User:Zero Linden/Office Hours/2008 Jan 22

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Transcript of Zero Linden's office hours:

[13:01] Zero Linden: hi folks
[13:01] Goldie Katsu: Hi Rob
[13:01] Rex Cronon: hi rob
[13:01] Harleen Gretzky: Hi Rob :)
[13:01] Zha Ewry: Hello, oh hippo herder
[13:01] Popsy Babii: hey rob :)
[13:04] Tao Takashi: Hi, invisible and grey people
[13:04] Yoa Ogee: hi everybody
[13:04] Rex Cronon: hi yoa
[13:05] Zha Ewry: Afternoon, Zero ;-)
[13:05] Zero Linden: hello all
[13:05] Goldie Katsu: Hello Zero
[13:05] Popsy Babii: hey zero
[13:05] Rex Cronon: hi zero
[13:05] Harleen Gretzky: Hi Zero :)
[13:05] Saijanai Kuhn: Gord Morning Teacher
[13:05] Kurt Stringer: Hi Zero
[13:06] Zha Ewry: People start grabbing chairs in here about 40 minujtes before you meeting, Zero ;-)
[13:06] Zero Linden: I don't mind sitting on the wall
[13:06] Talarus Luan would rather stand. most chairs are not comfortable for wings and tail. :)
[13:07] Goldie Katsu: I suppose that is better than being on the fence.
[13:07] Squirrel Wood: /ao off
[13:07] Arawn Spitteler: /ao off
[13:08] Rex Cronon: so, what is new zero?
[13:08] Zero Linden: Well - I'm in LL's brand spanking new office in Mountain View, CA
[13:08] Zha Ewry: Zero.. .. are texures still in the UDP pipe?
[13:08] Zero Linden: And we have the rawkin' direct trunk line to the SF co-lo
[13:08] Zero Linden: so, I have this great SL expereince just now
[13:09] Zha Ewry: Cool
[13:09] Arawn Spitteler recalls Andrew mentioning something about carrying Plywood Blocks about
[13:09] Zero Linden: which, I admit, has the downside that I'm not exposed daily to what most resdients suffer through
[13:09] Squirrel Wood: everything loading in ZERO time? ^^
[13:09] Zha Ewry: I'm seeing about 55 msec ping times, Zero.
[13:09] Saijanai Kuhn: Zero experiences SL in Zero time...
[13:09] Zero Linden: actually, my ping is showing awful - 394ms...
[13:09] Sae Juran: hi all (rezzin)
[13:10] Rex Cronon: u r connected to the source? your network must have something like zero delay time
[13:10] Zero Linden: but, it is just fash
[13:10] Rex Cronon: hi sae
[13:10] Zha Ewry's wireless hub is pretty close to the corporate fiber gate into the guts of the internet
[13:10] Zero Linden: it's a haul, so longer, but almost now packet loss and as much bandwidth as I can take
[13:10] Sae Juran: ops, is your arm fine Saij ? lol
[13:11] Zero Linden: anyhow
[13:11] Zha Ewry: So.. Does anyonje have a list of what's on the various pipes, at the moment, and what's scheduled to move to new pipes?
[13:11] Rex Cronon: mointainview, isn't that close to google?
[13:11] Zha Ewry: We were trying to understand, what things we should push on to make sure they are edge network cache friendly and such
[13:11] Zero Linden: welcome all to my office hours - held in public, by the public, for the public, --- publically!
[13:11] Zha Ewry: Caps totally bust that for a lot of things
[13:11] Zero Linden: Rex - same city
[13:12] Zha Ewry blinks as Rex sit on her lap
[13:12] Rex Cronon: ooops, don't know how i gotthere
[13:12] Saijanai Kuhn: Rex and Zha... OK...
[13:13] Sven Cormer: hallo :-)
[13:13] Sae Juran: what is the topic? if one
[13:13] Zha Ewry shrugs I'm tiny, but the client normally doesn't let people sit on me :-)
[13:13] Saijanai Kuhn: BTW, LIndens, grats on the new record high of ~62K
[13:13] Sven Cormer: german ?
