User:Zero Linden/Office Hours/2008 July 10

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  • [8:29] Wyn Galbraith: And party line phone systems.
  • [8:30] Prospero Linden: w00t! Party!
  • [8:30] Prospero Linden: Oh, not that kind of party. Never mind.
  • [8:30] Wyn Galbraith: though you did learn lots about the neighborhood listening on a party line.
  • [8:30] Lillie Yifu: Can we skip the whole "whe I learned to program we used stone knives to write data" par tof this discussion?
  • [8:30] Wyn Galbraith: LOL Tegg
  • [8:31] Tegg Bode: I made a buch of signs in case local chat goes down
  • [8:31] FWord Utorid: PRESS PLAY ON TAPE
  • [8:31] Prospero Linden: Stone knives and bearskins
  • [8:31] Saijanai Kuhn: once watched two comuter repairmen repair a computer using a sledge hammer a carjack and a blowtorch...
  • [8:31] Wyn Galbraith: remembers punching paper tape.
  • [8:31] Prospero Linden: Saijanai : awesome!
  • [8:31] FWord Utorid: i just bought a commodore 64 on ebay
  • [8:31] Tegg Bode: A sign for noobs :)
  • [8:31] Saijanai Kuhn: someone put a forlift through the side
  • [8:31] FWord Utorid: i might make it connect to the grid through a proxy
  • [8:31] Saijanai Kuhn: forklift
  • [8:32] Prospero Linden: FWord : Josh Linden did something like that with an Apple ][
  • [8:32] FWord Utorid: sweet
  • [8:32] Ayumi Cassini: hi everyone
  • [8:32] Rex Cronon: hello everybody
  • [8:32] AO_TESTER: .Standing:
  • [8:32] AO_TESTER: Standing.Standing:
  • [8:32] AO_TESTER: Standing.Standing:
  • [8:32] AO_TESTER: Standing.Walking:
  • [8:32] AO_TESTER: Walking.Standing:
  • [8:32] AO_TESTER: Standing.Standing:
  • [8:32] Cane Janick: hey
  • [8:32] AO_TESTER: ao: is 0
  • [8:32] Prospero Linden: I read somewhere that there was ag roup that was going to have a C64 LAN party
  • [8:32] JenzZa Misfit: back ... hi hi everyone ! Prospero ! woot !
  • [8:32] dibbs Dovgal: Greetings
  • [8:32] Tegg Bode: Another sign for noons with prims
  • [8:32] Wyn Galbraith: I have an old Atari in storage somewhere
  • [8:32] FWord Utorid: they have gone way beyond anything i thought you could do with the commodore, that's for sure.
  • [8:33] joao Mastroianni: hello:))
  • [8:33] JenzZa Misfit: I have a Coleco " Adam " ..lol
  • [8:33] Saijanai Kuhn: 33 avies, spamaage only of technical grouops
  • [8:33] Prospero Linden: Tess!!!!
  • [8:33] Tess Linden: Good morning
  • [8:33] Arcadia Jonson: o-)
  • [8:33] Tegg Bode: A sign for when Teleport is down
  • [8:33] Carlos Roundel: ops
  • [8:33] Carlos Roundel:  :))
  • [8:33] Saijanai Kuhn: konich ha
  • [8:33] Tara5 Oh: Good morning!
  • [8:33] Saijanai Kuhn: wa
  • [8:33] Carlos Roundel: hello
  • [8:33] Carlos Roundel:  :))
  • [8:34] Tess Linden: I'll be hosting Zero's office hours today, and the topic will be "The Interoperable Experience" and how that will change as we move forward with the Beta
  • [8:34] Dahlia Trimble: Hi
  • [8:34] Xugu Madison: I'm quietly wondering if making the SL client system the same one that runs teh OpenSim server was a good idea. Think things may be a little slow for people here :)
  • [8:34] FWord Utorid: oh crap, ibm is here, everyone hide.
  • [8:34] Tegg Bode: lol
  • [8:35] Prospero Linden: hides in plain sight
  • [8:35] Zha Ewry: Well, everyone has hidden all the chairs under thier aves
  • [8:35] Tess Linden: I would like to brainstorm how the Beta will play out. First explain what the current experience is, relate that back to the original design and talk about possible scenarios for getting from here to there
  • [8:36] Carolie Watanabe: sorry I was late
  • [8:36] FWord Utorid: wonders 'beta of what exactly'
  • [8:36] Zha Ewry: blinks as the notices just how tall Prospera is when he's right behind her
  • [8:36] Prospero Linden: Yeah, I had an avie makeover bya resident after the concierge party, and got huge.
  • [8:36] Tess Linden: Does anyone else have any pressing topics they would like to also discuss?
  • [8:37] Tegg Bode: Lol It's to help hold the taller griefers off the ground and change lightbulbs :)
  • [8:37] BigMike Bukowski: looks Wow an avatar that almost as tall as me.
  • [8:37] Xugu Madison: Generally, how do we setup OGP? :)
  • [8:37] Saijanai Kuhn: Just that you and Beyers Sellers or Jenz should talk about a weekly fireside Linden Chat with Metanommics
  • [8:38] Zero Linden: hello all!
  • [8:38] Prospero Linden: Zero!!!
  • [8:38] Saijanai Kuhn: Zero???
  • [8:38] Dream Land: Hi zero. :)
  • [8:38] Bjorlyn Loon: Hello Zero.
  • [8:38] BigMike Bukowski: Hello, Zero.
  • [8:38] Rex Cronon: hello zero
  • [8:38] Tess Linden: Xugu, the Beta official begins end of July and we are working on getting all that information out to you
  • [8:38] Tess Linden: officially*
  • [8:38] JenzZa Misfit: hey Zero ! 00000000
  • [8:38] Harleen Gretzky: Hi Zero
  • [8:39] Xugu Madison: Tess, fantastic
  • [8:39] Prospero Linden: Which part of Aditi is going to be hooked into the official beta? Specific regions, a specific channel, or all of it? (And, TEss, of course, I'm more than willing to help with that, as one of the Masters of Aditi...)
