User:Zero Linden/Office Hours/2008 Jan 22

Transcript of Zero Linden's office hours:

[13:01]	Zero Linden:	hi folks
[13:01]	Goldie Katsu:	Hi Rob
[13:01]	Rex Cronon:	hi rob
[13:01]	Harleen Gretzky:	Hi Rob :)
[13:01]	Zha Ewry:	Hello, oh hippo herder
[13:01]	Popsy Babii:	hey rob :)
[13:04]	Tao Takashi:	Hi, invisible and grey people
[13:04]	Yoa Ogee:	hi everybody
[13:04]	Rex Cronon:	hi yoa
[13:05]	Zha Ewry:	Afternoon, Zero ;-)
[13:05]	Zero Linden:	hello all
[13:05]	Goldie Katsu:	Hello Zero
[13:05]	Popsy Babii:	hey zero
[13:05]	Rex Cronon:	hi zero
[13:05]	Harleen Gretzky:	Hi Zero :)
[13:05]	Saijanai Kuhn:	Gord Morning Teacher
[13:05]	Kurt Stringer:	Hi Zero
[13:06]	Zha Ewry:	People start grabbing chairs in here about 40 minujtes before you meeting, Zero ;-)
[13:06]	Zero Linden:	I don't mind sitting on the wall
[13:06]	Talarus Luan would rather stand. most chairs are not comfortable for wings and tail. :)
[13:07]	Goldie Katsu:	I suppose that is better than being on the fence.
[13:07]	Squirrel Wood:	/ao off
[13:07]	Arawn Spitteler:	/ao off
[13:08]	Rex Cronon:	so, what is new zero?
[13:08]	Zero Linden:	Well - I'm in LL's brand spanking new office in Mountain View, CA
[13:08]	Zha Ewry:	Zero.. .. are texures still in the UDP pipe?
[13:08]	Zero Linden:	And we have the rawkin' direct trunk line to the SF co-lo
[13:08]	Zero Linden:	so, I have this great SL expereince just now
[13:09]	Zha Ewry:	Cool
[13:09]	Arawn Spitteler recalls Andrew mentioning something about carrying Plywood Blocks about
[13:09]	Zero Linden:	which, I admit, has the downside that I'm not exposed daily to what most resdients suffer through
[13:09]	Squirrel Wood:	everything loading in ZERO time? ^^
[13:09]	Zha Ewry:	I'm seeing about 55 msec ping times, Zero.
[13:09]	Saijanai Kuhn:	Zero experiences SL in Zero time...
[13:09]	Zero Linden:	actually, my ping is showing awful - 394ms...
[13:09]	Sae Juran:	hi all (rezzin)
[13:10]	Rex Cronon:	u r connected to the source? your network must have something like zero delay time
[13:10]	Zero Linden:	but, it is just fash
[13:10]	Rex Cronon:	hi sae
[13:10]	Zha Ewry's wireless hub is pretty close to the corporate fiber gate into the guts of the internet
[13:10]	Zero Linden:	it's a haul, so longer, but almost now packet loss and as much bandwidth as I can take
[13:10]	Sae Juran:	ops, is your arm fine Saij ? lol
[13:11]	Zero Linden:	anyhow
[13:11]	Zha Ewry:	So.. Does anyonje have a list of what's on the various pipes, at the moment, and what's scheduled to move to new pipes?
[13:11]	Rex Cronon:	mointainview, isn't that close to google?
[13:11]	Zha Ewry:	We were trying to understand, what things we should push on to make sure they are edge network cache friendly and such
[13:11]	Zero Linden:	welcome all to my office hours - held in public, by the public, for the public, --- publically!
[13:11]	Zha Ewry:	Caps totally bust that for a lot of things
[13:11]	Zero Linden:	Rex - same city
[13:12]	Zha Ewry blinks as Rex sit on her lap
[13:12]	Rex Cronon:	ooops, don't know how i gotthere
[13:12]	Saijanai Kuhn:	Rex and Zha... OK...
