WindLight/Office Hours/2008-02-12

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Pastrami Linden: Alright all, let's get started
Tuncer Undercroft: sorry lindens i told him to stop aswell
Dimitrio Lewis: hi Torley :)
Pastrami Linden: though, actually, please IM first bout to Torley- I need to go for a sec
Pastrami Linden: I'll be right back
Torley Linden: Friendly greetings everyone! =)
Torley Linden: Hi Dimi!
Aki Shichiroji: Hi Torley
Torley Linden: OK sure, please IM me with your questions until Pastrami Linden gets back!
Torley Linden: *dances*
Aki Shichiroji chuckles.
Alfrik Northmead: ooops
Alfrik Northmead: sent my question to Jeremy
Torley Linden: No worries, I should stand still!
Jeremy Linden: Heh. And I forwarded it to Pastrami. Doh!
Torley Linden: Hey BigPapi!
Torley Linden: Haha...
Torley Linden: Alfrik Northmead: after I had mentioned the abysmal frame rates I had been getting with 1.8.6 I went in a tweeked pretty agressively, getting FPS up to about 15-20 peak. 1.19.x SAME over all settings.. frame rate has plumetted back down to 1-5ps. What gives?
Aki Shichiroji: Hi BigPapi
Torley Linden: Alfrik, system config? And this is just the WindLight viewer, or regular-flavored 1.19 too?
Alfrik Northmead: weee!
Alfrik Northmead: .7FPS
Alfrik Northmead: Windlight
Misch Lameth: ^^
BigPapi Linden: Are your drivers up to date? Have you cleared your cache?
Torley Linden: Alfrik, what happens if you start from Low settings in Preferences > Graphics and then start adding stuff one by one to see the effect on framerate?
Alfrik Northmead: lemme try
Alfrik Northmead: and its a MBP 1.8 Duo Core
Torley Linden: I would also encourage you to open the Fast Timers and check what's taking the most frame time.
Alfrik Northmead: ok
Torley Linden: Info on how to do that is @
Alfrik Northmead: yeah got that :)
Lex Mars: Hooray.
Pastrami Linden: okay, back
Torley Linden: Welcome back!
Aki Shichiroji: wb
You shout: IM your questions to Pastrami Linden so they can be answered!
Pastrami Linden: Alfrik Northmead: after I had mentioned the abysmal frame rates I had been getting with 1.8.6 I went in a tweeked pretty agressively, getting FPS up to about 15-20 peak. 1.19.x SAME over all settings.. frame rate has plumetted back down to 1-5ps. What gives?
BigPapi Linden shouts: Can we please not have any music?
Pastrami Linden: lol
Pastrami Linden: Alfrik, hardware?
Alfrik Northmead: MBP 1.8ghz, 2GB RAM 128 Radeon x1600
Alfrik Northmead: Mac OS X 10.5.1 and upgraded to 10.5.2 last night
Lex Mars: That's almost identical to mine.
Alfrik Northmead: no change
BigPapi Linden: Did you install 10.5.2 and update again to get the opengl driver update?
Alfrik Northmead: i am currently getting 0.5fps
Pastrami Linden: ahh good call
Alfrik Northmead: and yes I did :)
BigPapi Linden: Have you cleared your cache?
Lex Mars: I've yet to get the OGL update.
BigPapi Linden: Lex: you need to
Lex Mars: Ok... I'll be back as soon as I can. :)
BigPapi Linden: After the install of 10.5.2 and it's restart, you MUST run system update again
Alfrik Northmead: yeah I did
Alfrik Northmead: I'm running the new graphics drivers as well
Alfrik Northmead: umm, have not cleared cache
BigPapi Linden: and you are on the latest version of WindLight?
Alfrik Northmead: yes
BigPapi Linden: Try that.
BigPapi Linden: There seem to be some MBP performance issues (on both the X1600 and 8600M versions) that I cannot reproduce.
Torley Linden: BRB, going to relog.
Pastrami Linden: Alfrik, we're going to move on but still keep answering you
Connecting to in-world Voice Chat...
