User Experience Interest Group/Transcripts/2009-11-19

Topic

User Experience Interest Group Discussion for November 19, 2009.

Topic: Future Topic Brainstorming.

Summary

We brainstormed topics for future UXIG discussions:

• Reducing perceived lag (especially avatar movement).
• Meet on OSGrid to inspire discussion about interop/cross-grid issues.
• What OpenSim creators want in a viewer.
• Reducing UI presence to improve immersion.
• "Beyond SL": in what ways would viewers evolve if they weren't tied to SL?
• Integration with external services (Twitter, Flickr, online marketplaces, llPizza, etc.).
• Improving usability of online marketplaces, integrating them in the viewer.
• Reducing the viewer's footprint / improving performance and usability on lower-end hardware.
• Bugs / issues that affect a specific use case or demographic (builders, clothing creators, animators, models, shoppers, etc.).
• Hands-on interface discussion for third-party viewers

Transcript

[15:11]	Jacek Antonelli:	We're brainstorming topics for future meetings today, so if either of you have any ideas, go ahead :)
[15:11]	Geneko Nemeth:	I've got none.
[15:11]	Geneko Nemeth:	Well, almost none.
[15:11]	Hal Klaxon:	I have one.
[15:12]	Geneko Nemeth:	Go ahead.
[15:12]	Geneko Nemeth:	Don't have it yet? I'll go then.
[15:12]	Hal Klaxon:	back to the conversation on the SLUX mailing lsit about laggy movement.
[15:13]	Geneko Nemeth:	Yeah. The client doesn't predict movement, it just takes what server gives it and trys to smooth it.
[15:13]	McCabe Maxsted waves
[15:13]	Hal Klaxon:	I'm sure there's a way to improve it by chaning the way the viewer works, but I'm not sure what.
[15:13]	Jacek Antonelli:	Ahoy McCabe
[15:13]	Hal Klaxon:	/changing/
[15:13]	Geneko Nemeth:	Prediction routines inside the network layer.
[15:13]	Jacek Antonelli:	Hey Morgaine
[15:13]	Morgaine Dinova:	Hiya Jacek :-)
[15:13]	Hal Klaxon:	hello
[15:13]	Morgaine Dinova:	Hi all
[15:14]	Jacek Antonelli:	We're brainstorming topics for future meetings today
[15:14]	Hal Klaxon:	If I hold down the W key for T seconds, I should move S*T meters forward.
[15:14]	Hal Klaxon:	barring obsticals.
[15:15]	Hal Klaxon:	(S is speed)
[15:15]	Geneko Nemeth:	...
[15:15]	Hal Klaxon:	I'm looking for a nice way to state it as a bug.
[15:16]	Geneko Nemeth:	Well, I think it is a feature...
[15:17]	Hal Klaxon:	Does anyone know what's really happening when your walkign speed slws down?
[15:17]	Jacek Antonelli:	Hrm. The viewer could assume that you start moving forward immediately, but it would be hard to sync that up with the server. There would probably be a lot of "rubber banding" (bouncing back to where the sim says you really are)
[15:17]	Geneko Nemeth:	The server sends an object update packet for your avatar with a slower velocity.
[15:17]	Hal Klaxon:	But why is your velocity slower?
[15:18]	Hal Klaxon:	Becasue information got lost about your keystrokes?
[15:18]	Jacek Antonelli:	How do you mean, when you slow down?
[15:18]	Geneko Nemeth:	Because you bumped into something?
[15:18]	Hal Klaxon:	no obsticals. a flat floor.
[15:18]	Geneko Nemeth:	Because an object is execreting a force over you?
[15:18]	Geneko Nemeth:	Uphills?
[15:18]	Garn Conover:	ooga boog
[15:18]	Garn Conover:	a
[15:18]	Hal Klaxon:	lots of avatrs nearby, but not in your way.
[15:18]	Morgaine Dinova:	For the topic brainstorm ... a sort of meta-topic: "Hold a meeting in OSgrid, as a prompt for ideas about interop and about grid cross-over issues."
[15:19]	Geneko Nemeth:	Just give one second of tweening between what we think is the right position and the server's position then. Nobody will notice!