  • [8:39] Tess Linden: Hi Zero! You're here
  • [8:39] dudzezcooly Abruzzo: What is this place?
  • [8:39] FWord Utorid: by the power of grayskull, he is he-man
  • [8:39] Zero Linden: yikes - what a crowd!
  • [8:39] dudzezcooly Abruzzo: XLR
  • [8:39] dudzezcooly Abruzzo: What is this place?
  • [8:40] Tess Linden: Prospero: the Aditi agent domain will be hooked up to the Beta but we have not worked out what regions we want on aditi. WOuld be good to check in with Whump on that
  • [8:40] Zero Linden: Yes, Tess - I'm back from vacation and in the office (in Mtn. View) - but as the kids got up at 4:30am (which was reasonable East Coast time...)
  • [8:40] BigMike Bukowski: Saij only spammed the Tech groups today :) So it's big, but not insane
  • [8:40] Harleen Gretzky: It is Zero Linden's Office Hour
  • [8:40] Dahlia Trimble: off/1 laser
  • [8:40] Tara5 Oh: Interoperability is the happenin tihing
  • [8:40] Carolie Watanabe: the Linden Village
  • [8:40] Zero Linden: I'm a bit a little zonked -
  • [8:40] FWord Utorid: ok so there is 'ogp' the open grid protocol and it is going to be part of opensim, an dthere's some sort of certificate one will need to be able to be 'trusted'?
  • [8:41] Tess Linden: Okay - so first, I'd like to describe what is the current "Interoperable Experience" that you will find in the Beta
  • [8:41] Cane Janick: pls
  • [8:41] Tess Linden: Second Life accounts are periodically refreshed on the Beta to match what's on Agni
  • [8:41] Tess Linden: this is already true today
  • [8:42] Tess Linden: For the Beta, you will have a special viewer that logs you into aditi's agent domain
  • [8:43] Tess Linden: Your avatar is pulled from the Aditi grid
  • [8:44] Dahlia Trimble: pulled?
  • [8:44] Tess Linden: When you land in an aditi region, you will experience the same thing today, but when you land in an external region not on the Aditi grid, there will be key features missing because the agent domain is only capable of "login" and "teleport"
  • [8:45] Tess Linden: Dahlia: it is derezed or retrieved from the aditi grid
  • [8:45] Tess Linden: or aditi agent domain
  • [8:45] FWord Utorid: it has a suffix on the last name when you are in an ogp grid?
  • [8:45] FWord Utorid: to prevent collisions?
  • [8:46] Tess Linden: yes, currently _EXTERNAL is tacked on to the end of your name in the OpenSim implementation, but not in the Second Life one
  • [8:46] Tess Linden: we're still working out how that should work
  • [8:46] Carolie Watanabe: will you have more than the usual number of regions on this new version of the Aditi beta grid?
  • [8:46] Dahlia Trimble: how about UUID?
  • [8:46] Tess Linden: Carolie: we don't know yet, that is to be decided
  • [8:47] Prospero Linden: We won't be able to ahve a *lot* more regions.
  • [8:47] Tegg Bode: Yes you could easily find someone in another grid has your name :)
  • [8:47] Prospero Linden: Not an order of magnitude more, for instance.
  • [8:47] Xugu Madison: Dahlia, UUIDs are probabilistically unique, so it shouldn't be an issue
  • [8:47] Tess Linden: Dahlia: there is nothing currently in place that says an Aditi agent_id wont collide with an external grid's agent_id
  • [8:47] Carolie Watanabe: Than ks Tess & propsero
  • [8:47] dibbs Dovgal: Since there are what 120 trillion trillion of them?
  • [8:47] Carolie Watanabe: nodes... "Thanks"
  • [8:47] Xugu Madison: dibbs, I didn't count, but sounds likely :)
  • [8:47] Dahlia Trimble: I mean will they be consistent for external use>
  • [8:48] Prospero Linden: Long -term, though, UUID won't be sufficient, since it doesn't encode "from which agent domain does this agent come".
  • [8:48] Tess Linden: Now, going back to review the original design of Agent/Region domains, there are several outstanding features of the agent domain that might be useful
  • [8:48] Harleen Gretzky: If external grids agree not to use the 4xxx that SL uses then they will not collide
  • [8:48] Zero Linden: while one doesn't need to worry about UUIDs colliding via grids that are generating UUIDs correctly... one does need to be worryied about either faulty UUID implementations (seen it!) or malicious duplication of UUIDs
  • [8:49] Zero Linden: Harleen - the UUID spec specifies the format and content of UUIDs - we can't "apportion it"
  • [8:49] Zero Linden: And, no, we don't use just 4xxx UUIDs for avatars
  • [8:49] Zha Ewry: its not the bad luck, its the malice, which concerns, especially since UUIDs of Aves are very public
  • [8:50] Wolt Amat: Sounds like an action item forthe OGP.
  • [8:50] dibbs Dovgal: Obviously as soon as the universe goes open, security issues become more complex by orders of magnitude.
  • [8:50] FWord Utorid: off tangent but on topic, did zha send in the opensim stuffs so i can upgrade mine and be compatible with ogp?
  • [8:50] Zero Linden: THis does bring up a big issue - we clearly will need some form of global agreement (whether implemented via distributed process or not) for avatar UUIDs
  • [8:50] Zero Linden: does the world want that for names as well?
  • [8:50] Zha Ewry: The patch is on Mantis, fword
  • [8:51] Whump Linden: Yes, FWord, a patch has been contributed.
  • [8:51] FWord Utorid: thanks, zha. :)
  • [8:51] Whump Linden: [1]
  • [8:51] Zha Ewry: and. it's improbable that we'll manage a single name spece/uuid space, over the long haul
  • [8:51] Prospero Linden: ...just dont let ICANN control last names :)
  • [8:51] dibbs Dovgal: THere may need to be an extra field that is tagged to determine "native sim" origination.
