from the host without going through the LL servers?
[7:47]	Ryozu Kojima:	As long as it's not stored on the asset server, it may not matter?
[7:47]	Tree Kyomoon:	yes, and could you get texutres from perl scripts, so you could do image editing in world
[7:47]	Zero Linden:	upload charges are about 1/4 of the sinks in the money supply
[7:47]	Zero Linden:	but that includes all types
[7:47]	Wyn Galbraith:	389.98 from journeyed.com for Maya
[7:47]	Ryozu Kojima:	True, but people want free, Wyn
[7:48]	Ryozu Kojima:	Heh
[7:48]	Wyn Galbraith:	Well good software isn't free.
[7:48]	Tree Kyomoon:	hey thats one months teir fee on an island almost
[7:48]	Wyn Galbraith:	Except for Linux ;)
[7:48]	Ryozu Kojima:	True
[7:48]	Dr Scofield:	exactly :-)
[7:48]	Ryozu Kojima:	Except SL? ;)
[7:48]	Zero Linden:	Rex - yes - the viewer will be going directly to the server
[7:48]	Wyn Galbraith:	And to be legal one has to pay. That's the software realm.
[7:49]	Zero Linden:	we've decided against the version where the viewer gets it from the simhost which in turn gets it from the external server
[7:49]	Zero Linden:	although - alas, that is the version that is coded right now (it is was a little easier...)
[7:50]	Ryozu Kojima:	Too much bandwidth there? I imagine heavier loads would kill the server. The only issue I'd have about getting it directly from the server is, that would make it a lot easier to steal those textures
[7:50]	Rex Cronon:	but the host can get the ip addressof who requests the image, no more annonymous users?
[7:50]	Ryozu Kojima:	Not that it's terribly hard anyways I suppose
[7:50]	Ryozu Kojima:	That too
[7:50]	Tree Kyomoon:	screen captcha
[7:50]	Zero Linden:	whoa.... hold on
[7:51]	Zero Linden:	Bandwidth? Well, we either get a texture from the asset server for a face, or we get it from an external server - on average about the same
[7:51]	Zero Linden:	and we still expect the vast bulk of textures to be in the asset system --
[7:51]	Zero Linden:	for L$10 - it is cheep hosting!
[7:51]	Ryozu Kojima:	I'd expect differently, to be honest, free webhosting is abundant
[7:51]	Tree Kyomoon:	right but they all get squeezed through your IP, with externals they can be independent of linden right?
[7:51]	Zero Linden:	free webhosting is ... well ... what you pay for
[7:52]	Jarod Godel:	Not many free hosts allow external image usage. Flickr, PhotoBucket...
[7:52]	Ryozu Kojima:	Well, two different issues Tree, Bandwith usage by LL's servers and Privacy of IPs
[7:52]	Zero Linden:	When the texture is external, and our servers are fetching it, it means our servers have to handle the vagueries of all those external servers
[7:52]	Zero Linden:	rather than just the asset system
[7:52]	Tree Kyomoon:	so it cant just go from external IP to viewer??
[7:52]	Ryozu Kojima:	One with a dedicated host can use an LSL script to log times of visitors and HTTP logs of downloads of a texture and roughtly associate an IP with a username
[7:52]	Zero Linden:	and there is almost no advantage to us fetching the texture for you
[7:52]	Tree Kyomoon:	why create the bottleneck?
[7:53]	Rex Cronon:	right ryozu
[7:53]	Zero Linden:	Exactly Tree, that is what we've decided to do
[7:53]	Zero Linden:	there are two downsides to it:
[7:53]	Ryozu Kojima:	To protect the IP of the users
[7:54]	Zero Linden:	1) Both the viewer (and the user) thus know the URL of the source, and hence the machine -- and the external server knows the IP of the viewer (though not which user -- but that can be correlated against inworld objects)
[7:54]	Zero Linden:	So there is a loss of anonymous access -- but no less than with a web browser
[7:54]	Dr Scofield:	royozu: true...anonymizer?
