Viewer Evolution User Group/Archive/2011-03-02

08:02	draconis.neurocam	Hello Q
	Stickman	Oz.
	Kalista Arliss	Hi Tank
	Mossbottom Mahogany	Big turn out due to crap viewer
	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks	publicly? no
	Fancy Greeter	Q Linden has arrived!
		Oz Linden has arrived!
	draconis.neurocam	and Oz
	TheBlack Box	hi hi :)
	Techwolf Lupindo	HI alll
	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks	buts its in the repository now
	Cummere Mayo	compiled or not?
	Stickman	We were having a long discussion about v2 in AWG this morning. Then the notice came up for the meeting. We felt obliged.
	Latif Khalifa	LOL
	Kopile Hallard	lol
	Haravikk	Hey Q! I hope you don't mind me butting in quickly but I just swung by to let you know there may be a fix for VWR-17657 if you see the latest comment
	JIRA-helper	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-17657 VWR-17657 Mute sound should ONLY mute the viewer's sounds, not the whole computer's (Mac) sound.
	Mossbottom Mahogany	we brought pitch forks and torches
08:03	Haravikk	I don't have time to stick around
	Q Linden	thanks. looking
	Mossbottom Mahogany	and a lot of rope
	Kopile Hallard	pitchforks, tourches, raptors
		that sort of thing
	Techwolf Lupindo	Tooth and claw
	Stickman	Raptors with vulcans.
	Kopile Hallard	hehe
	FERRET	do we burn 2010 or the client?
	Latif Khalifa	It started with me trying to help a friend to unmute object she muted by mistake. Turns out you cannot find mute list in viewer 2 without opening a user manual. Removing menu items that resulted in another total usability failure.
	Stickman	Because a display of force is the best way to begin a civil discussion?
08:04	Kalista Arliss	a RRRRRRRRiot is a terrrrrrrrrrrable thing to waste
	Cummere Mayo	grins at stick
	TriloByte Zanzibar	laughs
	Kopile Hallard	hey the vulcans are away... for now
	Q Linden	well, we're feisty this morning
08:05		rummages for the agenda
	Vincent Nacon	as much I'd like to see people armed with a solution than weapons... pity for time being wasted. :)
	Oz Linden	Agenda is empty
		https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Viewer_2_Evolution_User_Group
	Q Linden	so there's nothing on the agenda
	Stickman	Meeting's over!
	FERRET	there is no fruit to throw...
	Mossbottom Mahogany	thank god
	Q Linden	thanks for coming, all!
	Cummere Mayo	lol
	TheBlack Box	took long enough
	Haravikk	Anyway, if someone can look at that file for VWR-17657 then it might be fixable, I have to toddle off for now, see you next week!
	Mossbottom Mahogany	bye chatbot
	Stickman	I was trying to think of something to add to the agenda, and got distracted by a script that I found a solution for.
	Q Linden	somehow i bet we could come up with something
	Jonathan	Oz, you can have your meeting now :)
08:06	Cummere Mayo	you dont get away that easy
	Q Linden	tahnks, haravikk
	Techwolf Lupindo	How about continueing with the topic in awgroupies, what latif said about how to find out how to um-mute an object.
	TheBlack Box	thats a full day of work right here
	Vincent Nacon	well I do have one topic that is somewhat unrelated but... close enough
	Latif Khalifa	People just gave up I think. They see there is no use trying to get viewer2 to usable state.
	Kopile Hallard	I can't even compile v2
	TheBlack Box	i for one use and like viewer 2
	Latif Khalifa	Q, how long will you oppose docking local chat with the rest of conversations?
	Kalista Arliss	Actually Latif, it is quite doable
	FERRET	ok who broke the mute?
	Oz Linden	we're not here now to talk about compiling
	Stickman	I like the addressbar and shortcut buttons in viewer 2. They're very useful to me.
08:07	F L I P	So why is it that, lately, the build result pages say stuff like "Changes since the last good build (2011-02-26T01:02:40.000Z): Unknown "
	Jonathan	Thre are a number of mute fixes in the pipline for viewer 2
	Kopile Hallard	build.sh or whatever it is, is a minefield to use
	Stickman	The "action" buttons on the sidebar being at the very bottom of the page instead of right below the content confused me. Still makes me look around for them now and then.
	Q Linden	so oz is right -- this isn't the forum for building issues
	F L I P	I wanna know what's changed :/
	Cummere Mayo	building the viewer is a differant set of meetings guys
	Kopile Hallard	yeah
		>.>
	Cummere Mayo	i for one would like an answer to latifs question becuase it is an accessibility issue
	Techwolf Lupindo	YOu have to wait about 2 minutes Q to change topic. Chat lag.