[13:13] Zero Linden: Speaking of the new office - Linden Lab is holding a recruitment party in Mtn View, the end of this month
[13:13] Zero Linden:
[13:13] Rex Cronon: i just zoomd around and next thing i know i was sitting on your chair
[13:13] Saijanai Kuhn: LOL beentrying to get a job with you guys fo r5 months now, Zro...
[13:14] Zero Linden: Now - no topic today that I ahve, but I notice Rob Linden is here - Rob, did yo have anything to bring up?
[13:14] Goldie Katsu: Two left turns Rex.
[13:14] blackcrow6667 Garmes: I applied a month ago .. I'm hoping 2012 is the year for me <3
[13:14] Zha Ewry: If not, I will pester you mecrilessly about cachable resources, caps, and http dformats
[13:14] Zha Ewry: and will ask Neas to do horrible things with O(n) notation
[13:15] Rex Cronon: what do u mean goldie?
[13:15] Zero Linden: Oooo - Zha - ask^h^h^hpester away
[13:15] Zero Linden: nothing in particular (sorry, caught me looking away)
[13:15] Zha Ewry: Well. right now, I think, the bulk of the netwrok traffic is still on the UDP pipe
[13:16] Zha Ewry: but.. We were ttying to sort out texture load in particular
[13:16] Saijanai Kuhn: 99% I suspect
[13:16] Zha Ewry: And.. wondering how to make sure it caches as well as possible in the levels of the pipes
[13:16] Zero Linden: yes -
[13:16] Zero Linden: well, first offf, 95% percent of traffic is textures -
[13:16] Zha Ewry: For example, Neas, and I, share and edge connection into the web's backbone, with a honking big cache
[13:16] Zero Linden: (might be off by a few percent)
[13:16] Zha Ewry: it would be really, really, nice, if all the textures I load, or he loads, the other can pull off that cache
[13:17] Zero Linden: There is a plan a foot to move ALL that traffice off UDP, into normal HTTP image fetches
[13:17] Zha Ewry: but.. HTTPS, and.. Caps.. will prevent that
[13:17] Squirrel Wood noted that the client caching system needs a very major overhaul as it stands... mayhaps start there to reduce traffic load :)
[13:17] Zha Ewry: Ahh.
[13:17] Zha Ewry: Pure normlal http fetch owuld be good
[13:17] Zero Linden: Those, of course, should be transparently cacheable
[13:17] Zha Ewry grins
[13:18] Zha Ewry: also does some very good n+m vs nxm things for you in terms of caching
[13:18] Zero Linden: The rest, well, I'm not sure the value of caching between grid servers and viewers is worth the complications
[13:18] Zha Ewry: Textures, are the big culprits
[13:18] Zha Ewry: We all share those
[13:18] Zha Ewry: We share far less of the last 5% of the stream
[13:18] Zero Linden: BUT - look at search, things like classifieds and profile pages should (could) be normal HTML pages, with normal HTTP fetches = more caching
[13:19] Zero Linden: Right - so, things like group chat -
[13:19] Zero Linden: probably not worth the extra mechanics to make the chat stream from a group IM session cacheable
[13:19] Zha Ewry: Not only nor worht it, you get all sorts of security pain
[13:19] Zero Linden: well, not "probably", "definitely"
[13:20] Zero Linden: well, I can think of ways to do it and preserve the security - but... too much work
[13:20] Zha Ewry: So.... right now, etexture load is still in the UDP pipe?
[13:20] Zero Linden: more work and more traffic than just making it not cachebale
[13:20] Zero Linden: Zha - yes
[13:20] Zero Linden: the code to do textures over HTTP has been 95% completed for over a year now
[13:20] Zha Ewry nods
[13:21] Tao Takashi: sounds like my projects ;-)
[13:21] Zha Ewry: I think that ha s been said before
[13:21] Talarus Luan: The last 5% must be where 95% of the pain is, then. :P
[13:21] Zero Linden: the probalem is that the there is a bad DOS vector in the code path that we have to fix on the server for it
[13:21] Saijanai Kuhn: LOL
[13:21] Jiz Source: YO YO
[13:21] Zero Linden: and we have an unexplained small percentage of failures during fetching...
[13:21] Zha Ewry: DOS attack?
