WindLight/Office Hours/2008-01-29

Pavig Lok: welcome mister pastrami
Pastrami Linden: Thank you!
A C: Pasta !
Jeremy Linden feels a little bit of lag.
Kevin Paisley: didnt think of that before tping
Ryder Dryke: wow bigpapi thats an awesome av!
BigPapi Linden: Thank you!
Pastrami Linden: Jeremy you wanna just throw up the sign-
Pastrami Linden: I can't seem to wear mine
Jeremy Linden hurls the sign.
Pastrami Linden: alright all
Pastrami Linden: for those of you who don't know how this works, just IM me questions and we'll process in turn
Pastrami Linden: [8:04] Alfrik Northmead: Okies... Mac question.. are we gonna see ANY improvements on Core Duo systems running the ATI x1600 Mobile?
Pastrami Linden: BigPapi?
BigPapi Linden: Yes
Alfrik Northmead: to clairify...
BigPapi Linden: Any particular improvement you'd like to see?
Alfrik Northmead: I'm running a MBP 15" with 2GB of RAM and a the 125MB card
Alfrik Northmead: I get, if I twae the settings up form LOW to include the new shaders, etc. MAYB 6FPS
Alfrik Northmead: *tweek
Alfrik Northmead: *MAYBE
BigPapi Linden: Runitai checked in a work around for the terrain shaders being messed up.
BigPapi Linden: In what regions Alfrik. I have exactly the same MBP and I get much better performance on average.
Alfrik Northmead: hmmm
Alfrik Northmead: Playboy, GOL4, Echo, Penrynn Oropesa
Alfrik Northmead: right now I'm actaully gettin 10FPS
BigPapi Linden: I get 14 fps on high *WITHOUT* avatar impostors.
Alfrik Northmead: thats with draw distance at 96m, particle count @ 1024, low post quality, and water reflections off
Alfrik Northmead: impsters are on for me
BigPapi Linden: With impostors I'm getting 21 FPS
Pastrami Linden: Alfrik, what OS version?
Alfrik Northmead: 10.5.1
BigPapi Linden: Are you running anything intensive in the background?
Baby Stage 2: Is a little bit bigger and realizes that thumb sucking is an option.
Alfrik Northmead: right now, just skype, firefox beta 3, and transmission
Pastrami Linden: Alfrik, you running on an external monitor?
Pastrami Linden: curious what your res is
Alfrik Northmead: dual monitor set up. let me seee what happens when I kill the second monitir
Pastrami Linden: run it at your notebook's native res, on its screen
BigPapi Linden: on the notebook's screen
Pastrami Linden: yeah
Alfrik Northmead: yeap, it's running in a window, window rez is...
Alfrik Northmead: 1269x799
BigPapi Linden: Performance should get better for you going forward.
vincent26 Dench: salut
Pastrami Linden: Alfrik I'm going to take the next question, let us know how that works
Alfrik Northmead: thanks
BigPapi Linden: Once we can publically close most of the outstanding issues.
BigPapi Linden: Which should be soon.
Pastrami Linden: [8:08] A C: What's wrong with ATI drivers ? Water refection works with 7.11 but doesn't work with 7.12. Do you plan to change something in order to see the reflection with 8.1 ?
Pastrami Linden: A C,
Pastrami Linden: not only should the forthcoming release solve that,
Pastrami Linden: ATI's forthcoming 8.12 drivers (I think that's the designation) should kill it and crush it once and for all
A C: 8.2 indeed
Zen Linden: Windlight runs great on 8.1 on my internal build right now
A C: ok Zen
A C: Thank's =)
Zen Linden: I had to turn off hardware skinning on some higher end cards, but that's about it. 8.2 will fix that.
Pastrami Linden: anyone else?
Pastrami Linden: IM me
Pastrami Linden: [8:15] Ryder Dryke: what card can you recommend to buy for a new PC?
Pastrami Linden: well, if you can afford it,
Pastrami Linden: the latest Nvidia has to offer would be my suggestion
Pastrami Linden: 8800
Zen Linden: 8800 GT
Pastrami Linden: or whatever it is these days
Rika Klaar: hello pastrami .. i used to be able to see videos on sl, but doesnt work anymore .. u know why?
Zen Linden: if you're lucky you can find them for around $250... and they run SL great
BigPapi Linden: I would suggest that you not skimp out on the second digit of nvidia or ati cards (for the latest generations)
BigPapi Linden: For example
Pastrami Linden: Rika please IM your questions to me
Ryder Dryke: thanks
Rika Klaar: oh ok sry
BigPapi Linden: you're better off getting an Nvidia 7900 than an nvidia 8200
Pastrami Linden:  :)
Pastrami Linden: amen to that
BigPapi Linden: If you want performance, on nvidia's end the *lowest* you should go is a second digit of 6.