Pastrami Linden: [8:11] Natok Dryke: is it one of the aims of havok sims to create gravitation? [8:11] Natok Dryke: i mean.. by objects... [8:12] Natok Dryke: made a spinning phys ball which lets ppl float on the whole sim... noticed that by accident
Alfrik Northmead: yeap :)
Pastrami Linden: Natok, I'm not that familiar with the intricacies of the new Havok
Pastrami Linden: but someone else here might know
Pastrami Linden: BP if you're in the office and Sidewinder is too I guess you can ask him
Pastrami Linden: or Jeremy
Jeremy Linden is not in Cambridge at the moment.
Torley Linden: Ahhh distributed offices, haha.
BigPapi Linden same here.
Pastrami Linden: Torley, how's about hooking Natok up with avok/Sidewinder's office hours?
Naxos Loon: g`day folks
Natok Dryke: ah no.... IM'ing lindens always ends in "*handsoneyes* i dun see you.. dun get on my nerves" lol ... guess is wait for a documentation
Torley Linden: Sure...
Torley Linden: Natok, please see info here:
Jeremy Linden: Next Havok4 office hours are at 11:00am today.
Torley Linden: Thanks Jeremy!
Jeremy Linden *thinks* he correctly translated 2pm EST to PST
Pastrami Linden: Jeremy, 11:00am whose time?
Alfrik Northmead: brb, relogging then
Pastrami Linden: hehe
Pastrami Linden: okay
Jeremy Linden: My EST calendar says 2pm, so 11am :-)
Pastrami Linden: Valorster Beaumont: Hi, how come windlight crashed even before i can login? it happend after a update, cant remember what update it was..
Pastrami Linden: Valorster, hardware?
Lex Mars: And. back.
Aki Shichiroji: wb
Pastrami Linden: Valorster?
Pastrami Linden: did they leve
Pastrami Linden: leave
Pastrami Linden: hmm...
Aki Shichiroji: looks like it
Pastrami Linden: [8:15] Ron Overdrive: Lately me and my co-worker noticed that during the login screen on the Linux client forces our dual core processors to engage in 100% load till we're logged into SL. Were there any changes done to the login screen's code that would cause this?
Torley Linden: Hmmm Ron, I think that's been a known issue on other platforms too...
Pastrami Linden: well, by now you should be *off* of Viewer Auth
Torley Linden: that the splash screen uses 100% CPU.
Torley Linden: See
Torley Linden: This has been a problem for a long time, as far back as I can remember.
Ron Overdrive: yes well not like this.. our systems lag like all hell and we watch our resources.. this is a first for the linux client to lag our machines like this during login
Ron Overdrive: when my mouse starts skipping I kinda find it to be a little disturbing
Couples MultiAnimator v2d whispers: * Abranimations Couples Animator Ready...
Torley Linden: Ron, first time I've heard of that then... I don't know of any changes like that... and which Linux viewer versions does it happen on? Does it happen on both main viewer and RC?
Torley Linden: Do you know when it started?
Ron Overdrive: it started happening with the latest update to windlight
Ron Overdrive: I haven't tried with the current RC viewer, but it does not do this with the main
Pastrami Linden: interesting
Pastrami Linden: Ron, in that case-
Pastrami Linden: it almost certainly came from RC
Pastrami Linden: since we just merged that in
Pastrami Linden: which means it'll get into the usual queue for triaging/solving
Ron Overdrive: thats what we're figuring it was
Pastrami Linden: but is not specific to our work
Pastrami Linden: (WL)
Lex Mars: RC introduced so many new and exciting bugs to Windlight, it's hard to sort them all out. ;)
Alfrik Northmead groans
Pastrami Linden: lol
Torley Linden: Yeah, it can be a pain to ascertain if things are WL-specific if it's not obvious... sometimes I have both WL and regular RC viewers running and swap between.
CodeWarrior Carling gave you Ideajuice, Knot (229, 222, 55).
Ron Overdrive: well I'm installing the RC1 viewer now so I'll find out in a minute
Pastrami Linden: k
Pastrami Linden: [8:20] Aki Shichiroji: First of all, thanks for enabling the advanced sky editor for some of the lower end cards. I can finally see skies that aren't along the typical shader, andd even though i don't have clouds, this is a drastic and much welcomed change. Also, yay for fixed water! My only question may or may not be exclusive to WL, i am not sure, but i am having issues with highlighted stuff in profiles, group windows, and friends lists... is this a known issue? and is there any plan to fix it in the near future?