[15:19]	Jacek Antonelli:	Sometimes the time dilation on the sim drops when there're too much physics stuff going on
[15:19]	Geneko Nemeth:	And what OpenSim devs want to see in viewers!
[15:19]	Jacek Antonelli:	In which case all movement slows down on the sim
[15:19]	Geneko Nemeth:	Yeah, in that way the avatar rubber-bands, don't want to see that.
[15:19]	Morgaine Dinova:	Hi Garn
[15:20]	Garn Conover woofs
[15:20]	Hal Klaxon:	when rubberbanding happens, can't the viewer keep moving you towards where it knows you WANT to be?
[15:20]	Jacek Antonelli:	Anyway. We could make that a topic for a future meeting, if you'd like? "Ways to reduce perceived lag", or something like that
[15:20]	Geneko Nemeth:	That would be further away to the truth..
[15:20]	Geneko Nemeth:	Preceived performance is important.
[15:21]	Jacek Antonelli earskritches Garn. Hi there
[15:21]	Hal Klaxon:	exactly!
[15:21]	Geneko Nemeth:	Firefox developers apprantly think it's more important than real performance..
[15:21]	Garn Conover tilts head and thumps foot softly
[15:22]	Jacek Antonelli:	Okay. And Morgaine suggested we have a meeting on OSGrid to inspire discussion about interop issues.
[15:22]	Geneko Nemeth:	Anyway as I was'nt saying for the UXIG we could do stuff the UX lindens would do.
[15:22]	Geneko Nemeth:	...
[15:22]	Geneko Nemeth:	Alright.
[15:22]	Garn Conover:	heya Tech
[15:22]	Jacek Antonelli:	Go ahead, gen
[15:22]	Geneko Nemeth:	Do stuff like discussing mockups for Imprudence.
[15:22]	Techwolf Lupindo:	Hi garn
[15:22]	Hal Klaxon:	Waht is Imprudence?
[15:23]	Techwolf Lupindo:	Third pary viewers
[15:23]	Geneko Nemeth:	New features and featurettes.
[15:23]	Techwolf Lupindo:	party
[15:23]	Geneko Nemeth:	Not just any third party viewer!
[15:23]	Techwolf Lupindo:	I got Imprudence to work in my overaly for gentoo users.
[15:23]	Geneko Nemeth looks at Jacek's general direction.
[15:23]	McCabe Maxsted:	http://imprudenceviewer.org/ hax
[15:23]	Morgaine Dinova refreshes Tech's overlay
[15:23]	Techwolf Lupindo:	But be forwarn, it based on 1.22.11 code, not 1.23.5.
[15:24]	Geneko Nemeth:	Although that would probably change in two months...
[15:24]	Morgaine Dinova:	Tech: that's a *good* think is some cases. It's made Imprudence very stable in Opensim!
[15:24]	Morgaine Dinova:	thing*
[15:24]	Jacek Antonelli:	I'm intentionally trying to keep UXIG from turning into "Imprudence Favoritism Hour", but we could have discussions about potential UI mockups for viewers in general
[15:25]	Geneko Nemeth:	I don't see why it couldn't be "Imprudence Favoritism Hour" as long as the things discussed can be merged into other viewers as well.
[15:26]	Jacek Antonelli:	Maybe once in a while. What are some other topic ideas?
[15:27]	Geneko Nemeth:	Maybe more than once in a while.
[15:27]	Geneko Nemeth:	Twice in a while?
[15:27]	Jacek Antonelli:	Take a look at the past meetings for inspiration, maybe: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User_Experience_Interest_Group/Transcripts
[15:27]	Geneko Nemeth:	Let the meetings have some actual work produced from it... even if just a little.
[15:27]	Geneko Nemeth:	How about an art jam?
[15:28]	Morgaine Dinova:	I think that's a really impressive transcripts list.
[15:28]	Jacek Antonelli:	We could have discussions like the machinima ones, but for other aspects -- building, clothing design, animation, etc. Invite some representatives and talk about bugs and issues that affect them
[15:28]	Geneko Nemeth:	It's been one year! Woot!
[15:28]	Jacek Antonelli:	It has!
