Viewer Evolution User Group/Archive/2011-05-27

08:03	Oz Linden	Hi everyone... sorry I'm late
	Wolfpup	hey Oz
	TriloByte Zanzibar	good morning
	Oz Linden	https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Viewer_Evolution_User_Group
	Marianne McCann	Hiya
08:04	Oz Linden	let's start with the New Issues (some of which we may have touched on before, but....)
08:05		VWR-25321
	JIRA-helper	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-25321 VWR-25321 Make user aware of the "CTRL + Up/Down Arrow" feature (which scrolls back message history)
08:06	TriloByte Zanzibar	not a bad idea, maybe as a tooltip or something?
	Oz Linden	adding something to the existing chat entry bar tooltip would seem to be sufficient for this?
	Jonathan	Yes
08:07	Wolfpup	i wonder if the whipser is still active as well
	Oz Linden	we should probably add that same tooltip to the entry bar for p2p and group chat floaters
	Jonathan	The message might also mention using ctrl r and l to move around in the line
	TriloByte Zanzibar	especially for group chat, that's where it's needed most IMO
	Oz Linden	I think whisper and shout still work, but forget how to whisper
08:08	Wolfpup	used to be shft+enter
	Oz Linden	doesn't need to be control; just left and right work
		shouts: this is a whisper
		nope
	Wolfpup	that was CTRL+enter
08:09	Marianne McCann	Only wayOnly way I know of activating shout is to actually type out "/whisper" and my text
		(on V2)
	Wolfpup	whispers: hello
	Oz Linden	whispers: is this a whisper
	TriloByte Zanzibar	don't forget actions
	Oz Linden	the shift-enter didn't work
	TriloByte Zanzibar	tries not to forget
	Marianne McCann	(Kinda a clunky method, but it works)
	Oz Linden	raises his hand
		/lh
08:10	Wolfpup	shift+enter works in the old code base
	Oz Linden	evidently that didn't make it (or this keyboard isn't compatible somehow)
	Blondin	shouts: test
		:)
	Wolfpup	shift+enter dose not wqork for me either Oz
08:11	TriloByte Zanzibar	that might all be getting a bit too wordy for a tooltip, maybe a help menu item that lets you bring up a list of local chat, p2p, and group chat shortcuts/tips?
	Marianne McCann	Likewise. No go for shift enter on Mac
	Oz Linden	I'd be fine with adding to the tooltip for the up/down.... this seems like your kind of thing, Jonathan... want it?
	Marianne McCann	shouts: control enter
		shouts: command enter
08:12	Oz Linden	there's a ? icon on the nearby chat floater
		that should open a help page, but at the moment I'm running a project viewer on which it is not working
	TriloByte Zanzibar	yeah, true, right now page not found for local chat
	Oz Linden	anyone running a released viewer?
	Marianne McCann	Yes...
08:13		It tells you about the Nearby Chat floater, and how to get a more compact chat display
	TriloByte Zanzibar	no ? on p2p
		or on group chat
	Oz Linden	the p2p and group floaters should probably also get the help
08:14	Jenova Spires	I'm using Second Life 2.6.8 (230359) May 19 2011 16:28:57 (Second Life Release)
	Oz Linden	The way the help system works is that the help links go to pages that are generated from wiki text; it's quite a clever design in most ways
	Jonathan	Sorry Oz, I was afk, I will take that on
08:15	Oz Linden	it does have one minor flaw that we need to fix, which is that for it to work for any given viewer there's a link that has be manually created as part of releasing the viewer
		which is why they don't work in development builds
08:16		it allows different viewer versions to serve different help, but we should (and eventually will) fix it so that if the version is unknown you just get some default
08:17	TriloByte Zanzibar	it'd be brilliant if there were infinite resources to document everything :)
	oobscure	no meeting?
08:18		nevermind
	Marianne McCann	Hm?
	Oz Linden	Thank you Jonathan.... next issue: VWR-25363
	JIRA-helper	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-25363 VWR-25363 Expose "Duplicate Object" feature in Viewer 2 (regression from 1.x)
08:19	Wolfpup	Oz yesterday I updated > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Viewer_2_Microsoft_Windows_Builds
	TriloByte Zanzibar	I always just shift-clicked/dragged, who knew there was another way
	Oz Linden	Seems like adding a Duplicate entry to the Build menu
		yes, shift-drag works
08:20		but the menu item might not hurt either
	TriloByte Zanzibar	totally
	oobscure	yup
		ctrl D
	TriloByte Zanzibar	especially if it lists the shortcut on the right side as reference
	Marianne McCann	Ya. Haven't sued duplicate in ages, but I see no trouble with it bein in there
		used*
08:21	Oz Linden	there is one thing I found about shift-drag that I think is non-intuitive, but I suspect it's too late to change... the original is the one you move: the copy is the one that stays behind
	oobscure	it's about "discoverability".