Aki Shichiroji: *ty;pical slider
Aki Shichiroji: lol
Aki Shichiroji: i need my coffee
Pastrami Linden: Known. Fixed. Thank You for compliments!
Pastrami Linden: :)
Alfrik Northmead: clear cache did not help, btw
Aki Shichiroji: yay :D
Ron Overdrive: no, it does not do it in RC
Pastrami Linden: Alfrik, we'l start with you
Pastrami Linden: what are your gfx settings at?
Pastrami Linden: Low, Mid, HIgh?
CodeWarrior Carling: will there come a day when I can look into an adjacent sim and see the water the same as I can see it when I am actually in that sim?
Alfrik Northmead: currently MOD, bump, basic, and atmo shaders on, local lighting
Alfrik Northmead: 64MB of my video memory assigned to SL
CodeWarrior Carling: sorry.. I broke protocol there
Alfrik Northmead: 96m draw distance
Pastrami Linden: bump it down to Low
Alfrik Northmead: 2k particle count
Pastrami Linden: tell me what your fps is
Alfrik Northmead: low quality post process
Pastrami Linden: Shorty get low, low, low, low
Alfrik Northmead: lo, applied
Alfrik Northmead: 5fps
Pastrami Linden: BigPapi, go to town
Alfrik Northmead: 6fps
BigPapi Linden: What happens if you set the avatars detail slider down to low?
Alfrik Northmead: just testing
Alfrik Northmead: all the avis are grey at this point
Lex Mars: my framerate is holding steady at 3.2fps
Alfrik Northmead: smae frame rate
Lex Mars: but i've got 256MB of VRAM...
Tya Fallingbridge: 18.1
Lex Mars: that's the only difference, really
BigPapi Linden: How did you install the latest WindLight client?
Spaceman Opus: 19.8
Lex Mars: between our machines
Geaven Gall: mine's on 12.2 but i'm on regular s.l right now
Alfrik Northmead: erm, downloaded fomr teh website, IIRC
BigPapi Linden: Did you download the dmg and copy it into your app folder over the old one?
Lex Mars: I also noticed that keeping the memory slider at 192 drastically reduces the freeze-ups
Alfrik Northmead: yes
BigPapi Linden: or did you delete / move the old one then copy over the new app?
Alfrik Northmead: nope, just over wrote, then xslimmed
BigPapi Linden: what's xslimmed?
BigPapi Linden doesn't like the sound of an extra process being done to the executable
Alfrik Northmead: it kills all the ppc code a zui grabage
Alfrik Northmead: *xui
Alfrik Northmead: so cleans out the PPC code fomr a UB
Lex Mars moves the preset slider all the way to low for testing...
Lex Mars: 12fps
BigPapi Linden: Who makes it? Apple?
Alfrik Northmead: up 10 8FPS now
Alfrik Northmead: umm
Alfrik Northmead: nope
BigPapi Linden: Can you both try a clean install of the last WL client? (renaming or deleting the old app, then copying over the new one)
BigPapi Linden: And not running xslimmed on it
Alfrik Northmead: so clean install of 1.19?
Lex Mars: Sure.
BigPapi Linden: Lemme find it, hold on.
Alfrik Northmead: btw :)
Lex Mars: I don't use that, myself.
Lex Mars: Ok... reloading.
Alfrik Northmead: grabbing
BigPapi Linden:
Pastrami Linden: cleanse, CLEANSE!!!!
BigPapi Linden: wait6
BigPapi Linden: turn of "nearby local lights"
BigPapi Linden: turn off I mean
Alfrik Northmead: ok
Alfrik Northmead: it was
BigPapi Linden: try "sun and moon only"
Alfrik Northmead: yeap that's awhat is set atm
Alfrik Northmead: 7fps
Alfrik Northmead: 8.8
Alfrik Northmead: DL 1.19 windlight client again
Alfrik Northmead: Be right back, folks!
Pastrami Linden: k
Pastrami Linden: time to address the other person, let's see....
Lex Mars: Ok... fresh install, and cache purged.
Pastrami Linden: Ron Overdrive: no, it does not do it in RC
Lex Mars downloads the universe.
