User:Zero Linden/Office Hours/2008 July 29

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  • [12:52] Winne Woodget: looks at tree: EEEK a skelington!
  • [12:52] Winne Woodget: giggles
  • [12:52] Xugu Madison: Afternoon all
  • [12:52] Winne Woodget: hello
  • [12:53] Omegadon Aeon: Hey
  • [12:53] Cel Edman: hi there people
  • [12:53] Winne Woodget: waves at koffeekid
  • [12:54] Winne Woodget: any topic for today yet anyone?
  • [12:54] Winne Woodget: lol
  • [12:55] Saijanai Kuhn: aside from Sign post wanting to talk about duplicate sim names...
  • [12:55] Winne Woodget:  :)
  • [12:55] Rex Cronon: hello everybody
  • [12:56] Saijanai Kuhn: BTW, anyone not a member of AW Grupies should IM me or Zha about an invite. Probably me since Zha is super busy today
  • [12:56] Zha Ewry: looks up distracredly and says 'Busy? that only begins to describe it"
  • [12:57] Winne Woodget: giggles
  • [12:58] Tree Kyomoon: so is there a general report on the new sims at IBM? are they public or selling yet?
  • [13:00] Tree Kyomoon: anyone tried cuil.com yet?
  • [13:01] Saijanai Kuhn: The Grouppies meeting this morning was about the OGPB starting on Thursday (which is why zha is super DUBER busy):
  • https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-07-29
  • [13:01] Saijanai Kuhn: super DUPER*
  • [13:01] Tao Takashi: Hello
  • [13:01] Bartholomew Kleiber: hi
  • [13:01] Tree Kyomoon: ciao tao!
  • [13:01] Julie Wasserstrom: Hello everyone
  • [13:02] Omegadon Aeon: Hey
  • [13:02] Rex Cronon: hi
  • [13:02] Dahlia Trimble: hi :)
  • [13:02] Infinity Linden: hmm.. isZero here?
  • [13:02] Omegadon Aeon: Nope
  • [13:02] Winne Woodget: doesnt look like it yet
  • [13:02] Infinity Linden: I don't see him
  • [13:02] Tree Kyomoon: tao if you search awgroupies on cuil.com your name comes up first!
  • [13:03] Infinity Linden: 'k cool.. .not just me
  • [13:03] Omegadon Aeon: There is zero
  • [13:03] Lillie Yifu: hihi
  • [13:03] Bartholomew Kleiber: hi
  • [13:03] Lillie Yifu: So what is today's plot to take over the world?
  • [13:04] Zero Linden: First... each avatar gets a very large mega-prim....
  • [13:04] Omegadon Aeon: Yay
  • [13:04] Infinity Linden: yay... editable.. animatable mega meshes!
  • [13:04] Zha Ewry: Zero, Are you thinking what I'm thinking?
  • [13:04] Zero Linden: ...then the flexy skirts are linked in....
  • [13:04] Omegadon Aeon: Go rez about 10 65k sq m mega prims in each sim
  • [13:04] Rex Cronon: hello zero, u bring free megaprims?
  • [13:04] Winne Woodget: giggles
  • [13:04] Zero Linden: I think so, brain, but how will we extract Brad Pitt from the pudding?
  • [13:04] Winne Woodget: giggles
  • [13:05] Lillie Yifu: careful or I will wear "In the Belly of the Beast"
  • [13:05] Saijanai Kuhn: Zero's been watching INLAND EMPIRE: the hookers singing "DO the Locomition"
  • [13:05] Tree Kyomoon: burlap chafes me so
  • [13:05] Infinity Linden: closes her ears
  • [13:05] Lillie Yifu: 4 256M megaprims - flexy
  • [13:05] Zero Linden: wow - quite a crowd today
  • [13:05] Zha Ewry: shakes her head softly, Brad Pitt, *so* doesn't belong in the pudding.
  • [13:05] Zha Ewry: *narf&
  • [13:05] Infinity Linden: don't know what's weirder: Lynch films or mega meshed avatars
  • [13:05] Winne Woodget: lol
  • [13:06] Whump Linden: thinks he walked in on an interesting conversation.
  • [13:06] Omegadon Aeon: lol
  • [13:06] Lillie Yifu: can you still do the mega avatar thing? I thought that was close off.
  • [13:06] Saijanai Kuhn: contemplates what a David Lynch-designed sim would be like
  • [13:06] Zero Linden: So - what shall be on the Agenda?
  • [13:06] Winne Woodget: was just going to ask that
  • [13:07] Saijanai Kuhn: and don't laugh. I know the pres of his foundation for 30 years now
  • [13:07] Infinity Linden: i'm prepared to discuss maintenance if you want
  • [13:07] Zero Linden: Oh -and "Welcome to my office hourse...blah blah.... open, speak freely, transcript posted ... blah blah...."
  • [13:08] Zero Linden: okay ...
  • [13:08] Zero Linden: 1) Maintenance
  • [13:08] Zero Linden: and... ?
  • [13:08] Tree Kyomoon: an office horse is a horse of course
  • [13:09] Zero Linden: ....unless, of course, the prim, of course, is the famous meg-a-prim!