[13:13]	Sven Cormer:	hallo :-)
[13:13]	Sae Juran:	what is the topic? if one
[13:13]	Zha Ewry shrugs I'm tiny, but the client normally doesn't let people sit on me :-)
[13:13]	Saijanai Kuhn:	BTW, LIndens, grats on the new record high of ~62K
[13:13]	Sven Cormer:	german ?
[13:13]	Zero Linden:	Speaking of the new office - Linden Lab is holding a recruitment party in Mtn View, the end of this month
[13:13]	Zero Linden:	http://lindenlab.com/vip
[13:13]	Rex Cronon:	i just zoomd around and next thing i know i was sitting on your chair
[13:13]	Saijanai Kuhn:	LOL beentrying to get a job with you guys fo r5 months now, Zro...
[13:14]	Zero Linden:	Now - no topic today that I ahve, but I notice Rob Linden is here - Rob, did yo have anything to bring up?
[13:14]	Goldie Katsu:	Two left turns Rex.
[13:14]	blackcrow6667 Garmes:	I applied a month ago .. I'm hoping 2012 is the year for me <3
[13:14]	Zha Ewry:	If not, I will pester you mecrilessly about cachable resources, caps, and http dformats
[13:14]	Zha Ewry:	and will ask Neas to do horrible things with O(n) notation
[13:15]	Rex Cronon:	what do u mean goldie?
[13:15]	Zero Linden:	Oooo - Zha - ask^h^h^hpester away
[13:15]	Zero Linden:	nothing in particular (sorry, caught me looking away)
[13:15]	Zha Ewry:	Well. right now, I think, the bulk of the netwrok traffic is still on the UDP pipe
[13:16]	Zha Ewry:	but.. We were ttying to sort out texture load in particular
[13:16]	Saijanai Kuhn:	99% I suspect
[13:16]	Zha Ewry:	And.. wondering how to make sure it caches as well as possible in the levels of the pipes
[13:16]	Zero Linden:	yes -
[13:16]	Zero Linden:	well, first offf, 95% percent of traffic is textures -
[13:16]	Zha Ewry:	For example, Neas, and I, share and edge connection into the web's backbone, with a honking big cache
[13:16]	Zero Linden:	(might be off by a few percent)
[13:16]	Zha Ewry:	it would be really, really, nice, if all the textures I load, or he loads, the other can pull off that cache
[13:17]	Zero Linden:	There is a plan a foot to move ALL that traffice off UDP, into normal HTTP image fetches
[13:17]	Zha Ewry:	but.. HTTPS, and.. Caps.. will prevent that
[13:17]	Squirrel Wood noted that the client caching system needs a very major overhaul as it stands... mayhaps start there to reduce traffic load :)
[13:17]	Zha Ewry:	Ahh.
[13:17]	Zha Ewry:	Pure normlal http fetch owuld be good
[13:17]	Zero Linden:	Those, of course, should be transparently cacheable
[13:17]	Zha Ewry grins
[13:18]	Zha Ewry:	also does some very good n+m vs nxm things for you in terms of caching
[13:18]	Zero Linden:	The rest, well, I'm not sure the value of caching between grid servers and viewers is worth the complications
[13:18]	Zha Ewry:	Textures, are the big culprits
[13:18]	Zha Ewry:	We all share those
[13:18]	Zha Ewry:	We share far less of the last 5% of the stream
[13:18]	Zero Linden:	BUT - look at search, things like classifieds and profile pages should (could) be normal HTML pages, with normal HTTP fetches = more caching
[13:19]	Zero Linden:	Right - so, things like group chat -
[13:19]	Zero Linden:	probably not worth the extra mechanics to make the chat stream from a group IM session cacheable
[13:19]	Zha Ewry:	Not only nor worht it, you get all sorts of security pain
[13:19]	Zero Linden:	well, not "probably", "definitely"
[13:20]	Zero Linden:	well, I can think of ways to do it and preserve the security - but... too much work
[13:20]	Zha Ewry:	So.... right now, etexture load is still in the UDP pipe?
