User:Zero Linden/Office Hours/2008 Mar 11

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  • [13:00] Rob Linden: hi folks
  • [13:00] Tao Takashi: Heya ROb
  • [13:00] Tao Takashi: did you actually get my email with that JIRA number?
  • [13:01] Tao Takashi: (about the caps server opening)
  • [13:01] Rob Linden: oh...no I didnt'
  • [13:01] Tao Takashi: Hm, I did send it to robla
  • [13:01] Morgaine Dinova: Tao: I still can't see it in there, darn :-(
  • [13:01] Rob Linden: doublechecks
  • [13:01] Rob Linden: I was looking out for that, but clearly not closely enough
  • [13:02] Rex Cronon: hello everybody
  • [13:02] Tao Takashi: search for "Linden Lab"
  • [13:02] Tao Takashi: well, without
  • [13:02] Tao Takashi: let me find it again
  • [13:02] Rob Linden: hrm....no email on that subject
  • [13:03] Rob Linden: I found the issue number, though: MISC-957?
  • [13:04] Tao Takashi: Rob: [1]
  • [13:04] Tao Takashi: Sai: I will also do a follow up article on AWG later on, mentioning everything which is noteworthy :)
  • [13:04] Rob Linden: I'm going to change it to new feature, but otherwise import
  • [13:04] Tao Takashi: Was planning on doing that anyway in german and english to have some reference point
  • [13:04] Tao Takashi: Well, I wasn't sure what to put in the fields ;-)
  • [13:04] Zha Ewry: Hey Rob
  • [13:05] Tao Takashi: and also which section
  • [13:06] Tao Takashi: so I am still hoping for a good name and URL for the AWG project ;-)
  • [13:06] Tao Takashi: we have lots of names or more acronyms in the meanwhile
  • [13:06] Saijanai Kuhn: Our Grid Architecture Working Group
  • [13:06] Tao Takashi: SLGA, SLGAWG, SLGOGP, AWG, etc.
  • [13:07] Saijanai Kuhn: or even Our Grid Working Architectural Domain
  • [13:07] Tao Takashi: well, I would like it to have a name, not an acronym ;-)
  • [13:07] Rex Cronon: hard to keep track of them without a glossary
  • [13:07] Tao Takashi: like opengridprotocol.com ;-)
  • [13:07] Tao Takashi: or with sl in front
  • [13:07] Tao Takashi: or even something better
  • [13:07] Tao Takashi: it's really hard to talk about it
  • [13:08] Tao Takashi: and it's hard for people to find it
  • [13:08] Tao Takashi: and I think it's important to be able to point them to something esp. now that it seems to take off
  • [13:08] Saijanai Kuhn: OGWAD is easy enough
  • [13:08] Tao Takashi: nope
  • [13:08] Tao Takashi:  ;-)
  • [13:08] Tao Takashi: for us maybe
  • [13:08] Bluewave Ogee: opengridprotocol.com
  • [13:08] Tao Takashi: SLO? :)
  • [13:09] Tao Takashi: Second Life Open
  • [13:09] Morgaine Dinova: GAWD :-)
  • [13:09] Tao Takashi: or Open Second Life
  • [13:09] Zero Linden: Hi folks
  • [13:09] Zero Linden: I'll be a bit late today
  • [13:09] Tao Takashi: Hey Zero
  • [13:09] Zero Linden: I'm demoing at Apple Comptuer
  • [13:09] Morgaine Dinova: Hiya Zero
  • [13:09] Zero Linden: I'll see you all later
  • [13:09] Dahlia Trimble: Hi :)
  • [13:09] Rex Cronon: hi zero
  • [13:09] Anders Falworth: Hi and bye Zero
  • [13:09] Tao Takashi: you do the OH at Apple ;-)
  • [13:09] Tao Takashi: HI STEVE! ;-)
  • [13:09] Saijanai Kuhn: Our Grid Architectural Working Domain = AGAWD. Our Mostly open Grid = OMG
  • [13:10] Tao Takashi: Mostly it very good for marketing ;-)
  • [13:10] Tao Takashi: Mostly working server components ;-)
  • [13:10] Tao Takashi: well, it fits SL :)
  • [13:10] Morgaine Dinova: s/Our/Open/
  • [13:10] Morgaine Dinova: OGAWD
  • [13:11] Morgaine Dinova: OpenGAWD -- hysterical :-)
  • [13:11] Zha Ewry: No, no. You need something that will look realy cute when it comes to Prok Ranting about it
  • [13:11] Tao Takashi: Open Future!
  • [13:11] Dahlia Trimble: lol
  • [13:11] Saijanai Kuhn: Future Open
  • [13:11] Zha Ewry: Zero apparently is the head of an Evil cabal
  • [13:11] Tao Takashi: The Grid Of The Future!
  • [13:11] Saijanai Kuhn: Prokofy says to all: F O
  • [13:11] Tao Takashi: Zero's thing?