	Q Linden	but for what it's worth, the whole build system is undergoing massive changes and getting a lot better
08:08	Techwolf Lupindo	:-)
	Latif Khalifa	And how many years we need to wait to get the basic chat shortucts working like ctrl.-t ad ctrl-w for closing conversations?
	Jonathan	Is someone suggesting adding a menu item to get at the mute controls?
	Q Linden	so come to merov's meeting to talk about build
	Cummere Mayo	allowing a chat bar with the conversation screen would make us much more accessible and much more industy standard
	Q Linden	regarding docking chat...
	Twisted Laws	should just put the mute list in the people panel as a tab
	Latif Khalifa	I'm suggesting that whover placed mute list where it is today needs to get fired ASAP.
	Q Linden	I hate the term "industry standard"
08:09	Stickman	I think the issue is that several useful items were demoted to the "gear" menu, which is hidden in specific sidebar pages. Might make some sense logically for organization, but they get lost if you don't know where to look.
	Q Linden	It's a way to avoid making your own decision
	Kalista Arliss	The nice thing about standards is that there are some many of them.
	Oz Linden	Let's pause for a moment and see if Latif can summarize what he was trying to do and what he had to do to do it, but leave out the invective
	Q Linden	But we separated local chat from personal chat for a very good reason, and I don't think it's gotten less good
	Latif Khalifa	Q, I don't really care about the excuses, I've heard them all. I'm just asking how long are you willing to persist in a bad decision and one of the top requested feaatures
08:10	Q Linden	Latif, can you tone down the rhetoric just a bit, please?
	TriloByte Zanzibar	fail on leaving out the invective, Latif.
	Latif Khalifa	No, if you don't like the tone, I can leave
	Q Linden	Your choice.
	Deej Kasshiki	Maybe I can make a comment here, please?
08:11	Q Linden	Go, Deej
	Latif Khalifa	No its yours
	Oz Linden	Since Latif apparently doesn't want to have a productive discussion about his issue, please do
	Deej Kasshiki	One of the reasons that I remain attached to Snowglobe is the way chat is handled
	Q Linden	Specifically?
	Latif Khalifa	So you'd rather see the product fail than implement some of the most wanted features because of its design purity?
	Deej Kasshiki	I find the model in V2 to be combersome for an experienced user and I prefer the scrolling console style
08:12	Techwolf Lupindo	LL has a bad habit of sticking by whatever desightion, bad or good. Unfortually, that means bad ones stick around for a long time. My hope is that LL changes that attudute sometime in the future.
	Jonathan	you mean storm-272 ?
	JIRA-helper	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/STORM-272 STORM-272 Old style scrolling up the screen "Console Chat", with no chat toasts, no icons of chatters
	Deej Kasshiki	I don't like having to see IMs in one part of the screen and chat in another and then type into yet anotyher
	Twisted Laws	some of us like the way V2 works tho, Latif. You aren't speaking for everyone.
	Q Linden	It's not about design purity. But sometimes people forget the reasons for the decisions
	Oz Linden	Sweeping generalizations about what LL decides or how are not useful.
	Q Linden	We had a constant problem with people saying things in local chat that were meant for IMs.
08:13	Latif Khalifa	Oz, I really don't care what you think
	Q Linden	It was causing people to leave LL because they made embarrasing mistakes
	Oz Linden	So you prefer the unified box style, Deej?
	Latif Khalifa	I'm here to ask Q why does he keep blocking soemthing that most people want
	Deej Kasshiki	Yes I do. As an experienced person who'se been here since 06 I really do
	Cummere Mayo	q youre losing MORE people becuase this design is horrible... and it really hasnt cut down the "embarrassing mistakes"
	Q Linden	First of all, I'm not the only decision maker. Second I'm trying to explain another point of view.
	Jonathan	Q, regargless of the tone of this discussion would you consider having a dockable chat box as an advanced option?
	Kalista Arliss	@latif rudeness is not productive in the slightest
	Gentle Heron	I find that for newcomers, it's easier to distinguish public chat from private IMs to have them separated. That doesn't mean it's easier for experienced users, although we DO sometimes make mistakes and get private chatter into a public venue with embarrassing results.
08:14	Kopile Hallard	human nature is to make mistakes
	Stickman	Pointing blame in a sinking ship isn't as useful as bailing. Trying to find the reason a decision was made is useful. But if the solution results in a new set of a problems, then it should be pointed out, and a new solution determined, based on the new set of goals. Simple problem solving.
	Deej Kasshiki	True, but the viewer is for EVERYONE, not just for new users
	Latif Khalifa	Gentle, sometimes I type in shell commands in Second Life chat. Nothing will ever prevent people from makeing mistakes.