[13:20]	Zero Linden:	more work and more traffic than just making it not cachebale
[13:20]	Zero Linden:	Zha - yes
[13:20]	Zero Linden:	the code to do textures over HTTP has been 95% completed for over a year now
[13:20]	Zha Ewry nods
[13:21]	Tao Takashi:	sounds like my projects ;-)
[13:21]	Zha Ewry:	I think that ha s been said before
[13:21]	Talarus Luan:	The last 5% must be where 95% of the pain is, then. :P
[13:21]	Zero Linden:	the probalem is that the there is a bad DOS vector in the code path that we have to fix on the server for it
[13:21]	Saijanai Kuhn:	LOL
[13:21]	Jiz Source:	YO YO
[13:21]	Zero Linden:	and we have an unexplained small percentage of failures during fetching...
[13:21]	Zha Ewry:	DOS attack?
[13:21]	Zero Linden:	Denial of Service
[13:21]	Zha Ewry:	Ouch
[13:21]	Rex Cronon:	btw, talking about images, u can no longer upload lossless images:(
[13:22]	Zero Linden:	right now, the simulator, since it mediates all the UDP messages, including textures, can
[13:22]	Stormbringer Blackflag:	you spend 95% of your time on the first 95% of the project, and then you spend 95% of your time on the last 95% of the project
[13:22]	Talarus Luan:	Yes, I didn't think you mean Disk Operating System. :P
[13:22]	Zero Linden:	basically throttle the texture requests from a given client
[13:22]	Zero Linden:	but, if we send the viewer off to ask for textures from some lovely HTTP texture server in the sky,
[13:22]	Zero Linden:	well, the HTTP server isn't really keeping track of per-viewer request rates
[13:22]	Zero Linden:	we need to have it do that in an inexpensive manner
[13:22]	Zha Ewry:	clueless, probably
[13:23]	Sae Juran:	could but dont
[13:23]	Zha Ewry:	And.. in fact.. no reason to assume it's comming from a client, is there?
[13:23]	Zero Linden:	well - yes, I'm of a like mind
[13:23]	Zero Linden:	but others are panicy
[13:24]	Squirrel Wood:	I have a 25mbit connection at hand. I would be happy if SL would make use of it. May put a higher load on the service but for a shorter time.
[13:24]	Zero Linden:	Exactly - I don't see the problem
[13:24]	Sae Juran:	cant the sim just "filter/forward" the request for that and/or security reasons? else i can download textures with firefox
[13:24]	Zha Ewry:	Well, end of day, Sae, the client isgoing to do a bog standard http get
[13:24]	Talarus Luan:	Something like mod_throttle/mod_curb?
[13:24]	Zero Linden:	So, I think we'll see some traction on this this quarter
[13:24]	Zha Ewry:	Not much of a way to control those
[13:24]	Rex Cronon:	the problem is that textures can be stole
[13:24]	Saijanai Kuhn:	thoguht most stuff was POST
[13:25]	Sae Juran:	yes, i was that thinking that secutiry is an issue too, cos if i can access bytes i can steal and upload it
[13:25]	Zha Ewry:	The stolen issue, is just an ease issue.
[13:25]	Sae Juran:	and also the point zero said
[13:25]	Squirrel Wood:	they can be stolen right here and now as well. If you know what to do.
[13:25]	Stormbringer Blackflag:	rex, they already can be
[13:25]	Zha Ewry:	All those bytes are accesible now
[13:26]	Stormbringer Blackflag:	even without http
[13:26]	Sae Juran:	the sim can evaluate from AV position to forward or not the requested texture
[13:26]	Zha Ewry:	Granted, itdoes make it a lttle easir
[13:26]	Zha Ewry:	The Sim.. sholdn't even be on the path, thoe, Sae
[13:26]	Zero Linden:	Sae - indeed - "you're already soaking in it"... (dating myself again)
[13:26]	Stormbringer Blackflag:	not by much zha. i have a bot that will download any texture
[13:26]	Talarus Luan:	I thought that was part of what sim caps were supposed to mitigate.