  • [13:12] Tao Takashi: zerosthing.com
  • [13:12] Rob Linden: so have people had a chance to go over Zero's first draft doc?
  • [13:12] Gypsy Paz: reading it now
  • [13:12] Tao Takashi: quickly as I am still at work
  • [13:12] Tao Takashi: at least I printed it ;-)
  • [13:12] Dahlia Trimble: just opened it
  • [13:13] Morgaine Dinova: I started looking at it, currently thinking about the event queuing.
  • [13:13] Gypsy Paz: exciting stuff, and fits very nicely into the logical development of VR ;)
  • [13:14] Dahlia Trimble: agent can be interacted with even when the user is offline?
  • [13:14] Gypsy Paz: although a little scary from the security of content areas
  • [13:14] Saijanai Kuhn: Morgaine noticed that one too. Wondering if they meant "not connected to any grid"
  • [13:14] Morgaine Dinova: Dahlia: hehe, I commented on that too. Looks like the concept of "online" has been redefined.
  • [13:15] Tao Takashi: offline is the new online!
  • [13:15] Dahlia Trimble: interacted with in what manner?
  • [13:15] Morgaine Dinova: Tao: <chuckles>
  • [13:15] Saijanai Kuhn: make sure its not a typo first
  • [13:15] Morgaine Dinova: Yeah
  • [13:15] Dahlia Trimble: lol
  • [13:16] Rob Linden: which section are you all referring to here?
  • [13:17] Dahlia Trimble: Domains
  • [13:17] Rob Linden: ah....when you say you've commented on it, where was the comment made?
  • [13:18] Saijanai Kuhn: I think just in local chat after the groupies meeting
  • [13:18] Morgaine Dinova: In discussion in Groupies as we were reading
  • [13:19] Takashi Coeyman: i'm playing SL second time, can someone tell me how to teleport to normal town, looking like, for example, NYC?
  • [13:19] Tao Takashi: It might simply mean that you can give some agent inventory even when offline
  • [13:19] Tao Takashi: like right now
  • [13:19] Tao Takashi: but it probably needs more explanation
  • [13:19] Morgaine Dinova: efinitely
  • [13:19] Dahlia Trimble: k thatmakes sense
  • [13:19] Tao Takashi: it also does not look like a typo ;-)
  • [13:19] Saijanai Kuhn: takashi a good place to go to ask questions is the Second LIfe library
  • [13:20] Takashi Coeyman: where is it?
  • [13:20] Tao Takashi: because "even when online" might make more sense but sounds strange ;-)
  • [13:20] Rob Linden: ok...that'd be a good point to raise here: https://wiki.secondlife.com/w/index.php?title=SLGOGP_Draft_1/Discuss_1-1_Domains&action=edit
  • [13:20] IntLibber Brautigan: use the search function
  • [13:20] Takashi Coeyman: ok thx
  • [13:20] Rob Linden: I think there's one thing to consider here with respect to policy
  • [13:20] Morgaine Dinova: Well perhaps that whole area needs tightening up. What vanishes when a client diconnects, and what remains?
  • [13:20] Shaun Altman: hi
  • [13:21] Takashi Coeyman: can someone lead me to nice place or map?
  • [13:21] Rob Linden: standards documents tend to be very very neutral with respect to policy implemented by implementors
  • [13:21] Tao Takashi: I just commented on that :)
  • [13:21] Dahlia Trimble: I've had my avatar remain for over an hours once after I dosconnected
  • [13:22] Rob Linden: so, the question I'd ask this group is "should a standard dictate a policy for what is available when an agent is 'online'"?
  • [13:22] Dahlia Trimble: my alt pushed in into the ocean off the edge of a sim and I could finally connect after that
  • [13:22] Zha Ewry: Seems to me a standard isn't the right place to push on what servcies offer
  • [13:22] Zha Ewry: the standard defines the set of them
  • [13:22] Zha Ewry: and maybe says a subset is coherent
  • [13:22] Takashi Coeyman: is there someone who can speak polish? (i'm from Poland)
  • [13:22] Zha Ewry: and then people build and deployy accordint othier sense of the space
  • [13:23] XerxesTiny.LITTLE BEE.Head: Touched.
  • [13:23] IntLibber Brautigan: I would much rather prefer the plug-in developer model for adding third party services like you see on Facebook
  • [13:23] JB Kraft: the standard shouldnt, however is running the region should and the standard should facilitate that
  • [13:23] JB Kraft: whoever that is
  • [13:24] Tao Takashi: I agree with Zha
  • [13:24] Rob Linden: btw....I'll be posting a transcript of this
  • [13:24] Tao Takashi: there might be some actions which are crucial to the system and maybe need to taken care of, so these can be marked as MUST. the rest should be optional
  • [13:25] vinalopo : libro magia book: Can't create object 'FIRE!!!!' because the parcel 'Zero's Ground' at Grasmere 185.102, 111.538 is full.