  • [13:09] Infinity Linden: oh... i know Meg Prim... went to college with her
  • [13:09] Zero Linden: sorry - PLEEEZE don't get me going riffing on 70s TV tunes
  • [13:09] SignpostMarv Martin: 2) non-unique region names within a single grid
  • [13:09] Tree Kyomoon:  ;)
  • [13:10] Zero Linden: Oh... I like 2)
  • [13:10] Zero Linden: so
  • [13:10] Infinity Linden: whispers "staying alive" into Zero's ear
  • [13:10] Zero Linden: 2) Unique/non-unique region names
  • [13:10] Dahlia Trimble: ewwww beegees
  • [13:10] SignpostMarv Martin: 2) has usability, navigation and phishing problems associated with it
  • [13:10] Infinity Linden: personally I like the resident's cover of stayin' alive better
  • [13:10] Aramis Tolsen: don't they have unique UUIDs?
  • [13:10] SignpostMarv Martin: yep
  • [13:10] Zero Linden: ....Whether your a Sculptie or whether your a Flexy you are Rezin' Alive, Rezin' Alive....
  • [13:10] SignpostMarv Martin: see [1]
  • [13:10] Saijanai Kuhn: OGP Beta start tomorrow (3)
  • [13:10] Zero Linden: dang!
  • [13:10] Dahlia Trimble: havent heard that one
  • [13:11] Whump Linden: I just want to hear that acapella version of "Backwater" again.
  • [13:11] Zero Linden: SOLD!
  • [13:11] Infinity Linden: enh... so the webmap API breaks thte laws of physics
  • [13:11] Zero Linden: 3) OGP Beta start
  • [13:11] SignpostMarv Martin: Infinity: that was the original problem
  • [13:11] Infinity Linden: humms eno lyrics to herself
  • [13:11] SignpostMarv Martin: it's now cropped up in-world
  • [13:11] Xugu Madison: Is there any way we could have signed regions, like SSL certificates are signed?
  • [13:11] Zero Linden: And no, Infinity and Zero doing Eno just really shouldn't be foisted upon anyone
  • [13:11] Omegadon Aeon: If i may ask, what is OG{?
  • [13:11] SignpostMarv Martin: Open Grid Protocol
  • [13:12] Omegadon Aeon: Oh ok
  • [13:12] Winne Woodget: seconds zugus SSL region idea
  • [13:12] Aramis Tolsen: right but don't use the word grid ;)
  • [13:12] Infinity Linden: thinks to disappear from signed region discussion before someone notices her name on teh X.509 spec
  • [13:12] SignpostMarv Martin: that bit what lets you teleport from Agni to OpenSim
  • [13:12] Infinity Linden: authenticated teleport is probably a different discussion from attesteation of verity of sim info
  • [13:12] Saijanai Kuhn: Aditi to OpenSIm right now
  • [13:13] Omegadon Aeon: Yeah i saw tat in Torley Lindens video, of the Gridnauts tp from Aditi to the OpenSim, that was very interesting
  • [13:13] Xugu Madison: Infinity, I more meant so that you know where you are is where it claims to be, rather than where you're going... something like that...
  • [13:13] SignpostMarv Martin: would be fun just to be able to teleport from Agni to Aditi
  • [13:13] Lillie Yifu: also opensim to open sim
  • [13:13] Saijanai Kuhn: That would be doable *someday*
  • [13:14] Saijanai Kuhn: opensim to opensim I thought was doable already
  • [13:14] SignpostMarv Martin: I'd imagine OGP would allow the Teen Grid to be shifted off into an actually seperate grid
  • [13:14] Infinity Linden: hmm..I'm going to note the interest in signed region info.. but that's a discussion for a future meetin...
  • [13:14] SignpostMarv Martin: as opposed to psuedo-seperate
  • [13:14] Zero Linden: OKAY
  • [13:14] Zero Linden: bangs the gavel
  • [13:14] BlueWall Slade: lol
  • [13:14] Zha Ewry: looksup
  • [13:14] Zero Linden: 1) Maintenance
  • [13:15] Zero Linden: Infinity - you have something to propose, discuss, toss out?
  • [13:15] Infinity Linden: oh.. am i up?
  • [13:15] Infinity Linden: yeah
  • [13:15] Infinity Linden: so
  • [13:15] Infinity Linden: as weall know.. .maintenance is good
  • [13:15] Infinity Linden: but taking the grid down is bad
  • [13:15] Infinity Linden: so we make use of "per-user login-time maintenance"
  • [13:15] Infinity Linden: for some things
  • [13:16] Infinity Linden: so when you login, the system says.. ."hey... maybe we should update some aspect of this agent's {inventory|profilewhatebver}
  • [13:16] Infinity Linden: right now the maintenance process is "nearly" transparent
  • [13:16] Infinity Linden: for some definition o the term "transparent"
  • [13:17] Infinity Linden: but in the future... when OGP is deployed
  • [13:17] Infinity Linden: we wanted to be able to alert clients doing authentication that:
  • [13:17] Infinity Linden: a) your authentication is correct, but b) you won't be able to log in immedaitely 'cause of maintenance
  • [13:18] Zha Ewry: "We're rumaghing through your bits, and you can't have them"
  • [13:18] SignpostMarv Martin: Oh joy. the resurection of "Under Construction" pages :-P
  • [13:18] Infinity Linden: so we added a bit of verbage to teh bottom of the teleport strawman to document our concerns, thoughts, etc.