[13:21] Zero Linden: Denial of Service
[13:21] Zha Ewry: Ouch
[13:21] Rex Cronon: btw, talking about images, u can no longer upload lossless images:(
[13:22] Zero Linden: right now, the simulator, since it mediates all the UDP messages, including textures, can
[13:22] Stormbringer Blackflag: you spend 95% of your time on the first 95% of the project, and then you spend 95% of your time on the last 95% of the project
[13:22] Talarus Luan: Yes, I didn't think you mean Disk Operating System. :P
[13:22] Zero Linden: basically throttle the texture requests from a given client
[13:22] Zero Linden: but, if we send the viewer off to ask for textures from some lovely HTTP texture server in the sky,
[13:22] Zero Linden: well, the HTTP server isn't really keeping track of per-viewer request rates
[13:22] Zero Linden: we need to have it do that in an inexpensive manner
[13:22] Zha Ewry: clueless, probably
[13:23] Sae Juran: could but dont
[13:23] Zha Ewry: And.. in fact.. no reason to assume it's comming from a client, is there?
[13:23] Zero Linden: well - yes, I'm of a like mind
[13:23] Zero Linden: but others are panicy
[13:24] Squirrel Wood: I have a 25mbit connection at hand. I would be happy if SL would make use of it. May put a higher load on the service but for a shorter time.
[13:24] Zero Linden: Exactly - I don't see the problem
[13:24] Sae Juran: cant the sim just "filter/forward" the request for that and/or security reasons? else i can download textures with firefox
[13:24] Zha Ewry: Well, end of day, Sae, the client isgoing to do a bog standard http get
[13:24] Talarus Luan: Something like mod_throttle/mod_curb?
[13:24] Zero Linden: So, I think we'll see some traction on this this quarter
[13:24] Zha Ewry: Not much of a way to control those
[13:24] Rex Cronon: the problem is that textures can be stole
[13:24] Saijanai Kuhn: thoguht most stuff was POST
[13:25] Sae Juran: yes, i was that thinking that secutiry is an issue too, cos if i can access bytes i can steal and upload it
[13:25] Zha Ewry: The stolen issue, is just an ease issue.
[13:25] Sae Juran: and also the point zero said
[13:25] Squirrel Wood: they can be stolen right here and now as well. If you know what to do.
[13:25] Stormbringer Blackflag: rex, they already can be
[13:25] Zha Ewry: All those bytes are accesible now
[13:26] Stormbringer Blackflag: even without http
[13:26] Sae Juran: the sim can evaluate from AV position to forward or not the requested texture
[13:26] Zha Ewry: Granted, itdoes make it a lttle easir
[13:26] Zha Ewry: The Sim.. sholdn't even be on the path, thoe, Sae
[13:26] Zero Linden: Sae - indeed - "you're already soaking in it"... (dating myself again)
[13:26] Stormbringer Blackflag: not by much zha. i have a bot that will download any texture
[13:26] Talarus Luan: I thought that was part of what sim caps were supposed to mitigate.
[13:26] Zero Linden: All those bytes are on your computer right now -
[13:27] blackcrow6667 Garmes: yeah, short of encryption, what can you od ?
[13:27] Zero Linden: and you can extract 'em from your graphics card with open source OpenGL code.....
[13:27] Zero Linden: So.....
[13:27] Stormbringer Blackflag: exactly, it's drm all over again
[13:27] Sae Juran: yes i know but why make it even easier ? lol
[13:27] Goldie Katsu slips away to another meeting, resulting in her being here in body but not in spirit.
[13:27] Sae Juran: also, with the way i figured, it may work on a space-based way, with multiple request at once
[13:28] Zha Ewry: In terms of the web... The goal is to make the http get for a texure as flat as possible
[13:28] Rex Cronon: i guess the sim could say: if u r not the owner of that texture than that texture can't be used in the this sim
[13:28] Zha Ewry: if everyone who fetches the texture uses the same url
[13:28] Zha Ewry: then, and only then, do we get the best caching
[13:28] Zero Linden: well, actually, as the current HTTP code path for textures is constructed, you'll still have to be in-world to get 'em
[13:28] Zero Linden: though I think that should change longer term
[13:28] Sae Juran: like, if i'm here i surely need the texture used about N meters, without adding payloads for each prim
[13:29] Zero Linden: Yes, Zha, true enough
[13:29] Zha Ewry: The more you make it contexual, the more the bog standard web apliances can't help you
[13:29] Zero Linden: Yes -
[13:29] Sae Juran: well i was saying about a sort of prediction system
[13:30] Tao Takashi: but if the actual name of the texture is a UUID then I guess a simple scraping would not be possible anyway
[13:30] Zha Ewry: How are you getting it via login?