BigPapi Linden: Nearby local lights drops the performance for me from 13-15 fps to 1.7 fps
BigPapi Linden: We should keep that one in mind, as some shader is falling back to software.
Pastrami Linden: ruh-roh
Lex Mars is presently at 17fps while all the avatar textures load.
Lex Mars: (Preset: Low)
Pastrami Linden: alright, bigpapi, should we move on?
Pastrami Linden: actually, Ron-
Pastrami Linden: you had the issue about start up screen slowdown
Pastrami Linden: you say it's not in RC
BigPapi Linden: yeah
Pastrami Linden: alright, moving on for now -
Pastrami Linden: Ron you there?
Pastrami Linden: alright, we gotta move
Pastrami Linden: [8:30] Metaphor Box: If the current topic relates to client system "mini-hangs", that is a huge problem for my Windows system for perhaps 7-10 days.
Torley Linden: Hmmm that could be a number of things Metaphor, have more info?
Pastrami Linden: ohh I've certain'y heard of this
Torley Linden: Is this, freezes every few seconds? Maybe while moving the camera?
Metaphor Box: Often freezes during camera moves, yes.
Pastrami Linden: TOrley have we internalized this yet?
Lex Mars: This used to be a mac-only issue... now everyone gets to share in the fun. ;)
Metaphor Box: Complete loss of windows UI access, mouse pointer disappearw, etc..
Torley Linden: I believe so... let's see...
Metaphor Box: but if you sit tight for a while, it is all good.
Torley Linden: Metaphor, when did you notice this problem start?
Torley Linden: About a week ago?
Torley Linden: And does it happen only in WindLight?
Keisha Ninetails: mine used to do that all the time but, when I disabled occlucion culling it stopped doing it so much
Teleport completed from
Voice not available at your current location
Voice not available at your current location
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Connecting to in-world Voice Chat...
Torley Linden: Sorry, accidentally TPed!
Lex Mars: yeah, i've noticed that in fast timers, half the frame is spent in occusion
Metaphor Box: i did recently re-enable culling
Lex Mars: even if i turn it off
Torley Linden: Metaphor, try turning it off and see if it helps any? There've been some similar reports like
Metaphor Box: will do, thank you.
Keisha Ninetails: it almost acts like the renderer has been cought by suprise when you turn around quickly and it all of a sudden has to redraw everything that was out of view
Torley Linden: You're welcome, hope we can get more clues to figure out what's going on...
Pastrami Linden: yeah occlusion has been weird on a few things like that
Pastrami Linden: [8:32] Keisha Ninetails: did you guys get the issues with the nvidia 8800 series cards and the bad driver GLSL stuff worked out?
Torley Linden: I've personally had problems with the viewer freezing for seconds to minutes when TPing, and disabling occlusion is working as a workaround.
Lex Mars: Yeah, when everything "pops" into view.
Pastrami Linden: Keisha, not sure as there have been many-
Pastrami Linden: does it work for you now?
Keisha Ninetails: can't test it, the cards are on order and I wanna make damned sure they work with windlight because the regular viewer is butt ugly to use on a regular basis
Pastrami Linden: hhaahahahah
Aki Shichiroji chuckles. She is in a similar situation
Lex Mars: yeah, i rather run at 3fps than use the main client
Lex Mars: or turn down the settings
Torley Linden: Ahh a testament to WindLight's beauty.
Pastrami Linden: Keisha, my gut says they will as we caught a huge number of bugs like that recently
Pastrami Linden: close your eyes and take the plunge
Pastrami Linden: :)
Lex Mars: it's all or nothing ;)
Heather Martynov: lol
Aki Shichiroji: something tells me i won't be logging in from my Mac much after the new tower arrives :B
CodeWarrior Carling: give me glittery, or give me death!
Keisha Ninetails: oh the plunge has been made, US$1400 worth of cards on the way, just wanna know if I need to gear up to harrass nvidia about their drivers lol
Aki Shichiroji: haha
Pastrami Linden: LOL
Pastrami Linden: [8:35] JetZep Zabelin: Is my graphics card's antialiasing application controlled by windlight or do I have to set it from my system's display properties?
Torley Linden: Wow that's a lotta moolah for cards.