[13:26]	Zero Linden:	All those bytes are on your computer right now -
[13:27]	blackcrow6667 Garmes:	yeah, short of encryption, what can you od ?
[13:27]	Zero Linden:	and you can extract 'em from your graphics card with open source OpenGL code.....
[13:27]	Zero Linden:	So.....
[13:27]	Stormbringer Blackflag:	exactly, it's drm all over again
[13:27]	Sae Juran:	yes i know but why make it even easier ? lol
[13:27]	Goldie Katsu slips away to another meeting, resulting in her being here in body but not in spirit.
[13:27]	Sae Juran:	also, with the way i figured, it may work on a space-based way, with multiple request at once
[13:28]	Zha Ewry:	In terms of the web... The goal is to make the http get for a texure as flat as possible
[13:28]	Rex Cronon:	i guess the sim could say: if u r not the owner of that texture than that texture can't be used in the this sim
[13:28]	Zha Ewry:	if everyone who fetches the texture uses the same url
[13:28]	Zha Ewry:	then, and only then, do we get the best caching
[13:28]	Zero Linden:	well, actually, as the current HTTP code path for textures is constructed, you'll still have to be in-world to get 'em
[13:28]	Zero Linden:	though I think that should change longer term
[13:28]	Sae Juran:	like, if i'm here i surely need the texture used about N meters, without adding payloads for each prim
[13:29]	Zero Linden:	Yes, Zha, true enough
[13:29]	Zha Ewry:	The more you make it contexual, the more the bog standard web apliances can't help you
[13:29]	Zero Linden:	Yes -
[13:29]	Sae Juran:	well i was saying about a sort of prediction system
[13:30]	Tao Takashi:	but if the actual name of the texture is a UUID then I guess a simple scraping would not be possible anyway
[13:30]	Zha Ewry:	How are you getting it via login?
[13:30]	Zero Linden:	Sae - the viewer and simulator right now do a fair bit of computation to figure out what you can see and only send you geometry for those things
[13:30]	Zha Ewry:	(is there a re-direct)
[13:30]	Zero Linden:	and in turn the viewer only requests textures for that which it can render
[13:30]	Zero Linden:	in fact, it will be doing byte-range requests so that it only fetches the MIP levels that it needs
[13:30]	Sae Juran:	also geometry? i didnt tell anything about what u can really view
[13:31]	Zha Ewry:	The client sends the frustrum up to the sim
[13:31]	Zero Linden:	(which was one of the motivations for using JPEG2k, rather than JPEG, since it has that property)
[13:31]	Zha Ewry:	so it kknows what you can see
[13:31]	Zero Linden:	"frustrum" is one of my favorite words
[13:31]	blackcrow6667 Garmes:	lol
[13:31]	Sae Juran:	the purpose was moslty when u tp somewhere, but i guess it one of latest point in SL todo list
[13:31]	Zha Ewry:	You allways do progressive encoding, right?
[13:31]	Zha Ewry:	So you can pull just the first few layers?
[13:32]	Zero Linden:	And Richard Serra's "Torqued Ellipses", which are cone frustra, is one of my favorite sculptures
[13:32]	Zero Linden:	Zha, yes
[13:33]	Zha Ewry:	Zero. We were looking at the long queue
[13:33]	Zero Linden:	I believe someone here figured out that you can almost always get the first MIP lavel or two in the first 1k
[13:33]	Zha Ewry:	Is there anything that currenttly shows how that's being done
[13:33]	Saijanai Kuhn:	long-poll on the queue...
[13:33]	Zero Linden:	On the sim side?