[7:54]	Jarod Godel clap
[7:54]	Zero Linden:	(well, may be a little less... but not much)
[7:54]	Tree Kyomoon:	exactly...anonymous schmonymous
[7:55]	Ryozu Kojima:	Ah, good idea, maybe allow proxy for remote hosted textures
[7:55]	Ryozu Kojima:	That is, a proxy just for that
[7:55]	Zero Linden:	2) It would be easier for the external server to intentionally serve different images to different people - which would make the world look different to different folks
[7:55]	Zero Linden:	of course - that will be an advantage to some
[7:55]	Tree Kyomoon:	RIAA would like that
[7:55]	Ryozu Kojima:	Kind of ruins consistency in my opinion
[7:56]	Zero Linden:	Exactly - but really, as a external image provider - you'd have to work hard at it....
[7:56]	Zha Ewry dislikes things which break the single POV
[7:56]	Zero Linden:	So do i
[7:56]	Tree Kyomoon:	it totally ruines the idea of a virtual world
[7:56]	Ryozu Kojima:	Yeah
[7:56]	Zero Linden:	But - it would still be possible even if we proxied the requests (and cached them), only it would be harder
[7:56]	Ryozu Kojima:	I can't say "See that blue dot there?" if they aren't even getting the same data as I am
[7:56]	Rex Cronon:	maybe the obejects that do it, should give a warning to users, that each might be seeing different things
[7:57]	Dr Scofield:	no, it ruins the idea of a virtual world as a replica of the RL
[7:57]	Zero Linden:	Well - I think if you do it intentionally as part of an inworld experience - and frame the experience correctly, it could be used to great benefit
[7:57]	Ryozu Kojima:	What it ruins is: Shared experiences
[7:57]	Dr Scofield:	some people do so already in RL
[7:57]	Jarod Godel:	Zha, this won't break the single POV. It might provide the ability to do it, but someone would have to code an image loader to specifically do that.
[7:57]	Tree Kyomoon:	yes, look at the blue screen ads in soccer fields
[7:58]	Ryozu Kojima:	which is a fundamental of Multi user enviroments
[7:58]	Zero Linden:	The other advantage of having the viewer know the originating server is DMCA: That way if you find your work on a prim
[7:58]	Zero Linden:	and that prim texture is hosted externally, then LL doesn't need to be in the middle of the DMCA issue: You can go directly to the source, just like any other website you find
[7:58]	Jarod Godel clap
[7:58]	Tree Kyomoon:	excellent point zero
[7:58]	Dr Scofield thinks it would even allow for increased privacy in-world: only show certain content to members of the same group
[7:59]	Zero Linden:	If we proxied the image, then things get weird - "take down" - but we don't host it.....
[7:59]	Tree Kyomoon:	me good point
[7:59]	Ryozu Kojima:	Heh
[7:59]	Zero Linden:	ha ha
[7:59]	Zero Linden:	you should script that so you can have it point at whomever you want
[8:00]	Ryozu Kojima:	Welcome back Khamon
[8:00]	Khamon Fate:	Thanks
[8:00]	Khamon Fate:	I'm only kinda here.
[8:00]	Tree Kyomoon:	yes, I had originally intended it to bolster my ego
[8:00]	Zero Linden notes that he needs a lantern in here
[8:00]	Ryozu Kojima:	Heh
[8:00]	Wyn Galbraith loves SL in the dark. "Still waiting for simualted Space."
[8:01]	Rex Cronon:	not if u press Ctrl+Shift+Y
[8:01]	Jarod Godel:	wrong lantern
[8:01]	Khamon Fate:	I leave my night light turned all the way up. I wish we could just override the cycle in our preferences.
[8:01]	Ryozu Kojima:	Never been orbited Wyn?
[8:01]	Ryozu Kojima chuckles.
[8:01]	Wyn Galbraith:	I've been threatened ;)
[8:01]	Tree Kyomoon gave you arrowPointingAtME.
[8:01]	Zero Linden:	World > Force Sun...
[8:01]	Khamon Fate:	Oh, question, Zero, is LL implementing some kind of global or simwide weather system, additional to wind, that includes random rain et al?