  • [13:18] Lillie Yifu: "we are washing your naughty bits. You can have them back when they are clean."
  • [13:18] Infinity Linden: but hte major part of the maintenance proposal
  • [13:18] Gigs Taggart: couldn't most of that be changed to a low priority background process that does everyone
  • [13:18] Infinity Linden: is
  • [13:19] Gigs Taggart: instead of making it login triggered which makes the process never end
  • [13:19] Infinity Linden: you don't have to authenticate more than once... and the agent domain should tell teh viewer what's really going on
  • [13:19] Gigs Taggart: basically with a "on use" migration strategy, the migration is never done because of the long tail of people that haven't logged in in forever
  • [13:19] Infinity Linden: so the viewer won't be sitting there thinking... "how long is this going to take?"
  • [13:19] Infinity Linden: practical issues...
  • [13:19] SignpostMarv Martin: hrm
  • [13:20] SignpostMarv Martin: question
  • [13:20] Infinity Linden: if you authenticate correctly... your viewer may receive a "reason code" that says "maintenance is occuring"
  • [13:20] Infinity Linden: yup Sign...
  • [13:20] SignpostMarv Martin: when you get that maintenance message, would you be disconnected from your current location already ?
  • [13:20] Infinity Linden: nope
  • [13:20] Zha Ewry: It would be at login
  • [13:21] Infinity Linden: maintenance happens after authentication but before we think about presence
  • [13:21] Infinity Linden: and befoer we TP in to our first region
  • [13:21] SignpostMarv Martin: other question, a usability/interface one
  • [13:21] Lillie Yifu: kk I have a question. I maitenance necessary for everyone? Or can you go without it?
  • [13:21] Winne Woodget: Optional maintnenace?
  • [13:22] Cel Edman: Well just mention it takes between 1/5minutes. (or come back in 24hours? -> people will be pissed i guess)
  • [13:22] Winne Woodget: optional*
  • [13:22] Infinity Linden: okay...
  • [13:22] SignpostMarv Martin: if there is an ETA for the region to become available, would/should the viewer be given the ability to be notified when the region is now available
  • [13:22] Saijanai Kuhn: It seems to me that other grids will have this same issue, so best to develop some policy about it
  • [13:22] Zha Ewry: Its not a region issue
  • [13:22] Zero Linden: remember - this isn't region maintenence, it is agent domain avatar account maintnence
  • [13:22] Infinity Linden: lemme say that the type of maintenance we're talking about currently takes between 5 and 30 seconds
  • [13:22] Zha Ewry: This one.. is "The Agent Domain can't do stuff for you for awhile"
  • [13:22] Infinity Linden: maybe more if you have a bazillion inventory items
  • [13:22] Saijanai Kuhn: ah, OK, my bad
  • [13:22] SignpostMarv Martin: e.g. inter-grid teleport > OH NOES! maintenance > 5 minutes later , "the region you tried to teleport into is now available. do you wish to go there now ?"
  • [13:22] Infinity Linden: and
  • [13:23] Infinity Linden: the "maintenance response" frmo authentication
  • [13:23] Infinity Linden: will have a time estimate attached to it
  • [13:23] Zero Linden: puts pinky to mouth: "A BAZILLION inventory items..."
  • [13:23] Infinity Linden: so the viewer candisplay something
  • [13:23] Infinity Linden: and..
  • [13:23] Infinity Linden: someone mentioned optional maintenance
  • [13:23] Infinity Linden: and honestly
  • [13:23] Saijanai Kuhn: Zero channeling Mike Meyers. Time to go watch strange Lunch movies
  • [13:23] Infinity Linden: i didn't think of that
  • [13:23] Saijanai Kuhn: Lynch*
  • [13:24] Julie Wasserstrom: Does the inventory maintenance have to lock the user out?
  • [13:24] Infinity Linden: 'cause right now all the maintenance _we_ do is not optional
  • [13:24] Infinity Linden: but for other people running other agent domains
  • [13:24] Infinity Linden: they might have that as an option
  • [13:24] Latif Khalifa: doesn't the current login protocol have an redirect that basically tells the viewer go sleep x seconds?
  • [13:24] Infinity Linden: so i have to noodle on that a touch
  • [13:24] Pierre Roelofs: Will it be possible for the viewer to display a progress bar and a cancel button while the update is occuring?
  • [13:25] Infinity Linden: Latif... yeah... we'er basically reusing taht concept
  • [13:25] BlueWall Slade: is it something that can be queued for the instant the agent logs off?
  • [13:25] Infinity Linden: Pierre... yup.. that's the kind of thing we want to enable
  • [13:25] Julie Wasserstrom: How about a model where the maintenance is done behind the scenes, sync'd to the real one at completion and then a switch is done?
  • [13:25] Gigs Taggart: I already commented on the login discussion about a deferred login path
  • [13:25] Infinity Linden: BlueWall... the problem we have is that sometimes people don't log off cleanly
  • [13:25] Gigs Taggart: "What is the exchange here for an expired password that needs to be changed before logging in? I'm not sure this should be a straight failure. Is it possible to
  • rework "select agent" to request arbitrary additional information? Making this bit extensible might be a good thing."
  • [13:25] Infinity Linden: but yeah... that's a model
  • [13:25] SignpostMarv Martin: I'm going to hazard a guess maintenance will apply to the Agent Domain as well as the Region Domain ?
