User:Zero Linden/Office Hours/2008 July 29

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[12:52] Winne Woodget: looks at tree: EEEK a skelington!
[12:52] Winne Woodget: giggles
[12:52] Xugu Madison: Afternoon all
[12:52] Winne Woodget: hello
[12:53] Omegadon Aeon: Hey
[12:53] Cel Edman: hi there people
[12:53] Winne Woodget: waves at koffeekid
[12:54] Winne Woodget: any topic for today yet anyone?
[12:54] Winne Woodget: lol
[12:55] Saijanai Kuhn: aside from Sign post wanting to talk about duplicate sim names...
[12:55] Winne Woodget: :)
[12:55] Rex Cronon: hello everybody
[12:56] Saijanai Kuhn: BTW, anyone not a member of AW Grupies should IM me or Zha about an invite. Probably me since Zha is super busy today
[12:56] Zha Ewry: looks up distracredly and says 'Busy? that only begins to describe it"
[12:57] Winne Woodget: giggles
[12:58] Tree Kyomoon: so is there a general report on the new sims at IBM? are they public or selling yet?
[13:00] Tree Kyomoon: anyone tried cuil.com yet?
[13:01] Saijanai Kuhn: The Grouppies meeting this morning was about the OGPB starting on Thursday (which is why zha is super DUBER busy):
https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-07-29
[13:01] Saijanai Kuhn: super DUPER*
[13:01] Tao Takashi: Hello
[13:01] Bartholomew Kleiber: hi
[13:01] Tree Kyomoon: ciao tao!
[13:01] Julie Wasserstrom: Hello everyone
[13:02] Omegadon Aeon: Hey
[13:02] Rex Cronon: hi
[13:02] Dahlia Trimble: hi :)
[13:02] Infinity Linden: hmm.. isZero here?
[13:02] Omegadon Aeon: Nope
[13:02] Winne Woodget: doesnt look like it yet
[13:02] Infinity Linden: I don't see him
[13:02] Tree Kyomoon: tao if you search awgroupies on cuil.com your name comes up first!
[13:03] Infinity Linden: 'k cool.. .not just me
[13:03] Omegadon Aeon: There is zero
[13:03] Lillie Yifu: hihi
[13:03] Bartholomew Kleiber: hi
[13:03] Lillie Yifu: So what is today's plot to take over the world?
[13:04] Zero Linden: First... each avatar gets a very large mega-prim....
[13:04] Omegadon Aeon: Yay
[13:04] Infinity Linden: yay... editable.. animatable mega meshes!
[13:04] Zha Ewry: Zero, Are you thinking what I'm thinking?
[13:04] Zero Linden: ...then the flexy skirts are linked in....
[13:04] Omegadon Aeon: Go rez about 10 65k sq m mega prims in each sim
[13:04] Rex Cronon: hello zero, u bring free megaprims?
[13:04] Winne Woodget: giggles
[13:04] Zero Linden: I think so, brain, but how will we extract Brad Pitt from the pudding?
[13:04] Winne Woodget: giggles
[13:05] Lillie Yifu: careful or I will wear "In the Belly of the Beast"
[13:05] Saijanai Kuhn: Zero's been watching INLAND EMPIRE: the hookers singing "DO the Locomition"
[13:05] Tree Kyomoon: burlap chafes me so
[13:05] Infinity Linden: closes her ears
[13:05] Lillie Yifu: 4 256M megaprims - flexy
[13:05] Zero Linden: wow - quite a crowd today
[13:05] Zha Ewry: shakes her head softly, Brad Pitt, *so* doesn't belong in the pudding.
[13:05] Zha Ewry: *narf&
[13:05] Infinity Linden: don't know what's weirder: Lynch films or mega meshed avatars
[13:05] Winne Woodget: lol
[13:06] Whump Linden: thinks he walked in on an interesting conversation.
[13:06] Omegadon Aeon: lol
[13:06] Lillie Yifu: can you still do the mega avatar thing? I thought that was close off.
[13:06] Saijanai Kuhn: contemplates what a David Lynch-designed sim would be like
[13:06] Zero Linden: So - what shall be on the Agenda?
[13:06] Winne Woodget: was just going to ask that
[13:07] Saijanai Kuhn: and don't laugh. I know the pres of his foundation for 30 years now
[13:07] Infinity Linden: i'm prepared to discuss maintenance if you want
[13:07] Zero Linden: Oh -and "Welcome to my office hourse...blah blah.... open, speak freely, transcript posted ... blah blah...."
[13:08] Zero Linden: okay ...
[13:08] Zero Linden: 1) Maintenance
[13:08] Zero Linden: and... ?
[13:08] Tree Kyomoon: an office horse is a horse of course
[13:09] Zero Linden: ....unless, of course, the prim, of course, is the famous meg-a-prim!