Alfrik Northmead: jjeezus
Alfrik Northmead: that was loud
Pastrami Linden: Display Properties, I believe
Torley Linden: JetZep, I love this question, I wish it could be set within Preferences... but for now, go to graphics card drivers.
Torley Linden: I asked Runitai about it awhile back.
Pastrami Linden: [8:38] CodeWarrior Carling: Will there ever come a time when I can see water in the adjacent sim the same as it looks when I am actually in that sime
Torley Linden: A lot of people with powerful cards don't even have it turned on... and SL could be even more beautiful for them!
JetZep Zabelin: right, just checking as i been having difficulty getting antialiasing to work jus tright
Pastrami Linden: ahh, we had just discussed this
Pastrami Linden: CodeWarrior
Torley Linden: JetZep: Yeah, I have mine (in NVIDIA Control Panel) set to 8x...
Torley Linden: and set to override SL's preferences.
Keisha Ninetails: that's an interesting one then, because most card drivers are being told to use the SL to decide
JetZep Zabelin: wow
Torley Linden: Keisha: Exactly.
Pastrami Linden: It's caused by different water heights
CodeWarrior Carling: thaT FITS WHAT i AM SEEING
Pastrami Linden: BigPapi, what was the conclusion we'd reached?
Ron Overdrive: 16x for me with 4x Multi FSAA and Transparency Super Sampling
CodeWarrior Carling: I can give you an excellent test place to check out
BigPapi Linden: When that happens it's that somebody has manually set the water to a different height.
Torley Linden: Sounds like that must look pretty smooth, Ron!
CodeWarrior Carling: like you can't mke you own :-)
Keisha Ninetails: what's the jira for the water one?
BigPapi Linden: Which means that we're actually rendering it correctly.
Ron Overdrive: Torley and I'm still getting 50+ FPS ;P
Torley Linden: Sweeeeetness.
Pastrami Linden: [8:44] Tya Fallingbridge: i have no questions, just wanted to say you guys are doing an awesome job :)
Pastrami Linden: THank you!!
Pastrami Linden: [8:55] Dimitrio Lewis: I did some ad-hoc filming yesterday, and WindLight really had a major impact on the atmosphere and realism of the scenes. I thought the team might enjoy seeing it.
Ron Overdrive: Torley: my workstatin here at work as a 3.0ghz dual core Intel Core2Duo, 4 gigs DDR2 ram, a 10k rpm raptor hd, and a geforce 8800GTX 768mb card ;P
Pastrami Linden: [8:58] Lex Mars: Are the LSL commands to control glow settings being held for the conversion to Mono?
Pastrami Linden: Lex - no... fun things a cometh....
Lex Mars: w00t
Keisha Ninetails: give us hints!
Pastrami Linden: umm, come one Sherlock
Pastrami Linden: ^on
Pastrami Linden: I think you can figure out what I mean
Pastrami Linden: ;)
Keisha Ninetails: what are you guys planning on calling the glow functions?
Metaphor Box appluads
Pastrami Linden turns silent on the subject once again
Torley Linden: Oh yeah, I gotta update the FAQ re: scriptable glow... ;)
Keisha Ninetails: evil
Pastrami Linden: [9:01] CodeWarrior Carling: if you're going to render all water using the same settings.. maybe you should use the settings of the closest water.. not arbitrarily the water level of the sim you are in
BigPapi Linden: codewarrior.
BigPapi Linden: cant do that
CodeWarrior Carling: bummah
BigPapi Linden: We have no way to test whether or not water in the current sim is visible
Torley Linden: *thinks of weird surrealist water-on-a-ramp*
BigPapi Linden: no fast way to test
BigPapi Linden: So we have to render based on the current water height
Pastrami Linden: [9:03] Lex Mars: Is dynaic reflections on prims part of the Windlight goals? This was a fun alpha-level thing in the past... and now that water does it... one has to wonder.
Pastrami Linden: at some point
Pastrami Linden: but can't say exactly when
BigPapi Linden: don't hold your breath
Lex Mars nods.
Keisha Ninetails: oooooh, go in mouselook and look at your headless self :)
Spaceman Opus: does that mean the debug settings aren't coming back soon?
Lex Mars: I know... we're begging for FPS, and then asking for per-face reflection map shaders. :P
Pastrami Linden: haha
BigPapi Linden: exactly.
