Viewer Evolution User Group/Archive/2011-05-06

08:02	TriloByte Zanzibar	good morning
	Oz Linden	Hi everyone
	draconis.neurocam	hello oz
	Liisa Runo	whispers: hi all
08:03	Wolfpup	hey Oz
	Oz Linden	Before we get started.... Thank you to TriloByte for alerting us to the Mac issues on the mesh merge before we put it into viewer-development
		Doubtless saved all us Mac users much grief
		or at the very least, those who have newer Macs
08:04	TriloByte Zanzibar	no prob... sorry that it's holding things up, but thanks for putting the brakes on
		well, anything made in the last 3 years :)
08:05		I'll keep an eye out for any new PO builds, and will jump on testing them as soon as I can. So if Dave, Seraph, etc get something together they want to test blind, that's fine
08:06	Oz Linden	I'll pass that on
	TriloByte Zanzibar	I guess part of the problem is they don't actually have anything to test with
	Oz Linden	STORM-1100 is proceeding sporadically as my time allows....
	JIRA-helper	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/STORM-1100 STORM-1100 Add new and changes to GPU_Table.txt
	Oz Linden	yes, it is a part of the problemm
08:07		Windlight ....
08:08		We've got a new design in hand for how to configure windlight settings
	TriloByte Zanzibar	excellent
	Oz Linden	it is, I think, much easier to understand
	TriloByte Zanzibar	you mean a different type of advanced sky dialog?
08:09	Oz Linden	We did decide to leave the existing World->Sun menu choices for the 4 fixed settings just because too many people probably expect to use themmm
	TriloByte Zanzibar	yeah, I'd miss them too :)
08:10	Oz Linden	We've changed the paradigm a bit.... you first set up named settings for water and sky
		then you can create named day cycles using those settings
	TriloByte Zanzibar	makes sense
08:11	Oz Linden	then you either use those settings as personal settings, or you assign them to a region (assuming you have the Estate Manager permission)
	TriloByte Zanzibar	does it change the format of the windlight settings files at all? I know Torley and a few others have been circulating presets
	Oz Linden	I don't know if we'll change the formats .... tbd
08:12	TriloByte Zanzibar	So in effect, you could have different specific presets for different times of the day?
	Oz Linden	I don't think that's a high priority goal, though.
		yes, you can set up to 20 key frames in a day cycle, each with its own sky
	TriloByte Zanzibar	nice
	Oz Linden	(water is fixed throughout the day)
08:13		it transitions from one to the next continuously between them
		it also does a very nice transition when you cross region boundaries if the settings are different
08:14	TriloByte Zanzibar	I've seen how the transitions work in a couple videos, it really looks nice
	Oz Linden	takes a couple of seconds... it's kind of fun
	TriloByte Zanzibar	very smooth, I was a little worried it was going to be too abrupt
	Oz Linden	We've got a Project viewer that displays them but does not allow editing... I'm reviewing it to see if it seems safe to post publicly
08:15		but there are not too many regions that have anything set
	Thickbrick Sleaford	is there viewer code for this (server-side windlight) publicly available already?
	Oz Linden	and I'm not sure I want lots of tourists jumping in and out here to see them
08:16	TriloByte Zanzibar	I may be able to get a couple multi-region estates that are interested in partiicpating in tests
	Oz Linden	No, we have not posted the code yet because we are not sure that the server protocol will not change, and don't want any backwards compatibility issues
	Jonathan	Will there be testing on Aditi first?
	Oz Linden	Tell any region owners who would like to do testing to drop me a notecard to that effect
08:17	TriloByte Zanzibar	will do
	Oz Linden	We'll only do the testing on aditi if it turns out that we do need to change the protocol
		so far we have not, and the server side is already on agni
08:18		excuse me... need to step away for a moment....
08:19		I'm back... sorry about that
	Attica Bekkers	wb
	draconis.neurocam	sok, welcome back
08:20	Oz Linden	anyway... much fun....
		In the version that supports region settings, the default for all users will be to use them
08:21		with a check item to turn it off under World->Sun
	draconis.neurocam	i think its good to get people exposed to them like that, will enhance new users view of sl
08:22	Oz Linden	Our current plan is to disable the classic clouds at the same time, probably removing them completely and instead providing an equivalent that you can get free from Marketplace
		Classic clouds are really lag-inducing
08:23		WL clouds are much cheaper
	draconis.neurocam	do you have any idea what will happen to the scripting function that lets you get classic cloud data, llCloud
	Oz Linden	it will just return that there are no clouds
	Thickbrick Sleaford	Oh, that would be sad.
	draconis.neurocam	ah
	oobscure	wtf is wrong with this chair. it keeps asking me for a pose.
	Wolfpup	OZ the clasic clouds are not even in the current viewer
	Thickbrick Sleaford	so the scripted replacment will not reflect the sim's cellular automaton weather?
08:24	Oz Linden	I've been trying to figure out a way to detect whether or not that lsl function is actually used much, but have not found a way
		They are, they're just hard to find
	oobscure	hard to find and hard to disable. they suck so hard.