  • [13:25] vinalopo : libro magia book: Can't create object 'FIRE!!!!' because the parcel 'Zero's Ground' at Grasmere 185.103, 111.539 is full.
  • [13:25] vinalopo : libro magia book: Can't create object 'FIRE!!!!' because the parcel 'Zero's Ground' at Grasmere 185.103, 111.539 is full.
  • [13:25] vinalopo : libro magia book: Can't create object 'FIRE!!!!' because the parcel 'Zero's Ground' at Grasmere 185.103, 111.539 is full.
  • [13:25] vinalopo : libro magia book: Can't create object 'FIRE!!!!' because the parcel 'Zero's Ground' at Grasmere 185.103, 111.539 is full.
  • [13:25] vinalopo : libro magia book: Can't create object 'FIRE!!!!' because the parcel 'Zero's Ground' at Grasmere 185.103, 111.539 is full.
  • [13:25] vinalopo : libro magia book: Can't create object 'FIRE!!!!' because the parcel 'Zero's Ground' at Grasmere 185.103, 111.539 is full.
  • [13:25] vinalopo : libro magia book: Can't create object 'FIRE!!!!' because the parcel 'Zero's Ground' at Grasmere 185.103, 111.539 is full.
  • [13:25] vinalopo : libro magia book: too many errors... dropping further messages until the flood stops
  • [13:25] Morgaine Dinova: Well everything can't be variabl and optiona, or you're left with nothing concrete to talk about :-)
  • [13:25] Rob Linden: previous transcripts: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User:Zero_Linden
  • [13:25] Nitram Wei: i hope yll dont mind a bug is here?
  • [13:25] Rex Cronon: hi nitram
  • [13:25] IntLibber Brautigan: lots of bugs in SL Nitram
  • [13:25] Tao Takashi: well, the actions which are available are of course defined and need to be answered. But when some action (like inv transfer) is allowed might be policy based
  • [13:25] Nitram Wei: hi rex
  • [13:25] Nitram Wei: yep
  • [13:26] Tao Takashi: but there needs to be a way for the agent domain of course to state that it's not allowed right now
  • [13:26] Dahlia Trimble: pulls out a fly swatter
  • [13:26] Rob Linden: hi Nitram: we're discussing issues related to this: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Architecture_Working_Group
  • [13:26] Nitram Wei: ok
  • [13:27] IntLibber Brautigan: we in the security communith have had a number of services in a JIRA article for a year now that would greatly decrease, if not eliminate griefing, as well as just improve landowners peace and repose.
  • [13:28] IntLibber Brautigan: firstly a landowner and estate owner should each be able to limit particles, building, scripting, and object entry by payment method
  • [13:28] Shaun Altman: Can't eliminate griefing programatically w/o limiting usefuleness
  • [13:28] Morgaine Dinova: Well as an example, some grids may want to implement the concept of transient agents, which disappear entirely on disconnect. SL currently implements a policy that such don't exist, as it retains their identity permanently.
  • [13:28] IntLibber Brautigan: oh theres lots of transient agents, they're called griefer alts
  • [13:29] Morgaine Dinova: Nah, they never disappear.
  • [13:29] Rob Linden: IntLibber, have you read https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLGOGP_Draft_1
  • [13:29] Tao Takashi: yeah, why on payment method, it should be on emotional state
  • [13:29] IntLibber Brautigan: nope, just got here a few minutes ago
  • [13:29] Rob Linden: k....that's our topic for today
  • [13:30] IntLibber Brautigan: payment method as well as age, will allow us to target specifically the day old no payment throwaway griefer alt
  • [13:30] IntLibber Brautigan: thus maximizing services for everybody else
  • [13:30] Morgaine Dinova: Those are policies. We aren't hardwiring policies.
  • [13:30] Shaun Altman: then griefers age the alts
  • [13:30] Shaun Altman: :P
  • [13:30] Tao Takashi: yep
  • [13:31] Tao Takashi: and the day old newbie is lost
  • [13:31] Saijanai Kuhn: this is a meeting for designing a new interoperating system of grids. LInden Lab policy would be discussed at other meetings
  • [13:31] Morgaine Dinova: Indeed
  • [13:32] Saijanai Kuhn: intLIbber, try looking here for the meeting you want to attend on this subject: [2]
  • [13:32] Rex Cronon: doesn't policy play any role in the design?
  • [13:33] IntLibber Brautigan: these points apply to more than just SL
  • [13:33] Rob Linden: I'd like to make sure we figure out how to best capture the feedback you all have here
  • [13:33] Saijanai Kuhn: OPen Sim operatorsare going to do things dfifferently, I'm pretty sure
  • [13:34] JB Kraft: indeed, the standard should define the options available to the region, how to implement broadcasting and controlling those options. open means policy and actual implementation is region specific imho, esp if we are facilitating linking worlds
  • [13:34] Rob Linden: do the "discuss" links that zero has put in make sense as the best way to gather input?