	Wolfpup	unless im duplacting a whole build i normaly copy a prim useing th copy function in the tools floater
	TriloByte Zanzibar	yeah, that drives me crazy Oz
	Oz Linden	the question I have is: where does the duplicate appear?
	Jonathan	What you shift-drag? The duplicate is left behind where the original was
	Marianne McCann	Ya, it's always been that way (the copy being the one you move)
	Wolfpup	it should actualy be the other way around
08:22	Jonathan	I don't think that's a viewer change
	Marianne McCann	er, original
	Wolfpup	i think you should actualy be 'pulling' the copy out of the orginal
	Thickbrick Sleaford	I'm guessing it was done that way because it can take a while for the sim to rez a new object, and for the viewer to know about it, so you'd end up dragging a non-existant object otherwise.
08:23	Oz Linden	I think leaving the original is more intuitive, but it may be that changing it would be more confusing than not... experienced builders expect it the way it is now
	Jonathan	wolfpup, you are operating on the original (moving it) and also leaving a copy behind, to that logic does make some sense, it is just not intuitive
	Wolfpup	true Jonathan
08:24	oobscure	btw, VWR-25363 is not about shift-drag
	TriloByte Zanzibar	I agree it's counter-intuitive, but thick & jonathan have a point. plus I think it's too late to change
08:25	Oz Linden	anyway....the question is where the menu entry should go
	oobscure	for those interested about Discoverability: "All operations can be discovered by systematic exploration of menus" http://www.jnd.org/dn.mss/gestural_interfaces_a_step_backwards_in_usability_6.html
		Build menu
	TriloByte Zanzibar	build -> object submenu
		since you're duplicating the object
08:26	Oz Linden	I think that makes sense
	TriloByte Zanzibar	I'll also suggest that duplicate should be added to the context menu when selecting an object
		perhaps under 'Take Copy'
08:27	Oz Linden	the context menu is already pretty long
	oobscure	not sure about that, personally. i'd keep that menu as short as possible
	Oz Linden	and that applies whether you're building or not... not really the same thing
	TriloByte Zanzibar	good point, and 'power users' would likely already be aware of the shortcut
		I take it back :)
08:28	Oz Linden	the fact that we have the existing keyboard shortcut means that there is already a (possibly hidden) menu item somewhere that does the correct action
		that's how keyboard shortcuts are defined
08:29		so implementing this should just be finding that entry and duplicating it as a visible one in the Build menu, then fixing it so that it is disabled when no object is selected
	Thickbrick Sleaford	Richard commented on that jira: "duplicate is in the hidden edit menu"
08:30	Oz Linden	ok, well I'm happy to have this done... and it's already marked as an open development candidate
	Thickbrick Sleaford	(in menu_edit.xml)
	oobscure	cool
		sorry - I arrived late, there was a hug rainstorm here. can someone paste me in IM what has been said about ctrl+up/down arrows (if you had previously discussed that) ?
08:31	Oz Linden	we're going to add them to the tooltips
	oobscure	sounds cool
	Oz Linden	svc-2825
	JIRA-helper	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-2825 SVC-2825 New Feature -> Dialog -> Group Information -> Ban List
08:32	Oz Linden	Not really a viewer issue
	Jonathan	I like this idea, but the server people would have to implement their end first
	Oz Linden	I don't think that there are going to be any big changes around group management in the very near future
08:33		the server devs are pretty busy with other things that have bigger effects on more people
08:34		I'm going to take this off our watch list for now.... I do know that at some point the whole 'groups' idea will get a deep re-think, and this can certainly be added to that list
		vwr-23783
	JIRA-helper	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-23783 VWR-23783 System Integration Settings
08:35	Oz Linden	there are a few sub-issues here
08:36	Wolfpup	that looks like some thing for the UI team to look at
	Oz Linden	I don't actually think that the umbrella issue serves any useful purpose
	Wolfpup	and i know they have a few things planed
08:37	Oz Linden	the UI folks are indeed very busy :-)
	Jonathan	I just read about growl the other day (VWR-23786) and that seems like it would be a massive project to implement
	JIRA-helper	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-23786 VWR-23786 Growl support for Mac OS X
08:38	Wolfpup	i know wolf had me send him a snapshot of how i have done the tabs in the side panel of my local builds
	Oz Linden	I'm going to promote each sub-issue here to it's own issue, and get rid of the umbrella. The small ones are not connected in any implementation way.