	Oz Linden	That problem was a big part of why P2P or group chat was separated from local chat, Gentle
	Kopile Hallard	it is shown by IE when making applications to compensate for those mistakes, it is not always the best choice
	Oz Linden	(the "type in the wrong context" problem, that is)
08:15	Cummere Mayo	at the very least can we have the chat bar docable to the local chat? it wouldnt really make much differance in mistakes if theres one there, and we KEEP the ones in the im windows seperate
	Latif Khalifa	However desinging chat and IM to *force* seprate them is so mind-blowingly wriong decision
	Jonathan	If the chat box was docked perhaps there is some way to show where the message is going--a different color when inputting text (not that the different color would show later--just as an indicator)
	Kalista Arliss	Misfinstration
	Techwolf Lupindo	The proper fix was to make the tabs stand out different for active window vs. inactive window. Many time I started to type only to relized I was in the wrong window only after looking at the tab really closly while typing and seeing it was not active.
	Gentle Heron	I understand that to be the reason things were separated. I think the underlying question being asked is: Is it possible to have one viewer that works well both for newcomers and for experienced users.
	Q Linden	So I think we all agree that Viewer 2 made some decisions to benefit new users, and that some of those decisions were actually to the detriment of experienced users
	dabby Iceghost	why dont just copy interface from phoenix/emerald
	Latif Khalifa	I have typed "pwd" and "ls -lrt" here, should Second Life force by terminal program to close when it started?
	Q Linden	And a large part of what we've been trying to do with Snowstorm is address those issues
	TriloByte Zanzibar	an option to have them in the same floater would be good for some of the legacy users
	Gentle Heron	Snap, Q. the very same thought!
	Q Linden	one by one.
08:16	Oz Linden	great word :-)
	Cummere Mayo	q the thing is and i will say this honestly... ALLOT of new users dont like that the chatbar is seperate from the local chat...
	Deej Kasshiki	"legacy users" thanks for calling me a dinosaur LOL
	Cummere Mayo	especially those with disabilities that cannot tab between them or have issues splitting focus
	Kalista Arliss	I can't claim to have coined it, but it is useful.
	Latif Khalifa	So if someone was to volunteer optional docking to snowstorm you would drop the purity of desing reasoning and accept it?
	Q Linden	So as we've been talking about what to work on in Snowstorm, chat has never risen to the top of our problem list
	Kopile Hallard	is a dino
	Q Linden	Latif, don't put words in my mouth
08:17	Latif Khalifa	that was a question
	Q Linden	I never said that it was "design purity" that I was after
	Latif Khalifa	No you didn't. I did.
	Oz Linden	Let me see if I can ask a clarifying question.... Is the issue that there is more than one chat entry box (one per conversation), or is the issue that the local chat entry box is separate from the local chat scrolling window (when displayed) ?
	Deej Kasshiki	For me it's both
	Cummere Mayo	both
08:18	Latif Khalifa	Oz, you cannot chat and im at the same time wihtout using mouse
	Gentle Heron	both
	Latif Khalifa	bad design
	Kalista Arliss	both
	Oz Linden	Latif... you're getting boring
	Kopile Hallard	the number of icons down the bottom of my screen make im chat almost unmanagable >.>
	Latif Khalifa	(and it takes too much screen space)
	Q Linden	So are you all saying that the 1.23 chat interface is the epitome of great user interface design?
	Twisted Laws	the 2nd one for me as the window goes transparent when your cursor is in chat input
	Gentle Heron	I haven't figured out how to tab between the local chat entry bar and the IM chiclets
	Stickman	Heh.
	Deej Kasshiki	I'm saying that it's much easier to use for me
	Kopile Hallard	exactly Gentle
	Latif Khalifa	Q, I'm saying compated to v2 it is
	Oz Linden	the transparency is user-adjustable
	Latif Khalifa	I don't think you can design much worse
08:19		if you tried hard
	Twisted Laws	i like them all seperate... keeps me from making those mistakes so often
	Cummere Mayo	to me if you have it set up that ims are seperate then each box including local should have its own chat... but if you ahve them not set for seperate everything should share one and it should always be docked
	Kopile Hallard	they could have forced the use of an onscreen keyboard?
	Kalista Arliss	No OZ, but the current V2 design is further from perfect.
	Jonathan	Is the proposal to go back to the 1.23 format (as an option) or to design something else?