  • [13:35] Rob Linden: JB: I agree that's how we should be thinking about this. well put
  • [13:36] Saijanai Kuhn: well, they don't really exist yet, so people might be reluctant to start the discussion on a page with a red link
  • [13:36] IntLibber Brautigan: ok read the document, dont see any mention of services there
  • [13:36] Rob Linden: any voluteers to seed the discussion then?
  • [13:36] Zha Ewry: Me! me!
  • [13:36] Zha Ewry: I'm not shy!
  • [13:37] Saijanai Kuhn: Zha. Morgaine?
  • [13:37] Rex Cronon: the standard should relfect what people want
  • [13:37] Zero Linden: Uhm
  • [13:37] Zero Linden: Hello!?
  • [13:37] Morgaine Dinova: I'm going to read it thoroughly and make sure I understand it, before writing comments, hehe
  • [13:37] Tao Takashi: Hello Zero
  • [13:37] Morgaine Dinova: 'Afternoon, Zero
  • [13:37] Saijanai Kuhn: Zero? What are YOU doing here...
  • [13:37] Zero Linden: Oh
  • [13:37] Nitram Wei: youre late, 0
  • [13:37] Zero Linden: don't mine me
  • [13:37] Zha Ewry: Afternoon Zero. Welcome to your office hours
  • [13:37] Zero Linden: I'm just tidying up...
  • [13:37] Rob Linden: lol
  • [13:37] James Benedek: lol
  • [13:37] Morgaine Dinova: Hehe
  • [13:37] Saijanai Kuhn: Anything you say is for public consumption
  • [13:38] Rex Cronon: hi again zero
  • [13:38] Tao Takashi: Rob is recording it!
  • [13:38] Nitram Wei: are you after me?
  • [13:38] Zero Linden: Thanks, I'll have a donut
  • [13:38] Nitram Wei: ok
  • [13:38] Dahlia Trimble: is there some aspect of capabilities that tie them to a logged in session? I dont see anything in the document that would address that
  • [13:38] Nitram Wei: its on the house
  • [13:38] Zero Linden: Thanks all - I was giving a talk at Apple computer --
  • [13:38] Saijanai Kuhn: how did that go?
  • [13:38] Zero Linden: and it ran until 1... I thought it ended at 12:30... my bad
  • [13:39] Zero Linden: It was fine
  • [13:39] Tao Takashi: so what about?
  • [13:39] Morgaine Dinova: We might as well clear up the things we were wondering if they were typos first.
  • [13:39] Tao Takashi: SL in general or technical stuff?
  • [13:39] Zero Linden: not my best - but they appluaded anyway!
  • [13:39] Tao Takashi: will the be SL soon preinstalled on Macs? :)
  • [13:39] Zero Linden: just general SL / Developing in SL / Developing SL / etc...
  • [13:39] Nitram Wei: well an apple is more healthy then a donut?
  • [13:39] Saijanai Kuhn: you warned us earlier, Zero. I kinda made my spam advertisement ambiguous
  • [13:39] Tao Takashi: or will they help with usability? ;-)
  • [13:39] Zero Linden: No - Apple served me pizza and cookies
  • [13:39] Morgaine Dinova: Zero negociated the sale of Linden bears on iTunes ;-)))
  • [13:39] Saijanai Kuhn: *musical* beras
  • [13:39] Saijanai Kuhn: bears
  • [13:40] James Benedek: hahah, thought they would server you apple hence their name
  • [13:40] Shaun Altman: Zero: did u meet Steve Jobs? :)
  • [13:40] Saijanai Kuhn: Zero used to work for Steve Jobs
  • [13:40] Zero Linden: No, Steve wasn't there.
  • [13:40] Shaun Altman: oh wow
  • [13:40] Zero Linden: And yes, I did, 23 years ago....
  • [13:40] Morgaine Dinova: How strong was the Reality Distortion Field?
  • [13:40] IntLibber Brautigan: ok now to frame my point properly, the region domain owner needs to have the capacity to assign capabilities to agents based up on factors like age and payment info.
  • [13:41] Tao Takashi: there probably will be some webservice on the agent domain to retrieve that info
  • [13:41] Morgaine Dinova: "Age and payment info" ... in a virtual world. Odd priorities.
  • [13:41] Saijanai Kuhn: I've been advocating that agent capabilities be available to sim owners, so that would go along wwith that idea, Intlibber
  • [13:41] Zero Linden: So - you'd like the region domain to be able to ask that of the agent domain
  • [13:42] Zero Linden: that sounds reasonable
  • [13:42] Saijanai Kuhn: but its STILL not part of this meeting (IMHO)
  • [13:42] Zero Linden: but the agent domain might decline to state
  • [13:42] Rob Linden: I'll restate something that we were discussing earlier (JB summarized well):
  • [13:42] Tao Takashi: it's a somewhat biased question ;-)
  • [13:42] Saijanai Kuhn: or maybe it is. Zero's office hours, zero's meeting..