[13:09] Infinity Linden: oh... i know Meg Prim... went to college with her
[13:09] Zero Linden: sorry - PLEEEZE don't get me going riffing on 70s TV tunes
[13:09] SignpostMarv Martin: 2) non-unique region names within a single grid
[13:09] Tree Kyomoon: ;)
[13:10] Zero Linden: Oh... I like 2)
[13:10] Zero Linden: so
[13:10] Infinity Linden: whispers "staying alive" into Zero's ear
[13:10] Zero Linden: 2) Unique/non-unique region names
[13:10] Dahlia Trimble: ewwww beegees
[13:10] SignpostMarv Martin: 2) has usability, navigation and phishing problems associated with it
[13:10] Infinity Linden: personally I like the resident's cover of stayin' alive better
[13:10] Aramis Tolsen: don't they have unique UUIDs?
[13:10] SignpostMarv Martin: yep
[13:10] Zero Linden: ....Whether your a Sculptie or whether your a Flexy you are Rezin' Alive, Rezin' Alive....
[13:10] SignpostMarv Martin: see [1]
[13:10] Saijanai Kuhn: OGP Beta start tomorrow (3)
[13:10] Zero Linden: dang!
[13:10] Dahlia Trimble: havent heard that one
[13:11] Whump Linden: I just want to hear that acapella version of "Backwater" again.
[13:11] Zero Linden: SOLD!
[13:11] Infinity Linden: enh... so the webmap API breaks thte laws of physics
[13:11] Zero Linden: 3) OGP Beta start
[13:11] SignpostMarv Martin: Infinity: that was the original problem
[13:11] Infinity Linden: humms eno lyrics to herself
[13:11] SignpostMarv Martin: it's now cropped up in-world
[13:11] Xugu Madison: Is there any way we could have signed regions, like SSL certificates are signed?
[13:11] Zero Linden: And no, Infinity and Zero doing Eno just really shouldn't be foisted upon anyone
[13:11] Omegadon Aeon: If i may ask, what is OG{?
[13:11] SignpostMarv Martin: Open Grid Protocol
[13:12] Omegadon Aeon: Oh ok
[13:12] Winne Woodget: seconds zugus SSL region idea
[13:12] Aramis Tolsen: right but don't use the word grid ;)
[13:12] Infinity Linden: thinks to disappear from signed region discussion before someone notices her name on teh X.509 spec
[13:12] SignpostMarv Martin: that bit what lets you teleport from Agni to OpenSim
[13:12] Infinity Linden: authenticated teleport is probably a different discussion from attesteation of verity of sim info
[13:12] Saijanai Kuhn: Aditi to OpenSIm right now
[13:13] Omegadon Aeon: Yeah i saw tat in Torley Lindens video, of the Gridnauts tp from Aditi to the OpenSim, that was very interesting
[13:13] Xugu Madison: Infinity, I more meant so that you know where you are is where it claims to be, rather than where you're going... something like that...
[13:13] SignpostMarv Martin: would be fun just to be able to teleport from Agni to Aditi
[13:13] Lillie Yifu: also opensim to open sim
[13:13] Saijanai Kuhn: That would be doable *someday*
[13:14] Saijanai Kuhn: opensim to opensim I thought was doable already
[13:14] SignpostMarv Martin: I'd imagine OGP would allow the Teen Grid to be shifted off into an actually seperate grid
[13:14] Infinity Linden: hmm..I'm going to note the interest in signed region info.. but that's a discussion for a future meetin...
[13:14] SignpostMarv Martin: as opposed to psuedo-seperate
[13:14] Zero Linden: OKAY
[13:14] Zero Linden: bangs the gavel
[13:14] BlueWall Slade: lol
[13:14] Zha Ewry: looksup
[13:14] Zero Linden: 1) Maintenance
[13:15] Zero Linden: Infinity - you have something to propose, discuss, toss out?
[13:15] Infinity Linden: oh.. am i up?
[13:15] Infinity Linden: yeah
[13:15] Infinity Linden: so
[13:15] Infinity Linden: as weall know.. .maintenance is good
[13:15] Infinity Linden: but taking the grid down is bad
[13:15] Infinity Linden: so we make use of "per-user login-time maintenance"
[13:15] Infinity Linden: for some things
[13:16] Infinity Linden: so when you login, the system says.. ."hey... maybe we should update some aspect of this agent's {inventory|profilewhatebver}
[13:16] Infinity Linden: right now the maintenance process is "nearly" transparent
[13:16] Infinity Linden: for some definition o the term "transparent"
[13:17] Infinity Linden: but in the future... when OGP is deployed
[13:17] Infinity Linden: we wanted to be able to alert clients doing authentication that:
[13:17] Infinity Linden: a) your authentication is correct, but b) you won't be able to log in immedaitely 'cause of maintenance
[13:18] Zha Ewry: "We're rumaghing through your bits, and you can't have them"
[13:18] SignpostMarv Martin: Oh joy. the resurection of "Under Construction" pages :-P
[13:18] Infinity Linden: so we added a bit of verbage to teh bottom of the teleport strawman to document our concerns, thoughts, etc.
[13:18] Lillie Yifu: "we are washing your naughty bits. You can have them back when they are clean."