	TheBlack Box	o hno .. please not the same old v2-debate all over again ... the path can only be about making v2 better now ... everything else off the table please :)
	Deej Kasshiki	I find that I lose track of more info in the V2 design
	Oz Linden	Latif, if you can't discuss the issue other than to just keep repeating that you hate it and we're idiots, please just leave so that we can have a useful exchage of views
	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks	well, its better than the current chat. Having optsions like removing chat headder and combinding IM/Group chats together are idea, but it would be nice to combind local as well and have the same imput bar across the 3, like it is in V1... but as an option
	Stickman	Would it be possible to find some time to go through all the major elements of the Viewer 2 interface, find out what works and what doesn't, and focus on the most troublesome aspects? Has that been done yet?
	Kopile Hallard	pretty sure evolution is in the picture
	Q Linden	I completely disagree with you. I think that you can reasonably say that for heavy chatters, the V2 design is worse. I think that we can also say that for new users and light chatters, it's better.
	TriloByte Zanzibar	agreed, tbb, well said
08:20	Deej Kasshiki	But many people are heavy chatters, not just voicers Q
	Cummere Mayo	q it depends on the new user and light user
	Oz Linden	it's approximately what we've been doing here for 6 months, Stickman
	Gentle Heron	I'd really like to see the user testing data on this one.
	Latif Khalifa	My proposal was to allow docking of local chat and to reinstate ctrl-t and ctrl-w shortcuts. I know Q has philosophical issues with it. So I just want to know if he will block the effort to fix it from opensource side is all.
	Deej Kasshiki	I hardly ever use voice for example
	Cummere Mayo	some light users are only light users because the viewer is so inaccessible
	Latif Khalifa	As not to waste time.
08:21	Thickbrick Nolastname	s/heavy chatters/present in heavy chat situations (like this here chat thing)/g
	Cummere Mayo	(inaccessible meaning a pain in the but for users with certain accessibility requirements)
	Stickman	Has the information collected been organized publicly displayed? Or is it hidden within the Jira and requires digging it up? Someone who's been working directly with this could summarize it all in a blog post when that comes back online. I think it'd be a good idea.
	Q Linden	Agreed Deej. I do understand that -- especially among the people here -- there are heavy chatters.
	Latif Khalifa	Oz, if you want a fan club, rename your meetings.
	Techwolf Lupindo	Ask anyone in customer support, they are heavy chatters. :-)
08:22	Stickman	Information to combat unrest. Reasons and priorities to help people know what's being worked on first, why, and what's coming later.
	Q Linden	And Latif, I won't "block" a good design that doesn't break what we have
	Kalista Arliss	Latif, be polite please
	XanderCage Cale	If i may
	Q Linden	If there are options to reunify that work, let's see it.
	Kopile Hallard	break what we have?
	Latif Khalifa	Q, are you oposed to see possibility of local chat being docked with the rest of the comversations?
	Cummere Mayo	q why cant it be an option?
	Q Linden	I'm not opposed to the possibility as long as we can have the default be not docked
08:23	Latif Khalifa	I don't care about the default
	Q Linden	Yes, but I do.
	Kalista Arliss	One would hope that the option for flexability would alwasy be the choice.
	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks	^
	Q Linden	So if you give me a patch that breaks our current system, I wouldn't be able to take that
	Cummere Mayo	q and if most people want the default the other way?
	TheBlack Box	i think local chat appearing like a group-chat taht alway has its icon there on the right side ... and no sub-bar embedded input-field ... thats not a bad idea
08:24	Stickman	An idea was brought up on the dev list regarding a "modular" client. Break out each section of the viewer -- renderer, chat, inventory, etc -- and allow people to create custom modules that plug into the main core. Less for LL to maintain (just keep the core and a generic version of each module up and running), and theoretically easier to mod. Is that a possible solution to some of these issues? It's a big design change.
	Kalista Arliss	and that the descision to override the default would persist across sessions?
	Kopile Hallard	default - easy for new users, but adjustments to allow exprienced users to better customise their viewer environment?
	Cummere Mayo	I actually like local and ims seperated but im in a far far minority on that
	Oz Linden	There are some aspects of UI design that the Snowstorm team doesn't have the final word on
	Deej Kasshiki	As long as there would be an option I could get past the other annoyances I have with V2. To me chat is the dealbreaker.
	Q Linden	Right, Kopile. This is legitimately a place where an option would make sense.
	XanderCage Cale	if i may say somthing
	Oz Linden	in many cases, that will include what the defaults on options are
	TriloByte Zanzibar	I don't think you are, cummer, and I prefer them separate as well
	Q Linden	As you know, I'm opposed to throwing in options willy-nilly
	Gentle Heron	If user testing data show that the current method assists new users, then it should be the default. Experienced users are much more likely to be able to quickly and easily change a default to a preferred option. And options are always useful, in my opinion and experience, as long as you can find them easily.