  • [8:52] Zha Ewry: Also, look for patch updates, periodically, because that's insnaely crufty
  • [8:52] Wolt Amat: Is there an OGP action list somewhere?
  • [8:52] Tegg Bode: I suggest we change our accounts to work from UUID's and our name just becomes a user setable tag, would be great for roleplayers, but creation of items would link to UUID of course
  • [8:52] FWord Utorid: wait, did someone at LL say not to let another organization control last names
  • [8:52] FWord Utorid: gasps
  • [8:53] Carolie Watanabe: and lots of extrenal databases use avi namesa as the key, assuming they were fairly persistent.
  • [8:53] Zero Linden: Fword?
  • [8:53] Guen Shan: hi
  • [8:53] FWord Utorid: zero, i was teasing, because well, i can't have any last name I want here... also... :P is it a cr1m3 to register as the last name Linden on an opensim :O
  • [8:54] Zero Linden: well- even if names change- and objects are key'ed to avatars' UUIDs -- one still has the issue of what name do you display in the "created by" and "owened by" boxes?
  • [8:54] Zero Linden: the current name? the name at the time of creation/ownership?
  • [8:54] Zha Ewry: nods
  • [8:54] Prospero Linden: Tess : where is the central "information source" (wiki page, whatever) about the Beta : getting into it, getting software, etc.?
  • [8:54] Sophie Zhu: just load it dynamicly from the key.
  • [8:54] Zha Ewry: And it only gets worse, if the UUID is keyed to several names, in several contexts. How do you even know whch one to use?
  • [8:54] Saijanai Kuhn: [2]
  • [8:55] Prospero Linden: Perhaps we need a uniqe "email-address-like" spec that is more human readable than UUID but not necessarily the displayed name you want to use.
  • [8:55] FWord Utorid: because what if someone on their opensim registered as a Linden, and then you had the two way thing going...
  • [8:55] Prospero Linden: Saijanai : thanks.
  • [8:55] Ann Otoole: most SL noteworthy's names are already registered in the google kiddie room thing whether those avatars have really registered or not so avatar naming will become similar to trademarking in the future.
  • [8:55] Zha Ewry: I'm currently on a "no central singletons" kick.. it's really important long term topic
  • [8:55] Lillie Yifu: Easier said than done
  • [8:55] Zero Linden: Fword - I believe that the limitation of registering last name "Linden" on other opensim based grids has been totally the choice of those grid operators - I'm pretty certain we didn't ask them to do that
  • [8:55] Tegg Bode: Well I suspect it would be good for the 3or4 big players in opensim/and SL™ to sort some standards out quick before it becomes a 5company beauracracy
  • [8:55] Siddhartha Fonda: whasts the use cas for how a uuid woul be keyed to several names?
  • [8:55] Zero Linden: (And in one grid, I am a "Linden"!)
  • [8:55] Wolt Amat: Maybe OpenSim needs to make a broker service?
  • [8:56] Dahlia Trimble: maybe we could choose new names when we teleport to other grids?
  • [8:56] FWord Utorid: I am just curious about that because it seems to me it could represent a security misrepresentation issue
  • [8:56] Zero Linden: So - Zha - the internet as a whole gets by with "no central singletons" by and large by relying on one major central singleton: DNS 2nd level domains
  • [8:56] Prospero Linden: It's certainly a great way for "social engineering" -- adopt a name that is "somebody else" and masquerade as them.
  • [8:56] Zha Ewry: I'm leaninf to the "name/Authentication source" model
  • [8:56] Xugu Madison: Creating users with Linden/Reuters/IBM as a last name would just be asking for chaos, as an OpenSIm grid operator
  • [8:56] Carolie Watanabe: and cybersquatting law wd apply as well
  • [8:56] Zha Ewry: and, es, it does, becuae DNS is the one root
  • [8:56] Sierra Janus: That brings on the issue of what trust model of use then
  • [8:57] FWord Utorid: especially if it is seamless transport from one grid to another
  • [8:57] Zero Linden: I think, in this one case for an open grid, avatar identity might need to also rely on a singleton
  • [8:57] Ann Otoole: .
  • [8:57] Lillie Yifu: It is already easy to just say "oh she's my alt." now.
  • [8:57] FWord Utorid: lillie yifu is my alt.
  • [8:57] Prospero Linden: Zero Linden is my alt.
  • [8:57] Prospero Linden: As is Zha Ewry.
  • [8:57] Ann Otoole: not just security isses fword. a central registry of accounts and assets will be required.
  • [8:57] Tess Linden: Initially Avatars from the Aditi Beta grid will "rez" into OGP enabled grids, but what will happen when this gets pushed to Live and you can actually use your Second Life avatars to go to OGP enabled grids?
  • [8:57] Saijanai Kuhn: I'm my own alt, Pa
  • [8:57] FWord Utorid: all of you are my bots running on pandora
  • [8:57] Prospero Linden: (stuck typing)
  • [8:58] Zero Linden: but as someone pointed out, DNS probably isn't the right vechicle for peronsal avatars
  • [8:58] Saijanai Kuhn: I swear that it's so
  • [8:58] Zero Linden: All of you are *my* bots running on "Relativity-Quantum-Physics-1.0"
  • [8:58] Prospero Linden: Why not DNS to identify agent domains, however?
  • [8:58] j3rry Paine: no, me. really.
  • [8:58] Zha Ewry: So.. the way DNS is couple to the web is that we know that "parts" of the name space are delegated to other authorries,
  • [8:58] FWord Utorid: our butts are touching.
  • [8:58] Zero Linden: Well- it is like phone number portability ---
  • [8:59] Tegg Bode: With security issues I think Verification is going to become very important that grid owners know exactly who is behind each avatar.
