AW Groupies/Chat Logs/AWGroupies-2009-03-10

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  • [9:32] Latha Serevi: Note: relaying chat to irc.quickfox.net #mmox
  • [9:32] Teravus Ousley: there we are.
  • [9:32] Morgaine Dinova: Hiya Zha --- ty for tiny-compat cushions ;-)))
  • [9:32] Saijanai Kuhn: usualy its about virtual world interop and SL 2.0 design, Paul
  • [9:32] Meadhbh Oh: are we chatting about mmox?
  • [9:33] Paul Bumi: ah ok
  • [9:33] Zha Ewry: grins
  • [9:33] Zha Ewry: We are talking about MMOX a little anyway
  • [9:33] Aimee Trescothick: the one that had a gas lift stand that could break your jaw if you picked it up wrong
  • [9:33] Meadhbh Oh: i try to remind people.. mmox is a subset of what we usually talk about here
  • [9:33] Teravus Ousley: Hey Enus.. two places at the same time
  • [9:33] Zha Ewry: I put the tiny cushions out low and in front, so you little peeps could see ;-)
  • [9:33] enus is: fancy i guess
  • [9:33] Teravus Ousley: I tend not to sit on cushions that I don't necessarily trust
  • [9:34] Saijanai Kuhn: ah so you're in IRC, enus?
  • [9:34] Zha Ewry: One moment, shall I install an X.509 cert into the cushion?
  • [9:34] enus: yes: SL-Saijanai|Kuhn
  • [9:34] Aimee Trescothick: LM (certified) AO
  • [9:34] Morgaine Dinova: Hiya Enus@irc :-)
  • [9:34] Meadhbh Oh: wait! lemme code up some ASN.1/BER encoder/decoders in LSL first!
  • [9:34] Teravus Ousley: The technology doesn't support X.509 certs :)
  • [9:34] enus waves: to all the shiny peoples (and blue kitties)
  • [9:35] Zha Ewry: Who's doing dynamic revocatoin?
  • [9:35] Zha Ewry: No point in certs with out revocatoin ;-)
  • [9:35] Teravus Ousley: Maybe we should add it as an MMOX deliverable
  • [9:35] Morgaine Dinova: Don't forget the nice husky ;-)
  • [9:35] Meadhbh Oh: *hint*hint*
  • [9:35] Zha Ewry: Actually, the use of X.509 is
  • [9:35] Teravus Ousley: Script Animation Perms ---> X.509
  • [9:35] Zha Ewry: Anyway...
  • [9:35] Object: Touched.:
  • [9:35] [[User:Object: <0.43286,|Object: <0.43286,]]: -0.45271, 0.77954>
  • [9:36] Meadhbh Oh: long term, adding a sane, extensible permissions infrastructure would be cool
  • [9:36] Morgaine Dinova: How's the AD Zha? Lawyers still at it, or light at end of tunnel?
  • [9:36] Zha Ewry: So. It is worth laying out the way the bits overlap
  • [9:36] Zha Ewry: Lawyers pretty much happy
  • [9:36] Morgaine Dinova: Cool!
  • [9:36] Zha Ewry: So.. There is:
  • [9:36] Zha Ewry: What Linden has deployd today
  • [9:36] Zha Ewry: What Linden might deploy down the road
  • [9:36] Meadhbh Oh: whistles to herself
  • [9:36] Zha Ewry: What OpenSim has deployed
  • [9:36] Zha Ewry: What OpenSim might add
  • [9:37] Zha Ewry: what the AWGroupies talk about
  • [9:37] Zha Ewry: what MMOX specs
  • [9:37] Teravus Ousley: wishes the client supported inventory over OGP if OGP provides a CAP for it..