[8:01]	Wyn Galbraith:	I don't want to orbit I want to be in.
[8:02]	Khamon Fate:	yeah I force sunrise a few times a day.
[8:02]	Ryozu Kojima:	I bet they will at some point Khamon
[8:02]	Wyn Galbraith:	Oh weather. Good idea.
[8:02]	Ryozu Kojima:	It was one of Phil's dreams, if I recall
[8:02]	Khamon Fate:	I just wish we could set it permanently like you can on an estate.
[8:02]	Zero Linden:	Khamon - no, I don't think weather is currently on the plat
[8:02]	Zero Linden:	palte
[8:02]	Khamon Fate:	It's a good idea if it's OPTIONAL to the viewer.
[8:02]	Zero Linden:	plate (dang!)
[8:02]	Ryozu Kojima:	Really? Heh
[8:02]	Tree Kyomoon:	would be cool when you fly up high if the world was spherical rather than a bunch of region borders
[8:03]	Wyn Galbraith:	I think it would be too costly.
[8:03]	Khamon Fate:	Thanks, people keep asking me that because I'm a sprite and should know all that nature related stuff.
[8:03]	Ryozu Kojima:	There used to be a more dynamic cloud and weather system a long long time ago, but got taken out? I may be wrong on that.
[8:03]	Zero Linden:	Despite perhaps what the "Open Letter" people may think - the very items they are concerned about are in general our top priorities
[8:03]	Khamon Fate:	You're correct; there were water currents too but they cost WAAY too much
[8:04]	Ryozu Kojima:	I have an awful memory
[8:04]	Ryozu Kojima:	Heh
[8:04]	Wyn Galbraith:	Isn't there wind under the water?
[8:04]	Tree Kyomoon:	of course, the open letter was ridiculous and embarassing IMHO
[8:04]	Zero Linden:	while things like Sculpted prims may look like we are ignoring stability or scaling and doing features - know that that feature was the work of one engineer
[8:04]	Ryozu Kojima:	For someone in the know Tree, perhaps, but not everyone is "In the know"
[8:04]	Zero Linden:	kind of on the side
[8:04]	Khamon Fate:	Prior Khamon has posted with great alacrity the truth of LLSD and distributed regions to those SC people. But they haven't listended.
[8:04]	Rex Cronon:	there are still people signing it
[8:04]	Ryozu Kojima:	Oh really? Which one, so we can go thank him, hehe
[8:05]	Zero Linden:	And - "all work and no play makes for dull programmers"
[8:05]	Wyn Galbraith:	Give that guy a raise.
[8:05]	Tree Kyomoon:	I dont have access to any information that anyone else in SL cant get easily
[8:05]	Zero Linden:	but really, we are mostly all coding away at the big issues
[8:05]	Ryozu Kojima:	Depends on your definition of easily Tree
[8:05]	Ryozu Kojima:	You're above average from what I know of you
[8:06]	Ryozu Kojima:	Everyone here seems to be
[8:06]	Tree Kyomoon:	map-->search-->"linden"
[8:06]	Ryozu Kojima:	You all have a better grasp at what is going on
[8:06]	Jarod Godel:	Zero, once the new systems go Live, what's next on your plate?
[8:06]	Zero Linden:	I admit - I was upset when I heard we were spending cycles on new primtive types too -- but then Sculpted Prims is so elegantly simple, and such a big win - I now realize it was worth the effort
[8:06]	Zero Linden:	"the new systems"? Like the stuff I was talking about last time?
[8:06]	Tree Kyomoon:	amen to sculpted prims!
[8:06]	Zha Ewry thinks scultped prims makes sense as a nice incremental step to more meshes
[8:06]	Khamon Fate:	What seems different about your team Zero is that y'all work on something until it's done, fun or not.
[8:06]	Wyn Galbraith thinks it's brilliant.
[8:07]	Jarod Godel:	Yes. That and web textures.
[8:07]	Zero Linden:	Well - that will be shipping in pieces for probably the next year
[8:07]	Zero Linden:	So - after that? who knows?