  • [13:42] Rob Linden: JB Kraft: indeed, the standard should define the options available to the region, how to implement broadcasting and controlling those options. open means policy and actual implementation is region specific imho, esp if we are facilitating linking worlds
  • [13:42] Zero Linden: and how does the region domain decided if it trusts the answers the agent domain gives?
  • [13:42] Zero Linden: just food for thought
  • [13:42] IntLibber Brautigan: I was told the given document is the topic of this discussion and I'm commenting in the context of that document
  • [13:42] IntLibber Brautigan: good question Zero
  • [13:43] IntLibber Brautigan: what sort of agent verification resources will there be?
  • [13:43] IntLibber Brautigan: like an SSL certificate for the agent
  • [13:43] Morgaine Dinova: Agent verification is a matter of policy
  • [13:44] Morgaine Dinova: And as Rob said, we're not specifying the policies that will be in place in the future extended ystem of grids
  • [13:44] IntLibber Brautigan: this isn't about policy Morgaine
  • [13:44] Zero Linden: Well - I don't think we are envisioning an SSL cert per agent
  • [13:44] Zero Linden: just one per domain
  • [13:44] Morgaine Dinova: ItLibb: verification is definitely a policy issue
  • [13:44] Tao Takashi: but I also think we are somewhat earlier in the protocol here
  • [13:45] Zero Linden: so you'd have to decied on the trustworthyness of the domain as a whole
  • [13:45] IntLibber Brautigan: a domain owner needs to be able to verify the agents entering his domain are who they say they are
  • [13:45] Zero Linden: then perhaps you ask for some set of fields of data about the agent
  • [13:45] Zero Linden: (or all)
  • [13:45] Zero Linden: and the agent domain gives you a set... and that set would be? I dunno - Dublin Core?
  • [13:45] Tao Takashi: ah, I forgot to send Zero the Data Portability group details....
  • [13:45] Gypsy Paz: and also perhaps the othe rway around, the trustworthness of the region domain your going to
  • [13:45] Morgaine Dinova: IntLib: not in general, no. Your requirement seems to be to verify, but that just expresses your personal preferences/needs.
  • [13:45] Shaun Altman: Sorry to interrupt, but am I understanding correctly the context is that an agent (me, you, whoever) can be hosted on a 3rd party sytem AND a region (Grasmere, wherever) can be hosted on a different 3rd party system, and LL's systems may have no direct knowledge of either? Is that what we're trying to build?
  • [13:46] Saijanai Kuhn: thats an issue that is espacialy important for asset sharing, Gypsy
  • [13:46] Tao Takashi: Shaun: yes
  • [13:46] Morgaine Dinova: Shaun: roughly, yes
  • [13:46] Shaun Altman: Tao: can an agent's assets then also be scattered amongst many 3rd party systems?
  • [13:46] Tao Takashi: or you can do your own disconnected thing
  • [13:46] IntLibber Brautigan: Morgaine, you are expressiong your personal preferences/needs to not have the services I am proposing.
  • [13:46] James Benedek: only problem with asset sharing is that items may go missing and stuff copied and ect.. ect...
  • [13:46] Zero Linden: gypsy - I'm pretty sure both sides will ahve to ascertain thier level of confidence in the other
  • [13:46] Tao Takashi: Shaun: Well, you probably will be on one agent domain only
  • [13:46] Tao Takashi: with one agent
  • [13:47] Tao Takashi: so your inventory will be there
  • [13:47] Saijanai Kuhn: James, that goes to domain trust issues. Do domains trust each other to "do the right thing"
  • [13:47] Tao Takashi: but if you rez stuff this can be scattered among many region domains of course
  • [13:47] Zero Linden: Shaun - eventually, yes
  • [13:47] Shaun Altman: Tao: and that's where all my assets live, but I can take them around other regions? When I acquire an asset on another region, it will get "transported" into my agent domain?
  • [13:47] Shaun Altman: Wow! What a complex and vexing problem space!
  • [13:47] James Benedek: but how do we know we can trust who? XD
  • [13:47] Dahlia Trimble: some grids would prolly elect to trust each other, others may not
  • [13:47] Tao Takashi: Shaun: in principle you can but there might be trust issues involved in where you are allowed to rez it
  • [13:47] Shaun Altman: Ok now that I understand more fully I'll shut up and continue absorbing :)
  • [13:47] Tao Takashi: but the details need to be worked out
  • [13:47] James Benedek: exactly
  • [13:48] Saijanai Kuhn: So, I guess what IntLIbb wants is a way to query the Agent Domain for agent-specific data like age, account data. I'd add client capabilities. Maybe other stuff
  • [13:48] Zero Linden: Well - there are plenty of objects for which no trust is needed - say full perm objects
  • [13:48] Tao Takashi: indeed, it makes the problem space of the Data Portability group look quite small and simple ;-)
  • [13:48] Zero Linden: And eventually, we've talk about scripts that are for attachements running in the agent domain - which would allow greater protections for attachements
  • [13:48] Tao Takashi: still they are not discussing on a philosophical level what "data" and what "portability" means
  • [13:49] Morgaine Dinova: IntLib: all policies need to be embraced. For example, Amnesty International might want to run a domain for political dissidents. I hope you can see that your verification requirement would be quite inappropriate. ANd could lead to deaths.