[13:18] Infinity Linden: but hte major part of the maintenance proposal
[13:18] Gigs Taggart: couldn't most of that be changed to a low priority background process that does everyone
[13:18] Infinity Linden: is
[13:19] Gigs Taggart: instead of making it login triggered which makes the process never end
[13:19] Infinity Linden: you don't have to authenticate more than once... and the agent domain should tell teh viewer what's really going on
[13:19] Gigs Taggart: basically with a "on use" migration strategy, the migration is never done because of the long tail of people that haven't logged in in forever
[13:19] Infinity Linden: so the viewer won't be sitting there thinking... "how long is this going to take?"
[13:19] Infinity Linden: practical issues...
[13:19] SignpostMarv Martin: hrm
[13:20] SignpostMarv Martin: question
[13:20] Infinity Linden: if you authenticate correctly... your viewer may receive a "reason code" that says "maintenance is occuring"
[13:20] Infinity Linden: yup Sign...
[13:20] SignpostMarv Martin: when you get that maintenance message, would you be disconnected from your current location already ?
[13:20] Infinity Linden: nope
[13:20] Zha Ewry: It would be at login
[13:21] Infinity Linden: maintenance happens after authentication but before we think about presence
[13:21] Infinity Linden: and befoer we TP in to our first region
[13:21] SignpostMarv Martin: other question, a usability/interface one
[13:21] Lillie Yifu: kk I have a question. I maitenance necessary for everyone? Or can you go without it?
[13:21] Winne Woodget: Optional maintnenace?
[13:22] Cel Edman: Well just mention it takes between 1/5minutes. (or come back in 24hours? -> people will be pissed i guess)
[13:22] Winne Woodget: optional*
[13:22] Infinity Linden: okay...
[13:22] SignpostMarv Martin: if there is an ETA for the region to become available, would/should the viewer be given the ability to be notified when the region is now available
[13:22] Saijanai Kuhn: It seems to me that other grids will have this same issue, so best to develop some policy about it
[13:22] Zha Ewry: Its not a region issue
[13:22] Zero Linden: remember - this isn't region maintenence, it is agent domain avatar account maintnence
[13:22] Infinity Linden: lemme say that the type of maintenance we're talking about currently takes between 5 and 30 seconds
[13:22] Zha Ewry: This one.. is "The Agent Domain can't do stuff for you for awhile"
[13:22] Infinity Linden: maybe more if you have a bazillion inventory items
[13:22] Saijanai Kuhn: ah, OK, my bad
[13:22] SignpostMarv Martin: e.g. inter-grid teleport > OH NOES! maintenance > 5 minutes later , "the region you tried to teleport into is now available. do you wish to go there now ?"
[13:22] Infinity Linden: and
[13:23] Infinity Linden: the "maintenance response" frmo authentication
[13:23] Infinity Linden: will have a time estimate attached to it
[13:23] Zero Linden: puts pinky to mouth: "A BAZILLION inventory items..."
[13:23] Infinity Linden: so the viewer candisplay something
[13:23] Infinity Linden: and..
[13:23] Infinity Linden: someone mentioned optional maintenance
[13:23] Infinity Linden: and honestly
[13:23] Saijanai Kuhn: Zero channeling Mike Meyers. Time to go watch strange Lunch movies
[13:23] Infinity Linden: i didn't think of that
[13:23] Saijanai Kuhn: Lynch*
[13:24] Julie Wasserstrom: Does the inventory maintenance have to lock the user out?
[13:24] Infinity Linden: 'cause right now all the maintenance _we_ do is not optional
[13:24] Infinity Linden: but for other people running other agent domains
[13:24] Infinity Linden: they might have that as an option
[13:24] Latif Khalifa: doesn't the current login protocol have an redirect that basically tells the viewer go sleep x seconds?
[13:24] Infinity Linden: so i have to noodle on that a touch
[13:24] Pierre Roelofs: Will it be possible for the viewer to display a progress bar and a cancel button while the update is occuring?
[13:25] Infinity Linden: Latif... yeah... we'er basically reusing taht concept
[13:25] BlueWall Slade: is it something that can be queued for the instant the agent logs off?
[13:25] Infinity Linden: Pierre... yup.. that's the kind of thing we want to enable
[13:25] Julie Wasserstrom: How about a model where the maintenance is done behind the scenes, sync'd to the real one at completion and then a switch is done?
[13:25] Gigs Taggart: I already commented on the login discussion about a deferred login path
[13:25] Infinity Linden: BlueWall... the problem we have is that sometimes people don't log off cleanly
[13:25] Gigs Taggart: "What is the exchange here for an expired password that needs to be changed before logging in? I'm not sure this should be a straight failure. Is it possible to
rework "select agent" to request arbitrary additional information? Making this bit extensible might be a good thing."
[13:25] Infinity Linden: but yeah... that's a model
[13:25] SignpostMarv Martin: I'm going to hazard a guess maintenance will apply to the Agent Domain as well as the Region Domain ?