  • [8:59] Wolt Amat: The protocol will need a tier model - some sims might be open, others require an additional name authentication, like SL today with age validation.
  • [8:59] Zero Linden: do you really want to be "Joe Cool @ GoDaddyAvatars.com"?
  • [8:59] Zero Linden: for ever
  • [8:59] Zero Linden:  ?
  • [8:59] Guen Shan: *mews*
  • [8:59] Ann Otoole: retch
  • [8:59] Zero Linden: Exactly
  • [8:59] Zha Ewry: No.. but. I think I can't avouid being "Zha Ewry, vouched for by LindenLab's Agni server" or
  • [8:59] Xugu Madison: I dunno, I have a couple of .me.uk domains....
  • [8:59] pling Kirax: avoid?
  • [8:59] Ann Otoole: nothing like a little DNS cache poison to spoil a grid eh?
  • [8:59] Zha Ewry: "Zha Ewry, authentciaed by the google OpenId server"
  • [8:59] Wyn Galbraith: Wow, great crash
  • [9:00] Prospero Linden: Right -- you don't have to *display* all of it, but there will be some of it in there somewhere.
  • [9:00] Amethyst Collar: (slim): Touched.
  • [9:00] Wolt Amat: Or if you will have a conflict, be given a choice - don't enter or add a suffix.
  • [9:00] Zero Linden: Xugu - just don't think building a system that requres 2 billion users to register vanity domain names will work!
  • [9:00] Multi Gadget: v1.54.2 by Timeless Prototype
  • [9:00] Couples MultiAnimator: v2e whispers: * Abranimations Couples Animator Ready...
  • [9:00] Torrid: Chat: me your secret key on channel 42 - e.g. /42 1234
  • [9:00] Tess Linden: so theres gotta be someway to say "I'm Tess Linden@AditiBetaGrid"
  • [9:00] Xugu Madison: Zero, I've got an idea. Vanity IPv6 addresses :)
  • [9:00] Scharpe Fhang: Zero - it works now - it's called DNS
  • [9:00] Saijanai Kuhn: unicode vanity names...
  • [9:00] Zero Linden: Love the security system in the Torrid -
  • [9:01] Monk Zymurgy: *mews*
  • [9:01] Zero Linden: Hope everybody chat'd it!
  • [9:01] Torrid Luna: suwwy^^
  • [9:01] j3rry Paine: pgp, anyone?
  • [9:01] Ann Otoole: i agree. i like my persona being tied prime to Secondlife. All other grids will be secondary for me.
  • [9:01] pling Kirax: of course
  • [9:01] Guen Shan: *mews*
  • [9:01] FWord Utorid: zero, i invented Relativity-Quantum-Physics-(Negative)1.0 so I could go back in time and uninvent your version
  • [9:01] Zero Linden: True - Saijanai - then there's the Unicode issue
  • [9:01] Lillie Yifu: what about giving every avatar a mac address?
  • [9:01] Wolt Amat: Non-tech astute users DNS won't help, without a broker, then you're back to the singleton concept.
  • [9:01] Sierra Janus: These issues seem very similiar to the issues dealt with OpenID, what can we learn from that?
  • [9:01] Zero Linden: Well, that is essentailly what the UUID does
  • [9:01] FWord Utorid: wut... a mac address, that is like a uuid...
  • [9:02] Prospero Linden: Lillie : that's dangerous becaue MAC addresses are tied to hardware, and people change their hardware a lot.
  • [9:02] Xugu Madison: I'm going to be really complicated, and point out that me in a work context and me in a non-work context I'd like to keep separate
  • [9:02] Zero Linden: and if you're going to have a central auth hand out mac address blocks....
  • [9:02] dibbs Dovgal: Yes you will want to be able to log on as an avatar from any hardware platform.
  • [9:02] Sierra Janus: Don't forget MAC Addresses can be forged also
  • [9:02] pling Kirax: exactly prospero
  • [9:02] Lillie Yifu: I'm saying treat every avatar account as if it were a hardware device.
  • [9:02] Lillie Yifu: And had a mac address assigned, the way people who make modems and so on assign mac adresses to their boxes.
  • [9:02] Prospero Linden: WEll, OK, that's what UUID is already, as others said :)
  • [9:03] Zero Linden: Xugu - and everyone - let's be REALLY CLEAR - nothing about developing a system that lets you keep a single identity, long term, as you, for use in many contexts will REQUIRE you to do so
  • [9:03] Wolt Amat: This is a way bigger issue than just virtual worlds.
  • [9:03] Zero Linden: You can always have two of 'em!
  • [9:03] Ann Otoole: tokens seems like it can be exploited just like 100% of all schemes thought up. Why not pick a logical scheme to alpha with and over time figure out the most optimal plug in solution for this. Still quite early.
  • [9:03] Wolt Amat: And it is being addressed in many venues.
  • [9:03] FWord Utorid: zero: when will we get two headed meshes?
  • [9:03] Lillie Yifu: But there isn't an authority for managing UUIDs across grids
  • [9:03] Xugu Madison: Zero, excellent :) Wasn't too worried, mostly figured I'd make sure it was thought about early on
  • [9:03] j3rry Paine: "The intent of UUIDs is to enable distributed systems to uniquely identify information without significant central coordination."
  • [9:04] FWord Utorid: ok. so by tomorrow we will have the new OGP and we will be able to increase sim dilation to 2.0
  • [9:04] Zero Linden: j3rry - right, but it only works among cooperative parties
  • [9:04] j3rry Paine: partie!
  • [9:04] Wolt Amat: A single central entity would not work.
  • [9:04] Zero Linden: (see the notes on faulty implementations and malicous parties above)
  • [9:04] XLR8RRICK Hudson: but we could all have an index like a Passport and wear it or part of it
  • [9:04] dibbs Dovgal: MAC address domain space is much smaller than UUID.
  • [9:04] Ann Otoole: PGP keys?