	Thickbrick Sleaford	loves setting draw distance to very far, zooming out and looking straight up at the coulds.
08:25	Oz Linden	Right... the cell weather essentially will only be doing wind as far as the viewer can tell
	Wolfpup	Oz open-52 removes the 'dead' code and the clasic clouds are part of that
	JIRA-helper	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/OPEN-52 OPEN-52 Superfluous source files
	oobscure	Wolf: Clouds tab in Adv Sky Editor
08:26	Oz Linden	WL still has clouds... they just are painted on the sky rather than being 3d particles
08:27		you can even change the apparent height... you just can't get above them
	Attica Bekkers	how sad
	oobscure	kittens die
	Attica Bekkers	true
08:28	Oz Linden	but as I said, they are essentially just a particle effect, and our thought is to package that effect as a generator you can pick up and place as needed
	Attica Bekkers	sees abright future fro someone marketing authentic old sl cloud emitters
	Wolfpup	there are going to be a lot of skyboxs that use the clasic clouds that will end up broken now
	Oz Linden	they'll just have to pick up a generator and install it
	Attica Bekkers	omg did my ab just scratch? lol
08:29	Oz Linden	I've got a cloud-shrouded mountaintop on a private region I'm fond of, so I'll make sure that works :-)
	Attica Bekkers	great
		if yuhave an alt it could sell em
08:30		or put it on the script library
	Oz Linden	Next item.... media filters....
		we've got a contribution for that.... I'm going to get it reviewed next week
08:31		it's got a problem with breaking a unit test, and I'm having to learn the mocking system to fix that
		but I'm making progress
	oobscure	mocking system ?
08:32	Thickbrick Sleaford	every time a test fails, it mocks you
	Oz Linden	it's a system for replacing things in a test that you don't want to test
	Wolfpup	oobscure it is part of the urlentry testing
	Oz Linden	in this case, the preference for whether or not the filter is on
08:33		you don't want the test to need a settings file and have to change that file and reload, etc
	oobscure	thanks
	Oz Linden	you just want a 'mock' setting that provides the value, but uses the same interface the normal code expects
		there's a framework for doing that in a test
08:34		I'm digging up the docs on the framework... if they're any good, I'll put up something on the wiki
		(and if not, I'll try to get some created, but that may take a while)
	Thickbrick Sleaford	I haven't looked at the code that was contributed, but I think there are some usability problems with what's in Sione Lomu's bitbucket repo.
08:35	Oz Linden	Tonya has made a number of changes to that based on my early reviews
		for the contribution, that is.
08:36		I'm going to show it to our UI lead next week... he may want more... we'll see
	Thickbrick Sleaford	In Imprudence we added an option to only ask when the stream being played was initiated by a scripted command. This reduces the spam greatly, and kinda-almost works.
		Also, modal popups.
	Oz Linden	I don't expect many people to use this much.... it's rather a pain
08:37		one of the changes we made was that the popup times out and disappears if you ignore it
		(and that is equivalent to denying the media)
	Thickbrick Sleaford	Oh, cool.
08:38	Oz Linden	let's see... VWR-25506
	JIRA-helper	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-25506 VWR-25506 Investigate restrictions on storing and exchanging inventory items within prims and notecards
	Thickbrick Sleaford	Oh, not so cool. You will not be able to play that media again in that session without manually editing the filter (I think.)
	Oz Linden	We've got a lot of interesting data now... thank you oobscure
	oobscure	hoo.
08:39		need more testing about that?
	Oz Linden	That is also on my list of things to go over with our UX lead next week
		I'll let you know after I've had that discusssion
	oobscure	ok.
		who is UX lead if I may ask?
	Oz Linden	Rhett Linden
08:40		He's visiting the Boston office next week.... I'll be passing on lots of what I've heard at these meetings :-)
08:41		so.... under New Topics...
		I don't think I understand this first one....
08:42	TriloByte Zanzibar	I've been noticing the same thing Havarikk put on the agenda... display names often don't appear for several seconds
	Oz Linden	Well, they do have to be loaded remotely, so they are subject to service delays
08:43		I put in a bunch of logging when I touched that code last, so if you bump up the logging for that system to debug level you get quite a lot of data now
	TriloByte Zanzibar	right... I think Havarikk is getting at the idea that once a name's been fetched, it should shouldn't need to be re-fetched?
	Oz Linden	if anyone wants to investigate it, I can dig up the log configuration
	oobscure	i was thinking cache as well
08:44	Oz Linden	it should be re-fetched
		the viewer is now pretty aggressive about keeping them
	TriloByte Zanzibar	I'm not sure how it works, but my guess based upon behavior is that each group keeps its own list of the DN's being used in it
	Oz Linden	older versions timed out the cache pretty quickly, but now they are kept for a long time
08:45	TriloByte Zanzibar	is it possible that fetching that list could be contributing to an increase in failures to open group chats lately?
