Viewer Evolution User Group/Archive/2011-03-23

08:03	Oz Linden	Hi alll... sorry I'm late
08:04	draconis.neurocam	hello oz
	Wolfpup	Oz i have VC10autobuild working now for the most part on my system
	draconis.neurocam	oh wow vadim
	FERRET	hiya
	Twisted Laws	hello
	TriloByte Zanzibar	good morning
08:05	Oz Linden	Agenda is at https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Viewer_Evolution_User_Group
		feel free to add to the end
		STORM-809 Official Linux builds no longer built with c-ares support - causes big performance pauses
	JIRA-helper	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/STORM-809 STORM-809 Official Linux builds no longer built with c-ares support - causes big performance pauses
08:06	Oz Linden	I left this on from last week to let you know that we think it's fixed in the autobuild branch
		which will merge to viewer-development next week
	TriloByte Zanzibar	there are still pauses and stutters
	Oz Linden	well, there will always be more performance issues, but the big one that we think was most of the problem is fixed
08:07	TriloByte Zanzibar	I couldn't say exactly why, but it's definitely still happening as of 224836
	Cummere Mayo	k added oz
	Oz Linden	looking at your VWR issue, TB
08:08		waiting for jira
	Cummere Mayo	or well i did add... wha
08:09	TriloByte Zanzibar	I posted another screen shot last night, the debug console is showing a diferent series of errors in place of LLObjectMedia errors now
	Oz Linden	have you tried this on the Project Viewer - VS2010 TriloByte?
08:10	TriloByte Zanzibar	no, I haven't had the time to do any of the project tests lately, that was from 224836 viewer development
	Oz Linden	right ... the fix (if it really is one) is not yet there... it is in the Project Viewer
		see https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Downloading_test_builds
08:11	draconis.neurocam	hello wolf
	Oz Linden	which I think covers item #2 as well
	TriloByte Zanzibar	ah, I see. thanks for the link, will try and give it a go after the meeting this morning
	Wolfpup	Oz, Merov is having issues with the mac version of the client because of some new mac libs he thinks
	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে	hi Wolf
	Wolfpup	hey wolf
	Oz Linden	VWR-24731 add new changes in gpu_table.txt/support for new and recent GPU's (added by TriloByte Zanzibar)
	JIRA-helper	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-24731 VWR-24731 Add new and changes to GPU_Table.txt
08:12	Oz Linden	reading
	TriloByte Zanzibar	I know on the Mac side, the viewer doesn't recognize any system/GPU released since October 2010, and looking at the JIRA last night it looks like it's an issue for some of the newer Windows cards too
08:13	Oz Linden	I'm all in favor of a better way to deploy the GPU table.
		source is actually not the right way, though - the real GPU table is read from a web resource now (the source is a fallback)
	FERRET	oh can someone find a compiler switch that gets rid of the majority of the compiler inserted hardware interrupts?
	Wolfpup	it is only because they are not added to the table the same for the cpu's
	Oz Linden	off topic people
08:14	TriloByte Zanzibar	right, but both are outdated, oz
	Oz Linden	yes, I know
	FERRET	no its not its relevent to compiling :P
	Oz Linden	I'll try to get a converesation started about how these updates can be done, and see if I can invite someone here next week about it.
08:15	TriloByte Zanzibar	excellent, thanks
		if there's any research info that needs to be done (specs/info on newer cards, etc, let me know, I can probably get all that pulled fairly easily
	Oz Linden	that issue is now STORM-1100
	JIRA-helper	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/STORM-1100 STORM-1100 Add new and changes to GPU_Table.txt
	Oz Linden	and mine
08:16		that's great...
	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে	"yours"?
	Oz Linden	assigned to me so that I don't forget about it :-)
	TriloByte Zanzibar	get a newer machine, Oz?
	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে	ic
	TriloByte Zanzibar	ah ok, thanks
	Oz Linden	VWR-7677 Also STORM-761 Windlight (added by TriloByte Zanzibar)
	JIRA-helper	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/STORM-761 STORM-761 As a SL developer, I want to help unblock development of Windlight Estate Settings code so that we can move forward with this feature development
		http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-7677 VWR-7677 Estate / Sim Windlight preset / day cycle options
08:17	Oz Linden	I've got someone working on this on a private branch now
	TriloByte Zanzibar	sorry to keep asking, but people keep asking
08:18	Oz Linden	NO -- Keep asking!