[15:28]	Garn Conover:	getting 1.2 silly rss didn't notify me
[15:28]	Morgaine Dinova:	Happy Birthday, UXIG!
[15:29]	Geneko Nemeth:	Wahoo!
[15:29]	Jacek Antonelli:	Garn: We haven't blogged about it yet
[15:30]	Geneko Nemeth:	... and in the other direction maybe Imprudence could favour UXIG. Like, post some notices on the front page or something.
[15:31]	Jacek Antonelli:	What are some other topics?
[15:31]	Jacek Antonelli:	Anything in the UI bugging you lately? Anything you wish it could do?
[15:32]	Hal Klaxon:	true fullscreen.
[15:32]	Hal Klaxon:	get rid of the menu bar and everything.
[15:32]	Geneko Nemeth has one of those bugs swatted... but there are still lots. Not to mention he's also bugged in real life by blood-sucking bugs.
[15:33]	Geneko Nemeth:	More immersive experience... Yeah.
[15:33]	Hal Klaxon:	do you know how to do fullscreen in Gnome?
[15:33]	Geneko Nemeth:	Alt+Enter?
[15:33]	Jacek Antonelli:	wb Garn
[15:33]	Garn Conover:	still popups :(
[15:33]	Jacek Antonelli:	Aw
[15:34]	Hal Klaxon:	It's the /apps/metacity/window_keybindings/toggle_fullscreen keybinding.
[15:34]	Garn Conover:	so whats new on here *sniffs*
[15:34]	Hal Klaxon:	here?
[15:35]	Geneko Nemeth has never smelled more catty before.
[15:35]	Geneko Nemeth:	How about revisiting some of the earlier topics?
[15:35]	Jacek Antonelli:	Any in particular that look interesting to revisit?
[15:36]	Geneko Nemeth:	Not much. Sigh.
[15:36]	Garn Conover:	on 1.2
[15:36]	Geneko Nemeth:	I'm thinking about stuff that have been improved like minimap and radar.
[15:37]	Geneko Nemeth:	Or things that when revisited could give a bit of different perspective...
[15:37]	Jacek Antonelli:	Right
[15:37]	Morgaine Dinova:	"Beyond SL" would be an interesting topic. Ie. cutting the bond with LL on viewers, and evolving viewers independently.
[15:38]	Jacek Antonelli:	Interesting
[15:38]	Garn Conover:	booo the minimap arrow is yellow lol
[15:39]	Garn Conover:	i haz a skelly in this guy now lol
[15:39]	Geneko Nemeth:	Baww... I'm hungry.
[15:39]	Geneko Nemeth:	Maybe llGetPizza();?
[15:39]	Jacek Antonelli:	hehe
[15:39]	Geneko Nemeth:	http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/LlPizza
[15:40]	Morgaine Dinova:	McCabe's fallen asleep. I'm about to as well
[15:40]	Geneko Nemeth:	Hmm... so about llPizza()... intergration with outside the metaverse could be a topic?
[15:40]	Garn Conover facewashes
[15:40]	Jacek Antonelli:	hehe
[15:40]	Geneko Nemeth:	What are you doing Garn Mweh Mweh! :O
[15:40]	Morgaine Dinova:	lol Garn, ew
[15:40]	Garn Conover:	tryin to wale him up!
[15:41]	Techwolf Lupindo lol
[15:41]	McCabe Maxsted:	actually gotta run
[15:41]	Morgaine Dinova:	Cya McCabe, tc :-)
[15:41]	Jacek Antonelli:	Take care McCabe
[15:41]	Garn Conover:	cya McCabe
[15:41]	McCabe Maxsted calls llGetRL()
[15:41]	Garn Conover:	lol
[15:41]	Jacek Antonelli:	Okay, integration outside SL... that could be stuff like Twitter and Flickr as well
[15:42]	Geneko Nemeth:	And SLX? (Of course, SLX sux.)
[15:42]	Jacek Antonelli:	Yeah
[15:42]	Garn Conover:	SLuX
[15:42]	Jacek Antonelli:	heh
[15:42]	Garn Conover:	;)
[15:42]	Jacek Antonelli:	UXIG was almost going to be called SLUX
[15:42]	Garn Conover:	>.<
[15:42]	Hal Klaxon:	let you crop and scale screenshots from inside SL.