  • [13:49] James Benedek: reason why there are other grids is they all want to do something different, bringing them together may not all have the same agreements at times
  • [13:49] Zha Ewry: nods
  • [13:49] IntLibber Brautigan: LOL, death in my OpenGrid? please get serious Morgaine
  • [13:49] Rob Linden: much of the trust relationships can happen outside of the protocol....e.g. HTTP provides a way to encrypt, but there's not a lot in the spec about how client and server establish trust relationships
  • [13:49] Saijanai Kuhn: BUT, Morgaine, the info has to be availble to some extent.
  • [13:49] Zha Ewry: The technical goal is to permit the interop, the social goals, define what you need to do with trust and such
  • [13:49] Tao Takashi: I would think that depending on the policies you might be restricted in what you can do
  • [13:50] Zha Ewry: Different grids will have different notions of interop
  • [13:50] Saijanai Kuhn: the question is, how accesable is it and can it/should it be available to regions?
  • [13:50] Tao Takashi: we maybe need some basic set of things a RD and AD needs to support
  • [13:50] Morgaine Dinova: IntLib: we are being serious. SL already is used for social and political things. Not just for your money-earning interests. Embrace all policies.
  • [13:50] Zha Ewry: Will they share stuff, or not, and how, is going to be defined, not by protocol, btu by turst
  • [13:50] James Benedek: i would say why doesnt LL be the one we all trust and hosts the asset , as we all put our faith into LL seen as it is the main grid XD
  • [13:50] IntLibber Brautigan: While I recognise that some people may want to maintain total privacy, a region domain owner should also be able to decide to exclude privacy fetishists.
  • [13:50] Tao Takashi: James: because the world will take over then ;-)
  • [13:50] Tao Takashi: or OpenSim ;-)
  • [13:51] Shaun Altman: James: when there are a billion avatars, who will watch the watchers? :D
  • [13:51] Saijanai Kuhn: INtLibber, I agree. Regions need to have some access to at least SOME data beyond what is shown on the name tag
  • [13:51] Tao Takashi: and think if scalability
  • [13:51] Tao Takashi: of
  • [13:51] Saijanai Kuhn: how much is the question
  • [13:51] Zero Linden: james - I suspect that certainly initially it will be reasonable to have LL be the trust broker - "The way my region decides who to trust is by outsorucing that decision to LL"
  • [13:51] James Benedek: well i think LL are doign a pretty good job at controlling SL now
  • [13:51] Zero Linden: But as Rob said, that is outside the scope of the protocol itself -
  • [13:51] Zero Linden: the protocol just needs to allow you to have enough data to make the decision
  • [13:52] James Benedek: or maybe introducing a link up charge to the Main grid?
  • [13:52] Dahlia Trimble: zero, or have LL be the broker of the information used to establish trust
  • [13:52] IntLibber Brautigan: and frankly Morgaine, if your feared Chicom secret policy are trying to locate dissidents, they can do so by IP tracing their avatars anyways, so your point is baseless.
  • [13:52] Tao Takashi: James: but there are cases in which e.g. companies might not want to be hosted by LL, thus they want their own servers and then you have a trust issue already
  • [13:52] Shaun Altman: James: long-run, control is something I don't think we want LL (or anyone) to do
  • [13:52] Saijanai Kuhn: for LL policy, you need to talk to SL people in other office hours
  • [13:52] Shaun Altman: (if this is going to be really useful)
  • [13:52] Rex Cronon: intlib, r u going to make your credit card number public? or is it ok with u wif somebody elese does it?
  • [13:52] Tao Takashi: Shaun: indeed
  • [13:52] Shaun Altman: (I don't think for example the web would be nearly as useful if LL "controlled" it and hosted all the servers)
  • [13:52] Tao Takashi: and what will happen if LL goes out of business. Not that I hope they do but nothing is impossible
  • [13:52] IntLibber Brautigan: Rex, any time I use my credit card in a RL restaurant, its public.