[8:07]	Jarod Godel:	Ah-aha. I keep forgetting it's an incremental thing.
[8:07]	Tree Kyomoon:	open sourcing the server
[8:07]	Wyn Galbraith:	Sky's the limit... or not ;)
[8:07]	Ryozu Kojima:	What I'd like to know about Sculpted Prims is at what point do they take shape in the graphic system... I'd LOVE to be able to point a video stream at a sculpted prim and have it morph smoothly.
[8:08]	Zero Linden:	We could do it faster if we didn't have to do it incrementally
[8:08]	Wyn Galbraith:	Incremental is good, gives a chance to ease the bugs out ;)
[8:08]	Zero Linden:	BUT - that would risk two things: 1) possible serious divergence from the current code base
[8:08]	Ryozu Kojima:	My question about that subject is, when the server and all this stuff gets released, where does LL see itself in the big picture, just service provider?
[8:08]	Khamon Fate:	Sculpted prims are "lopsided" spheres aren't they?
[8:08]	Zero Linden:	and 2) missing the true challenges and needs - our crystal balls are not perfectly sharp
[8:09]	Zero Linden:	Ah -
[8:09]	Wyn Galbraith suggest, "Next Simulated Space." :)
[8:09]	Khamon Fate:	LL can be several things, they can continue to host SL, they can license grid software, they can provide connecting architecture,
[8:09]	Tree Kyomoon:	mabey you guys could put a freeze on the current SL build, assign some maintainance dudes to it, and start building a new indpendant one
[8:09]	Ryozu Kojima:	Less a tech thing and more a policy thing I know
[8:09]	Rex Cronon:	where can i get more info about the order that pixel values are mapped into what vertices on a sphere?
[8:09]	Zero Linden:	In the longer run, there will always be the mainland, and the islands we host - and the community we support
[8:10]	Zero Linden:	Tree - and leave you all behind?!?!? No way!!!!!
[8:10]	Zero Linden:	Rex - there is a whole FAQ in the external wiki
[8:10]	Rex Cronon:	that has limited info:(
[8:10]	Tree Kyomoon:	you could set up an importer so we could bring our stuff over when the new system is all ready to go
[8:10]	Zero Linden:	http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Sculpted_Prims
[8:11]	Rex Cronon:	i know, been there
[8:11]	Tree Kyomoon:	and those who dont like change could stay here
[8:11]	Khamon Fate:	Oh I'm sorry Ryozu, I thought you meant LL the company, not just SL the grid.
[8:11]	Ryozu Kojima:	I'm pretty sure Phil's ultimate goal is Web3D, ubiquitous use of SL's base for the world wide web in 3D
[8:11]	Ryozu Kojima:	I did, in part
[8:11]	Zero Linden:	see the talk pages for ongoing more detailed description
[8:12]	Tree Kyomoon:	I wonder if phil will ever hold office hours
[8:12]	Tree Kyomoon:	that would be cool
[8:12]	Ryozu Kojima:	Heh
[8:12]	Wyn Galbraith feels like a kitten who's got something shiney dangled in front of her.
[8:12]	Zero Linden:	I think a crucial part of what SL is, is a continuous experience
[8:12]	Tree Kyomoon:	I got an email from him once
[8:12]	Zha Ewry:	Zero.. can I ask one quick. totally random question?
[8:12]	Zero Linden:	This is why we don't just license the technology as it sits out now so corporatations can create private little grids
[8:12]	Ryozu Kojima:	I sat around and talked to Phil on Christmas, with flying green santa hatted pickles in the air.
[8:12]	Ryozu Kojima giggles.
[8:13]	Zero Linden:	We believe that there is MUCH more power to this when everyone is in the same space - even if their islands are private
[8:13]	Zha Ewry:	Is there a performance reason to limit people to 25 groups? (Because I constantly have to juggle mine)
[8:13]	Zero Linden:	Zha - yes
[8:13]	Zero Linden:	group information is currently a PITA to get to the viewer
[8:13]	Wyn Galbraith:	Someone asked me that the other day.