[15:43]	Morgaine Dinova:	Ew
[15:43]	Geneko Nemeth:	Things like that. And also, like web frontends. Like, who's online...
[15:43]	Jacek Antonelli:	Actually, the mailing list *is* called SL-UX
[15:43]	Geneko Nemeth:	maps... that kind of stuff. Things relating to your avatar when it's not online.
[15:43]	Garn Conover wonders if the arrow on the minimap is a new colour file line
[15:44]	Jacek Antonelli:	Garn: Nah, for some reason LL decided to color that one arrow, out of all of them.
[15:44]	Garn Conover:	well its the one just added, they used to all be yellow
[15:44]	Garn Conover:	or some of em did
[15:44]	Hal Klaxon:	Is there a way to make it always 9:00 inthe morning?
[15:45]	Geneko Nemeth:	It's called the WindLight editor...
[15:45]	Jacek Antonelli:	Hal: In SL? You can use World > Environment Settings > Environment Editor
[15:45]	Jacek Antonelli:	Then slide the time slider
[15:46]	Hal Klaxon:	But doesn't it reset when you log off?
[15:46]	Jacek Antonelli:	Yeah
[15:46]	Jacek Antonelli:	I don't think there's any way to make it stick permanently
[15:46]	Hal Klaxon:	that should be an option.
[15:47]	Geneko Nemeth wants to expose more of Second Life's rendering options into that place, like glow, shadows, WindLight postproc, and such...
[15:47]	Jacek Antonelli:	Any other topic ideas? How about non-UI things? Other aspects of the total user experience?
[15:48]	Geneko Nemeth:	There is user experience outside the UI?
[15:48]	Jacek Antonelli:	Yep
[15:48]	Hal Klaxon:	AO built into the viewer.
[15:48]	Jacek Antonelli:	Built-in AO is a popular idea, yep
[15:48]	Garn Conover reads up
[15:49]	Hal Klaxon:	If it's popular, why hasn't it happened?
[15:49]	Geneko Nemeth:	It has.
[15:49]	Geneko Nemeth:	Emerald.
[15:49]	Hal Klaxon:	Really? I can't get that one workign.
[15:49]	Garn Conover:	because it needs 3rd party before LL does anything these days
[15:49]	Garn Conover:	u guys hear about SL Mentors?
[15:49]	Jacek Antonelli:	It hasn't happened in mainline SL because LL has other priorities. -_-
[15:49]	Geneko Nemeth:	Yeah so what does that have to d-
[15:49]	Geneko Nemeth:	Yeah, bet that's really damaging to the first hour experience.
[15:50]	Jacek Antonelli:	They ought to just send newbies straight to NCI, heh. And start paying NCI's operational costs
[15:51]	Garn Conover:	hehe well they are gonna start RHN again hopefully this time they keep it
[15:51]	Jacek Antonelli:	I hope so
[15:52]	Jacek Antonelli:	How about things on the web site? Account information, transaction history, whatever. Anything there that needs some UX love?
[15:52]	Jacek Antonelli:	Blog, forums, anything
[15:52]	Jacek Antonelli:	Search
[15:52]	Hal Klaxon:	why can't we get transaction history from inside the viewer?
[15:52]	Jacek Antonelli:	Good question
[15:52]	Hal Klaxon:	At least for the current session.
[15:52]	Geneko Nemeth:	Second Life? Not much we can do about that... but maybe about OpenSim grids?
[15:53]	Hal Klaxon:	How does that work on opensim? Do you use any currency?
[15:53]	Jacek Antonelli:	We can talk about things we can't improve ourselves. Build up some recommendations for LL to ignore.
[15:53]	Geneko Nemeth:	No, I'm talking about blogs, forums, searches, online friend lists, that kind of stuffs...
[15:54]	Geneko Nemeth:	Build up some recommendations for OpemSim grids to take.
[15:55]	Jacek Antonelli:	We could even talk about the usability issues with SLX and other marketplaces, and how those could be improved to make the overall experience better
[15:55]	Geneko Nemeth:	Although they will probably cite that inexistant license incompability and ignore us too.