		I want this myself
	TriloByte Zanzibar	excellent. should you need people to test, I'm sure I can help rustle some volunteers, plus I'll work on carving out the time myself
	Oz Linden	in fact, the dev was testing it yesterday here and crashed this sim, so apparently it's not quite ready :-)
	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে	why on a private branch? (I guess private == not publicly visible/readable)
	Cummere Mayo	lol
	Qie	small price to pay. :p
08:19	Oz Linden	correct, boroondas
		I can't get into why it's not open now, but it will be shortly
	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে	ok, thx
	Cummere Mayo	well when you get ready to test, im sure you might be able to talk the phoenix team into testing it for you mass scale oz its something we all want
	Oz Linden	I've got a meeting later today with my new boss, and this is on my list....
	Cummere Mayo	looks around for jessica
08:20	TriloByte Zanzibar	that's cool. I know there are a number of different bits and branches brewing internally, I look forward to seeing it bubble up
	Wolfpup	Oz yesterday i found an object over @ merovs office that had so many scripts in it that it might have been what was causeing problems her
	oobscure	(new boss = Bagman ?)
	Oz Linden	send me details by mail, Wolfpup
08:21		Yes, Bagman
		at least, I believe he's my new boss... formal change isn't effective yet
	oobscure	( presentation blog post by Bagman for those who didn't read it http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Featured-News/Hello-from-Bagman-Linden-the-New-VP-of-Engineering/ba-p/768215 )
	Oz Linden	He's visiting the Boston office this week, so other than my meetings I may be in world a little less than usual
08:22		Anyway... I will leave the Windlight Estate Settings item on the agenda for next week too, and hopefully will have some good news for you by then
	TriloByte Zanzibar	great, thanks
	Qie	(off-topic: Hoping Bagman has a keep appreciation for the value of open source development)
08:23	Oz Linden	(me too
		VWR-25260
	JIRA-helper	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-25260 VWR-25260 Ability to synch landmarks between alts on the same computer
	Cummere Mayo	reads the blog post quickly and can only think holy**** we have a legend ^^
08:24		is that jira clear enough oz or want me to explain?
	TriloByte Zanzibar	(if anybody has a chance of wrapping their head around the challenges of concurrency & lag, it's the everquest guy :) )
	Oz Linden	Hmmm......
	draconis.neurocam	(most of the lindens have amazing backgrounds if you look into them on linked in or similar ive noticed)
08:25	Oz Linden	This is an interesting thought
		My first reaction is that it probably is not really a viewer issue
	Cummere Mayo	syncking landmarks would be a server thing?
08:26	Oz Linden	I'd think that this would be just one aspect of a wider set of features that would be possible if there were an explicit relationship between alts
	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে	it could be done either purely viewer or purely server side
		hmm ... general relationship: SVC-6212
	JIRA-helper	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-6212 SVC-6212 Create Master Account Name, Linking to Avatar Names
	draconis.neurocam	it would be done by just the ability to export and import landmarks as well i would think, without adding alt relating functionality
	Cummere Mayo	ild like to avoid explicit alt relationships oz
	Wolfpup	i think it would have to be done server side with option setting viewer side
08:27	Oz Linden	Yes, that's true, but for example, if the service explicitly knew which avs were alts for the same underlying accounts, they could share L$, permissions, etc
	Cummere Mayo	jessica and i were discussing this, we could and would be intrested in doing this purely client side
	Wolfpup	because you have to share assets between the alts
	Qie	I'm wondering if Landmarks have a web-based future, in which case this might be done differently. (Although the asset is quite special for scripts, so wouldn't want them to get diluted.)
	FERRET	i thought it was kept seperate to minimise griefer alts passing stuff?
	TriloByte Zanzibar	careful though, sharing L$ balances could be both a good or a bad thing
08:28	Cummere Mayo	not everyone is keen on making alts explicitly linked oz
	Oz Linden	Thinking out loud here.... I don't think that there are any permissions on Landmark objects....