  • [13:26] BlueWall Slade: yep, true :)
  • [13:26] Infinity Linden: and Julie... that also is a model
  • [13:26] Gigs Taggart: I'm hinting at a need for a deferred but not failed login there
  • [13:26] Tess Linden: we could extend the protocol for optional maintenance by returning 'maintenace_optional' as the key, so that on next login, you would indicate 'skip_maintenance' :
  • True
  • [13:26] Infinity Linden: Gigs.. that's exactly what we're talking about here
  • [13:26] Zero Linden: Well - the issue is that if the protocol doesn't recognize that there is the possibility of a "auth'd, but not ready for action" state, then all implementors have
  • to do the more difficult implementation of maintenance that can be done in parallel
  • [13:26] Lillie Yifu: What about doing the maitenance when the user clears the cache?
  • [13:26] Lillie Yifu: They are going to be inventory lagged for a while anyway.
  • [13:27] Infinity Linden: also... just 'cause we do maintenance at login time doesn't mean we can build stuff hat uses a different maintenance model
  • [13:27] Gigs Taggart: Yeah zero it would be good if it could also encompass other login deferred scenarios like my failed password.
  • [13:27] Lillie Yifu: (Speaks as one who knows)
  • [13:27] Zero Linden: okay - looks like Infinity you have some new possible use cases and some possible approaches....
  • [13:27] Gigs Taggart: expired password rather
  • [13:27] Infinity Linden: it just means that we're providing a mechanism for the agent domain to alert teh viewer that the auth was successful, but ew're not quite ready yet
  • [13:27] Gigs Taggart: TOS agreement could be another deferred login
  • [13:27] Zero Linden: exactly what I was thinking, Gigs
  • [13:27] Zero Linden: okay
  • [13:28] Infinity Linden: Gigs... from our perspective...not accepting the TOS is an auth failure
  • [13:28] Zero Linden: ducks
  • [13:28] Zha Ewry: cringes
  • [13:28] BlueWall Slade: lo
  • [13:28] SignpostMarv Martin: deferred as in "whoops, I didn't mean to do that" ?
  • [13:28] Saijanai Kuhn: though, with bots, you can fake it
  • [13:28] BlueWall Slade: l
  • [13:28] Infinity Linden: but yeah... i have enough to go off and type up some more sage comments
  • [13:28] Zha Ewry: Its not *quite* an oauth failure
  • [13:28] Zero Linden: goood
  • [13:29] Zero Linden: let's leave it at that before someone starts slinging TOSes about....
  • [13:29] Zero Linden: SO
  • [13:29] Infinity Linden: and
  • [13:29] Zero Linden: 2) Unique/non-unique region names
  • [13:29] Infinity Linden: here's what i have now
  • [13:29] Infinity Linden: [2]
  • [13:29] Zero Linden: Cool - thanks, Infinity
  • [13:29] Infinity Linden: thx fer listening, everybody
  • [13:29] Zha Ewry: good stuff, Infinity
  • [13:30] Tao Takashi: thanks Infinity, cool stuff indeed
  • [13:30] Zero Linden: okay - so I take there is a question brough up by "oh my - how the heck can there be two regions on the grid with the same name?!?!?!?"
  • [13:30] Saijanai Kuhn: adds interop category at bottom so you can find it faster
  • [13:30] Tao Takashi: because they have different URLs?
  • [13:31] SignpostMarv Martin: the question of "how" isn't the question
  • [13:31] SignpostMarv Martin: the question is "why"
  • [13:31] SignpostMarv Martin: originally, the issue was with the webmap API
  • [13:31] Xugu Madison: "What do we do about it" is also a good one
  • [13:31] SignpostMarv Martin: Yoz Linden looked into it,
  • [13:31] SignpostMarv Martin: and it seemed to be an offline-only reference
  • [13:31] Zero Linden: hmmmmmmmmmmm.............
  • [13:31] SignpostMarv Martin: e.g. before sims were brought online
  • [13:31] SignpostMarv Martin: however,
  • [13:31] SignpostMarv Martin: I recently discovered 18 sims in 3 groups of names sharing identical names among them
  • [13:32] Xugu Madison: Personally, I'm tempted to say we disallow it, and any grid admin that wants to change that does so at their owk risk
  • [13:32] Zha Ewry: Feels like a namespace management issue
  • [13:32] SignpostMarv Martin: the UUID dump is attached to [3]
  • [13:32] Zha Ewry: just like if you get hostX twice in foo.com, you're unhappy.
  • [13:32] SignpostMarv Martin: it's a usability problem because secondlife://corsica_reg7/128/128/0 type links don't let you choose which one you want to teleport to
  • [13:32] Saijanai Kuhn: Inicdentally, generic index is: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Category:Grid_Interoperability
  • [13:32] Latif Khalifa: it should be disallowed imho
  • [13:32] Xugu Madison: and getting people to remember UUIDs could be tricky
  • [13:33] SignpostMarv Martin: it's a navigation problem because if you're in one corsica_reg7 sim, you have to make sure you click on the right one before teleporting into another one
  • [13:33] Xugu Madison: how long can island names be?
  • [13:33] BlueWall Slade: it might be useful to have the same region name if you wanted to cluster them for performance reasons, and have the name the same for asthetics?