Torley Linden: That's how it goes, very astute observation, Lex. :)
Torley Linden: When you put together the big picture of what people want from Second Life, a lot of it is at odds with each other, part of why our job is so challenging and/or rewarding.
BigPapi Linden: probably no spaceman, as it would require extra engineering to get that debug setting working again.
Aki Shichiroji: more shinies for less hit >:B
Torley Linden: "Make Second Life run like a hippo on crack! BUT... give me super eye-candy so delicious that it's nutritious!"
Aki Shichiroji: haha
Spaceman Opus: ah well...thanks BP
Pastrami Linden: [9:05] Metaphor Box: 79.185 defaults seem to me to be a regression in avatar lighting aesthetics. related to the "harshness" fix? options for someone who doesn't have time to build their own environment settings defaults?
Pastrami Linden: a regression how?
JetZep Zabelin: lol
Pastrami Linden: too harsh now or not harsh enough
Metaphor Box: deeper shadows, more ambient blue.
Pastrami Linden: Metaphor, at this time I'm almost going mute on the issue since the only solution is to give estate owners the ability to define it
Pastrami Linden: which we'll be working on once WL is in Release
Metaphor Box: understand. thank you.
Pastrami Linden: I got it to where it is very, very close to the old viewer, color balance wise, and with good skies for midday
Pastrami Linden: it's been a challenge but I finaly concluded it is impossible to get it right for everyone
BigPapi Linden: Metaphor, one of the issues is that while you have a problem with the current settings, many people are quite happy with them and an equal number think they aren't dynamic enough.
Torley Linden: I know it's somewhat of an awkward chasm until that time, but once we're over that proverbial bridge, it should be pretty seamless and a good shared experience. My gosh, Pastrami, you tweaked the heck out of the day cycle!
Torley Linden: It's such a fine balance... if it even is a balance at all. Sometimes it just takes time to get used to.
Keisha Ninetails: wasn't there supposed to be a debug setting for the lighting....
BigPapi Linden: And we have it right now that on average everybody is happy with it.
Torley Linden: I can safely say in the future, any radical overhauling of Second Life's visuals will result in feedback of, "Hey, this looks TOO DIFFERENT from the good ol' WindLight we had in 2008! Can't we make it match closer?"
Pastrami Linden: or everyone is only moderately displeased
Pastrami Linden: :)
Torley Linden: Keisha: The local lighting strength? Yes...
Torley Linden: BigPapi can tell ya more about that!
Metaphor Box: I'm happy if the majority is mostly pleased with the defaults. :)
Pastrami Linden: it's like democracy- the worst form of government besides all the rest
Keisha Ninetails: wasn't a question, was just reseating that thorn :p
Pastrami Linden: and yeah, I think I did add a hair more blue to ambient because, well, go outside ;)
Metaphor Box: I CAN tweak.. just didn't find the need on prior version.
Aki Shichiroji: outside???
Aki Shichiroji: what's that??
Pastrami Linden: anyway, not to get into a drawn out discussion about this
Pastrami Linden: lol
Aki Shichiroji: O_O
Torley Linden: Each day is a different day, hence the tools we give you to customize how you see the world.
Torley Linden: The magic of making skies.
Pastrami Linden: alright, queue is empty
Torley Linden: And it's 9:10 AM!
Pastrami Linden: I hereby adjourn this meeting of the midnight society
Torley Linden: *watches as Pastrami bangs the skillet like a gavel*
Lex Mars: Hehe.
Metaphor Box: enlightening. thank you.
CodeWarrior Carling: thanks for the informative discussion!
Pastrami Linden: more like the midday society
Lex Mars: Indeed.
Spaceman Opus: Thanks all!
Torley Linden: Thanks for joining us for this Q&A session!
Aki Shichiroji: THanks for the office hours :D
Pastrami Linden: I hereby submit, for the approval of the Midday Society..... "A Tale of Three Color Components"
Torley Linden: If you missed any parts, a transcript will be provided shortly @ as usual!
Lex Mars: Cheers, guys.
Torley Linden: Cheerio and bye for now... t'care!
Lex Mars: Windlight is really showing what SL should be.
Ron Overdrive: dang it.. didn't get a chance to ask my last question >.<
Pastrami Linden: see IM
Pastrami Linden: later all!