	Wolfpup	it would be best to kep them seperate and if you want an alt to have seomthing the drop it to them
08:29	TriloByte Zanzibar	perhaps a landmark dropbox folder
	Cummere Mayo	doing it viewer side would also allow syncing between roommates, and partners/spouces
	draconis.neurocam	not only are there not permissions on landmarks, but if i remember right the ability to prevent making them was turned off on the server i thought
	Oz Linden	I understand that, Cummere... I'm not suggesting that shared alts would be the only way to do it, just that if you had it then lots of cool things are possible
08:30		(and bear in mind that LL has many ways of guessing which accounts are alts in any event)
	oobscure	Draconis: you can create landmarks of place X only if your avatar is in that place X - if that was you meant. I think Andrew recently confirmed this.
	Cummere Mayo	on the other hand you got lots of risks linking them.... i remember the days with some people really abused power and would ban accounts at will.... imagine how much WORSE that would be if accounts were expressly linked. or if LL was hacked again?
	draconis.neurocam	right, but there used to be a checkbox in the land options, to stop the ability to create them is what i meant opensource
08:31	oobscure	it's not a small limitation, but apparently not easy to work around either
		ah ok
	Oz Linden	So let me ask this.... how do you share landmarks now?
	Cummere Mayo	box em and pass them
	Oz Linden	and what's bad about that?
	Cummere Mayo	only pracital way to do it if you have 1000+ landmarks
		it takes FOREVER
	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে	a lot of help groups have notecards with embedded landmarks
08:32	Oz Linden	define forever... what takes time?
	Cummere Mayo	you can only transfer i think 34 to a box at a time
	oobscure	notecards with 100-200 landmarks only become hard to use and are not 100%% reliable. sometimes you can't save them.
08:33	Oz Linden	does anyone know where that limit comes from?
	Cummere Mayo	so moving 1000+ lms to a box takes litterlay hours
		its an across the board asset limit
	Oz Linden	can you be more specific?
		a limit on what?
08:34	Cummere Mayo	if you transfer any type or mix of assets to another avatar or to a box, you can only transfer around 34ish? at at time... otherwise you get a popup that says you have too many
	Oz Linden	ok....
08:35	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে	http://community.secondlife.com/t5/English-Knowledge-Base/Limits/ta-p/700099#Inventory
	Oz Linden	so suppose that limit were removed.... (hypothetically)
	Cummere Mayo	theres all kinds of reasons for the limit im told
	Oz Linden	thanks Boroondas
	oobscure	anyway .. these user cases seem to me .. a bit .. limited ? that is, maybe not many of us have to deal with moving thousands of landmarks?
08:36	Oz Linden	I'm pretty sure that with the new asset system, any limits that were a function of packet size could now be made _much_ larger
	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে	new =? http based?
08:37	Oz Linden	well, I'm wondering if the real issue is moving inventory items in general ?
	draconis.neurocam	i just made a box with 110 notecards, im going to log in an alt and try to transfer it
	Oz Linden	yes, the new inventory system is HTTP based
	draconis.neurocam	err
		landmarks
		not notecards
	Cummere Mayo	you can transfer that easy after you loaded it draconis
		its loading it that takes time
08:38	Tenyene Beaumont	i have the same problem with textures, simply trying to put them in boxes trying to get them out of my main inventory
	Qie	it does seem more general than just landmarks
	draconis.neurocam	you said there was a limit though?
	Cummere Mayo	to transfer into the box
	draconis.neurocam	oh
	Oz Linden	and it takes a long time because you have to do them 30-something at a time?
	draconis.neurocam	thats what i misunderstood
	Cummere Mayo	yeah oz
	draconis.neurocam	the amount that can be added at once
		alright that makes sense
	Cummere Mayo	i dont think i have quite a 1000 lms though i wouldnt be totally surprised if i did...
08:39		but i do have at least several hundred on each of my more used avis
		it affects more lms for me then anything else cause i have lots and lots of no xfer stuff
	Oz Linden	My understanding is that with the new asset system, any given folder will (for the time being at least) be limited to something like 10K items
08:40	Wolfpup	i have close to that if not more but a lot of them are dups
	TriloByte Zanzibar	I can't even comprehend 10k items loose in a single folder... gah!