[8:13]	Jarod Godel:	Zero, it's nice to hear a Linden acknowledge that both private and public can exist.
[8:14]	Zero Linden:	This is for no really good reason than the old message system
[8:14]	Ryozu Kojima:	Zero: What I'd like to see, is the ability for anyone to host not a grid, but a single region on a home machine, and link them to friend regions much like hrefs in html. It may have to be seperate from SL's grid,but I think it could be made to use many of SL's features, if they were modularized.. Making our names an identy to be used on the entire web, for example.
[8:14]	Zero Linden:	When message liberation ships - it will become much easier for that data to get to the viewer
[8:15]	Tree Kyomoon:	I agree with Ryozu
[8:15]	Wyn Galbraith:	As much as I'd like more groups I'm worried that more would become hard to manage unless you could divide them into groups theirselves, like Education, Fun, Business, etc.
[8:15]	Ryozu Kojima:	The one could travel from the main grid to a friend's region and maintain identity.. Further, if the L$ became it's own independant service, one could use it more like Paypal to pay for things, even when on a seperate grid.
[8:16]	Zha Ewry nods "The hard think Ryozu.. is stuff like permissions. Trust between sime an asset sevrers, but it's the right goal"
[8:16]	Ryozu Kojima:	That's the thing
[8:16]	Rex Cronon:	each user with their own sims, hosted on their computers:)
[8:16]	Ryozu Kojima:	I imagine Assets would be grid dependent
[8:16]	Zero Linden:	As for the future role of SL on the Internet, and LL in that cosmos, believe you me, we are well into deep thinking about that here.
[8:16]	Zero Linden:	I believe in about a months time I'll be ready to talk more about that here with you
[8:16]	Ryozu Kojima:	I've been thinking about just how SL could be the next WWW for the last two years.
[8:16]	Ryozu Kojima:	How you all were going to pull it off, that is ;)
[8:16]	Zero Linden:	(there - will that keep you coming back?!?!)
[8:17]	Ryozu Kojima:	Hehe
[8:17]	Tree Kyomoon:	lol
[8:17]	Tree Kyomoon:	suspense!
[8:17]	Zero Linden:	As for groups - when we build the Agent Domain - and then when we move groups to it, we'll be able to relax many of the restrictions on them
[8:17]	Ryozu Kojima:	I've only recently came to the conclusion that it'll be through modularization and providing services, but not controling the entire thing.
[8:17]	Ryozu Kojima:	Oooh, hope that's soon
[8:17]	Zero Linden:	right now - there is just too many problems (all hail the central DB)
[8:17]	Zha Ewry grins Super. Zero. Nice to know there are some reasons :-)
[8:17]	Wyn Galbraith would keep coming back anyway.
[8:17]	Tree Kyomoon:	just like CIsco did in the early 90's
[8:18]	Jarod Godel hisses at Zero
[8:18]	Gotthilf Fischer:	Hi everyone.
[8:18]	Couch sit 2(male model setup) RED: Gotthilf Fischer, say '/1 Hide' to hide me, or '/1 Show' to make me show. Or just right-click and sit on me to use me.
[8:18]	Tree Kyomoon:	provide the tools and leave th content to the residnets
[8:18]	Rex Cronon:	hi
[8:18]	Ryozu Kojima:	In a way, they do that already,but they also control the tools
[8:18]	Tree Kyomoon:	hi foxy
[8:18]	Ryozu Kojima:	The WWW is what it is today because the tools were open and out there
[8:19]	Tree Kyomoon:	and companies like Macromedia and Adobe came along and made awesome tools
[8:19]	Dr Scofield:	and everybody can host their own content if they want to
[8:19]	Ryozu Kojima:	Ultimately, LL should be what Mozilla is to the internet
[8:19]	Zha Ewry:	Yes.. but there are more interdendencies in the immersive web, because of the state sharing. I can't muck up your assets by playing with them in the WWW. I could in an SL style web
[8:19]	Wyn Galbraith:	Maybe Adobe would make a plugin for sculpted prims ;)
[8:19]	Zero Linden:	Ryozu - we understand that - hence we've open sourced the viewer already - and have said that we will do so for the servers one day too
[8:19]	Ryozu Kojima:	Mozilla, Paypal, Etc, all in one ;)
[8:19]	Jarod Godel:	Mozilla and Apache.