  • [9:05] Zero Linden: Yes, we could: "I'm Zarf Vantongerloo 3" --- "I'm Jim Pak 88593"
  • [9:05] Wolt Amat: Maybe users can choose aux names in case of conflict.
  • [9:05] pling Kirax:  :(mac
  • [9:05] Zero Linden: (the later being a rather popular Korean name)
  • [9:05] j3rry Paine: i want to got to a key signing partie!
  • [9:05] Lillie Yifu: but we don't need a unique address for every prim
  • [9:05] Zero Linden: (Sorry, Tess -- didn't mean to hijack...... do you want to carry one?)
  • [9:05] Tess Linden: no, this is a good discussion to have
  • [9:05] j3rry Paine: lillie - each prim *already* has a unique uuuid
  • [9:05] dibbs Dovgal: Yes how DARE you!
  • [9:06] Guen Shan: *mews*
  • [9:06] Wolt Amat: Wolt Amat here, maybe Wolt Amat The Furball if conflicted.
  • [9:06] Tegg Bode: I guess I could be tegbode@LindenGrid and also teggbode@IBMgrid and crazyroo@frootloopgrid
  • [9:06] Whump Linden: Tess: before it gets too late in the OO, I'd like to briefly mention OGP signup mechanics.
  • [9:06] Lillie Yifu: but it does not need to have a unique identifier for th epurposes of identity
  • [9:06] dibbs Dovgal: With the same underlying UUID?
  • [9:06] Lillie Yifu: UUID is fine for objects, the quesiton was about user accounts
  • [9:07] Zero Linden: See, I think that if we have to have names tied to region domains ("grids") then we've failed a bit
  • [9:07] Wolt Amat: Tht's too geeky.
  • [9:07] Zero Linden: Because that doesn't really enforce the true separation of identity from location
  • [9:07] Wolt Amat: Lets let Tess finish.
  • [9:07] Lillie Yifu: My suggestion is to pick an identifier that is already mangaed some how, and give one to each account.
  • [9:07] FWord Utorid: Tess is never finished, she has 12 more meetings today
  • [9:07] JB Kraft: zero, pardon but why is that sep a criteria?
  • [9:08] Prospero Linden: The danger of having globally unique "names", though, is that you'll have the AIM effect of lots of people who have numbers appended to the end of their names. (Nothing against Tara5 here... but lots of aim names don't look like names.)
  • [9:08] Ann Otoole: email address works all over the internet. will only be one and only one annotoole@annotoole.com
  • [9:08] Tegg Bode: Well we let her finnish our meeting :)
  • [9:08] Zero Linden: true Ann, but then I have to explain to my mother how to register a DNS domain!
  • [9:08] Prospero Linden: heh
  • [9:08] Prospero Linden: Same problem with PGP keys
  • [9:08] Carolie Watanabe: (and scammers will cybersquat the good names, create parking names, etc.)
  • [9:08] Xugu Madison: E-mail addresses would be one solution, but does mean everyone you meet gets your e-mail address
  • [9:09] Ann Otoole: she can use a yahoo or gmail account. google is using email addys for liveley already
  • [9:09] FWord Utorid: ok for the sake of argument and fun, pretend there is 'NameOverlordServer', and we sign up for NameOverlordServer with our LL user/pass and register our NameOverlordKey, which is 18,278,426 digits long. will that work?
  • [9:09] Zero Linden: JB asks a good question: Why should there be a criteria of seperating control of identity from control of locality?
  • [9:09] Sierra Janus: I know of some services which have the User name and a Display name. One for technical purposes and login/authent and one for display for human users
  • [9:09] FWord Utorid: like, what if our unique id was a music video encoded in mp4
  • [9:09] Zero Linden: And, I'll be the first to admit that we could create a fully functional open grid without it
  • [9:09] Zero Linden: BUT, I think we lose something of the value of virtual worlds:
  • [9:09] Wolt Amat: Put this topic in the parking lot and lets move on.
  • [9:09] Zero Linden: that the webdoesn't ahve
  • [9:09] FWord Utorid: and each sim would have to watch the video to validate who we are
  • [9:10] Zero Linden: When I'm here, or when I'm at an internal meeting, or shopping for clothes - I'm Zero Linden
  • [9:10] Zero Linden: On the web, when I'm on a WebEx confrence, or viewing my work calendar on Google, or buying books on Amazone - I'm three different accounts
  • [9:10] Scharpe Fhang: shouldn't you be Zero Linden regardless of which grid you're on?
  • [9:11] FWord Utorid: I am just saying, is it more secure the more numbers and more complex it becomes, when everyone can read it?
  • [9:11] j3rry Paine: to combat the embraced loss of privacy, many are *choosing* to present as one of several identities
  • [9:11] Rex Cronon: what if he doesn't want to be?
  • [9:11] Scharpe Fhang: his choice, Rex - I have many IRC nicks - by my choice
  • [9:11] Tegg Bode: So when you as a Linden get External stuck on the end of your name it would feel a bit like Superman infront of Krytonite having all your Admin powers sapped away :)
  • [9:11] Zero Linden: I think a key facet of virtual worlds is that we don't feel like our avatars an account owned by Linden Lab - we feel like our avatars are ourselves - and we've choosen to let Linden Lab host it for now
  • [9:11] Scharpe Fhang: but I can have the same one on 2 nets
  • [9:11] Dahlia Trimble: maybe we need some way of linking different accounts together
  • [9:12] Tess Linden: Zero: but maybe you need to be on a separate account because the separate account has features that you need for that particular grid?
  • [9:12] Xugu Madison: Scharpe, problem is that I don't necessarily want people I work with, to be able to IM me when I'm at home. Or know I play World of Warcraft. Or.... countless other details. Equally, I don't necessarily want people I meet on SL to know about my work
  • [9:12] Zero Linden: If I'm going to feel like my avatar is an account at a hosting company - I don't know that I'll be as "me"
  • [9:12] FWord Utorid: i still think it should be like a wormhole that you go through from grid to grid where you have a different you on the other side
  • [9:12] Sierra Janus: Zero, but where else would you put it? Would you trust the client?