[13:34]	Zha Ewry:	and. for agent split, are you going to both split and move things from UDP to caps as you go?
[13:34]	Zha Ewry:	or move to caps, first, then migrate them capability?
[13:34]	Talarus Luan:	Probably a gimme(<textureuuid>,<numberofbytes>) message of some kind.
[13:35]	Zha Ewry is tying to sort out the first steps in stteing up to follow along with that in OpenSim land
[13:35]	Squirrel Wood:	gimme <uuid>,<mip-level> ?
[13:36]	Zero Linden:	Sq.: no, we do byte range fetches from a single URL that names the whole texture
[13:36]	Zha Ewry:	Ideally, the sim sends down the bytezone markers, I guess
[13:36]	Zero Linden:	this is better for caching
[13:36]	Zha Ewry:	and then you ask for them
[13:36]	Zero Linden:	Zha - no real need, and that requires the sims to read the textures
[13:36]	Talarus Luan:	Well, if there is a directory in the jpeg2k file that is preloaded, that would work, too, I guess.
[13:36]	Zero Linden:	the HUGE win for HTTP texture change isn't really the move of textures from UDP to TCP (thought that is a win of sorts)
[13:37]	Zha Ewry:	Well, read them once, and store the metadata, but yeah
[13:37]	Zero Linden:	it is that the simulator no longer has to have the textures flow thourgh them at all
[13:37]	Talarus Luan:	It is to get it off the sims' back
[13:37]	Zha Ewry:	right
[13:37]	Zha Ewry:	Ok. So.. the sim sends down the UUIDs
[13:37]	blackcrow6667 Garmes:	so a little loss moving to TCP but a great gain that way
[13:37]	Zha Ewry:	the client hopefully looks in the cache
[13:37]	Tao Takashi:	maybe it should send whole URLs so it can also be an external texture
[13:38]	Zero Linden:	actually, we measure, despite the TCP and HTTP overheads, a net gain on the network traffic side
[13:38]	Zha Ewry:	and then, needs to decide how much to get
[13:38]	Zero Linden:	!
[13:38]	Zha Ewry:	Does it double pump?
[13:38]	Zha Ewry:	(get the first bit, then ask for the byte range?)
[13:38]	Zero Linden:	Zha - yes, the texture pipeline in the viewer I belive always asks for the first 1k first
[13:38]	Zha Ewry goes hmmmmm
[13:39]	Zero Linden:	this is good as it gets the squid cache on our side to fetch the whole texture locally
[13:39]	Zha Ewry nods
[13:39]	Zero Linden:	(squid, on seeing a byte-range request, requests the whole thing and then serves the range)
[13:39]	Zha Ewry:	That can come out of a network edge cache too, yes?
[13:39]	Zha Ewry:	or. is it too deeply hidden?
[13:39]	Zero Linden:	So that by the time the viewer asks for the next byte range, the whole texture is in the squid on the machine where the viewer is talking
[13:40]	Tao Takashi:	squid is per sim I guess?
[13:40]	Zero Linden:	Zha - I think in this first iteration, it will not be externally cacheable
[13:40]	Zha Ewry:	ahhh
[13:40]	Zha Ewry nods
[13:40]	Talarus Luan:	No, there is a squid for a group of sims, I believe.
[13:40]	Zha Ewry:	one per four, I think
[13:41]	Zha Ewry:	three?
[13:41]	Talarus Luan:	Well, servers, really, not sims
[13:41]	Zha Ewry mutters
[13:41]	Zero Linden:	wel, there is one squid per sim host
[13:41]	Zero Linden:	sim hosts usually have four regions on 'em
[13:41]	Zha Ewry:	but sim hosts hold mutiple regions, yes?
[13:41]	Zero Linden:	though can have 16 void regions
[13:41]	Talarus Luan:	So you don't do any other caching in the middle for larger groups of servers?