[13:26] BlueWall Slade: yep, true :)
[13:26] Infinity Linden: and Julie... that also is a model
[13:26] Gigs Taggart: I'm hinting at a need for a deferred but not failed login there
[13:26] Tess Linden: we could extend the protocol for optional maintenance by returning 'maintenace_optional' as the key, so that on next login, you would indicate 'skip_maintenance' :
True
[13:26] Infinity Linden: Gigs.. that's exactly what we're talking about here
[13:26] Zero Linden: Well - the issue is that if the protocol doesn't recognize that there is the possibility of a "auth'd, but not ready for action" state, then all implementors have
to do the more difficult implementation of maintenance that can be done in parallel
[13:26] Lillie Yifu: What about doing the maitenance when the user clears the cache?
[13:26] Lillie Yifu: They are going to be inventory lagged for a while anyway.
[13:27] Infinity Linden: also... just 'cause we do maintenance at login time doesn't mean we can build stuff hat uses a different maintenance model
[13:27] Gigs Taggart: Yeah zero it would be good if it could also encompass other login deferred scenarios like my failed password.
[13:27] Lillie Yifu: (Speaks as one who knows)
[13:27] Zero Linden: okay - looks like Infinity you have some new possible use cases and some possible approaches....
[13:27] Gigs Taggart: expired password rather
[13:27] Infinity Linden: it just means that we're providing a mechanism for the agent domain to alert teh viewer that the auth was successful, but ew're not quite ready yet
[13:27] Gigs Taggart: TOS agreement could be another deferred login
[13:27] Zero Linden: exactly what I was thinking, Gigs
[13:27] Zero Linden: okay
[13:28] Infinity Linden: Gigs... from our perspective...not accepting the TOS is an auth failure
[13:28] Zero Linden: ducks
[13:28] Zha Ewry: cringes
[13:28] BlueWall Slade: lo
[13:28] SignpostMarv Martin: deferred as in "whoops, I didn't mean to do that" ?
[13:28] Saijanai Kuhn: though, with bots, you can fake it
[13:28] BlueWall Slade: l
[13:28] Infinity Linden: but yeah... i have enough to go off and type up some more sage comments
[13:28] Zha Ewry: Its not *quite* an oauth failure
[13:28] Zero Linden: goood
[13:29] Zero Linden: let's leave it at that before someone starts slinging TOSes about....
[13:29] Zero Linden: SO
[13:29] Infinity Linden: and
[13:29] Zero Linden: 2) Unique/non-unique region names
[13:29] Infinity Linden: here's what i have now
[13:29] Infinity Linden: [2]
[13:29] Zero Linden: Cool - thanks, Infinity
[13:29] Infinity Linden: thx fer listening, everybody
[13:29] Zha Ewry: good stuff, Infinity
[13:30] Tao Takashi: thanks Infinity, cool stuff indeed
[13:30] Zero Linden: okay - so I take there is a question brough up by "oh my - how the heck can there be two regions on the grid with the same name?!?!?!?"
[13:30] Saijanai Kuhn: adds interop category at bottom so you can find it faster
[13:30] Tao Takashi: because they have different URLs?
[13:31] SignpostMarv Martin: the question of "how" isn't the question
[13:31] SignpostMarv Martin: the question is "why"
[13:31] SignpostMarv Martin: originally, the issue was with the webmap API
[13:31] Xugu Madison: "What do we do about it" is also a good one
[13:31] SignpostMarv Martin: Yoz Linden looked into it,
[13:31] SignpostMarv Martin: and it seemed to be an offline-only reference
[13:31] Zero Linden: hmmmmmmmmmmm.............
[13:31] SignpostMarv Martin: e.g. before sims were brought online
[13:31] SignpostMarv Martin: however,
[13:31] SignpostMarv Martin: I recently discovered 18 sims in 3 groups of names sharing identical names among them
[13:32] Xugu Madison: Personally, I'm tempted to say we disallow it, and any grid admin that wants to change that does so at their owk risk
[13:32] Zha Ewry: Feels like a namespace management issue
[13:32] SignpostMarv Martin: the UUID dump is attached to [3]
[13:32] Zha Ewry: just like if you get hostX twice in foo.com, you're unhappy.
[13:32] SignpostMarv Martin: it's a usability problem because secondlife://corsica_reg7/128/128/0 type links don't let you choose which one you want to teleport to
[13:32] Saijanai Kuhn: Inicdentally, generic index is: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Category:Grid_Interoperability
[13:32] Latif Khalifa: it should be disallowed imho
[13:32] Xugu Madison: and getting people to remember UUIDs could be tricky
[13:33] SignpostMarv Martin: it's a navigation problem because if you're in one corsica_reg7 sim, you have to make sure you click on the right one before teleporting into another one
[13:33] Xugu Madison: how long can island names be?
[13:33] BlueWall Slade: it might be useful to have the same region name if you wanted to cluster them for performance reasons, and have the name the same for asthetics?