  • [13:53] Tao Takashi: it might also make up for more competition and maybe thus inventions
  • [13:53] Zero Linden: Let's keep the political commentary to a dull roar.... while I think we all agree that the grid is for real world applications as well as virtual,
  • [13:53] Tao Takashi: never uses credit cards in restaurants.. or hardly
  • [13:53] James Benedek: i think it would be a good way of SL brinign more money in if they charged those who linked up their grid to LL's grid ( it brings in money and trust)
  • [13:53] IntLibber Brautigan: yes
  • [13:53] Saijanai Kuhn: Tao, de facto, they will be a major player at the start. The protoocls should be company neutral, but *someone* is going to need to step up at the start, and LL is the logical choice for now
  • [13:53] Zero Linden: we need to stay focused on creating a framework which enables use cases...
  • [13:53] Tao Takashi: James: probably they will charge for that ;-)
  • [13:53] Rex Cronon: no. is not public. the restaurant doesn't post it
  • [13:53] Tao Takashi: Sai: sure, I also think this will be like that in the beginning
  • [13:53] Zero Linden: Not debating them.
  • [13:54] Morgaine Dinova: IntLibb: VWs are going to be accessed through anonymizers just like other sensitive forums are today. Good luck tracerouting it.
  • [13:54] Dahlia Trimble: the restaurant doesnt post it, they just throw the receipt in the trash
  • [13:54] Shaun Altman: I need to log out for a few, back in a min
  • [13:54] IntLibber Brautigan: and region domain owners should be able to block access via anonymizer proxies like I already do on my websites
  • [13:54] Tao Takashi: the good thing is that everybody can implement then what he/she likes :)
  • [13:55] Tao Takashi: as long as it works with the protocol
  • [13:55] Zero Linden: Again- folks, little of this has to do with the protocol at hand
  • [13:55] Dahlia Trimble: agrees with Tao
  • [13:55] Morgaine Dinova: IntLibb: Indeed, fascist policies should be embraced as well as more liberal ones.
  • [13:55] Zero Linden: So - hey, how'd ya like that spec?
  • [13:55] Tao Takashi: I still need to read it fully ;-)
  • [13:55] Rex Cronon: why do u need to know exactly where somebody is connecting from, as they don't do any damage to your businiess?
  • [13:55] Morgaine Dinova: Zero: we found what we think are some typoses that changed the meaning -- shall we ask questions?
  • [13:55] Tao Takashi: still at work, will do when I get home and will also add some comments then should something be not clear
  • [13:56] IntLibber Brautigan: its not about fascism Morgaine, its about protecting ones system from DOS and hacking
  • [13:56] Dahlia Trimble: there was a question about what it means to interact with an agent when the user is offline
  • [13:56] Zero Linden: sure, ask - but please ALSO put them in the discuss pages
  • [13:56] Tao Takashi: yep, I commented on that and was wondering if inventory transfers etc. might be meant
  • [13:56] Morgaine Dinova: Zero: one question that several spotted: being disconnected but online, it confused us.
  • [13:56] Zero Linden: did you all see those
  • [13:56] Tao Takashi: it's on the discussion page
  • [13:57] Tao Takashi: "The agent persists and can be interacted with even when the user controlling it (though a viewer) is off-line." was the problem
  • [13:57] Dahlia Trimble: and I was wondering if granted capabilities expire with a session ending
  • [13:57] Tao Takashi: probably also a typo, "through"
  • [13:58] Zero Linden: Well - what I'm trying to express is that, for example, the agent exists even when you are logged out -- not the avatar in a region - the agent
  • [13:58] Gypsy Paz: well, it would be logical for agent capabilties to expire immediatly upon leaving a region
  • [13:58] Zero Linden: so for example, someone can transfer you inventory
  • [13:58] Zero Linden: which would be an interaction with the agent, even though you are not on line
  • [13:58] Tao Takashi: ah, I guessed as much.. maybe this needs a bit of clarification then in the text
  • [13:58] Rex Cronon: in db?
  • [13:59] Zero Linden: so, for example, if someone xfers you inventory and you are not on line, this protocol anticipates that the
  • [13:59] Zero Linden: transaction happens at the time of the gift, between the agent domains, even if the receiver isn't on line
  • [13:59] Zero Linden: I'm open to wording changes
  • [14:00] Dahlia Trimble: and the recipient would still have a chance to refuse?
  • [14:00] Rob Linden: Gypsy: that seems like a sensible implementation, but does a specifciation need to state that?
  • [14:00] Gypsy Paz: oh, not sure, I was just thinking outloud in repsonse to Dahlias comment
  • [14:00] Zero Linden: Gypsy - normally, a region revokes capabilities when the agent (and it's child camera) leave it
  • [14:01] Zero Linden: I'm not sure that the spec needs to say that - since it is really up to the region to decided when
  • [14:01] Morgaine Dinova: Zero: the agent can't persist as an active entity when the client is offline, as that wouldn't scale, so you must mean the INACTIVE records of the agent persist in the d/b. Correct?