[13:42]	Tao Takashi:	ok
[13:42]	Zha Ewry:	Well, Talarus, at the moment, its all in the UDP pipe, and not cachable, I expect
[13:43]	Zha Ewry:	The sims could, I suppose
[13:43]	Sae Juran:	sorry, then u will have 1 server for 95% of traffic of 62K clients?
[13:43]	Zha Ewry:	No
[13:43]	Talarus Luan:	Well, on the sim->client end, yes, but not on the sim->asset server end
[13:43]	Zha Ewry:	1 squid per four regions
[13:43]	Talarus Luan:	squid is a http proxy
[13:44]	blackcrow6667 Garmes:	im curious, why was image resizing in the viewer removed ?
[13:44]	Sae Juran:	taliking about texture using http request, what about texture server
[13:44]	Saijanai Kuhn:	not relevant to UDP ?
[13:44]	Zero Linden:	right now we have: [Asset Cluster (internal caching & redudancy)] -> Sim Host's Squid -> Sim process (internal cache) -> (UDP) -> Viewer
[13:44]	Zero Linden:	New mechanism has:
[13:44]	Zha Ewry:	There is http level caching of textures, between the sims and the asset cluster
[13:44]	Tao Takashi:	so internally textures are fetched via HTTP?
[13:44]	Zero Linden:	[Asset Cluster (internal caching & redudancy)] -> Sim Host's Squid -> Sim Host's Backbone -> (TCP & HTTP) -> Viewer
[13:45]	Talarus Luan:	Ouch.. 5000 servers hitting the asset cluster directly.
[13:45]	Zero Linden:	Yes, internally the asset store is just a large HTTP store
[13:45]	Sae Juran:	got it
[13:45]	Zha Ewry:	A *VERY* large HTTP store
[13:45]	Squirrel Wood:	if you upload a 1024x1023 texture, why is it downsized to 1024x512?
[13:45]	Zero Linden:	Remember, the asset cluster has many edge connections and is internally redudant
[13:45]	Talarus Luan:	truncation
[13:45]	Kurt Stringer:	1
[13:45]	Saijanai Kuhn:	rounded down to nearest power of 2
[13:46]	Zero Linden:	Sq - all textures must have dimensions of pwers of 2 (common OpenGL requirement)
[13:46]	Sae Juran:	as any copression requires squrrel
[13:46]	Squirrel Wood:	nearest power of 2 would be 1024 in this case :p
[13:46]	Sae Juran:	lower indeed :P
[13:46]	Talarus Luan:	Though rounding would probably be better
[13:46]	Zero Linden:	if you upload a non power of two, we must choose something - and I'm pretty sure no matter how we tuned it, it would be wrong for some class of users
[13:47]	Zero Linden:	SO - rule is do your own resizing to powers of two
[13:47]	blackcrow6667 Garmes:	so might as well trim the size :)
[13:47]	Sae Juran:	image compression algothims work with some limitation and works *good* in some cases, thats why also
[13:47]	Zero Linden:	If you are on a mac: check out the command line tool "sips" - it is part of OS X and very good at doing this sort of thing with high fidelity
[13:47]	Squirrel Wood:	I usually do size my textures properly. Just thought it to be odd to round 1023 *down* to 512 when 1024 is clearly the *nearest* power of 2
[13:48]	Zero Linden:	in OS X 10.5, Preview and Automater can do it easily too ( all part of OS X)
[13:48]	Talarus Luan:	Yep. I would agree
[13:48]	Stormbringer Blackflag:	heh zero i didn't know about sips, i just installed imagemagick like an hour ago
[13:48]	Arawn Spitteler:	(integer) .99999=0
[13:48]	Sae Juran:	the only point of this can be to add a warning on client ....
[13:48]	Squirrel Wood:	yes. yes. If you make 0 just big enough it is almost as big as a teensy tiny itty little bit of 1 :p
[13:49]	blackcrow6667 Garmes:	heh
[13:49]	Sae Juran:	zero, its not really in topic, but would always ask something about distributed computing in SL, on high request servers, like asset, u using it in some ways ?