[13:33] Tao Takashi: well, I wouldn't disallow it in a decentralized grid
[13:33] Tao Takashi: but maybe per region domain
[13:33] SignpostMarv Martin: it's a phishing problem because it theoretically allows someone to put up an identically named region filled with porn
[13:33] Gigs Taggart: Yes I was surprised when linden lab started having duplicate name sims :P
[13:33] Zero Linden: So, if I were defining protocols (which I am) for the web-map (which I am not), I'd really try to not rely on the human (or furry) readable name of the region in my
API
[13:34] SignpostMarv Martin: Zero: there are currently several instances of corsica_reg7 *online*
[13:34] Xugu Madison: Signpost: and even if we forbid duplicates, a sim could be disconnected and the next day someone grabs the name
[13:34] SignpostMarv Martin: you can go teleport into them right now
[13:34] Tao Takashi: I agree that right now it's a problem because you cannot choose which one to go to
[13:34] Tao Takashi: you would need some global namespace manager then
[13:34] Gulliver Linden: aren't domain names on the web universally unique?
[13:34] Tao Takashi: and I think we already have that in form of DNS so we don#t need another
[13:34] SignpostMarv Martin: we had the thought the other day of associating a name with the original registrant
[13:34] SignpostMarv Martin: this is of course a purely intra-grid problem
[13:35] SignpostMarv Martin: there shouldn't be any problem with sims on other grids having the same name
[13:35] SignpostMarv Martin: Agni > Aditi for example
[13:35] Gigs Taggart: Gulliver I see region names more like subdomains. Grasmere is subordinate to agni
[13:35] Julie Wasserstrom: This namespace issue has been solved already, IMO with the DNS architecture
[13:35] Saijanai Kuhn: I think the problem is worse with inter-grid if there are duplicate names on the target grid
[13:35] Gigs Taggart: and subdomains are far from universally unique
[13:35] SignpostMarv Martin: pretty much every website has "www" as a subdomain
[13:35] Zero Linden: So, the problem with thinking heirarchaly is that it only work for us engineer types
[13:36] SignpostMarv Martin: preventing that isn't a problem
[13:36] Gigs Taggart: Anyway I don't think that this is a protocol issue.
[13:36] Gulliver Linden: so to continue the domain name analogy... subdomains are unique withint a domain, domains are universally unique. as are the conjunction of subdomain/domains
pairs.
[13:36] Zero Linden: my mother doesn't distinguish amazon.com from amazon.net from amazon.co.tv
[13:36] Zha Ewry: for multiple grids, it's pretty much got to be handled by qualifying names
[13:36] Tao Takashi: Zero: But she distinguishes Market St. in SF from Market St. in Some Other City
[13:36] Whump Linden: but you can always have a tool in front of that handling the disambiguation
[13:36] SignpostMarv Martin: preventing several instances of corsica_reg7 on Agni from cropping up is the issue
[13:36] Tao Takashi: at least I guess she does ;-)
[13:37] Zero Linden: OR - just not assume that the Human title *is* unqiue (though clearly, within a Region Domain, the operator would be free to impose such a restriction)
[13:37] Lillie Yifu: Yes regions should be unique per grid.
[13:37] Zero Linden: Are we worried about the protocol or the phishing?
[13:37] Saijanai Kuhn: ZEro obvoiusly you've never been to the UK. Is it market street or is it Outwestgate street? Depend on which direction you are travelin
[13:37] Gulliver Linden: both?
[13:37] SignpostMarv Martin: usability, navigation *and* phishing
[13:37] SignpostMarv Martin: Zero: the non-unique names thing seems to be an accident
[13:37] Zha Ewry: Phishing, feels to me like something grid owners would have to manage
[13:38] SignpostMarv Martin: Linden Lab's customers and Linden Lab themselves opt for numeric suffixes for cloned sims
[13:38] SignpostMarv Martin: ^See "Help Island" and company
[13:38] Lillie Yifu: hmmmm
[13:38] Lillie Yifu: the protocol should require that region names be unique per grid
[13:38] SignpostMarv Martin: the problem seems to be that when they are attached to the grid but before they are rezzed, they have the same name
[13:38] Zero Linden: Well- I'd posit that within the sole region domain of Agni, even with unique names, at 20k+ regions, we have aleady encountered problems with usability, navigation
*and* phishing
[13:38] Gigs Taggart: Why should the protocol require that.
[13:38] Xugu Madison: I think phishing is worth making a separate topic out of, later
[13:38] Zero Linden: I tell you "Oh, I bought that hair in New York"...
[13:38] Tao Takashi: Zero, you are spilling your coffee
[13:38] Zero Linden: go find it on the Macp
[13:38] Zero Linden: Map
[13:39] Zero Linden: there are four
[13:39] Zero Linden: all have unique names
[13:39] Latif Khalifa: Gigs, teleport urls?
[13:39] Gulliver Linden: I would like to see us support a given name resolving to more than 1 instance. like cnames in DNS
[13:39] Gigs Taggart: Maybe my grid uses regions named the same thing to do load balancing?