[13:30] Zero Linden: Sae - the viewer and simulator right now do a fair bit of computation to figure out what you can see and only send you geometry for those things
[13:30] Zha Ewry: (is there a re-direct)
[13:30] Zero Linden: and in turn the viewer only requests textures for that which it can render
[13:30] Zero Linden: in fact, it will be doing byte-range requests so that it only fetches the MIP levels that it needs
[13:30] Sae Juran: also geometry? i didnt tell anything about what u can really view
[13:31] Zha Ewry: The client sends the frustrum up to the sim
[13:31] Zero Linden: (which was one of the motivations for using JPEG2k, rather than JPEG, since it has that property)
[13:31] Zha Ewry: so it kknows what you can see
[13:31] Zero Linden: "frustrum" is one of my favorite words
[13:31] blackcrow6667 Garmes: lol
[13:31] Sae Juran: the purpose was moslty when u tp somewhere, but i guess it one of latest point in SL todo list
[13:31] Zha Ewry: You allways do progressive encoding, right?
[13:31] Zha Ewry: So you can pull just the first few layers?
[13:32] Zero Linden: And Richard Serra's "Torqued Ellipses", which are cone frustra, is one of my favorite sculptures
[13:32] Zero Linden: Zha, yes
[13:33] Zha Ewry: Zero. We were looking at the long queue
[13:33] Zero Linden: I believe someone here figured out that you can almost always get the first MIP lavel or two in the first 1k
[13:33] Zha Ewry: Is there anything that currenttly shows how that's being done
[13:33] Saijanai Kuhn: long-poll on the queue...
[13:33] Zero Linden: On the sim side?
[13:34] Zha Ewry: and. for agent split, are you going to both split and move things from UDP to caps as you go?
[13:34] Zha Ewry: or move to caps, first, then migrate them capability?
[13:34] Talarus Luan: Probably a gimme(<textureuuid>,<numberofbytes>) message of some kind.
[13:35] Zha Ewry is tying to sort out the first steps in stteing up to follow along with that in OpenSim land
[13:35] Squirrel Wood: gimme <uuid>,<mip-level> ?
[13:36] Zero Linden: Sq.: no, we do byte range fetches from a single URL that names the whole texture
[13:36] Zha Ewry: Ideally, the sim sends down the bytezone markers, I guess
[13:36] Zero Linden: this is better for caching
[13:36] Zha Ewry: and then you ask for them
[13:36] Zero Linden: Zha - no real need, and that requires the sims to read the textures
[13:36] Talarus Luan: Well, if there is a directory in the jpeg2k file that is preloaded, that would work, too, I guess.
[13:36] Zero Linden: the HUGE win for HTTP texture change isn't really the move of textures from UDP to TCP (thought that is a win of sorts)
[13:37] Zha Ewry: Well, read them once, and store the metadata, but yeah
[13:37] Zero Linden: it is that the simulator no longer has to have the textures flow thourgh them at all
[13:37] Talarus Luan: It is to get it off the sims' back
[13:37] Zha Ewry: right
[13:37] Zha Ewry: Ok. So.. the sim sends down the UUIDs
[13:37] blackcrow6667 Garmes: so a little loss moving to TCP but a great gain that way
[13:37] Zha Ewry: the client hopefully looks in the cache
[13:37] Tao Takashi: maybe it should send whole URLs so it can also be an external texture
[13:38] Zero Linden: actually, we measure, despite the TCP and HTTP overheads, a net gain on the network traffic side
[13:38] Zha Ewry: and then, needs to decide how much to get
[13:38] Zero Linden: !
[13:38] Zha Ewry: Does it double pump?
[13:38] Zha Ewry: (get the first bit, then ask for the byte range?)