[8:19]	Ryozu Kojima:	Heh, indeed
[8:19]	Jarod Godel:	They're Mozilla now, opening the client.
[8:20]	Tree Kyomoon:	has adobe shown any interest yet?
[8:20]	Dr Scofield:	no, not all in one: federated
[8:20]	Tree Kyomoon:	Ive been hounding the flash lead guy there
[8:20]	Jarod Godel:	But the 3D web needs an Apache.
[8:20]	Zero Linden:	In LL? Who knows....
[8:20]	Ryozu Kojima:	Mozilla: SL Viewer, Apache: SL Server, Paypal: Lindex, Etc.
[8:20]	Jarod Godel:	Adobe used to have Atmosphere.
[8:20]	Dr Scofield:	yep
[8:20]	Tree Kyomoon:	adobe should be partnering with you to build content tools
[8:20]	Wyn Galbraith:	You'd think they'd be interested.
[8:21]	Jarod Godel:	Zero, have you seen Valve's new game, Portal?
[8:21]	Ryozu Kojima:	New game?
[8:21]	Zero Linden:	We don't really partner that much.... we don't have the time --- They can build all the content tools they want right now!
[8:21]	Zero Linden:	There is nothing stopping them
[8:21]	Ryozu Kojima:	Heh
[8:21]	Ryozu Kojima:	They already do =P Photoshop, heh
[8:21]	Jarod Godel:	Where you fire off A portal and B portal, and jump through?
[8:21]	Zero Linden:	Jarod - sorry, the only game I play is Go
[8:21]	Wyn Galbraith:	Maybe we need to bombard them as users with suggestions and requests.
[8:22]	Tree Kyomoon:	yes, if the users go to Adobe direclty
[8:22]	Zero Linden:	(and yes, I play it in SL!)
[8:22]	Ryozu Kojima:	Heh, I should learn Go
[8:22]	Tree Kyomoon:	is Go a card game?
[8:22]	Ryozu Kojima:	Board game
[8:22]	Ryozu Kojima:	Of the ancient variety
[8:22]	Gotthilf Fischer:	Go is awesome.
[8:22]	Jarod Godel:	Nevermind. I just realized, I answered my own question. Sit hack.
[8:22]	Rex Cronon:	is a black and white dots on a grid
[8:23]	Tree Kyomoon:	like pente?
[8:23]	Ryozu Kojima:	Same board, differnt goals
[8:23]	Zero Linden:	Uhm... no, just the most popular board game in the world... but mostly played in Asia: http://senseis.xmp.net/
[8:23]	Tree Kyomoon:	that would be a good SL game
[8:23]	Wyn Galbraith has spent the last week helping to originate a gang of text-based role-players from text-based games she plays.
[8:23]	Jarod Godel:	Go, aka Othello
[8:23]	Zero Linden:	no Go != Othello at all
[8:23]	Tree Kyomoon:	!= hehe hehe
[8:23]	Ryozu Kojima:	Othelo does color flips, Go does captures, I believe
[8:23]	Wyn Galbraith:	Totally different Jarod.
[8:23]	Jarod Godel:	REALLY? Yikes. Sorry.
[8:23]	Gotthilf Fischer:	Go is much more complex, even though you only have black and white stones.
[8:24]	Ryozu Kojima:	And some other fundamental differences, but I can't play either, so I should shut up ;)
[8:24]	Dr Scofield:	/wiki Go
[8:24]	AVpack: Looking for http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/go
[8:24]	Zero Linden:	Othello - pretty easy, strategy well understood. Go - 4,000 year history, 1,000 years of professionals - lifetime to master - etc.
[8:24]	Ryozu Kojima:	Heh
[8:24]	Zha Ewry used to be serious Go. player. Not at all the same.
[8:24]	Jarod Godel:	Interesting.