[13:39] Lillie Yifu: Because a region ame is part of a URI like a URL is, and each text reference should return one and only one location
[13:39] Lillie Yifu: How that is split up behind the scenes is not important
[13:39] SignpostMarv Martin: load balancing should be transparent
[13:39] Gigs Taggart: I don't see this as a protocol issue.
[13:39] SignpostMarv Martin: this is not about load balancing
[13:39] Gulliver Linden: so Help Island could be "Help Island", and not "Help Island 201", etc...
[13:40] SignpostMarv Martin: this is about seperate sims having the same name within the same grid
[13:40] Lillie Yifu: but if I type in a web page adress, I get one and only on reosurce, even if it is virtual ad put together by many machines
[13:40] Gigs Taggart: Signpost it is not your place to tell me how to do load balancing.
[13:40] Gigs Taggart: The protocol has no business dictating that I do it a certain way.
[13:40] Saijanai Kuhn: its a protocol issue insomuch as users are going to be confused, and we need to provide some way to reduce that confusion if possible
[13:40] SignpostMarv Martin: [4]
[13:40] SignpostMarv Martin: [5]
[13:40] Lillie Yifu: that's assinine gigs
[13:40] SignpostMarv Martin: [6]
[13:40] Lillie Yifu: protocols tell people how to do things
[13:40] Lillie Yifu: that's why they are protocols and not customs
[13:41] Zero Linden: Uhm, let's keep this civil....
[13:41] Oliver Szondi: Thanks G
[13:41] SignpostMarv Martin: as you can see from those links,
[13:41] Zha Ewry: In general, the web, tho, does try, really hard, not to tel you how to handle the resouces, behind a name
[13:41] SignpostMarv Martin: there are several instances of sims with the same name,
[13:41] SignpostMarv Martin: currently online and accessible by the public
[13:42] SignpostMarv Martin: it is my opinion that this should not occur
[13:42] Dahlia Trimble: is it causing a problem?
[13:42] Zha Ewry: (at the same time, when it comes to things like load balancing, its up to you to manage the illusion)
[13:42] SignpostMarv Martin: and that it is the result of accidental lack of foresight
[13:42] Gulliver Linden: Marv: same name, or same base name with a numberic suffix?
[13:42] SignpostMarv Martin: same name
[13:42] Zero Linden: Ick - search the in world map with "corsica_reg7" --- it's fugly!
[13:42] SignpostMarv Martin: 14 all called corsica_reg7
[13:42] Latif Khalifa: looks like agni maintanence issue ;)
[13:42] SignpostMarv Martin: 25 called corsica_reg9
[13:42] SignpostMarv Martin: 11 called corsica_reg4
[13:43] SignpostMarv Martin: from the original problem
[13:43] Gigs Taggart: So what? other than some asthete obsession with "cleanness" and vague waving of the phishing spectre, I haven't heard a good case for why this is a problem.
[13:43] SignpostMarv Martin: Yoz Linden: Currently, these regions aren't live, which is why the names aren't unique
[13:43] Dahlia Trimble: oops double clicked :/
[13:44] SignpostMarv Martin: Gigs, the problem is you can't choose which sim you teleport to via a secondlife:// link
[13:44] Gigs Taggart: so?
[13:44] Latif Khalifa: lol
[13:44] Saijanai Kuhn: some people perceive this as an issue...
[13:44] SignpostMarv Martin: which is a usability and navigation problem,
[13:44] Tess Linden: what if that link gives you a list of region_urls with that name?
[13:44] SignpostMarv Martin: and allows for phishing to occur
[13:45] Gigs Taggart: The grid owner can just forbid that on their grid if they don't want it to happen.
[13:45] Tess Linden: or brought up the map with the search results
[13:45] Infinity Linden: Tess... this is part of what X.400 did
[13:45] Saijanai Kuhn: Giggs do you have loads of duplicate names on yoru grid?
[13:45] Zero Linden: Well - if a region domain operator wishes to build a URL scheme that doesn't manage to uniquely map to each of their regions.... I'm not sure that that won't just
self correct
[13:45] Infinity Linden: if you gave a directory a vague query, it would return a list
[13:45] SignpostMarv Martin: if non-unique region names are to be allowed,
[13:45] SignpostMarv Martin: then secondlife:///app/region/0bb04f2e-2d9f-4c99-b141-5ef6a8af2211/about type links need to be supported by the viewer
[13:46] Oliver Szondi: i would like to know about the inventory servers from what i saw at the demo grid people were ruthed if somthing like this opensim-secondlife was to happen would
there be a planned inventory server transfer?
[13:46] Zero Linden: "allows for phishing" -- we need to explore how we think people will use Region names to see how that might happen
[13:46] Infinity Linden: it seems to impose a policy of "you must support interactive use"
[13:46] Tree Kyomoon: what is the character limit on a region name?