[13:38] Zero Linden: Zha - yes, the texture pipeline in the viewer I belive always asks for the first 1k first
[13:38] Zha Ewry goes hmmmmm
[13:39] Zero Linden: this is good as it gets the squid cache on our side to fetch the whole texture locally
[13:39] Zha Ewry nods
[13:39] Zero Linden: (squid, on seeing a byte-range request, requests the whole thing and then serves the range)
[13:39] Zha Ewry: That can come out of a network edge cache too, yes?
[13:39] Zha Ewry: or. is it too deeply hidden?
[13:39] Zero Linden: So that by the time the viewer asks for the next byte range, the whole texture is in the squid on the machine where the viewer is talking
[13:40] Tao Takashi: squid is per sim I guess?
[13:40] Zero Linden: Zha - I think in this first iteration, it will not be externally cacheable
[13:40] Zha Ewry: ahhh
[13:40] Zha Ewry nods
[13:40] Talarus Luan: No, there is a squid for a group of sims, I believe.
[13:40] Zha Ewry: one per four, I think
[13:41] Zha Ewry: three?
[13:41] Talarus Luan: Well, servers, really, not sims
[13:41] Zha Ewry mutters
[13:41] Zero Linden: wel, there is one squid per sim host
[13:41] Zero Linden: sim hosts usually have four regions on 'em
[13:41] Zha Ewry: but sim hosts hold mutiple regions, yes?
[13:41] Zero Linden: though can have 16 void regions
[13:41] Talarus Luan: So you don't do any other caching in the middle for larger groups of servers?
[13:42] Tao Takashi: ok
[13:42] Zha Ewry: Well, Talarus, at the moment, its all in the UDP pipe, and not cachable, I expect
[13:43] Zha Ewry: The sims could, I suppose
[13:43] Sae Juran: sorry, then u will have 1 server for 95% of traffic of 62K clients?
[13:43] Zha Ewry: No
[13:43] Talarus Luan: Well, on the sim->client end, yes, but not on the sim->asset server end
[13:43] Zha Ewry: 1 squid per four regions
[13:43] Talarus Luan: squid is a http proxy
[13:44] blackcrow6667 Garmes: im curious, why was image resizing in the viewer removed ?
[13:44] Sae Juran: taliking about texture using http request, what about texture server
[13:44] Saijanai Kuhn: not relevant to UDP ?
[13:44] Zero Linden: right now we have: [Asset Cluster (internal caching & redudancy)] -> Sim Host's Squid -> Sim process (internal cache) -> (UDP) -> Viewer
[13:44] Zero Linden: New mechanism has:
[13:44] Zha Ewry: There is http level caching of textures, between the sims and the asset cluster
[13:44] Tao Takashi: so internally textures are fetched via HTTP?
[13:44] Zero Linden: [Asset Cluster (internal caching & redudancy)] -> Sim Host's Squid -> Sim Host's Backbone -> (TCP & HTTP) -> Viewer
[13:45] Talarus Luan: Ouch.. 5000 servers hitting the asset cluster directly.
[13:45] Zero Linden: Yes, internally the asset store is just a large HTTP store
[13:45] Sae Juran: got it
[13:45] Zha Ewry: A *VERY* large HTTP store
[13:45] Squirrel Wood: if you upload a 1024x1023 texture, why is it downsized to 1024x512?
[13:45] Zero Linden: Remember, the asset cluster has many edge connections and is internally redudant
[13:45] Talarus Luan: truncation
[13:45] Kurt Stringer: 1
[13:45] Saijanai Kuhn: rounded down to nearest power of 2
[13:46] Zero Linden: Sq - all textures must have dimensions of pwers of 2 (common OpenGL requirement)
[13:46] Sae Juran: as any copression requires squrrel
[13:46] Squirrel Wood: nearest power of 2 would be 1024 in this case :p
[13:46] Sae Juran: lower indeed :P
[13:46] Talarus Luan: Though rounding would probably be better
[13:46] Zero Linden: if you upload a non power of two, we must choose something - and I'm pretty sure no matter how we tuned it, it would be wrong for some class of users
[13:47] Zero Linden: SO - rule is do your own resizing to powers of two
[13:47] blackcrow6667 Garmes: so might as well trim the size :)
[13:47] Sae Juran: image compression algothims work with some limitation and works *good* in some cases, thats why also
[13:47] Zero Linden: If you are on a mac: check out the command line tool "sips" - it is part of OS X and very good at doing this sort of thing with high fidelity
[13:47] Squirrel Wood: I usually do size my textures properly. Just thought it to be odd to round 1023 *down* to 512 when 1024 is clearly the *nearest* power of 2
[13:48] Zero Linden: in OS X 10.5, Preview and Automater can do it easily too ( all part of OS X)
[13:48] Talarus Luan: Yep. I would agree
[13:48] Stormbringer Blackflag: heh zero i didn't know about sips, i just installed imagemagick like an hour ago
[13:48] Arawn Spitteler: (integer) .99999=0
[13:48] Sae Juran: the only point of this can be to add a warning on client ....