  • [13:33] Tao Takashi: well, I wouldn't disallow it in a decentralized grid
  • [13:33] Tao Takashi: but maybe per region domain
  • [13:33] SignpostMarv Martin: it's a phishing problem because it theoretically allows someone to put up an identically named region filled with porn
  • [13:33] Gigs Taggart: Yes I was surprised when linden lab started having duplicate name sims :P
  • [13:33] Zero Linden: So, if I were defining protocols (which I am) for the web-map (which I am not), I'd really try to not rely on the human (or furry) readable name of the region in my
  • API
  • [13:34] SignpostMarv Martin: Zero: there are currently several instances of corsica_reg7 *online*
  • [13:34] Xugu Madison: Signpost: and even if we forbid duplicates, a sim could be disconnected and the next day someone grabs the name
  • [13:34] SignpostMarv Martin: you can go teleport into them right now
  • [13:34] Tao Takashi: I agree that right now it's a problem because you cannot choose which one to go to
  • [13:34] Tao Takashi: you would need some global namespace manager then
  • [13:34] Gulliver Linden: aren't domain names on the web universally unique?
  • [13:34] Tao Takashi: and I think we already have that in form of DNS so we don#t need another
  • [13:34] SignpostMarv Martin: we had the thought the other day of associating a name with the original registrant
  • [13:34] SignpostMarv Martin: this is of course a purely intra-grid problem
  • [13:35] SignpostMarv Martin: there shouldn't be any problem with sims on other grids having the same name
  • [13:35] SignpostMarv Martin: Agni > Aditi for example
  • [13:35] Gigs Taggart: Gulliver I see region names more like subdomains. Grasmere is subordinate to agni
  • [13:35] Julie Wasserstrom: This namespace issue has been solved already, IMO with the DNS architecture
  • [13:35] Saijanai Kuhn: I think the problem is worse with inter-grid if there are duplicate names on the target grid
  • [13:35] Gigs Taggart: and subdomains are far from universally unique
  • [13:35] SignpostMarv Martin: pretty much every website has "www" as a subdomain
  • [13:35] Zero Linden: So, the problem with thinking heirarchaly is that it only work for us engineer types
  • [13:36] SignpostMarv Martin: preventing that isn't a problem
  • [13:36] Gigs Taggart: Anyway I don't think that this is a protocol issue.
  • [13:36] Gulliver Linden: so to continue the domain name analogy... subdomains are unique withint a domain, domains are universally unique. as are the conjunction of subdomain/domains
  • pairs.
  • [13:36] Zero Linden: my mother doesn't distinguish amazon.com from amazon.net from amazon.co.tv
  • [13:36] Zha Ewry: for multiple grids, it's pretty much got to be handled by qualifying names
  • [13:36] Tao Takashi: Zero: But she distinguishes Market St. in SF from Market St. in Some Other City
  • [13:36] Whump Linden: but you can always have a tool in front of that handling the disambiguation
  • [13:36] SignpostMarv Martin: preventing several instances of corsica_reg7 on Agni from cropping up is the issue
  • [13:36] Tao Takashi: at least I guess she does ;-)
  • [13:37] Zero Linden: OR - just not assume that the Human title *is* unqiue (though clearly, within a Region Domain, the operator would be free to impose such a restriction)
  • [13:37] Lillie Yifu: Yes regions should be unique per grid.
  • [13:37] Zero Linden: Are we worried about the protocol or the phishing?
  • [13:37] Saijanai Kuhn: ZEro obvoiusly you've never been to the UK. Is it market street or is it Outwestgate street? Depend on which direction you are travelin
  • [13:37] Gulliver Linden: both?
  • [13:37] SignpostMarv Martin: usability, navigation *and* phishing
  • [13:37] SignpostMarv Martin: Zero: the non-unique names thing seems to be an accident
  • [13:37] Zha Ewry: Phishing, feels to me like something grid owners would have to manage
  • [13:38] SignpostMarv Martin: Linden Lab's customers and Linden Lab themselves opt for numeric suffixes for cloned sims
  • [13:38] SignpostMarv Martin: ^See "Help Island" and company
  • [13:38] Lillie Yifu: hmmmm
  • [13:38] Lillie Yifu: the protocol should require that region names be unique per grid
  • [13:38] SignpostMarv Martin: the problem seems to be that when they are attached to the grid but before they are rezzed, they have the same name
  • [13:38] Zero Linden: Well- I'd posit that within the sole region domain of Agni, even with unique names, at 20k+ regions, we have aleady encountered problems with usability, navigation
  • *and* phishing
  • [13:38] Gigs Taggart: Why should the protocol require that.
  • [13:38] Xugu Madison: I think phishing is worth making a separate topic out of, later
  • [13:38] Zero Linden: I tell you "Oh, I bought that hair in New York"...
  • [13:38] Tao Takashi: Zero, you are spilling your coffee
  • [13:38] Zero Linden: go find it on the Macp
  • [13:38] Zero Linden: Map
  • [13:39] Zero Linden: there are four
  • [13:39] Zero Linden: all have unique names
  • [13:39] Latif Khalifa: Gigs, teleport urls?
  • [13:39] Gulliver Linden: I would like to see us support a given name resolving to more than 1 instance. like cnames in DNS
  • [13:39] Gigs Taggart: Maybe my grid uses regions named the same thing to do load balancing?