08:41	Cummere Mayo	yeah folder size was never limited before
		thats gonna.... hurt
	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে	10k direkt items or counting recoursively (i.e. including items in subfolders)?
	Cummere Mayo	lol
	Oz Linden	We've looked at some samples of what people have, and it's very very rare
	Cummere Mayo	including subfolders andrew said
	Oz Linden	no, onlly direct... a subfolder only counts as one item
	Cummere Mayo	wait they changed that then?
	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে	in that case, 10k is plenty
	TriloByte Zanzibar	if someone's got 10k in a single folder, they're likely already feeling a LOT of hurt in the current asset server system
	Oz Linden	that's my understanding
08:42	Qie	Oz's understanding is what I understood Andrew to have said, so... dunno.
	Cummere Mayo	trilo thats the price of being a merchant or a shopoholic in sl
		>.>
	Oz Linden	yes, in the current system a 10K folder would almost never load reliably, and would take _much_ longer than in the new system even if it did
08:43	TriloByte Zanzibar	cummere, that's the price of being a poorly organized merchant/shopaholic. use folders, reduce asset server lag
		and reduce instances where inventory disappears
	Cummere Mayo	well the largest inventory i have is currantly only 50k but then i have 2/3 of it still boxed
	Oz Linden	We're doing a lot of work on asset server lag...
08:44	Cummere Mayo	trilo i -am- semi organized... i still get extreme loss. ive lsot 10k items in the past year
	Oz Linden	There are two issues with loss....
	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে	In an ideal world, subfoldering would decrease lag as much as boxing
	Cummere Mayo	(real loss not percieved)
	Oz Linden	there probably are still cases of real loss.. .items that just go away due to some bug
08:45	oobscure	added an item to https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Viewer_Evolution_User_Group
	Oz Linden	but a more common problem at the moment is that in the UDP based system loading is unreliable, so it can appear that something is lost because it didn't load
		but it's really still there in the asset system and might come back
08:46	TriloByte Zanzibar	right, and keeping an eye on folder bloat (single folder with thousands of items in it) can help reduce that tremendously
	Oz Linden	I'll leave this item on the agenda for next time too, and try to find out if perhaps we can change some of those limits
	Cummere Mayo	ive had them jsut disapear, refuse to rez and not show back up in inventory, and allot simply just corrupt past saving
	Haravikk	Oh, I'm very late today! I just wanted to raise that Ansariel Hiller has added a dead simple patch to VWR-20449, was hoping it could be added sometime
	JIRA-helper	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-20449 VWR-20449 Using the -login parameter makes some keys and right click menus not work
08:47	Oz Linden	I'll come back to that Haravikk
	Cummere Mayo	but the other advantate this system has is that you can share with roomates and stuff easily even if youre unable to log in at the same time, or one of you is gone... without having to worry about them not getting the request
	Oz Linden	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-24764
	JIRA-helper	VWR-24764 Make parcel_media_agent_command and similar request user permission
	Haravikk	k, is hopefully just an import and apply job
08:48	Cummere Mayo	the other linked jira is probably better oz
		since the other one is the one that has a patch
		but they are related
	TriloByte Zanzibar	VWR-25062
	JIRA-helper	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-25062 VWR-25062 Add the ability to allow or deny domains that parcel owners want to play in the viewer's media and audio players
	Oz Linden	I've built a test viewer for that and sent some feedback to Tonya... have not heard back yet
	Cummere Mayo	tonya/simone's patch does land media only right now
08:49		we'd alsolike to see the moap too
	Oz Linden	I don't know yet whether we'll take some version of that... it's on my list to get diiscussed internally
		yes, I understand that, Cummerre
	Haravikk	Would it be possible to have such media interaction occur using the HTML-on-prim style hover widget? Rather than lots of ordinary pop-ups, you could just allow by selecting a button over the affected object(s)
08:50	Cummere Mayo	aww okay ... i know soft has asked about it too
	Qie	If you need ammunition for that discussion... there will be Media Privacy kiosks... it will be, uh, unfortunate if the only thing they can say for the Linden viewer is to just turn media off and leave it off.