	TriloByte Zanzibar	*cummere
	Q Linden	XanderCage, please speak
08:25	Latif Khalifa	yes, and killing off menu items
	XanderCage Cale	I have been in SL since 2007 as to chat i prefer V2
	Latif Khalifa	my run in with viewer 2 this mornign started when i tried to help people find the mute list
	XanderCage Cale	but have an issue with the amout of lag in the group chat
	Latif Khalifa	just killing off menu items for the sake of having fewer menus is as smart as killing off prefs
		for the sake of it
	TheBlack Box	Latif have you used v2 much prior to that ?
	Cummere Mayo	agrees that mute needs to be a top menu item
	Kalista Arliss	Xander, that is very NOT viewer related
08:26	Q Linden	Group chat lag is being addressed right now
		and it's not a viewer issue
	Oz Linden	The group chat lag is a server issue, and one that is being worked on hard
	Cummere Mayo	we also really need our admin menu back
	Latif Khalifa	tbb, i used viewer2 since alpha4 in sept 2009
	TriloByte Zanzibar	wasn't it on the friends list panel, where it's been for a year?
	XanderCage Cale	i was raising the full chat issue
	Kopile Hallard	v2 has admin under develop iirc
	Gentle Heron	I believe part of the issue here is experienced helpers who are NOT experienced in V2. The V2 mute list isn't hard to find at all. It's just isn't in the same place as those experienced in V1 expect to find it.
	Oz Linden	There is an entirely new group chat system in the works that will fix that, but that's not the subject of this meeting
	TheBlack Box	yes ... group-chat is supposed to go XMPP/Jabber right ? thats exciting and positive :)
	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks	admin menu is still there...
	XanderCage Cale	i personnaly find V2 easier to use
08:27		and prefer that
	Kopile Hallard	Gently can you access the mute list via a keyboard shortcut?
	Gentle Heron	no Kopilo, nor can I tab to it.
	Kopile Hallard	not that you could before
	Stickman	There are many features of V2 that I do not like. There are a few that I do. And some that are different but I don't mind.
	Latif Khalifa	Gentle, you think opening people panel, and looking under the gear on the bottom is easily discoverable in sutation when you just clicked "mute" on on object dialog by mistake?
	Gentle Heron	and no, you couldn't before either
	Jonathan	Keyboard shortcuts are being worked on too--a whole new system
	Q Linden	Kopile, one of the things we're working on this sprint is a unification of the keyboard system that will allow arbitrary key assignment
	Kopile Hallard	yeap which is a problem imgo
	Gentle Heron	Latif, I don't like the whole concept of "discoverable"
	Kopile Hallard	yeah
	Q Linden	It's probably going to take a few cycles to get it all in there.
	Stickman	Since I am obviously the majority of users in SL, I believe my way is right. I'll send you a bill.
	Gentle Heron	I prefer "intuitive"
08:28		but it is where it is, and it's not really hard to explain how to find it
	F L I P	I find V2 harder to use, because I constantly have this feeling that there's "too much stuff" on my screen. Maybe that's because there are communication elements in 2 different places
	Thickbrick Nolastname	The Block List isn't where expirienced *computer* users would expect to find it. It's hidden in a context emnu which isn't a context menu.
	Cummere Mayo	im on 2.7 the show admin menu is ALWAYS greyed out
	Latif Khalifa	Gentle, which ever way. Do you think "i just hit mute by mistake, how do i undo it" interface in V2 is usable?
	Q Linden	Cummere, that sounds like a bug
	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks	debug setting: AdmninMenu <- set it to true
08:29		Admin*
	Q Linden	Please report it. :)
	Jonathan	Latif, when you block something the sidebar opens and you can see what you have just done
	Twisted Laws	you can usually unblock someone the same way you blocked them to start with
	Cummere Mayo	its already reported ><
	Q Linden	Anyway -- seems like there's another user story here that we should take a look at
	Jonathan	There are some problems with the block code and fixes for them are about to come out
08:30	Q Linden	"As a user, if I accidentally mute someone or something, I should be able to unmute it just as easily."
	Kopile Hallard	agreed
	Kalista Arliss	*nods nods*
	Stickman	Yes.
	Q Linden	Jonathan, are those fixes in? I'm not sure yet.
	Kopile Hallard	same ui path to reverse something generally is a good idea
	Q Linden	Agreed, Kopile.
	Jonathan	Q, 1 or 2 are, 1 or 2 are pending
	Gentle Heron	Who is going to write up the JIRA that Q just proposed?
08:31	Thickbrick Nolastname	It probably should be a separate story from "I muted myself, halp!" that's the result of Jonatahan's bug, but there are still people walking around not seeing their own chat.