[13:49]	Gribbley Spyker:	hello all
[13:50]	Rex Cronon:	hi gribbley
[13:50]	blackcrow6667 Garmes:	squirrel, it would be more in their interests to shave the texture size anyway they can so
[13:51]	Sae Juran:	(i mean as a distributed computing based database, basically)
[13:51]	Talarus Luan:	gah.. *kills spammy attachment creators* :-/
[13:52]	Arawn Spitteler can't see Zero
[13:52]	blackcrow6667 Garmes:	he disappeared ..
[13:52]	Sae Juran:	me neither
[13:52]	Talarus Luan:	Keeerashed
[13:52]	Sae Juran:	hey rob rob rob eheheheh
[13:52]	Talarus Luan:	Dogpile on Rob instead!
[13:52]	Rex Cronon:	zero crash?
[13:52]	Zero Linden:	he just got back online
[13:52]	Sae Juran:	:)
[13:52]	Arawn Spitteler wonders of the significance of having Zero Vision of Zero
[13:52]	Sae Juran:	wb 0
[13:52]	Goldie Katsu:	Good pipes doesn't change the client behavior.
[13:52]	Zero Linden:	Fie!
[13:52]	Goldie Katsu:	Wb 0
[13:53]	Zero Linden:	No, good pipes in fact might just tickle the viewer more.... who knows?!?!?!
[13:53]	Talarus Luan:	nor the simulator. :-/
[13:53]	Rex Cronon:	r u using windlight, zero?
[13:53]	Sae Juran:	zero, its not really in topic, but would always ask something about distributed computing in SL, on high request servers, like asset, u using it in some ways ? (i mean as a distributed computing based database, basically)
[13:54]	Saijanai Kuhn:	Sae, that kind of thing couldbe supported client side, but not something the lindens wouldwant to get into It hink
[13:54]	Zero Linden:	Sae - I'm not sure what you mean exactly - the asset server does no computation - just document serving
[13:54]	Zero Linden:	Essentially, the whole grid is one giant distributed server
[13:54]	Zero Linden:	er, distributed computation
[13:54]	Sae Juran:	yes yes
[13:54]	Talarus Luan:	There is nothing in SL that needs to be a Beowulf cluster. :P
[13:55]	Zero Linden:	it is all a matter of at what level of grain you are looking
[13:55]	Sae Juran:	i was talking about database/archive
[13:55]	Sae Juran:	well, google's BigTable is a good sample
[13:55]	Zero Linden:	The database is nothing special - mysql
[13:55]	Zero Linden:	with slaves
[13:55]	Sae Juran:	y maybe current request traffic doesnt require that
[13:56]	blackcrow6667 Garmes:	so many people hate MySQL ..not sure why exactly :P
[13:56]	Sae Juran:	love it
[13:56]	Talarus Luan:	I loves it. :)
[13:56]	Talarus Luan hugs his MySQL servers.
[13:56]	blackcrow6667 Garmes:	try going into #SQL on EFNet and watch how fast you get banned :D
[13:56]	Zero Linden:	well, relational databases do well when the read load exceeds the write load by a large factor
[13:56]	Zero Linden:	games and SL both have the write load much closer to the read load
[13:57]	Zero Linden:	Most web based applications have the read load high
[13:57]	Zero Linden:	so, databases work well there
[13:58]	Talarus Luan:	That all comes down to tuning different databases for handling different sectors of your data load.
[13:58]	Sae Juran:	about database, i got excited reading the google bigtable whitepaper
[13:59]	Talarus Luan:	Lots of static content can be tuned well for high read/low write load, and dynamic data can be on a differently tuned database for more balanced read/write
[13:59]	Talarus Luan:	There's no one configuration for all
[13:59]	Tara5 Oh:	jus did an interview with Grady Booch and he said AWG was the happening thing in the world of virtual world architecture design!