Alfrik Northmead: follow up here - killed firefox, kiled my second display FPS is worse :/
Pastrami Linden: Alfrik, did you turn on any custom settings?
Alfrik Northmead: right now, I'm running mid level perfomance with atmospheric shaders enabled
Pastrami Linden: hmm
Pastrami Linden: that is strange
Pastrami Linden: latest OS
Pastrami Linden: res is fine
Pastrami Linden: how long have you been logged on?
Alfrik Northmead: in world, or into my machine's account? in world, about 0755
Alfrik Northmead: is when I logged in
BigPapi Linden: So you've been in world for about 2 and half hours straight already?
Jeremy Linden: BigPapi, I think that'd be only about 30 minutes.
Alfrik Northmead: nope, about 35 minutes
BigPapi Linden: Oops. looking at the wrong clock.
BigPapi Linden:  :)
Pastrami Linden:  :)
Pastrami Linden: well, BigPapi, what do yo think?
BigPapi Linden: Hmmm. I'm puzzled. Upcoming releases should make things better for you Alfrik.
Pastrami Linden: Alfrik, at this point, we gotta send you off with a "try the next release, come back and tell us how it works" :\
Alfrik Northmead: OK
Pastrami Linden: sorry!
Pastrami Linden: [8:18] Aki Shichiroji: What is the current status of water reflections, for those who are no longer getting them, whether with or without atmospheric shaders enabled? Not particular to my own situation, but i do believe video cards failing to load shaders was part of the
mentioned last week. [8:24] Pastrami Linden: Aki, those most likely ATI bugs-
Alfrik Northmead: I'll kill my voltage regulation too
Zen Linden: SOON!
BigPapi Linden: Keep in mind I have *exactly* as you which I'm using right now, and you can tell from the numbers I gave you that my performance is MUCH better.
Pastrami Linden: many/all of which will be solved with next release + ATI's next drivers
BigPapi Linden: that should read "exactly the same hardware
Aki Shichiroji chucklesd. arrighty.
Pastrami Linden: [8:22] SunLife Timeless: Hi I would like to have a little egg please
Pastrami Linden: me too
10K's Magic Wand V2.10 whispers: Ich erwarte Deine Befehle, Meister.
Ryder Dryke: egg
Pastrami Linden: well I'll be
Kevin Paisley: o.O
Pastrami Linden: <note to Torley- an egg has just appeared>
SunLife Timeless: oh my good
Ryder Dryke: :->
Aki Shichiroji: mm. breakfast.
Zen Linden: OMG i am so hungry
SunLife Timeless: Criminal band
Pastrami Linden: Egg too bug for pan
Pastrami Linden: big
SunLife Timeless: =^_^=
Ryder Dryke: frying pan
Ryder Dryke: egg
Pastrami Linden: any other questions?
Pastrami Linden: IM me
Rika Klaar: i did ...
Pastrami Linden: Rika I thought we answered your question?
Pastrami Linden: checks log
Rika Klaar: oh ok
Pastrami Linden: oh you're right!
Pastrami Linden: my bad
Pastrami Linden: about the video
Pastrami Linden: sorry- I closed the tab
Rika Klaar: right
Pastrami Linden: just write it here
Rika Klaar: well i used to be able to see videos .. but it doesnt work anymore .. its all blue
Rika Klaar: though i havent changed anything
A C: quicktime ?
Rika Klaar: nothing has been changed
Pastrami Linden: Rika, you are using the WindLight client?
Rika Klaar: phew i dont know :D
Pastrami Linden: go to Help
Pastrami Linden: About Second Life
Pastrami Linden: and tell me the number in parentheses after 1.18.6 at the top
Pastrami Linden: alright Rika, while you do that Im moving on to the next qestion
Pastrami Linden: [8:27] A C: how many weeks before RC ?
Pastrami Linden: A C, let me show you a little trick we use in development
Rika Klaar: ok ... i havent found that yet
Pastrami Linden: it's like a little game-
A C: ok  :)
Pastrami Linden: you as me a question that begins with "how long"
A Ce: I have to count ?
Pastrami Linden: I think really hard and try to look like Im thinking abotu all sorts of dependencies,
Pastrami Linden: project management structure
Pastrami Linden: drivers
Pastrami Linden: etc.
Ancient Roar: lol
Pastrami Linden: then look at you really seriously
Pastrami Linden: and say
Pastrami Linden: Two Weeks
A C: ^^
Pastrami Linden: alright?
Pastrami Linden: ready?
Pastrami Linden: go!
A C: alright !
Rika Klaar: pastrami .. its 1.18.5 (3)
Pastrami Linden: oh see now you'renot giving me the lead in question!