  • [9:37] Morgaine Dinova: You expecting a 1-line answer? ^_^
  • [9:37] Zha Ewry: Other cool stuff we should be thinking about
  • [9:37] Meadhbh Oh: okay.. one vote fro inventory over OGP
  • [9:37] Zha Ewry: All of the above are seperate
  • [9:37] Meadhbh Oh: scribbles a note to herself, other peeps
  • [9:37] Zha Ewry: And.. For added fun, at least slightly in flux
  • [9:38] Zha Ewry: MMOX being IETFish
  • [9:38] Teravus Ousley: notes that OGP is pretty much a /toy/ without client support for defining at least the inventory skelliton over OGP.
  • [9:38] Morgaine Dinova: notes the reference to Fish
  • [9:38] Zha Ewry: fervently agrees with teravus
  • [9:38] Meadhbh Oh: we prefer to use the term "a good start"
  • [9:38] Zha Ewry: chuckles
  • [9:38] Meadhbh Oh: but yeah. it's a long way from being complete
  • [9:38] Zha Ewry: (and Linden is re-donig the caps for inv fetch)
  • [9:38] Zha Ewry: sighs
  • [9:38] Zha Ewry: Subtly different cap name int he current RC
  • [9:38] Zha Ewry: vs. the old one
  • [9:39] Zha Ewry: and nothing deployed on any public grids
  • [9:39] Saijanai Kuhn: Teravus just saw WHump talking about adding inventory tests to pyogp yesterday
  • [9:39] Teravus Ousley: notes that he can hack together ways to get OGP to do the rest of the inventory via simulator.. if it supported defining the inventory skelliton
  • [9:39] Teravus Ousley:
  • [9:39] Zha Ewry: nods
  • [9:39] Zha Ewry: Oh, me too teravus
  • [9:39] Zha Ewry: Anyway...
  • [9:39] Meadhbh Oh: did whump say that in public?
  • [9:39] Meadhbh Oh: mmm... i guess PyOGP _is_ a public project
  • [9:40] Saijanai Kuhn: was a question in the pyogp irc concerning the available tests
  • [9:40] FWord Utorid: detects linden in disguise
  • [9:40] Meadhbh Oh: fwiw. it's not a great shock we try to do unit tests
  • [9:40] Zha Ewry: MMOX being IETFish... is gong to primarily focus on specing stuff that works, with a small amount of stuff that's getting close enough to be candidates for specing in the near term and a possible
  • [9:40] Meadhbh Oh: LOL. sorry. thoguht everyone knew
  • [9:40] Aimee Trescothick: sssssssh
  • [9:40] Zha Ewry: bit of chatting beyond that.
  • [9:40] Saijanai Kuhn: Meadhbh is
  • [9:40] Zha Ewry: OGP is an input to that process
  • [9:40] FWord Utorid: how do you pronounce that
  • [9:40] Zha Ewry: and.. ntierh what meave
  • [9:41] Zha Ewry: (meave)
  • [9:41] Saijanai Kuhn:  ?
  • [9:41] Meadhbh Oh: maeve
  • [9:41] FWord Utorid: no sai her actual name
  • [9:41] Zha Ewry: Neither what Linden is likely to deply (giev what's ben said)
  • [9:41] Meadhbh Oh: though in irish, ther's a barely perceptable "f" sound at theend
  • [9:41] Zha Ewry: ah, so IETFdbdish
  • [9:42] FWord Utorid: that's a pretty name ;) so what's the show about today
  • [9:42] Meadhbh Oh: whn i'm a pirate, sometimes i _do_ say "headhbh ho!"
  • [9:42] Morgaine Dinova: Latif: lol@toy :-)
  • [9:42] Zha Ewry: MMOX
  • [9:42] Zha Ewry: And some of the places its going
  • [9:42] FWord Utorid: lol settext
  • [9:42] Zha Ewry: and a little of how it relates to other bits of the puzzle
  • [9:42] Saijanai Kuhn: /names
  • [9:42] [[User:#mmox: LathaSerevi|#mmox: LathaSerevi]]: enus lkalif
  • [9:42] FWord Utorid: slow rez today
  • [9:42] [[User:#mmox: End|#mmox: End]]: of /NAMES list.