  • [9:12] Zero Linden: So - let grids tie special features to my avatar - but my avatar identity - must be mine
  • [9:12] dibbs Dovgal: So perhaps there needs to be an identifier outside of the UUID which is for avatars only.
  • [9:12] dibbs Dovgal: As for example a cell phone number
  • [9:12] Scharpe Fhang: Xugu - your choice, but those who want the same identity should be able to have it - virtual worlds should be a huge tent
  • [9:13] Zero Linden: So - If I'm "Joe Avatar" - and I first registered at secondlife.com
  • [9:13] FWord Utorid: i want to pretend to be the same me everywhere
  • [9:13] j3rry Paine: you don't have to pretend
  • [9:13] pling Kirax: eacah av should have 2 codes
  • [9:13] Wolt Amat: This same discussion has happened many times, I suggest it needs to get formalized on a Wiki requirements document.
  • [9:13] Zero Linden: I think there is a loss if my account must now and forever be identified as "Joe Avatar, from SecondLife.com" (even if the second part is only shown to disambiguate)
  • [9:13] FWord Utorid: but I *want* to pretend.
  • [9:13] Tess Linden: so if Aditi agent domain doesn't support Inventory transfer, how do we tie Inventory transfer as a feature to it?
  • [9:13] Ann Otoole: So Zero what do you do when you go to another grid and find Zero Linden already has a gay porn operation going? There are serious ramifications where identity is concerned.
  • [9:14] Zero Linden: Ann- well, le'ts seperate two issues here:
  • [9:14] dibbs Dovgal: Only if your Avatar name is supposed to be unique representation.
  • [9:14] FWord Utorid: if there was gay porn of me on another grid, i would find myself and make a movie with the other me
  • [9:14] Zero Linden: 1) What is the unique identifier? UUID? Name? Name + some org?
  • [9:14] j3rry Paine: as in rl
  • [9:14] Lillie Yifu: He should demand a piece of the actionann.
  • [9:14] j3rry Paine: no, me
  • [9:14] Scharpe Fhang: how about name+uuid?
  • [9:15] Zero Linden: 2) Is the unique id. the person's or ultimately owned by the registrar?
  • [9:15] Scharpe Fhang: IP rights - by tthe person
  • [9:15] FWord Utorid: ok. i definately think the domination of the me everywhere concept is wiping out all of the tidbits tess had written down before she got here.
  • [9:15] Prospero Linden: (2) The unique ID should be the person's... although there may be special "corporate accounts", as Linden names are right now in SL.
  • [9:15] dibbs Dovgal: /mw suts up.
  • [9:15] j3rry Paine: i thought the first u in uuid is unique
  • [9:15] pling Kirax: personal code and host code
  • [9:15] Zero Linden: In otherwords - I recognize that we need uniqueness for many reasons (though many people in RL get along just fine with non-unique names)
  • [9:15] Bad Maladay: name + unique id pretty much mirrors rl
  • [9:16] Zha Ewry: / Only sort of Zero, You routinely see the "No, not that John Smith, the one who works in accouting.." discussions
  • [9:16] Prospero Linden: Zero : although there are identifiers -- social security #, etc. -- that separate people in RL with non-unique names. Plus, we can't easily TP into the land owned by people with the same name as us.
  • [9:16] Siddhartha Fonda: people in RL with unique names have diff SSNs lol
  • [9:16] Zero Linden: But I worry that if the uniqueness is tied to the registrar (which is technically convienent) - that we will loose some of the value of virtual worlds
  • [9:16] Scharpe Fhang: no, Rad - there's a sitting judge a few miles from here with my RL name - uuid is more unique than RL
  • [9:16] Lillie Yifu: what about your UUID email address "uuID@secondlife.com" for example. Each grid hands out uuids as it likes, each grid hands out a name space, checking is by sending credentials back to the original grid.
  • [9:16] Zha Ewry: You also get seriosuys resilience issues, if you over centralize
  • [9:16] Sierra Janus: I'm confused, aren't the issues solved by methodologies like those used in OpenID
  • [9:17] FWord Utorid: could we reiterate the moral of the story... ogp code is in the opensim system waiting to be patched, the aditi grid will be actively connected on <insert day>, and as yet there's no answer to how I will be Bob on all of the grids?
  • [9:17] Zha Ewry: OpenId only helps yout authenticate..
  • [9:17] Zero Linden: prospero - right so *IF* OGP ends up being a system where there can be two "Joe Cool"s then clearly ownership must be based on the unique ID
  • [9:17] Tegg Bode: Also an issue is an object might show "Zero Linden" as the creator of a griefing item made on another grid by another Zero Linden and brought into SL™
  • [9:17] Sierra Janus: But isn't that the issue? Verifying your identity?
  • [9:17] ParkRanger Parx: wow lol what's up everyone x]
  • [9:17] Zha Ewry: Given the desire to span the whole world, I don't think that you can avoid the multiple Joe Smith issues
  • [9:18] Zero Linden: What happens, Lillie - if after registering with CheepoAvatars.com I decided I'd rather go with HighClassVirtualPeople.com?
  • [9:18] dibbs Dovgal: Nore should we want to.
  • [9:18] Evo Szuyuan: i don't think so either
  • [9:18] Zha Ewry: (and openID, doesn't ghelp with the name clash, it ties to being able to get a domain in DNS)
  • [9:18] Zero Linden: will my ID forever be checked with the first registrar and forwarded? what happens if they get vindictive? or go out of business?
  • [9:18] FWord Utorid: writes a bot that registers Prokofy Neva on all of the other grids
  • [9:18] Sierra Janus: Then maybe we should migrate out reliance on display names and more onto unique identifiers where we need to be sure we are talking with "Joe Cool" we are meant to be speaking with.