	Q Linden	Yeah
	Jonathan	I wonder how many people have muted themselves and are going around confused right now
08:32	Latif Khalifa	the problem i had this morning is "the product you sold me doesn't work". turns out they hit "mute" by mistake and myted themselves which also mutes all the scirpted object dialogs.
	Jonathan	It would be nice if that could be fixed automatically somehow
	Oz Linden	is there ever a good reason to mute yourself? should that be impossible?
	Thickbrick Nolastname	there are 4-5 duplicate jiras about it, at least.
	Deej Kasshiki	I think that should be impossible, yes
	Jonathan	Oz, you can mute yourself due to a bug that is being fixed
	Kalista Arliss	Oz, not good reason that I can think of
	Kopile Hallard	only reason I can imagine is when you have had enough of yourself?
	Latif Khalifa	mute yourself only gives support nightmare for people selling scripted objects in SL
08:33	Vincent Nacon	Oz, not everyone is that bright enough to realize what not to do
	Latif Khalifa	I cannot count the number of times I got this "your object doesn't show me the menu"
	Stickman	Looking at self-muting. All self-muting jiras are closed as duplicate, with no original.
	Q Linden	gonna write an email to see if we can proactively turn that off in the database.
	Oz Linden	that's not what I meant... I meant should we make sure that if you try to mute yourself that it does not work
	Stickman	https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/STORM-951 seems to be the "original."
	JIRA-helper	STORM-951 Accidental Self-Muting/Self-Blocking
	Deej Kasshiki	Yes
	Kalista Arliss	@Q brilliant
	Latif Khalifa	Oz, if you ask me you should.-
	Q Linden	Stickman, I guess that means they're all dups of each other!
	Jonathan	Oz, you cannot normally mute yourself; thecode checks for that
	Q Linden	:)
08:34	Stickman	There oughta be one original that's not closed, so the bug can be fixed.
	Latif Khalifa	It's something viewer 2 specific, I never had this problem with people that use other viewers
		they seem to be prone to self-muting
08:35	Jonathan	There are about 4 mute/block jiras either in work or just finished right now
	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks	theres been cases where people have muted themselves on other viewers also
	Latif Khalifa	Jonathan, let me guess, another side effect of botching display names on?
	Cummere Mayo	yeah ive managed to do it to myself even
		ive never figured out how
	Q Linden	It's houldn't be a viewer-side issue at all
		but it might be
08:36	Cummere Mayo	i didnt even click ignore or block on anything or anyone at the time
	Jonathan	Not to do with display names; it is to do with the mute Type and what is filled in to the mute field
	Latif Khalifa	I have only empirical evidence that it is viewer related.
	Kopile Hallard	I would imagine the check to be in the viewer to prevent unessicary network traffic
08:37	Q Linden	but we store the info, so there's net traffic anyway
	Kalista Arliss	even if it's a viewer issue the underlying code in the server/database should disallow it.
	Stickman	23 minutes.
08:38	Jonathan	The mute database only files what is sent to it. If wrong data is sent then you have a problem later.
	Latif Khalifa	mute list is a bit weird. it's sent to and from the server using xFer prorocol and is basically treated as plain text file.
	Oz Linden	I think we've gotten a couple of good action items on the self-muting issue.... someone got another one?
	Stickman	Group notices.
	Oz Linden	what about them?
	Stickman	They cut off the person who sent it, they're too small, and too easy to dismiss. When trying to read/expand them, I've closed them more than once.
08:39	Oz Linden	(many things about them are server issues)
	Jonathan	Oz, my impediment I am waiting to clear is for muting
	Gentle Heron	I had assumed group chat went to everyone who was online when they were sent. Apparently this isn't so. How is it decided who in the group gets access to open group chat?
		or is that random?
	Oz Linden	notices are not chat, so let's stick to notices
08:40	Twisted Laws	if you close a group chat window, you will not get messages until someone opens a new group chat
	Q Linden	Right
	Cummere Mayo	and there are admin ways for officers and owners to remove chat privledges (though they dont stick) so that can affect it too gentle
08:41	Gentle Heron	none of the above... but stick to notices, it was posted first here.
	Jonathan	There has been so much typing--what is the proposal now?
	Latif Khalifa	It's not really a viewer issue Gentle. Group chat backend is just horribly broken, has been since 2007 or so. There is some movement to fix that on the server end now
	Stickman	IS there a way to increase the size of a group notice, or is it just the tiny little thing that shows up only?
	Oz Linden	could you clarify what you mean by "cut off the person who sent it" , Stickman?
08:42	Stickman	If the username is a decent length, it won't show the entire name. It can be difficult to tell who sent it.
	Cummere Mayo	the name is almost never included anymore and when it is, its only partial
	Stickman	Besides going into the group sidebar and checking notices manually, I don't know of a way to see who sent it.