	Attica Bekkers	thats driving me nuts
	Oz Linden	there may be issues with out some other parts of the viewer are reading the name cache... I don't know
08:46		I don't know, TriloByte ... I doubt that it's DNs
	TriloByte Zanzibar	for the last few months, certain groups (for me, one specific larger one) fail when trying to open a lot more than before
	Attica Bekkers	and cant openif in a simwith lots of people
	TriloByte Zanzibar	other residents (and mostly folks on TPV's) report that nearly any group fails on them
	Oz Linden	There is a lot of work going into various parts of chat these days.... I'm only following it at a pretty high level though
08:47	Attica Bekkers	if yuf rogtot to try before arriving at populated sim, luck is out cos it keeps not opening even if got somewhere quiet
	Oz Linden	let's move on so we touch more of these....
	TriloByte Zanzibar	understood... if you hear of any need for testing/feedback on chat issues, let me know. I'm sure I could rustle up some volunteers
	oobscure	well Oz that's encouraging news, after the huge xmpp disappointment :)
08:48	Oz Linden	#2 .... we've got a fix for... will be in the next beta ... I forget the issue #
	oobscure	(( that = work going on chat. sorry for pronouns ;-) ))
	Oz Linden	vwr-23121
	JIRA-helper	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-23121 VWR-23121 Minimising interface clutter for Viewer 2.0/Snowstorm
	Thickbrick Sleaford	Capabilities seem to fail often for a some people (flood of http 499 errors in logs.) There's reprotedly a service that dies on the sim, but I also suspect there are other problems. I get those failures *very* more often with one ISP, and almost never with another ISP. That makes display names pretty useless for me.
08:49	oobscure	I like VWR 23121. will add some ideas there. one is ... think "ctrl alt D" or "windows key + D" --- to hide all floaters and make em reappear
08:50	Thickbrick Sleaford	The ISP that has the often HTTP failures (which seems SL specific. Other sites keep working) also drops a lot less UDP packets, so I stay with it...
	Oz Linden	Yes ... the caps issue is a live one, and is being looked at hard
		on this vwr from Haravikk.... after we're done with Windlight, I think that the next couple of Snowstorm team sprints will be looking at things related to this
	TriloByte Zanzibar	woohoo for mini icons and the ability to completely hide/remove the sidebar
08:51	Attica Bekkers	no sidebars
	Oz Linden	I'll pass this on to our UI designer
	Attica Bekkers	did theynto ask any legally blind peopel to test v2
	Oz Linden	I don't know, Attica
08:52	TriloByte Zanzibar	next up was SVC-6898
	JIRA-helper	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-6898 SVC-6898 Switching language in preferences creates new calling cards folders for each language
	TriloByte Zanzibar	wait, did I get that right?
	oobscure	re: 6898 trilo?
08:53	Oz Linden	yes... I believe that we've fixed the problem that caused those to be created in the first place
	oobscure	6898 itself has been fixed. but folders cant be deleted by users anymore
	TriloByte Zanzibar	yeah, that was the JIRA you listed on the agenda, but the description seems different than what you'd posted
		ah ok
	oobscure	thats correct
	Oz Linden	and we've got someone looking at fixing the folders from the database side.
08:54	oobscure	that 'd be surely better than my idea
	Oz Linden	if all goes well, some time soon those folders will just disappear and all the contents will be in the one that should exist
	oobscure	should 6898 be closed then?
08:55	Attica Bekkers	fix pending?
	Oz Linden	I'll wait to close 6898 until we're sure we've got it all sorted out
		STORM-312
	JIRA-helper	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/STORM-312 STORM-312 spacenavigator on linux didn't work
08:56	Oz Linden	this is party my fault....
		I kept putting it off because the old way that we built the libs was such a pain to deal with
		now that we've got autobuild packaging working, this should be pretty easy
08:57		in fact, if an open dev is interested, it should be straightforward
		I can't take it up again myself until at least our next sprint, or I'll never get the gpu fixes done
08:58		what I'd _really_ like is for someone to port the driver from the SpaceNavigator folks instead of this one
		in fact, we've got a SpaceNavigator for the dev that does that
08:59		(I love it... I think it's the best way to move around most of the time)
	oobscure	it is
		:)
	TriloByte Zanzibar	they have a linux driver on their site, v 1.5.2 released last august
09:00	Oz Linden	yup... probably would not take much to package for autobuild and integrate
		but I want all three platforms, not just linux
09:01	oobscure	what does that driver add to current implementation?
	TriloByte Zanzibar	oh nvm, that's just their 3dxware, may not be just the driver
	Oz Linden	We've beaten VWR-25525 enough for now, and already talked about clouds...
	JIRA-helper	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-25525 VWR-25525 Improvements to handling of user group permissions on parcels
09:02	Oz Linden	so... we've gotten through our agenda, and I need to return that call from my wife that I had to stop for earlier....
		see you all next week
	draconis.neurocam	take care oz
	Wolfpup	tc Oz
	TriloByte Zanzibar	see you later
	oobscure	thank you Oz