08:39	Jonathan	seems like VWR-23784 would be easy to renable
	JIRA-helper	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-23784 VWR-23784 [Viewer 2.0] Re-enable option for system colour-picker
	Oz Linden	any of them might be easy
	Jonathan	We can't tell if it was removed to declutter or because of some other issue
	Marianne McCann	Only way to enable it now is in the debug settings
08:40		(I do enable it)
	Oz Linden	I don't know either... we'd need to test carefully on all platforms
	Wolfpup	useing the system color picker on windows 7 might be a little more dificult as it is different than on xp
	Oz Linden	are you on a Mac, Marianne?
	Marianne McCann	Yup.
	TriloByte Zanzibar	ooh - how can I use the system color picker?
	Marianne McCann	Mac system color picker >> SL color picker
	TriloByte Zanzibar	yes exactly
	Jonathan	If the color picker was going to come back what menu to put it in?
	Thickbrick Sleaford	It probably has the same problem as the file picker - the app is frozen while it's open (which BTW Aleric fixed in Singularity...)
	Marianne McCann	Debug Settings > UseSystemColorPicker (if I recall correctly)
08:41	Wolfpup	Jonathan it would be in the preferences
	Oz Linden	could be, Thickbrick
	TriloByte Zanzibar	useDefaultColorPicker
	Jonathan	I see a debug setting UseDefaultColorPicker
	Marianne McCann	Ya, that
	Jonathan	<-just update the debug wiki page last week or so
08:42	TriloByte Zanzibar	thanks for the tip!
	Oz Linden	let's move on ... VWR-25824
	JIRA-helper	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-25824 VWR-25824 [Regression] Bulk uploads do not adhere to default permissions
	TriloByte Zanzibar	and thanks for the update, jonathan, that's a great page
	Jonathan	TriloByte, I figured it was time for an update once the early mesh merge went through
	TriloByte Zanzibar	Yeah, bulk upload perms got broken with the big mesh merge, that's going to hurt a lot of content creators
	Thickbrick Sleaford	(I just tested in a 1.x viewer, and it does freeze the whole app while it's open)
	Oz Linden	still busted, I gather.... I don't know whether anyone thinks this is on their list.
08:43	TriloByte Zanzibar	you don't get an error that says your permissions weren't applied, you only discover if you double-check every uload, or if you finish an item and transfer a copy and realize your item is useless
08:44	Marianne McCann	Ick!
	Wolfpup	that could be a server side bug
	TriloByte Zanzibar	yes, a server-side bug that appears only in viewer versions that came after the mesh merge
08:45	Oz Linden	I'll see if I can escalate that a bit.... certainly should be fixed before we activate mesh, I think
	TriloByte Zanzibar	still works properly in 2.6.8 and below
	Oz Linden	shouldn't be too hard to find, then
	TriloByte Zanzibar	I noted the specific build number in the jira, I think
08:46	Wolfpup	it might be as simple as a data filed not being reconized
	Oz Linden	well, yes, but it was the mesh merge.... there were 2250 changesets in that merge
	TriloByte Zanzibar	yeah, and everybody saying "don't worry, we'll fix it after" as they steamrolled it into viewer dev
		:)
	Oz Linden	if that was the worst problem we'd introduced, things would be pretty good
08:47		however, it should get looked at asap... I'll see what I can do
	TriloByte Zanzibar	well there's that monstrous crash for mac users with ati graphics
	Oz Linden	yes... exactly, but I believe that a fix for that is on the way...
	TriloByte Zanzibar	fortunately there's a fix for that one, just needs to be pulled into viewer-dev before another beta/release gets out
08:48	Wolfpup	on the subject of mesh impoerted to viewerdevelopment their needs to be a discussion about getting the stub into a functional OS version of llconvexdecomp
	Oz Linden	sh-1618
	TriloByte Zanzibar	yeah, the fix for SH-1618 has been tested and works, just needs to be brought over
	Jonathan	[PUBLIC_JIRA_USERS] Lighting and shadows crash ATI macs
08:49	Oz Linden	that is being tested now along with some other high impact issues and will be merged as soon as the testing is done
08:50		So... let's see about past things...