Pastrami Linden:  :)
A C: erf
Pastrami Linden: hehe, no, in all seriousness A C,
Pastrami Linden: this next release is likely our last before it goes into RC
Zen Linden: *crosses fingers*
Cherrygirl Freschi: hi
A C: ok
A C: thank's
Pastrami Linden: Rika, that version isn't WindLight- so I'm not sure where the problem would lie. If you're interested in WindLight, you can read about it here: http://blog.secondlife.com/2008/01/23/new-windlight-viewer-77495-mac-talk/
Rika Klaar: ok .. thanks
Pastrami Linden: it's a much improved client with better graphics, etc.
Pastrami Linden: jsut know it's First Look- so very test-ish
Rika Klaar: will it make me slower?
Pastrami Linden: what hardware are you running
BigPapi Linden: Depends on your graphics settings
Zen Linden: default is likely not to
BigPapi Linden: On Low settings it should be the same or fraster
Rika Klaar: im on iMac
Zen Linden: how old?
Rika Klaar: 3
Rika Klaar: years
Aki Shichiroji winces.
Pastrami Linden: Rika, give it a shot-
Pastrami Linden: but as it's First Look, no promises  ;)
Rika Klaar: ok ill try . thanks  :)
Pastrami Linden: we have to go on to WindLight relatd questions
Pastrami Linden: sure thing
Pastrami Linden: 8:36] SunLife Timeless: I try fullperm objects to enrich my expereince on secondlife you can me know pleaseeeeeeeeeeeee ???
Pastrami Linden: indeed
Pastrami Linden: Jeremy, you have some knowledgebase pointers here?
shield-anti-push-psyke 0.05 whispers: Shield active.
Jeremy Linden: Hm. I don't think we have anything regarding stockpiles of full-permissions objects, but you could try the Library in your inventory.
Detour Sideways: or just hit any brasilian sim
SunLife Timeless: ....
SunLife Timeless: ....good bye
Pastrami Linden: [8:30] Detour Sideways: I just logged into WL and noticed my sculpties have gone lumpy after a couple of minutes. I was fine on log in
SunLife Timeless: ="(
Jeremy Linden: Wish we could be more help! Can you be more specific about what you're looking for?
Detour Sideways: me right?
Detour Sideways: well the sculptie looks lumpier.... like I uploaded it non lossless
BigPapi Linden: If you could file a PJIRA report with before and after pictures, that would be helpful. Not much for us to go on otherwise.
Detour Sideways: and if I go into edit to check the sculptie map
Detour Sideways: then it "fixes"
Aki Shichiroji: Detour> i get that sometimes
TheBlack Box: VWR-2404
Pastrami Linden: Detour does it always do it?
Aki Shichiroji: but i think it may be the video card on my end.
Detour Sideways: yeah Ive seen it happening for a while
Pastrami Linden: well, if it's a known jira, which you just showed me it is,
Detour Sideways: mostly if I go to texture heavy areas
Pastrami Linden: it'll make it's way into our internal queue
Pastrami Linden: I'm sure Torley will be checking it
Pastrami Linden: on to your next question-
TheBlack Box: Re-Opened JIRA ... had been closed at 1.17 somewhat and just re-opened
Pastrami Linden: [8:38] Detour Sideways: now that WL isnt using opengl fog to hide things in the distance, everything pops in pretty abruptly. Any plans to change this?
Pastrami Linden: BigPapi?
Detour Sideways: Ive tried using WL fog to hiude things but it doesnt really work that way
Detour Sideways: now we see parts of terrain pop in and out
Detour Sideways: just look at the hills behind me
BigPapi Linden: Yeah, the plan has always to put back in the ugly GL fog (I personally prefer the pop in to the pea soup GL fog, but to each his own... )
Detour Sideways: zoom in and out... 1 stage you have a huge hilkl
Detour Sideways: next huge holes
BigPapi Linden: But higher priority tasks have one out.
Detour Sideways: well we dont need fog
Pastrami Linden: BigPapi, you mean at the Low setting, right?
Detour Sideways: but some other way to make the transition smoother
BigPapi Linden: Not many people have been complaining about the lack of GL fog at low settings.
Detour Sideways: Im not complaining about the lack
Detour Sideways: Its more about this pop in effect
Detour Sideways: Id prefer it was dealt with some other way so the transition is smooth
Detour Sideways: other game engines deal with it in different ways
Zen Linden wonders if it would be a gain to just draw the entire regions terrain as single batch...
Detour Sideways: its not just terrain
Detour Sideways: its everything though
Zen Linden: obviously
BigPapi Linden: ah, well there's where things get tricky
Pastrami Linden: I think this work will get re-examined when we look at object transport- deciding which/when objects are streamed down
Zen Linden: but it might make the popping look better... anyway, i'm just speculating
Pastrami Linden: yeah, Detour-
Pastrami Linden: our official stance?