[13:46] Saijanai Kuhn: Olier its happening for multiple opensims starting thursday
[13:46] SignpostMarv Martin: 63
[13:46] Infinity Linden: mumbles something about DNSSec to herself
[13:47] Zero Linden: Oliver - we can put that on the agenda for Thursday's office hour - the agenda for today is pretty booked (me thinks)
[13:47] Oliver Szondi: cheers sai
[13:47] SignpostMarv Martin: oddly, not 64
[13:47] Tree Kyomoon: 42 would have been better
[13:47] Oliver Szondi: cheers Z :)
[13:47] SignpostMarv Martin: no region on Agni has a name longer than 32 characters though :-s
[13:47] SignpostMarv Martin: possibly 34, i forget
[13:48] Tree Kyomoon: /thanks sign post
[13:48] Xugu Madison: Can we bump that up to 127/128 to give us plenty more scope for unique names?
[13:48] SignpostMarv Martin: lol
[13:48] Zero Linden: For example
[13:48] Rex Cronon: why not 255?
[13:49] Saijanai Kuhn: short UTF-8 names
[13:49] SignpostMarv Martin: my point of view is that with computer networks, you can't have the same name on the same network
[13:49] Xugu Madison: 255 sounds good
[13:49] Tree Kyomoon: or mabey multi-dimentional names that Id have to cut your tongue out for you to pronounce properly?
[13:49] Latif Khalifa: look at the menu bar, that's why ;)
[13:49] Infinity Linden: 640k should be enough for everyone
[13:49] Winne Woodget: giggles
[13:49] Xugu Madison: "Minerva Island @ Archipelago owned by University of St Andrews" - Okay, that's not even 63 is it... but I think plenty of space for uniqueness is good!
[13:49] Rex Cronon: the menu bar is a gui limitation
[13:49] SignpostMarv Martin: though I could configure my router or my computer to find signpostmarv.name on a local dev box instead of the one on the internets
[13:49] Zero Linden: off-hand, I don't know the address (DNS name or URL) for, say, Herman Miller
[13:49] Saijanai Kuhn: but that's still less than 100K for max-len UTF-8
[13:50] Zero Linden: And indeed, in the world of names, that isn't unique
[13:50] SignpostMarv Martin: historically speaking,
[13:50] Infinity Linden: which is why google and yahoo exist
[13:50] Zero Linden: though unique in the world of furniture makers
[13:50] SignpostMarv Martin: aside from this oddity with freshly-rezzed sims,
[13:50] SignpostMarv Martin: region names have been unique
[13:50] Whump Linden: yes, we should probably assume people will use the search bar as the URL bar
[13:50] SignpostMarv Martin: I would have thought if Linden Lab intentionally wanted to support non-unique names,
[13:50] Multi Gadget: v2.0.3b by Timeless Prototype, '/44 info'
[13:50] Zero Linden: Using a search engine yields a number of URLs, all of who's titles start "Herman Miller"
[13:51] Zero Linden: they are uniquely addressable
[13:51] SignpostMarv Martin: then all the instances of Help Island and Orientation Island would just be called "Help Island" or "Orientation Island"
[13:51] SignpostMarv Martin: addressable != named
[13:51] Zero Linden: and in theory some might be phising sites
[13:51] Zero Linden: (I do, by the way, think that the issue of supporting (gasp) shards, should be a different discussion)
[13:51] Tao Takashi: crashed the hard way...
[13:51] Saijanai Kuhn: Cmake again?
[13:52] Bartholomew Kleiber: lol
[13:52] Tao Takashi: no, just SL ;-)
[13:52] Gulliver Linden: Zero -- can we put that on an upcoming agenda?
[13:52] Tao Takashi: not sure what happened, SL never crashed before..
[13:52] Zero Linden: Yes - just remember to mention it at the start of a meeting! :-)
[13:52] Zha Ewry: Shards, clearly is a seperate discussion, since, theyre, you're alisaing the name, in a very different way
[13:52] SignpostMarv Martin: so... Zero- do you believe that the non-unique region name support in Second Life is accidental or intentional
[13:53] Rex Cronon: it seems that each sim has a unique locaction on the grid(x,y, and possibly), so having duplicate sim names shouldn't be a prblem
[13:53] Zero Linden: in SL today? I have no information to form a belief on that question
[13:53] Rex Cronon: possibly z*
[13:53] Tao Takashi: Rex: as long as you have some meaning of identifying them
[13:53] Zero Linden: I suspect many people designed parts of SL with the assumption of them being unique (take the design of SLURLs for example)
[13:53] Tao Takashi: and to choose where to teleport
[13:54] SignpostMarv Martin: the viewer itself has mixed feelings
[13:54] Saijanai Kuhn: as long as the coordinates are available i case of duplicates, this would sove the problem for any inter-grid TP also
[13:54] SignpostMarv Martin: the world map window supports them
[13:54] SignpostMarv Martin: but teleportation doesn't
[13:54] Zero Linden: okay- I'm going to cut this a little short - as we have another item to briefly get to
[13:54] Tao Takashi: well, we have duplicate cities in RL..
[13:54] Lillie Yifu: So long as typing in tcp/ip numbers for servers is your idea of not a problem.