  • [13:39] Lillie Yifu: Because a region ame is part of a URI like a URL is, and each text reference should return one and only one location
  • [13:39] Lillie Yifu: How that is split up behind the scenes is not important
  • [13:39] SignpostMarv Martin: load balancing should be transparent
  • [13:39] Gigs Taggart: I don't see this as a protocol issue.
  • [13:39] SignpostMarv Martin: this is not about load balancing
  • [13:39] Gulliver Linden: so Help Island could be "Help Island", and not "Help Island 201", etc...
  • [13:40] SignpostMarv Martin: this is about seperate sims having the same name within the same grid
  • [13:40] Lillie Yifu: but if I type in a web page adress, I get one and only on reosurce, even if it is virtual ad put together by many machines
  • [13:40] Gigs Taggart: Signpost it is not your place to tell me how to do load balancing.
  • [13:40] Gigs Taggart: The protocol has no business dictating that I do it a certain way.
  • [13:40] Saijanai Kuhn: its a protocol issue insomuch as users are going to be confused, and we need to provide some way to reduce that confusion if possible
  • [13:40] SignpostMarv Martin: [4]
  • [13:40] SignpostMarv Martin: [5]
  • [13:40] Lillie Yifu: that's assinine gigs
  • [13:40] SignpostMarv Martin: [6]
  • [13:40] Lillie Yifu: protocols tell people how to do things
  • [13:40] Lillie Yifu: that's why they are protocols and not customs
  • [13:41] Zero Linden: Uhm, let's keep this civil....
  • [13:41] Oliver Szondi: Thanks G
  • [13:41] SignpostMarv Martin: as you can see from those links,
  • [13:41] Zha Ewry: In general, the web, tho, does try, really hard, not to tel you how to handle the resouces, behind a name
  • [13:41] SignpostMarv Martin: there are several instances of sims with the same name,
  • [13:41] SignpostMarv Martin: currently online and accessible by the public
  • [13:42] SignpostMarv Martin: it is my opinion that this should not occur
  • [13:42] Dahlia Trimble: is it causing a problem?
  • [13:42] Zha Ewry: (at the same time, when it comes to things like load balancing, its up to you to manage the illusion)
  • [13:42] SignpostMarv Martin: and that it is the result of accidental lack of foresight
  • [13:42] Gulliver Linden: Marv: same name, or same base name with a numberic suffix?
  • [13:42] SignpostMarv Martin: same name
  • [13:42] Zero Linden: Ick - search the in world map with "corsica_reg7" --- it's fugly!
  • [13:42] SignpostMarv Martin: 14 all called corsica_reg7
  • [13:42] Latif Khalifa: looks like agni maintanence issue ;)
  • [13:42] SignpostMarv Martin: 25 called corsica_reg9
  • [13:42] SignpostMarv Martin: 11 called corsica_reg4
  • [13:43] SignpostMarv Martin: from the original problem
  • [13:43] Gigs Taggart: So what? other than some asthete obsession with "cleanness" and vague waving of the phishing spectre, I haven't heard a good case for why this is a problem.
  • [13:43] SignpostMarv Martin: Yoz Linden: Currently, these regions aren't live, which is why the names aren't unique
  • [13:43] Dahlia Trimble: oops double clicked :/
  • [13:44] SignpostMarv Martin: Gigs, the problem is you can't choose which sim you teleport to via a secondlife:// link
  • [13:44] Gigs Taggart: so?
  • [13:44] Latif Khalifa: lol
  • [13:44] Saijanai Kuhn: some people perceive this as an issue...
  • [13:44] SignpostMarv Martin: which is a usability and navigation problem,
  • [13:44] Tess Linden: what if that link gives you a list of region_urls with that name?
  • [13:44] SignpostMarv Martin: and allows for phishing to occur
  • [13:45] Gigs Taggart: The grid owner can just forbid that on their grid if they don't want it to happen.
  • [13:45] Tess Linden: or brought up the map with the search results
  • [13:45] Infinity Linden: Tess... this is part of what X.400 did
  • [13:45] Saijanai Kuhn: Giggs do you have loads of duplicate names on yoru grid?
  • [13:45] Zero Linden: Well - if a region domain operator wishes to build a URL scheme that doesn't manage to uniquely map to each of their regions.... I'm not sure that that won't just
  • self correct
  • [13:45] Infinity Linden: if you gave a directory a vague query, it would return a list
  • [13:45] SignpostMarv Martin: if non-unique region names are to be allowed,
  • [13:45] SignpostMarv Martin: then secondlife:///app/region/0bb04f2e-2d9f-4c99-b141-5ef6a8af2211/about type links need to be supported by the viewer
  • [13:46] Oliver Szondi: i would like to know about the inventory servers from what i saw at the demo grid people were ruthed if somthing like this opensim-secondlife was to happen would
  • there be a planned inventory server transfer?
  • [13:46] Zero Linden: "allows for phishing" -- we need to explore how we think people will use Region names to see how that might happen
  • [13:46] Infinity Linden: it seems to impose a policy of "you must support interactive use"
  • [13:46] Tree Kyomoon: what is the character limit on a region name?