		Windlight is making (slow) progress....
		I'm running our review build now (and it's pretty gloomy here)
08:51	TriloByte Zanzibar	problems with the build?
	Oz Linden	media filter I'm going to work on today (try to unblock by fixing the unit test problem)
		no, the windlight build is fine
	Jonathan	I think Oz means the scene is a dark one
08:52	TriloByte Zanzibar	ah ok :)
	Oz Linden	no, the windlight build is fineright
		we can display region settings now, but the new settings editting dialogs are not working yet, so there's no way to change them
08:53		I don't think thatere are any changes on any of the other items on our Ongoing list....
08:54	Jonathan	oz, vwr-24005 is a new one
	JIRA-helper	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-24005 VWR-24005 Accidentally logged out when trying to use media or volume controls
	Jonathan	I was hoping that might be taken before/at the same time as the draw distance slider change
	Oz Linden	oh yeah... skipped that... reading....
	Jonathan	(or else marked as won't finish)
	TriloByte Zanzibar	a draw-distance slider, you say?
08:55	Jonathan	A few tpv changes are going to be brought in
		(not the radar though)
	TriloByte Zanzibar	I've been manually adding a slider to my viewer for a year now
	Oz Linden	I'm proposing that we add a draw-distance slider just like the global volume control (and right next to it)
08:56	Marianne McCann	That would be lovely
	Oz Linden	Want to try contributing that TriloByte?
	Jonathan	1) what do you think of vwr-24005 and 2) the draw distance slider would operate vertically to save UI space?
	TriloByte Zanzibar	excellent idea, I think having that a bit easier to reach will also help reduce the # of crashes
08:57	Oz Linden	as for the window close problem... Mac users could have the same problem with the Me menu
	TriloByte Zanzibar	sure, is there an issue to add it to, or want me to just shoot you the xml file via email?
	Oz Linden	I'll create an issue and send you a pointer
	TriloByte Zanzibar	thanks
	Jonathan	trilobyte, what direction does the slider operate in? The one I saw a long time ago was horizontal, and not all of us have a wide screen
08:58	Oz Linden	I don't know if we can move things away from the corners to avoid window controls....
	TriloByte Zanzibar	mine's horizontal
	Marianne McCann	I'd love a draw distance slider....
	Oz Linden	I want vertical - exactly like the volume slider
		with the gear button at the bottom to open the Graphics preference tab
	TriloByte Zanzibar	if we're going to be fixing accidental clicky buttons, how about that "?" menu above the notifications list? I'm constantly screwing up and clicking that one
08:59	Jonathan	Oz, here is how the vwr-24005 would look https://jira.secondlife.com/secure/attachment/46142/v2_status_bar.png
	TriloByte Zanzibar	I'd prefer vertical too
	Thickbrick Sleaford	how about putting the slider on an accordion slide-out thingy?
	Jonathan	it is just swapping 2 existing elements in that bar
	Oz Linden	but we also have a request for something that clicks on the clock, JY
		(show events happening now)
	TriloByte Zanzibar	I'll see if I can make sense of the xml, perhaps its functionality can be stapled to a copy of the volume slider code?
09:00	Oz Linden	I looked at the code just this morning, and can send some pointers
	TriloByte Zanzibar	(as a workaround, enabling 'shownetstats' moves the volume icon/slider to the left a bit
	Marianne McCann	(I but a small note to the click the clock JIRA last night, pointing to the events happening now in new search would be fab)
09:01	TriloByte Zanzibar	that would be great, marianne! nice 'discovery' tool IMO
	Marianne McCann	Ya. I'm very keen on that one
	Oz Linden	I'll bring up the accidental window close question with the UI folks
	Jonathan	I think we could swap those 2 elements and make some adjustments in the blank padding so the clock is not too far to the right
09:02	TriloByte Zanzibar	sounds excellent
	Oz Linden	I think the issue will be top bar space on smaller screens
	Jonathan	I have one of those smaller screens
09:03	Oz Linden	I need to prep for my scrum meeting folks... thank you all for coming
	Jonathan	thanks oz
	Marianne McCann	have fun, thanks!
	TriloByte Zanzibar	should be okay, there's some gap to play with up there (I pop between 1024x768 and 1280x720 a lot)