[13:48] Squirrel Wood: yes. yes. If you make 0 just big enough it is almost as big as a teensy tiny itty little bit of 1 :p
[13:49] blackcrow6667 Garmes: heh
[13:49] Sae Juran: zero, its not really in topic, but would always ask something about distributed computing in SL, on high request servers, like asset, u using it in some ways ?
[13:49] Gribbley Spyker: hello all
[13:50] Rex Cronon: hi gribbley
[13:50] blackcrow6667 Garmes: squirrel, it would be more in their interests to shave the texture size anyway they can so
[13:51] Sae Juran: (i mean as a distributed computing based database, basically)
[13:51] Talarus Luan: gah.. *kills spammy attachment creators* :-/
[13:52] Arawn Spitteler can't see Zero
[13:52] blackcrow6667 Garmes: he disappeared ..
[13:52] Sae Juran: me neither
[13:52] Talarus Luan: Keeerashed
[13:52] Sae Juran: hey rob rob rob eheheheh
[13:52] Talarus Luan: Dogpile on Rob instead!
[13:52] Rex Cronon: zero crash?
[13:52] Zero Linden: he just got back online
[13:52] Sae Juran: :)
[13:52] Arawn Spitteler wonders of the significance of having Zero Vision of Zero
[13:52] Sae Juran: wb 0
[13:52] Goldie Katsu: Good pipes doesn't change the client behavior.
[13:52] Zero Linden: Fie!
[13:52] Goldie Katsu: Wb 0
[13:53] Zero Linden: No, good pipes in fact might just tickle the viewer more.... who knows?!?!?!
[13:53] Talarus Luan: nor the simulator. :-/
[13:53] Rex Cronon: r u using windlight, zero?
[13:53] Sae Juran: zero, its not really in topic, but would always ask something about distributed computing in SL, on high request servers, like asset, u using it in some ways ? (i mean as a distributed computing based database, basically)
[13:54] Saijanai Kuhn: Sae, that kind of thing couldbe supported client side, but not something the lindens wouldwant to get into It hink
[13:54] Zero Linden: Sae - I'm not sure what you mean exactly - the asset server does no computation - just document serving
[13:54] Zero Linden: Essentially, the whole grid is one giant distributed server
[13:54] Zero Linden: er, distributed computation
[13:54] Sae Juran: yes yes
[13:54] Talarus Luan: There is nothing in SL that needs to be a Beowulf cluster. :P
[13:55] Zero Linden: it is all a matter of at what level of grain you are looking
[13:55] Sae Juran: i was talking about database/archive
[13:55] Sae Juran: well, google's BigTable is a good sample
[13:55] Zero Linden: The database is nothing special - mysql
[13:55] Zero Linden: with slaves
[13:55] Sae Juran: y maybe current request traffic doesnt require that
[13:56] blackcrow6667 Garmes: so many people hate MySQL ..not sure why exactly :P
[13:56] Sae Juran: love it
[13:56] Talarus Luan: I loves it. :)
[13:56] Talarus Luan hugs his MySQL servers.
[13:56] blackcrow6667 Garmes: try going into #SQL on EFNet and watch how fast you get banned :D
[13:56] Zero Linden: well, relational databases do well when the read load exceeds the write load by a large factor
[13:56] Zero Linden: games and SL both have the write load much closer to the read load
[13:57] Zero Linden: Most web based applications have the read load high
[13:57] Zero Linden: so, databases work well there
[13:58] Talarus Luan: That all comes down to tuning different databases for handling different sectors of your data load.