  • [13:46] Saijanai Kuhn: Olier its happening for multiple opensims starting thursday
  • [13:46] SignpostMarv Martin: 63
  • [13:46] Infinity Linden: mumbles something about DNSSec to herself
  • [13:47] Zero Linden: Oliver - we can put that on the agenda for Thursday's office hour - the agenda for today is pretty booked (me thinks)
  • [13:47] Oliver Szondi: cheers sai
  • [13:47] SignpostMarv Martin: oddly, not 64
  • [13:47] Tree Kyomoon: 42 would have been better
  • [13:47] Oliver Szondi: cheers Z :)
  • [13:47] SignpostMarv Martin: no region on Agni has a name longer than 32 characters though :-s
  • [13:47] SignpostMarv Martin: possibly 34, i forget
  • [13:48] Tree Kyomoon: /thanks sign post
  • [13:48] Xugu Madison: Can we bump that up to 127/128 to give us plenty more scope for unique names?
  • [13:48] SignpostMarv Martin: lol
  • [13:48] Zero Linden: For example
  • [13:48] Rex Cronon: why not 255?
  • [13:49] Saijanai Kuhn: short UTF-8 names
  • [13:49] SignpostMarv Martin: my point of view is that with computer networks, you can't have the same name on the same network
  • [13:49] Xugu Madison: 255 sounds good
  • [13:49] Tree Kyomoon: or mabey multi-dimentional names that Id have to cut your tongue out for you to pronounce properly?
  • [13:49] Latif Khalifa: look at the menu bar, that's why ;)
  • [13:49] Infinity Linden: 640k should be enough for everyone
  • [13:49] Winne Woodget: giggles
  • [13:49] Xugu Madison: "Minerva Island @ Archipelago owned by University of St Andrews" - Okay, that's not even 63 is it... but I think plenty of space for uniqueness is good!
  • [13:49] Rex Cronon: the menu bar is a gui limitation
  • [13:49] SignpostMarv Martin: though I could configure my router or my computer to find signpostmarv.name on a local dev box instead of the one on the internets
  • [13:49] Zero Linden: off-hand, I don't know the address (DNS name or URL) for, say, Herman Miller
  • [13:49] Saijanai Kuhn: but that's still less than 100K for max-len UTF-8
  • [13:50] Zero Linden: And indeed, in the world of names, that isn't unique
  • [13:50] SignpostMarv Martin: historically speaking,
  • [13:50] Infinity Linden: which is why google and yahoo exist
  • [13:50] Zero Linden: though unique in the world of furniture makers
  • [13:50] SignpostMarv Martin: aside from this oddity with freshly-rezzed sims,
  • [13:50] SignpostMarv Martin: region names have been unique
  • [13:50] Whump Linden: yes, we should probably assume people will use the search bar as the URL bar
  • [13:50] SignpostMarv Martin: I would have thought if Linden Lab intentionally wanted to support non-unique names,
  • [13:50] Multi Gadget: v2.0.3b by Timeless Prototype, '/44 info'
  • [13:50] Zero Linden: Using a search engine yields a number of URLs, all of who's titles start "Herman Miller"
  • [13:51] Zero Linden: they are uniquely addressable
  • [13:51] SignpostMarv Martin: then all the instances of Help Island and Orientation Island would just be called "Help Island" or "Orientation Island"
  • [13:51] SignpostMarv Martin: addressable != named
  • [13:51] Zero Linden: and in theory some might be phising sites
  • [13:51] Zero Linden: (I do, by the way, think that the issue of supporting (gasp) shards, should be a different discussion)
  • [13:51] Tao Takashi: crashed the hard way...
  • [13:51] Saijanai Kuhn: Cmake again?
  • [13:52] Bartholomew Kleiber: lol
  • [13:52] Tao Takashi: no, just SL ;-)
  • [13:52] Gulliver Linden: Zero -- can we put that on an upcoming agenda?
  • [13:52] Tao Takashi: not sure what happened, SL never crashed before..
  • [13:52] Zero Linden: Yes - just remember to mention it at the start of a meeting! :-)
  • [13:52] Zha Ewry: Shards, clearly is a seperate discussion, since, theyre, you're alisaing the name, in a very different way
  • [13:52] SignpostMarv Martin: so... Zero- do you believe that the non-unique region name support in Second Life is accidental or intentional
  • [13:53] Rex Cronon: it seems that each sim has a unique locaction on the grid(x,y, and possibly), so having duplicate sim names shouldn't be a prblem
  • [13:53] Zero Linden: in SL today? I have no information to form a belief on that question
  • [13:53] Rex Cronon: possibly z*
  • [13:53] Tao Takashi: Rex: as long as you have some meaning of identifying them
  • [13:53] Zero Linden: I suspect many people designed parts of SL with the assumption of them being unique (take the design of SLURLs for example)
  • [13:53] Tao Takashi: and to choose where to teleport
  • [13:54] SignpostMarv Martin: the viewer itself has mixed feelings
  • [13:54] Saijanai Kuhn: as long as the coordinates are available i case of duplicates, this would sove the problem for any inter-grid TP also
  • [13:54] SignpostMarv Martin: the world map window supports them
  • [13:54] SignpostMarv Martin: but teleportation doesn't
  • [13:54] Zero Linden: okay- I'm going to cut this a little short - as we have another item to briefly get to
  • [13:54] Tao Takashi: well, we have duplicate cities in RL..
  • [13:54] Lillie Yifu: So long as typing in tcp/ip numbers for servers is your idea of not a problem.