  • [9:19] Sierra Janus: off display names*
  • [9:19] Siddhartha Fonda: do we have architectural documents somewhere that detail the possibilities we are beating to death here?
  • [9:19] Tegg Bode: Yep if we were all verified somehow and everything we made linked to that verification then we have a chance, I suspect the days of infinate anonymous alts are numbered
  • [9:19] Zero Linden: wanted to draw attention to dibbs' keen observation of the similarity to cell phone number portability
  • [9:19] Prospero Linden: So what's needed somehow then is a distributed registry of names.
  • [9:19] FWord Utorid: zero: ok so we need area codes
  • [9:19] FWord Utorid: this is sector 001
  • [9:19] Zha Ewry: nods, if you don't pay attentoin, then you're stuck with your initial registrar.. and.. that's not goign to make *anyone* happy
  • [9:20] Saijanai Kuhn: [3] and [4]
  • [9:20] Flight Band: All Go
  • [9:20] FWord Utorid: whoa... when there is cross-grid names and teleporting, you could bring thousands of Prokofy Nevas from all of the other grids here
  • [9:20] Xugu Madison: I think having clients indicate that you're talking to someone you've bookmarked, or not, would help. So I generally am unlikely to know two avatars with the same name, and if it tells me I'm talking to the Joe Smith I know, and not a random Joe Smith, that's a good start
  • [9:20] Tegg Bode: NOOOOOOOO! PN overload :)
  • [9:21] Zero Linden: Siddhartha - the wiki awaits you! Please write them up!
  • [9:21] Ann Otoole: don't poison the dns cache fword
  • [9:21] Saijanai Kuhn: grid UUID:name...
  • [9:21] Siddhartha Fonda: i'd love to Zero, actually :)
  • [9:21] Zha Ewry: hmm. Client features can help, but they don't do much more than place requirements on the prtocol
  • [9:21] Saijanai Kuhn: Siddhartha, chec out those to meta pages first
  • [9:21] Zero Linden: Xugu - yes, I've thought of a similar thing - trying to do a digital form of face recognition -- I think the client to should store the UUID of ALL avatars you've ever encountered
  • [9:22] Zha Ewry: (The prtocol being the spec, not the client heaiod)
  • [9:22] Zha Ewry: *behavior
  • [9:22] Saijanai Kuhn: [5] and [6]
  • [9:22] FWord Utorid: imagine a world where there was only Prokofy Neva everywhere. do you think that would be popular?
  • [9:22] Zero Linden: and display a little key symbol meaning "you've run in this person before"
  • [9:22] Zero Linden: and it could even make ti clear when you've seen dups...
  • [9:22] FWord Utorid: also, the lindens should make sure that their welcome areas aren't accessible to people from these external grids :P
  • [9:22] Siddhartha Fonda: Sal, i've looked over those a bit, thanks
  • [9:22] Monk Zymurgy: give each human a barcode..and work from that i think
  • [9:22] Xugu Madison: Zero, also useful. Particularly for "YOu last encountered this AV last night", incase you bump into someone you didn't bookmark
  • [9:23] Zero Linden: Siddhartha - I was serious - please do!
  • [9:23] Saijanai Kuhn: whatever you work up, make sure its liinked to at least one of them, probably grouipies until its vetted by LL
  • [9:23] Prospero Linden: "You encounter this AV last night, but you don't remember because you were drinking too much."
  • [9:23] Whump Linden: "Case, Miami, Fast Study."
  • [9:23] Wyn Galbraith: LOL
  • [9:23] Zha Ewry: chcukels at the end satte "You last ran into this person, at Heron, during a live concert, and she said something very nice about the hostesses lupine avatar"
  • [9:23] Dahlia Trimble: lol @ Prospero
  • [9:23] j3rry Paine: hey joeboy
  • [9:23] Lillie Yifu: SL is where people can act like their drunk without throwing up.
  • [9:23] BlueWall Slade: runs to Wal-Mar for hard drive to hold vaie ID's in cache
  • [9:24] Saijanai Kuhn: recalls the original EQ drunk mode that COULD make you throw up
  • [9:24] Zero Linden: Zha - THAT'S a client I would payfor!
  • [9:24] Zha Ewry: nods
  • [9:24] Zha Ewry: Its one I could use sometimes
  • [9:24] Scharpe Fhang: a client-side !seen?
  • [9:24] Wyn Galbraith: remembers throwing up in one part of Ultima 7
  • [9:24] Xugu Madison: "The avatar you've just woken up next to is called <name>" :)
  • [9:24] Wolt Amat: Laughing Out Loud
  • [9:25] ParkRanger Parx: EQ drunk was awesome, i hope they apply that to SL like the hooka in red light dsitrict also!
  • [9:25] Tegg Bode: I suggest that no avatar from another grid can enter any other grid unless they have ironclad verification from their parent grid
  • [9:25] dibbs Dovgal: The chewed off arm of teh avatar you went to bed with is called <name's arm>
  • [9:25] Lillie Yifu: "Down grade your graphics card until he's cute."
  • [9:25] ParkRanger Parx: dark ages, you would die if you drank too much xD lol
  • [9:25] Zha Ewry: Tegg.. I think that will be a policy choice, not a prtoocl choice
  • [9:25] FWord Utorid: the reason your thighs look like an introverted triangle is because you were engaged in unscrupulous activities with 400 monkeys in space during the protomorphosis storm
  • [9:25] FWord Utorid: wait, did i just say that on TV?
  • [9:25] Scharpe Fhang: agree Zha - up to the grid
  • [9:26] FWord Utorid: ok so when do we get this chaos stuff?
  • [9:26] FWord Utorid: in 4 months?
  • [9:26] Ann Otoole: ironclad verification from a distant grid does not guarantee that persona has someone else registered and misusing the persona in the grid you are entering.