[15:55]	Hal Klaxon:	SLX needs a better wayt ot make a single payment.
[15:55]	Hal Klaxon:	/way to/
[15:55]	Hal Klaxon:	without teleporting soemwhere.
[15:55]	Geneko Nemeth:	You could just Pay Exchange Street...
[15:55]	Hal Klaxon:	can't I pay a fake avatar directly?
[15:55]	Hal Klaxon:	Who?
[15:56]	Geneko Nemeth:	Exchange Street.
[15:56]	Hal Klaxon:	Oh....
[15:56]	Hal Klaxon:	And I can pay him directly?
[15:56]	Geneko Nemeth:	UUID dcdf9a20-6175-45aa-ba0d-118ba0a975ba.
[15:56]	Geneko Nemeth:	Yes, you can pay him directly.
[15:57]	Hal Klaxon:	I never knew.
[15:57]	Geneko Nemeth:	Although maybe it could get more direct than this?
[15:57]	Geneko Nemeth:	Seriously. LL brought SLX and they still behave as if they are indie.
[15:57]	Hal Klaxon:	Are they afraid to integrate the accounts for security reasons?
[15:57]	Geneko Nemeth:	Not that we are going to help them of course.
[15:58]	Hal Klaxon:	It's nto a first-hour usability issue.
[15:58]	Hal Klaxon:	/not/
[15:58]	Geneko Nemeth liked OnRez shop better.
[15:58]	Garn Conover:	i wonder if SLX can deduct from your sl account directly
[15:59]	Geneko Nemeth:	Not yet.
[15:59]	Jacek Antonelli:	Mmkay, I'm gonna add SLX/marketplace usability as a future topic
[15:59]	Jacek Antonelli:	What else?
[15:59]	Geneko Nemeth:	Uh, please don't.
[15:59]	Geneko Nemeth:	We don't want to help SLX.
[15:59]	Geneko Nemeth:	Okay, I don't.
[15:59]	Jacek Antonelli:	Think of it as "what other marketplaces should avoid doing" then
[15:59]	Geneko Nemeth:	I'd rather see some third-party marketplace go up.
[15:59]	Hal Klaxon:	It's reallt LL's business.
[15:59]	Geneko Nemeth:	So it's like talking about CVS?
[16:00]	Geneko Nemeth:	Oh man, anachroistic chat.
[16:00]	Jacek Antonelli:	Other topic ideas?
[16:00]	Geneko Nemeth:	Pizza?
[16:01]	Hal Klaxon:	is the devil.
[16:01]	Jacek Antonelli:	You already said pizza
[16:02]	Hal Klaxon:	I've gort a question.
[16:02]	Jacek Antonelli:	Go ahead
[16:02]	Hal Klaxon:	A bit off topic, but, what kind of hardware are you guys using to get the best user experience?
[16:04]	Jacek Antonelli:	I'm running a Linux box with an AMD quad-core Phenom, 4GB memory, and dual Geforce 8600 graphics cards.
[16:04]	Hal Klaxon:	For instance, my CPU is at 100% right now and nobody is moving at all.
[16:05]	Jacek Antonelli:	Yeah, SL pretty much sucks up as much of your resources as it can
[16:05]	Hal Klaxon:	That seems wrong.
[16:05]	Jacek Antonelli:	No matter how good your hardware is
[16:05]	Hal Klaxon:	wasteful.
[16:06]	Geneko Nemeth is watching http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UspmcTUmPZ4#t=1m09 (Skipping the more irrevelant part)
[16:06]	Hal Klaxon:	or very frugal.
[16:06]	Jacek Antonelli:	Yeah, it is
[16:07]	Jacek Antonelli:	Mmmkay, I think that's all for this week. One last time -- any other topics?
[16:08]	Geneko Nemeth:	Pizza!
[16:08]	Morgaine Dinova:	Sleep :-)
[16:08]	Morgaine Dinova:	Thanks for meeting Jacek
[16:09]	Jacek Antonelli:	Take care, all! Thanks for coming
[16:09]	Jacek Antonelli:	See you next week