  • [14:01] Zero Linden: we do state that grantors can revoke at anytime - and holders of a capabilities need to be prepared for that
  • [14:02] Zha Ewry: Well, Morgaine, the agent domain scales arbitratrily... so. not clear is so bad. My e-mail account has filters that run on every inbound e-mail, whetehr I'm logged onto my mail client or not
  • [14:02] Zero Linden: Morgaine - I purposely left it open to implementation detail - in LL's agent domain, we don't be holding any persistent processes open for each agent
  • [14:02] Dahlia Trimble: k I guess it wasnt clear to me that capabilities were strictly granted by regions
  • [14:02] Zero Linden: Dahila - they are not - agent domains grant 'em too
  • [14:02] Zero Linden: In fact, it is all envisioned as capability grants
  • [14:02] Zero Linden:  :-)
  • [14:03] Dahlia Trimble: and would agent domain capabilities remain valid between user sessions?
  • [14:03] Saijanai Kuhn: you can have a queue of pending inventory changes that are activated when you login so that wouldn't change from current behavior. Its just making it clear which domain is responsible, right?
  • [14:04] Saijanai Kuhn: so and so gives you something. So and so invites you. So and so sent you and email...
  • [14:04] Gypsy Paz: would these inventory transfers be handled by the region or by the asset servers?
  • [14:04] Zero Linden: inventory transfers are all agent to agent
  • [14:04] Morgaine Dinova: Zero: OK, let's assume that these are just passive or serialized records for an agent then, to be instantiated when something arrives that references the agent while the client is disconnected. That's the only sane implementation :-)
  • [14:05] Zero Linden: Sai - yes, making it clear that it is expected that, like a mailbox, you can contact the agent even when the human behind it isn't on line
  • [14:05] Zero Linden: I think agent domain capabilities, most of them, are session related
  • [14:05] Zero Linden: but there is nothing stopping an agent domain from granting one long term
  • [14:05] Zha Ewry: I can't see a lot of benefits to keepign them live across sessions, tho
  • [14:06] Saijanai Kuhn: true, but with inventory offers, and so on, live human (scripted bot) interaction is required for final approval and completion of transation
  • [14:06] Zero Linden: Well, the notion of session might be variable here
  • [14:06] Zha Ewry: You're lowering your security a lot, if you leave them open for too long
  • [14:06] Zha Ewry: nods
  • [14:06] Zha Ewry: Well, sure
  • [14:06] Zero Linden: If I have a smart phone, and I want my friends list to be updated on it all the time
  • [14:06] Zero Linden: then is that a long-lived capability or a session capability for long-lived session?
  • [14:06] Zha Ewry: Client crash, might not invalidate them, but, 20 minutes, with no interaction, and you might age them out
  • [14:06] Dahlia Trimble: My thoughts were related to the overhead of tracking the capabilities to enforce their expiration
  • [14:07] Zero Linden: Dahlia - because the capability host is opaque, one is free to distribute them out over the number of servers one needs for the volume
  • [14:08] Zero Linden: and there is no penelty on invocation (as each points directly at the right holst)
  • [14:08] Zero Linden: (*host)
  • [14:08] Zero Linden: Today, they are granted on a capability host associated (and run on the same server as) the region
  • [14:08] Dahlia Trimble: nods
  • [14:09] Zha Ewry: That's of the essence, to grow out the system, that we can offload caps as widely as the core underlying needs permit
  • [14:09] Zha Ewry: (Some things, can't offload, but most can)
  • [14:09] Rob Linden: k....I really need to run
  • [14:09] James Benedek: ok bye rob
  • [14:09] Dahlia Trimble: bye Rob :)
  • [14:09] Zero Linden: The math is easy: 4 regions x 50 avatar/region x 100 capabilities / avatar x 500 bytes/capability = 10Meg
  • [14:10] Zero Linden: not much
  • [14:10] Zha Ewry: Not more than my old PC/XT's hard drive ;-)
  • [14:10] Rob Linden: I'll leave my client running and sitting here, but someone is going to need to tell me where to cut off the transcript
  • [14:10] James Benedek: hahha
  • [14:11] Zero Linden: heh
  • [14:11] Zero Linden: I need to run too, actually
  • [14:11] Zero Linden: well - all - I expect a lively discussion of specification minutae on Thursday
  • [14:11] Gypsy Paz: well thanks, very exicting stuff going on over here ;)
  • [14:11] Zha Ewry: Super stuff Zero
  • [14:11] Dahlia Trimble: Thanks Zero :)
  • [14:11] James Benedek: ok thanks, great meeting
  • [14:11] Zha Ewry: I will pore over my hardcopy
  • [14:11] Rex Cronon: bye zero
  • [14:11] Zero Linden: And please - be sure to put all comments in the wiki too
  • [14:12] Shaun Altman: bye all thanks for the meeting
  • [14:12] Zero Linden: and perhaps I'll put in a note about my crazy XML work flow for this spec in there too... it is amusing!
  • [14:12] Zero Linden: later
  • [14:12] Morgaine Dinova: Bye :-)
  • [14:12] Zero Linden: later
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