[13:59]	Talarus Luan:	O.o
[14:00]	Zero Linden:	heh - I spoke with him this Fall - he's a big fan of SL
[14:00]	Anamolie Poitier:	have you seen the ms seadragon system yet? it handles large image databases with spacial reletivity. they made a small vr like sl out of photos from flickr and their system automaticaly peiced them into a 3d mesh
[14:01]	Tara5 Oh:	the decisions made by AWG will be some of the most important re the future of 3Dplatforms for software design!!!
[14:01]	Zero Linden:	Friends - alas, I needs must go
[14:01]	Sae Juran:	y but requiring TONS of clocks cycles and coffee
[14:01]	Zero Linden:	thanks all
[14:01]	Jason Swain:	Thank you for a very interesting Office Hour Zero. Have a good day ^^
[14:01]	Tara5 Oh:	yes he is a BIG fan
[14:01]	Rex Cronon:	bye zero
[14:01]	Sae Juran:	bye 0, good work
[14:01]	Squirrel Wood:	Have fun Zero :)
[14:01]	Jiz Source:	thanks zero
[14:01]	Stormbringer Blackflag:	thank you!
[14:01]	Tara5 Oh:	bye zero!
[14:01]	blackcrow6667 Garmes:	I have a question for those who are remaining .. why did SL go open source in the first place?
[14:02]	Sae Juran:	to reduce bugs :P ?
[14:02]	Zero Linden:	I guess I can answer that before I go
[14:02]	blackcrow6667 Garmes:	at the cost of aiding their compedators?
[14:02]	Rex Cronon:	what the seadragon makes looks like a collection of vertices, i haven't seen any polygons
[14:02]	Talarus Luan:	Because SL relies on a lot of FOSS code to begin with, and they saw the valur in a larger collaborative development audience.
[14:02]	blackcrow6667 Garmes:	*competitors
[14:02]	Sae Juran is all ears
[14:02]	Talarus Luan:	Competition is healthy. Helping your competitors can ultimately help you.
[14:02]	Jiz Source:	no open source allows improves and strives to make a standard across all platforms...
[14:03]	Squirrel Wood:	/ao on
[14:03]	Zero Linden:	we did it for a lot of reasons, but one big reason is to help establish standards in virtual worlds....
[14:03]	Jiz Source:	yep bingo
[14:03]	Arawn Spitteler:	Linden Labs hires a Quarter Thousand highly imaginative people, requiring 50,000 people to debug the result
[14:03]	Sae Juran:	right
[14:04]	Zero Linden:	a lot of the bugfixing benefits are nice, but are secondary. we realized that we just couldn't build it all alone
[14:04]	Sae Juran:	i wonder if marketing manager adreed with that
[14:04]	Sae Juran:	*agreed
[14:04]	blackcrow6667 Garmes:	rob, if you could've done it alone ..would you have still made it open source ?
[14:05]	Zero Linden:	hmmm....that's probably too hypothetical to answer
[14:05]	blackcrow6667 Garmes:	it relates to your business plan i gather :)
[14:05]	Zero Linden:	it's hard to imagine being in a situation where we could hire as many people as it would take to do it right all by ourselves
[14:05]	Talarus Luan:	Excuse you, Maltos. :)
[14:05]	Sae Juran:	y in fact, they earn from ppl not for selling client
[14:05]	Arawn Spitteler seems to recall the occassional hiring of new marketing managers: I see LL deviding eventually into several functions, such as Grid Maintanence, and Simulator Services, in seperate corporations.
[14:06]	Maltos Sosa:	opps
[14:06]	Kurt Stringer:	bye all
[14:06]	Zero Linden:	I've got someone waiting for me on the phone, so I should get going
[14:06]	Rex Cronon:	bye kurt
[14:06]	blackcrow6667 Garmes:	thanks for answering that rob :)
[14:06]	Jason Swain:	See you Rob, thanks ^^