08:43	TriloByte Zanzibar	the toast notification for a group mesage doesn't have enough room to display the user name in a lot of cases
	Jonathan	Long names not fitting in a small space is an issue in many places
	Gentle Heron	Do you all mostly try to figure out the group notice from the little message that a notice is pending, or do you go to the group profile to pick it up in full?
	Stickman	However, it's been a while since I got a group notice in v2. Has this stuff been changed in the last version?
	Q Linden	No
		I agree -- this is an area that needs work
		Redesigning the Notice dialog would be just an XML change, and a welcome contribution if someone wants to try
	Stickman	Besides my frustrations with the sidebar, group notices would be my biggest problem with viewer 2.
08:44	TriloByte Zanzibar	either the toast needs to get bigger, or the user name needs to be displayed in smaller type so it fits perhaps
	Jonathan	Make the notice dialog wider?
	Stickman	Well, that and the super laggy script windows.
	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks	or word wrap the name
	Latif Khalifa	Another problem with notices: I have right now 14 notification. I want to see a group notice, I click on 14 in the bottom right, gives me a list. I click on a notice it shows it briefly for couple of seconds, then it vanishes. In ordere to keep it on the screen I have to hover mouse over it after clicking the list. I find this to be very un-intuitive.
	Stickman	I think a "quick" solution to the group notice issue would be to make a button that pops the notice up in the sidebar.
08:45		I don't like it. I'd prefer to expand the window by dragging it larger. But that'd probably be the fastest solution.
	Kalista Arliss	Smaller type is a lose.
	TriloByte Zanzibar	a notification feed, perhaps - https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-24213?
	JIRA-helper	VWR-24213 Display Notifications as a scrollable feed (instead of series of popups)
	Cummere Mayo	I agree with latif on that
	Jonathan	Resizeable Notifications then?
	Cummere Mayo	its incredibly frustrating
	Q Linden	Ah, Trilobyte, I actually like that idea
	Stickman	And make them a window instead of a toast?
	Q Linden	I'd like to see us do that
	Stickman	(That's what it's called, right?)
	Oz Linden	yes, it's a toast (silly name)
08:46	TriloByte Zanzibar	yeah, nice use of the panel space
	Q Linden	so, the easy fix is a change to theXML for the notification
	Stickman	I like Trilobyte's solution the best, yes.
	Q Linden	a much more complex fix is to turn it into a window
	Wolfpup	Q the scrollable notices feed is one of the things that is in the 'starlight skin'
	TriloByte Zanzibar	toast... cuz it pops up, I imagine :)
	Q Linden	and an even more complex fix is a feed
	Gentle Heron	Wait. What was the user testing data that resulted in that particular design decision?
	Latif Khalifa	LOL clickin on that link in 2.5 gave me https://jira.secondlife.com/rest/api/1.0/shortcuts/587/59d4798a6c3a58c3249b1ca1785a2dc0/shortcuts.js?
	Q Linden	I never saw that in starlight, but I haven't looked at it lately
	Latif Khalifa	bunch of JSON data
08:48		this scrolling thingie would not work for stuff like scripted object dialogs
	Q Linden	gentle, you know that not every individual design decision is user tested. We did (and continue to do) quite a bit of user testing, but not every feature.
	Kalista Arliss	No and those are different
	Oz Linden	there are many different kinds of communication, and clearly no one paradigm is appropriate for all of them
08:49	Kopile Hallard	btw does the editor still word wrap with lsl?
	draconis.neurocam	the script edit window, yes
	Latif Khalifa	does clicking on that jira link work for anyone (if you use internal browser) in viewr 2.5?
	Kopile Hallard	>.<
		no way to turn that off still?
08:50	Stickman	I use an external browser. I'm on 2.5. Lemme change it to internal.
	Oz Linden	I think we've got two suggestions: 1) short term, change the initial group notice from a toast to a popup that is resizable and has and explicit dismiss button, and 2) design a scrollable group notice panel with history
	Cummere Mayo	i dont know about internal it failed on external
		(dont use my internal becuase with cookies off nothing works on it)
	Q Linden	So I have one more thing I have to talk about
	Cummere Mayo	sounds good to me oz
	Stickman	Where do I change that option?
08:51	TriloByte Zanzibar	(prefs -> setup)
	Stickman	I can live with that, Oz?
	Kalista Arliss	@QZ, that is what I heard
	Latif Khalifa	Stick -> prefs -> setup -> web
	Twisted Laws	popups are what we had in v1, v2 is better with them not interrupting you
	Oz Linden	I'll write those up as related issues
	TriloByte Zanzibar	jira link worked for me with internal or external browser
	Stickman	2.5, clicking on the Jira link gives me SSL handshake failed.