Pastrami Linden: a known issue
Pastrami Linden: good for future development
Pastrami Linden: but nothing immediately planned
Detour Sideways: ok
BigPapi Linden: Detour, even on crysis and far cry, which don't have user created content and thus can have fine control over level of detail for everything, you still see pop in.
Detour Sideways: no crysis deals with it differnt
Detour Sideways: its a gradual fade
Detour Sideways: in a grid of pixels
Detour Sideways: every second pixel
Detour Sideways: take another look at it
Detour Sideways: its a cool way to do it too it loks nice I think
Detour Sideways: *looks
BigPapi Linden: will do. I've played more Far Cry than crysis
BigPapi Linden: So I could be confusing the two.
Detour Sideways: I havent played far cry
Pastrami Linden: [8:30] Pavig Lok: Q: is there a fix in site for alpha textures becoming blocks of color when viewed from a distance in WL?
BigPapi Linden: Either way, Far Cry does have pop in and until Crysis was the benchmark of large worlds where you can see everything.
Pastrami Linden: yes Pavig
Pastrami Linden: next release should be good
BigPapi Linden: It's not an easy problem to solve for everything, especially with user created content.
Zen Linden: Pavig, if it's not good in the next release, we're going to take out the optimization that causes it
Pastrami Linden: [8:34] TheBlack Box: Is anyone present who can answer question about when to expect specific fixes around sculpties ? [8:41] TheBlack Box: Detour Sideways sculptie-problem is the one i would wanna ask about too  :) [8:41] TheBlack Box: but i know more about it ... i make in-world sculptie-tools
Pastrami Linden: hmm
Pavig Lok: yays - cause it breaks more content than it fixes that one
Pastrami Linden: well, sculptie issues aren't WindLight-specific, AFAIK
Pastrami Linden: team, thoughts here?
Zen Linden wishes Qarl Linden was here
TheBlack Box: me too
A C: Qarl Linden has an office hour on Friday I believe
Pastrami Linden: yeah, unfortunately we can't speak to sculpties too much as that wasn't our work!
Detour Sideways: he keeps canceling I think hes had some important stuff happening
Pastrami Linden: we can give general knowledge
Pastrami Linden: about them, but none of us has done serious work on them
Pastrami Linden: I think Qarl has just returned from a vacation
TheBlack Box: this is a test sculptie
Zen Linden: Wow, i feel like i'm in an openGL demo
TheBlack Box: whom shall i give it to ?
Pastrami Linden: I see a teapot, short and stout
Alfrik Northmead: best not be fild, I don't mix well with water on me  :)
TheBlack Box: if it is fully loaded the endings would be clear

Caligula Ferraris: hahha
Sorraya Pera: sissipoo
TheBlack Box gave you Teapot - Wear.
Caligula Ferraris: ~~*~SiSsssSSssy!!~*~~
Caligula Ferraris: lol
Kevin Paisley: o.O
Sorraya Pera: lol come
TheBlack Box: the teapot sometimes loads and sometimes stays distorted
Pastrami Linden: TheBlack, we'll take a look, but it'd probably be best to track down Qarl in his office hours-
Pastrami Linden: do yo uknow when they are?
TheBlack Box: after a clear cache i see all my lossless sculpties badly until i look at the sculpt-texture directly
Detour Sideways: yeah I get that sometimes too
TheBlack Box: then (in most cases) they complete loading for me
TheBlack Box: in somecases i nedd to relog
Pastrami Linden: alright, need to jump to more WL questions now, Black Box
Pastrami Linden: [8:48] Alfrik Northmead: OK, do we know if 10.5.2 enables any hardware shaders, or are all the sahders still being handled by software?
Pastrami Linden: BigP, take er away
BigPapi Linden: shaders being done in software should no longer be happening regardless of the OSX version you have
BigPapi Linden: With regards to future apple releases, I'm actually not allowed to discuss them at all, due to our NDA.
Alfrik Northmead: OK, so all the shaders have been moved to hardware? I was under the understanding form a couple of the last blogs that due to driver issues they were being bumped to software?
BigPapi Linden: But you should already be seeing shaders running in hardware if you're running the latest WL.
Alfrik Northmead: OK, I stand corrected then  :)
BigPapi Linden: You are correct. But that part of it we worked around on our end.
BigPapi Linden: The outstanding driver issues are the memory leak on 8600M MBPs and hard crashes and freezes in the GL driver.
Alfrik Northmead: OK, thanks  :)
Pastrami Linden: alright everybody, we're wrapping up the hours
Zen Linden: later folks!
Aki Shichiroji: Thanks for having them.
Pastrami Linden: I apologize to those with non-WL specific questions whom we were unable to assist-
Pastrami Linden: try other forums/office hours!
Pastrami Linden: and to the rest of you,
Pastrami Linden: LIGHT ON!
Pastrami Linden:  :)
Pastrami Linden: bye!