  • [13:54] Tao Takashi: IPv6
  • [13:55] Lillie Yifu: which is why post offices inflict things like zip codes on us
  • [13:55] SignpostMarv Martin: Tao: you don't generally have the same city in the same county
  • [13:55] Saijanai Kuhn: x/y/z or whate ver
  • [13:55] Rex Cronon: and each city is located at different locations around the globe:)
  • [13:55] Zero Linden: ponders [7] vs. [8] ....
  • [13:55] Lillie Yifu: and x,y,z do *not* define a region stably
  • [13:55] Tao Takashi: sign: right, that's why you'd need some other form of identification here, too
  • [13:55] Oliver Szondi: lol
  • [13:55] Lillie Yifu: becuase regions can be moved arbitrarily on a grid
  • [13:55] Tao Takashi: and x,y,z is also not easy to remember
  • [13:55] Tree Kyomoon: before we close...lindens I want to personally thank you for this incredibly stable release candidate...7 hour straight use and no crashing!
  • [13:55] SignpostMarv Martin: regions are uniquely identified by their UUID
  • [13:55] Lillie Yifu: which you are inflicting on other peopel to leanr and keep track of.
  • [13:55] Saijanai Kuhn: likewise
  • [13:55] Oliver Szondi: its brillernt!
  • [13:55] Tao Takashi: well, UUIDs of course are easy to remember :)
  • [13:56] Oliver Szondi: i love the new client!!!!!!!!!
  • [13:56] Gigs Taggart: Shameless Plug: If you are on the fence about going to /registering for SLCC.. I'd like to point out that we have an entire Open Source track this year, with
  • several panels and presentations related to architecture. slconvention.org. Hotel space is running low, so don't wait too long.
  • [13:56] Zero Linden: ponders [9]
  • [13:56] G2 Proto: lol
  • [13:56] Infinity Linden: without getting into a discussion about "london above" and "london below" I would point ou that in the first life..different cities with the same name cannot
  • occupy the same space
  • [13:56] Oliver Szondi: ty for the best client ever!
  • [13:56] Tao Takashi: I cannot make it this year unfortunately
  • [13:56] Tao Takashi: Gigs: do you also plan on some sprints?
  • [13:56] Tree Kyomoon: I can go virtually
  • [13:56] G2 Proto: [10]
  • [13:56] Tree Kyomoon: physical travel is sooooo last year
  • [13:56] Zero Linden: okay -
  • [13:56] Gigs Taggart: Tao I wasn't planning on it, but maybe hehe
  • [13:56] Zero Linden: anyone have anything to say about.....
  • [13:56] Lillie Yifu: um ril they do
  • [13:57] Zero Linden: 3) Beta!!!!!
  • [13:57] G2 Proto: woot hu7rumph
  • [13:57] Oliver Szondi: WooT
  • [13:57] Tao Takashi: Gigs: it would make sense in case some devs are around and want to get some hacking done I guess
  • [13:57] Infinity Linden: oh.. .there's a beta happening? i hadn't heard.
  • [13:57] SignpostMarv Martin: Zero, clarification: is point 2 "currently undecided" ?
  • [13:57] G2 Proto: lol
  • [13:57] Gigs Taggart: Tao I'm not sure how many actual devs are coming.
  • [13:57] Tao Takashi: there is a dev sandbox hhappening ;-)
  • [13:57] Rex Cronon: when can we tp to it, and back?
  • [13:57] Zero Linden: Yes - I think point 2 will require further thought and study ---yes?
  • [13:57] Tao Takashi: I assume with an agent domain of my own for now I cannot TP into LL regions, right?
  • [13:58] Zero Linden: yes
  • [13:58] Infinity Linden: @Tao... for the time being
  • [13:58] Zero Linden: I believe that is right
  • [13:58] Tao Takashi: ok
  • [13:58] Tao Takashi: well, right now i cannot connect to them so I guess that will stay that way
  • [13:58] Infinity Linden: goes and runs and checks if we turned off external access
  • [13:58] Tao Takashi: but will the client support some cmdline switch to let me define the AD to use?
  • [13:59] Latif Khalifa: but will the TP out for any other region domain, or is there a list of pre-approved ones?
  • [13:59] Latif Khalifa: work for*
  • [13:59] Tao Takashi: Inf: the interop tests are not running for me from here so I guess there is no access
  • [13:59] Tao Takashi: but that's ok, I can test with opensim
  • [14:00] Tao Takashi: I just need a way to specify the agent domain url so I can test it with that client
  • [14:01] Xugu Madison: Going to run along, thanks for hosting Zero, thanks for the discussion everyone else
  • [14:01] Tree Kyomoon: thanks zero!
  • [14:01] Zero Linden: Indeed - thanks for coming everyone
  • [14:01] Tree Kyomoon: posting log...
  • [14:01] Tao Takashi: cya Xugu!
  • [14:01] Rex Cronon: bye everybody
  • [14:01] Gulliver Linden: bye all!
  • [14:01] Tree Kyomoon: yes, tree is posting a log...perhaps I'll leaf after I branch out
  • [14:01] Rex Cronon: have fun
  • [14:02] Saijanai Kuhn: Zero, one last little thing, you might consider a blog entry BEFORE the metanomics discussion...
  • [14:02] Bartholomew Kleiber: bye, all, too
  • [14:02] Latif Khalifa: erm