	Q Linden	I am leaving Linden Lab as of this Friday, going on to the next thing. This is my last Viewer user group meeting as a Linden.
	Oz Linden	that's a known problem -
08:52	Twisted Laws	err... not forcing you to deal with them
	Cummere Mayo	o.O
	Jonathan	ooo
	Latif Khalifa	Stick, try clicking "open in external" on the bottom?
	Cummere Mayo	what?
	FERRET	wots the next thing?
	Latif Khalifa	So I'm hitting all v2.5 issues all at once this morning? ;)
	Stickman	External works fine.
	Q Linden	A startup I can't talk about yet.
	Twisted Laws	be sad to see you go :(
	FERRET	ah ok
	Kalista Arliss	Oh, I'm sorry that you're going and wish you well in your next job.
	Deej Kasshiki	Good luck in your next endeavor Q
	draconis.neurocam	who will take your place q? also sorry to see you go
	Q Linden	Thank you!
08:53	FERRET	sl for ipad maybe?
	TriloByte Zanzibar	sorry to hear you're leaving, Q, but best wishes with the next thing
	Stickman	I assume you've already got something lined up, Q? I hope it works well for you. :)
	Q Linden	The internal succession is a little up in the air right now. Rod and his staff are still working things out.
	Jonathan	I wish you the best Q
	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks	youll be missed, Q
	Cummere Mayo	Best of luck q. you will be missed, and if you stick around as a resi, youre welcome to friend me.
08:54	Q Linden	My next thing is not definitive yet, but I hope it will happen.
	Vincent Nacon	now I can stop being confused between Q Linden and Qarl Linden from time to time
	Stickman	Wild new frontier. Good luck to you, then!
	Gentle Heron	Step forth boldly, Q.
	Q Linden	Heh, Gentle. You got it.
	FERRET	meshies!
08:55	Stickman	Five minutes.
08:56	Vincent Nacon	4 now
	Twisted Laws	a moment of silence for Q?
	Cummere Mayo	q I hope you will keep in touch. I enjoy debating with you :P
	Q Linden	You'll proibably see some JIRA churn as I reassign things htat have been in my Q(ueue)
08:57	Stickman	So about the script editor. The option to use an external editor was added. Will the script editor be improved? It lags bad if you past a dozen kilobytes of text in it.
	Kalista Arliss	lol
	Oz Linden	you mean will the external editor be improved?
	Stickman	And will the paradigm of support for external editors continue? Texture editing, sculpty and prim editing, mesh editing, sounds, etc.
	Latif Khalifa	Stick, that's another one viewer2 specific problem. You get FPS cut 80%% with text editor.
	TriloByte Zanzibar	does it also do the same thing that the notecards do with the cursor getting out of whack?
	Stickman	I mean the internal editor. So it's easier to use.
	XanderCage Cale	Q what will 007 do with you
08:58	Oz Linden	that's too general a question to answer, I'm afraid
	XanderCage Cale	without
	Cummere Mayo	lol xander
	Oz Linden	I am not aware of anyone working on the internal editor at the moment
08:59		would be happy to hear proposals for improvement if they come with contributions
	Kopile Hallard	by contributions you mean patches?
	Stickman	If only I were skilled to offer actual contributions. Alas, I lack both skill and time.
	draconis.neurocam	is the multiline comment thing still on your gigantic to do list oz?
	Q Linden	This is kinda why we put the external editor feature in
	Oz Linden	by contributions I mean someone committed to doing the work - which is more than just throwing a patch over the wall, but yes, patches is certainly part of it
09:00	Twisted Laws	it seems to be font related in the editor.... i've meant to look at it forever but Kelly may already know about how to fix it.
	Q Linden	It's not something we're ever likely to make good
	Jonathan	Stickman, not everyone has to be able to program -- just having ideas is good, too.
	Q Linden	Just because we have higher priorities
		So use a tool designed fo rhte job
		and tighten the integration
	Vincent Nacon	ok his time is up
	Kopile Hallard	cold :p
09:01	Vincent Nacon	muhahahaha!
	Q Linden	Ok, I gotta go.
	draconis.neurocam	farewell q and oz
	Oz Linden	I've got another meeting... must run... thank you all for coming - I'll post the transcript this afternoon
	Q Linden	Thanks all of you for your effort, your time, and your passiion
	Stickman	Everyone has ideas. Some are useful. Knowing the skills to implement the ideas can get you hired. Following through and completing an idea keeps you from getting fired.
	TriloByte Zanzibar	I've got to run as well, Q it has been a pleasure. Hope to see you in-world as a civilian sometime
	Twisted Laws	thanks for all your time Q
	Kopile Hallard	enjoy q