[13:58] Sae Juran: about database, i got excited reading the google bigtable whitepaper
[13:59] Talarus Luan: Lots of static content can be tuned well for high read/low write load, and dynamic data can be on a differently tuned database for more balanced read/write
[13:59] Talarus Luan: There's no one configuration for all
[13:59] Tara5 Oh: jus did an interview with Grady Booch and he said AWG was the happening thing in the world of virtual world architecture design!
[13:59] Talarus Luan: O.o
[14:00] Zero Linden: heh - I spoke with him this Fall - he's a big fan of SL
[14:00] Anamolie Poitier: have you seen the ms seadragon system yet? it handles large image databases with spacial reletivity. they made a small vr like sl out of photos from flickr and their system automaticaly peiced them into a 3d mesh
[14:01] Tara5 Oh: the decisions made by AWG will be some of the most important re the future of 3Dplatforms for software design!!!
[14:01] Zero Linden: Friends - alas, I needs must go
[14:01] Sae Juran: y but requiring TONS of clocks cycles and coffee
[14:01] Zero Linden: thanks all
[14:01] Jason Swain: Thank you for a very interesting Office Hour Zero. Have a good day ^^
[14:01] Tara5 Oh: yes he is a BIG fan
[14:01] Rex Cronon: bye zero
[14:01] Sae Juran: bye 0, good work
[14:01] Squirrel Wood: Have fun Zero :)
[14:01] Jiz Source: thanks zero
[14:01] Stormbringer Blackflag: thank you!
[14:01] Tara5 Oh: bye zero!
[14:01] blackcrow6667 Garmes: I have a question for those who are remaining .. why did SL go open source in the first place?
[14:02] Sae Juran: to reduce bugs :P ?
[14:02] Zero Linden: I guess I can answer that before I go
[14:02] blackcrow6667 Garmes: at the cost of aiding their compedators?
[14:02] Rex Cronon: what the seadragon makes looks like a collection of vertices, i haven't seen any polygons
[14:02] Talarus Luan: Because SL relies on a lot of FOSS code to begin with, and they saw the valur in a larger collaborative development audience.
[14:02] blackcrow6667 Garmes: *competitors
[14:02] Sae Juran is all ears
[14:02] Talarus Luan: Competition is healthy. Helping your competitors can ultimately help you.
[14:02] Jiz Source: no open source allows improves and strives to make a standard across all platforms...
[14:03] Squirrel Wood: /ao on
[14:03] Zero Linden: we did it for a lot of reasons, but one big reason is to help establish standards in virtual worlds....
[14:03] Jiz Source: yep bingo
[14:03] Arawn Spitteler: Linden Labs hires a Quarter Thousand highly imaginative people, requiring 50,000 people to debug the result
[14:03] Sae Juran: right
[14:04] Zero Linden: a lot of the bugfixing benefits are nice, but are secondary. we realized that we just couldn't build it all alone
[14:04] Sae Juran: i wonder if marketing manager adreed with that
[14:04] Sae Juran: *agreed
[14:04] blackcrow6667 Garmes: rob, if you could've done it alone ..would you have still made it open source ?
[14:05] Zero Linden: hmmm....that's probably too hypothetical to answer
[14:05] blackcrow6667 Garmes: it relates to your business plan i gather :)
[14:05] Zero Linden: it's hard to imagine being in a situation where we could hire as many people as it would take to do it right all by ourselves
[14:05] Talarus Luan: Excuse you, Maltos. :)
[14:05] Sae Juran: y in fact, they earn from ppl not for selling client
[14:05] Arawn Spitteler seems to recall the occassional hiring of new marketing managers: I see LL deviding eventually into several functions, such as Grid Maintanence, and Simulator Services, in seperate corporations.
[14:06] Maltos Sosa: opps
[14:06] Kurt Stringer: bye all
[14:06] Zero Linden: I've got someone waiting for me on the phone, so I should get going
[14:06] Rex Cronon: bye kurt
[14:06] blackcrow6667 Garmes: thanks for answering that rob :)
[14:06] Jason Swain: See you Rob, thanks ^^