  • [9:26] Ann Otoole: doesn't. sorry
  • [9:26] FWord Utorid: did Tess run away? Tess when is this going to be a real thing?
  • [9:26] Sierra Janus: Also what would these 'identities' be exactly in a decentralised system? What information would they contain?
  • [9:27] Tegg Bode: I hope it doesn't hit mainstream till it's been thought about, bounced around and thought about again, and decided
  • [9:27] Scharpe Fhang: Ann, there's no absolute guarantee in either life
  • [9:27] Ann Otoole: i don't see anonymous accounts as remaining very viable for much longer
  • [9:27] FWord Utorid: What is the atomic weight of cobol?
  • [9:27] Wyn Galbraith: oh geeze, left my chart at home
  • [9:27] Wolt Amat: An identity, or user profile, contains not only whatever the user wants, but also what and to who they want to expose it.
  • [9:27] Ann Otoole: so you can be anonymous but cannot sell anything etc etc.
  • [9:27] Tess Linden: well - the protocol currently just uses an agent_id, and its the one that the Aditi agent domain knows about
  • [9:27] Wolt Amat: And what parts they control and what parts are controlled by various providers they interact with.
  • [9:27] Zha Ewry: Which we know isn't a long term viable story
  • [9:28] FWord Utorid: 1. when can we get it 2. how do we hook up 3. are you hawt in rl
  • [9:28] Tess Linden: yep
  • [9:28] Lillie Yifu: I hope it hasn't been made public until it has been hacked in a few very embarassign ways first. That's the only way we cna know it has been tested.
  • [9:28] Prospero Linden: is going to head out to fret about the database
  • [9:28] Sierra Janus: So in the future what should these identies contain? I think that's important if we're trying to work out how to maintain a level of trust and integrity whilst maintaining a level of freedom for the user
  • [9:28] Xugu Madison: Good luck Prospero
  • [9:28] Tess Linden: I'm going to hand over the floor to Whump who will wrap us up with some information about the Beta
  • [9:28] FWord Utorid: prospero, transfer all of the stuff to my inventory from everyone plz
  • [9:28] Carolie Watanabe: I have an alt who is stuck somehwere over a snow sim
  • [9:28] Zha Ewry: Not fiddline around the with database? No frets?
  • [9:28] Wolt Amat: User ID MUST be decentralized, and MUST allow partial storage at multiple locations.
  • [9:29] BlueWall Slade: databases :/
  • [9:29] JB Kraft: i see the UUID as being yours, the name is the grids
  • [9:29] Prospero Linden: FWord : if I did that, you'd never be able to load your inventory again.....
  • [9:29] dibbs Dovgal: Would serve him right
  • [9:29] Xugu Madison: Prospero, which I think would be really funny :)
  • [9:29] FWord Utorid: it's ok, i already have everyone's pants
  • [9:29] Whump Linden: raises mainipulator claw.
  • [9:30] Zha Ewry: rememebers whe she always sits away from Wump, those claws make her nervous
  • [9:30] FWord Utorid: ok so next wednesday you will press the on button?
  • [9:30] Whump Linden: Since we're at the end of the scheduled time, I wanted to mention a couple of housekeeping bits.
  • [9:30] Nidol Slazar: Is this Sparta?
  • [9:31] Tegg Bode: Hmm we need longer office hours for this sort of thing, we haven't even finished bouncing the first topic about
  • [9:31] Wolt Amat: If anyone would ike to comment, lok at webapp.etsi.org/action/PU/20051018/eg_202532v010101p.pdf.
  • [9:31] Wolt Amat: 202325*
  • [9:31] FWord Utorid: I didn't even get to take my picture with Prospero
  • [9:31] Xugu Madison: Do we perhaps want to have a "pre-hours" discussion without requiring poor Zero to attend our babble? :)
  • [9:31] Zha Ewry: well, pause, read/write wiki, and bring comments to the AWGroupies on Tuesday...
  • [9:31] Saijanai Kuhn: hoping to get a Linden Lab FIreside Chat show going with Metanomics
  • [9:31] Whump Linden: The sign up for the beta program is at https://lists.secondlife.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gridnauts
  • [9:32] Saijanai Kuhn: would free up the office hours space quite a bit
  • [9:32] Primal Isle: Transport HUD: Welcome dibbs
  • [9:32] Whump Linden: The program kicks off at the end of July.
  • [9:32] Tess Linden: What Zero said, not only do we need documentation to save our thoughts, we need them to organize our thoughts
  • [9:32] Siddhartha Fonda: Xugu that might be a good idea :)
  • [9:32] j3rry Paine: lol code and forget
  • [9:32] Wolt Amat: Testing 1 2 3.
  • [9:32] Zha Ewry: and be able to say, "Hey, we looked t this, and rejected it, look at this line of thinking in the wiki"
  • [9:32] Saijanai Kuhn: points out that there is an open source Ptyhon based client library underdevelopment for testing the protocols
  • [9:33] Whump Linden: We will be hosting frequent office hours on technical issues related to the beta, as opposed to the more freewheeling discussion here and at AWG.
  • [9:33] dibbs Dovgal: Must run to meeting: take care all : very interesting discussion
  • [9:33] Saijanai Kuhn: [7]
  • [9:33] Siddhartha Fonda: Tess that's what i was getting at with the diagram comment
  • [9:33] Rex Cronon: bye dibbs
  • [9:33] Sierra Janus: For those of us who live in odd timezones (2:30 AM here) is there some way we can participate in these sorts of discussions elsewhere?
  • [9:34] FWord Utorid: the signup url exploded my viewer
  • [9:34] Saijanai Kuhn: [8]
  • [9:34] Xugu Madison: Sierra, the Tuesday meeting might work better... 2pm SLT I think
  • [9:34] Whump Linden: FWord?
  • [9:34] Saijanai Kuhn: thats a list of all AWG-related meetings
  • [9:34] Saijanai Kuhn: that I know of
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