[13:54] Tao Takashi: IPv6
[13:55] Lillie Yifu: which is why post offices inflict things like zip codes on us
[13:55] SignpostMarv Martin: Tao: you don't generally have the same city in the same county
[13:55] Saijanai Kuhn: x/y/z or whate ver
[13:55] Rex Cronon: and each city is located at different locations around the globe:)
[13:55] Zero Linden: ponders [7] vs. [8] ....
[13:55] Lillie Yifu: and x,y,z do *not* define a region stably
[13:55] Tao Takashi: sign: right, that's why you'd need some other form of identification here, too
[13:55] Oliver Szondi: lol
[13:55] Lillie Yifu: becuase regions can be moved arbitrarily on a grid
[13:55] Tao Takashi: and x,y,z is also not easy to remember
[13:55] Tree Kyomoon: before we close...lindens I want to personally thank you for this incredibly stable release candidate...7 hour straight use and no crashing!
[13:55] SignpostMarv Martin: regions are uniquely identified by their UUID
[13:55] Lillie Yifu: which you are inflicting on other peopel to leanr and keep track of.
[13:55] Saijanai Kuhn: likewise
[13:55] Oliver Szondi: its brillernt!
[13:55] Tao Takashi: well, UUIDs of course are easy to remember :)
[13:56] Oliver Szondi: i love the new client!!!!!!!!!
[13:56] Gigs Taggart: Shameless Plug: If you are on the fence about going to /registering for SLCC.. I'd like to point out that we have an entire Open Source track this year, with
several panels and presentations related to architecture. slconvention.org. Hotel space is running low, so don't wait too long.
[13:56] Zero Linden: ponders [9]
[13:56] G2 Proto: lol
[13:56] Infinity Linden: without getting into a discussion about "london above" and "london below" I would point ou that in the first life..different cities with the same name cannot
occupy the same space
[13:56] Oliver Szondi: ty for the best client ever!
[13:56] Tao Takashi: I cannot make it this year unfortunately
[13:56] Tao Takashi: Gigs: do you also plan on some sprints?
[13:56] Tree Kyomoon: I can go virtually
[13:56] G2 Proto: [10]
[13:56] Tree Kyomoon: physical travel is sooooo last year
[13:56] Zero Linden: okay -
[13:56] Gigs Taggart: Tao I wasn't planning on it, but maybe hehe
[13:56] Zero Linden: anyone have anything to say about.....
[13:56] Lillie Yifu: um ril they do
[13:57] Zero Linden: 3) Beta!!!!!
[13:57] G2 Proto: woot hu7rumph
[13:57] Oliver Szondi: WooT
[13:57] Tao Takashi: Gigs: it would make sense in case some devs are around and want to get some hacking done I guess
[13:57] Infinity Linden: oh.. .there's a beta happening? i hadn't heard.
[13:57] SignpostMarv Martin: Zero, clarification: is point 2 "currently undecided" ?
[13:57] G2 Proto: lol
[13:57] Gigs Taggart: Tao I'm not sure how many actual devs are coming.
[13:57] Tao Takashi: there is a dev sandbox hhappening ;-)
[13:57] Rex Cronon: when can we tp to it, and back?
[13:57] Zero Linden: Yes - I think point 2 will require further thought and study ---yes?
[13:57] Tao Takashi: I assume with an agent domain of my own for now I cannot TP into LL regions, right?
[13:58] Zero Linden: yes
[13:58] Infinity Linden: @Tao... for the time being
[13:58] Zero Linden: I believe that is right
[13:58] Tao Takashi: ok
[13:58] Tao Takashi: well, right now i cannot connect to them so I guess that will stay that way
[13:58] Infinity Linden: goes and runs and checks if we turned off external access
[13:58] Tao Takashi: but will the client support some cmdline switch to let me define the AD to use?
[13:59] Latif Khalifa: but will the TP out for any other region domain, or is there a list of pre-approved ones?
[13:59] Latif Khalifa: work for*
[13:59] Tao Takashi: Inf: the interop tests are not running for me from here so I guess there is no access
[13:59] Tao Takashi: but that's ok, I can test with opensim
[14:00] Tao Takashi: I just need a way to specify the agent domain url so I can test it with that client
[14:01] Xugu Madison: Going to run along, thanks for hosting Zero, thanks for the discussion everyone else
[14:01] Tree Kyomoon: thanks zero!
[14:01] Zero Linden: Indeed - thanks for coming everyone
[14:01] Tree Kyomoon: posting log...
[14:01] Tao Takashi: cya Xugu!
[14:01] Rex Cronon: bye everybody
[14:01] Gulliver Linden: bye all!
[14:01] Tree Kyomoon: yes, tree is posting a log...perhaps I'll leaf after I branch out
[14:01] Rex Cronon: have fun
[14:02] Saijanai Kuhn: Zero, one last little thing, you might consider a blog entry BEFORE the metanomics discussion...
[14:02] Bartholomew Kleiber: bye, all, too
[14:02] Latif Khalifa: erm

User:Zero Linden/Office Hours/2008 July 29

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