[8:24]	Tree Kyomoon:	sounds awesome
[8:24]	Dr Scofield:	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Go_%28board_game%29
[8:24]	Tree Kyomoon:	must learn, need to be more nerdy
[8:24]	Ryozu Kojima giggles.
[8:24]	Rex Cronon:	is addictive:)
[8:25]	Jarod Godel:	Yahoo!Games has a Go section. I learned there how much I suck at Go. :)
[8:25]	Wyn Galbraith:	Tree, you're as funny as you are boney
[8:25]	Zero Linden:	http://senseis.xmp.net/?WhatIsGo
[8:25]	Ryozu Kojima:	http://www.gokgs.com/
[8:25]	Ryozu Kojima:	Online Go
[8:25]	Zero Linden:	you can play in world at the Go Center of Second Life
[8:25]	Wyn Galbraith:	I saw a Go table in SL.
[8:25]	Ryozu Kojima:	Or here ;)
[8:25]	Zero Linden:	http://www.flickr.com/photos/92519859@N00/sets/72157600098690999/
[8:26]	Tree Kyomoon:	hey guys, jsut as a cool aside...
[8:26]	Zero Linden:	but - I appologize about going on about my own personal diversion.....
[8:26]	Tree Kyomoon:	I was at a concert last night where three musicians in three locations were all playing together for a concert in SL
[8:26]	Ryozu Kojima:	Indeed
[8:26]	Ryozu Kojima:	Gotta love SL
[8:26]	Zero Linden:	That's great Tree
[8:26]	Gotthilf Fischer:	How did they synchronize it?
[8:26]	Wyn Galbraith loves SL.
[8:26]	Tree Kyomoon:	they improvised a piece on the spot and "jammed" with each other , the sound was perfect
[8:27]	Ryozu Kojima:	Probably through a 4rth "Conductor" type source
[8:27]	Tree Kyomoon:	It was "cypress rosewood" if you know him
[8:27]	Wyn Galbraith:	My son's band wants to do that. That's why I built the castle, to be a place for their fans to come hear them.
[8:27]	Tree Kyomoon:	anyway just had to mention it, it was stunning use of second life and convergence,
[8:27]	Tree Kyomoon:	made me realize we are much more than a glorified chat engine :)
[8:27]	Ryozu Kojima:	A streaming audio with a hearbeat to syncronize with other streams before being routed to a shoutcast I imagine?
[8:28]	Gotthilf Fischer:	You need to hear your companions playing along, though, that's not working with a heartbeat sync.
[8:28]	Ryozu Kojima:	I ramble, anyways
[8:28]	Ryozu Kojima:	I'm also not much of a musician
[8:28]	Zero Linden:	Yes - those are good examples of stuff that make SL what it is
[8:29]	Dr Scofield:	you provide the heartbeat aka beat before it's mixed back togehter
[8:29]	Zero Linden:	well - I think I'm going to try to get Qarl to come talk about sculpty prims for next time..... I'll put it on the calendar and on the wiki if he does
[8:29]	Ryozu Kojima:	Cool
[8:29]	Rex Cronon:	would be really, really cool if it was possible to have/play something like Half-life:)
[8:29]	Tree Kyomoon:	you should call them sculpy
[8:29]	Gotthilf Fischer:	Sculpted prims look like a very cool thing.
[8:29]	Wyn Galbraith jumps up and down, "Yes yes please! Tell him I'm a fan already."
[8:30]	Tree Kyomoon:	sculpy being one of the coolest modelling clays around
[8:30]	Ryozu Kojima:	Rex: That's almost possible, there are some things on the way to help with that I hear
[8:30]	Zero Linden:	Okay all - I'm going to head on out.....
[8:30]	Ryozu Kojima:	Later Zero =)
[8:30]	Zero Linden:	thank you all for coming
[8:30]	Wyn Galbraith:	Ah already?
[8:30]	Zero Linden:	till next week
[8:30]	Rex Cronon:	bye zero
[8:30]	Tree Kyomoon:	thanks Zero!
[8:30]	Wyn Galbraith:	Bye Zero, thanks.
[8:30]	Dr Scofield:	cu!