	Oz Linden	One of the challenges of media filter is figuring out a UI that meets the need but isn't too disruptive
08:51	Cummere Mayo	honestly i think every main tvp is putting media filters in
	Oz Linden	I don't need any ammunition, thanks :-)
	Qie	(sorry)
	Cummere Mayo	at least i havent heard of one thats not yet
08:52		has been testing some of them for differant teams
	Oz Linden	Anyway... about all I can say about that at the moment is that it's very much on my radar
		https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-2085
	JIRA-helper	VWR-2085 Ctrl-Alt-F1 Hide/Show UI Incompatible with Linux
08:53	Oz Linden	We've got a big issue with keyboard shortcuts ... I'll get this linked to it
	oobscure	thanks
	Oz Linden	In the end, it's kind of hopeless to avoid all possible conflicts
08:54	TriloByte Zanzibar	ideally it'd be nice to be able to remap
		on the user end
	Techwolf Lupindo	Why even hard code it? Shouldn't there be keymaps files?
	Oz Linden	I think the ultimate answer is to allow shortcuts to be configured, but I don't know what the current thinking from the UX team is....
	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে	we need to namespace key combos :-D (wait, no, that might not be a good idea)
	oobscure	unfortunately looking for an optimal solution delayed an easy resolution to this
08:55	TriloByte Zanzibar	true, it would be nice for linux users to have that functionality. I can't imagine trying to shoot machinima without it
	Twisted Laws	i have a process question
08:56	Oz Linden	If you're happy with one of the answers in that jira, and it doesn't create some new conflict, and you'll package it properly for STORM review, I'll get that pulled in, opensource
	Adasyd Lang	uses an XBox controller and Total Game Control for Machinema :3
	Oz Linden	process questions properly belong at my meeting later today.... let's deal with the issue Haravick had....
08:57	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে	what makes VWR-2085 different from other conflicting shortcut issues, is that you cannot easily have a point-and-click workaround to turn the UI back on
	Oz Linden	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-20449
	JIRA-helper	VWR-20449 Using the -login parameter makes some keys and right click menus not work
	Haravikk	I raised it before, theorising it might be an issue with when the menus are initialised, turns out the edit menu only initialises properly if the login screen is display
08:58	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে	ouch
	Cummere Mayo	ooh nasty
	Haravikk	Ansariel Hiller added a patch to the issue with a fix, it's only a single line that needs moved up to be outside of an if-statement
	Jonathan	I can convert that patch to a repo unless someone else wants to
	draconis.neurocam	the keys are referenced in app_settings/keys.xml for anyone interested
	TriloByte Zanzibar	sounds like a potentially easy fix/win
	Oz Linden	that would be great Jonathan
08:59		I'll move to STORM and assign to you
	Jonathan	k
	Cummere Mayo	if it doesnt break anything that sounds like an aweseome thing to pull in
	Haravikk	Thanks Jonathan!
	Cummere Mayo	grins... "can you find us some more one line fixes now haravikk?
	Haravikk	I wish =P
09:00	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে	I have one for OPEN-39, but that's build related, thus OT here
	JIRA-helper	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/OPEN-39 OPEN-39 (standalone) bitpack_test.o: No such file or directory
09:01	Haravikk	Although VWR-18521 might be, is another command line issue
	JIRA-helper	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-18521 VWR-18521 Texture Memory (MB) preference refuses to set above 128mb
	Oz Linden	I'm moved that to STORM-1101 and assigned to JY
	JIRA-helper	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/STORM-1101 STORM-1101 Using the -login parameter makes some keys and right click menus not work
	Jonathan	ok, I'll work on it this afternoon
	Oz Linden	finding easy fixes is very good, and you should all appreciate that Jonathan is the master of moving them through the process
09:02		maybe I should have him give classes.....
	Cummere Mayo	believe me oz... I do
		lol
		even when he has me try and imput the fixes myself
		(though that tends not to work out so well)
	Oz Linden	My time is up, and I've got a busy day.... I will be at my other meeting this afternoon