  • [9:43] Teravus Ousley: Zha and Meadhbh are back on the island and the time jumping has finally stopped. Jon Watte fixed the underground wheel and got teleported off the island.
  • [9:43] Meadhbh Oh: yeah. he used a half implemented protocol to do it
  • [9:43] Meadhbh Oh: so he eventually has to come back
  • [9:43] Zha Ewry: sighs
  • [9:43] Zha Ewry: Yeah I've refrained from the full up
  • [9:44] Zha Ewry: "So, wait, you're busy telling us that what we have which *does* do some interop, is not as good as what you don't have which has never been used for interop at all"
  • [9:44] Dahlia Trimble: lol
  • [9:44] Meadhbh Oh: now now... let's just see where he goes with it
  • [9:45] Zha Ewry: Oh, sure
  • [9:45] FWord Utorid: ok so someone said something on the mailing list about how great they are and we're here to talk about it?
  • [9:45] Zha Ewry: But.. it is sort of miffing
  • [9:45] Teravus Ousley: I do sort of agree that server to server object comm is slightly more interoperable then say.. having the client connect to multiple servers using OGP. but.. meh.
  • [9:45] Meadhbh Oh: maybe the whole OLIVE technology chain ecosystem is working on interop
  • [9:45] Meadhbh Oh: i can't imagine they would do it in public
  • [9:45] Meadhbh Oh: but if they come up with something, we _do_ have an obligation to evaluate it
  • [9:46] Zha Ewry: well, and 90% of the issues which make it hard to do an uber client, show up there too
  • [9:46] Zha Ewry: and, yes
  • [9:46] Meadhbh Oh: but yeah... i wish he would stop baiting people
  • [9:46] Saijanai Kuhn: I can see offering translation services from one protocol to the other as being cheaper than what LESS does
  • [9:46] Zha Ewry: I'm thinkgin we're going to basically be saying to everyone
  • [9:46] Zha Ewry: "here is the level playing field"
  • [9:46] Zha Ewry: "You have ideas
  • [9:46] FWord Utorid: the keyboard is the level playing field
  • [9:46] Zha Ewry: With some proof that they are in code, or there is code similar to the ideas which you will be sharing
  • [9:46] Meadhbh Oh: well... Jon is a defense contractor... he may not be used to a level playing field
  • [9:46] FWord Utorid: with it, you can destroy frogs
  • [9:47] Zha Ewry: And. we will happily bring it into the discussion
  • [9:47] Zha Ewry: and if it gains some real tractoin
  • [9:47] Zha Ewry: Fit it into the story
  • [9:47] Meadhbh Oh: LESS? if it gains traction, then more power to them.
  • [9:47] Zha Ewry: Right
  • [9:48] Teravus Ousley:  :).. also Ryan has asked me to not respond to dyerbrookme@juno.com, so I'll respect my agreement.
  • [9:48] Zha Ewry: Or anything that's in our remit, which gets to that point, and fits into the general space
  • [9:48] Meadhbh Oh: Catherine?
  • [9:48] Teravus Ousley: right.
  • [9:48] Morgaine Dinova: The work between Crista and Charles and co was the most positive thing I've heard recently. Lots of kudos to them.
  • [9:49] Latha Serevi: Sometime very soon I'd like to see some non-LL MMOXers comment in detail on the OGP Base and OGP Auth internet-drafts. We're gonna need to digest them before the meeting, and see if they fit our vision of MMOX.
  • [9:49] Meadhbh Oh: ugh. i was hoping we could have kept catherine in the fold. she _did_ make a couple very cogent points. but the whold idea of having a static message PDU per interaction is anethema to us
  • [9:49] Morgaine Dinova: Is Crista in-world in SL too, or just in Opensim?
  • [9:49] Zha Ewry: She is
  • [9:49] Zha Ewry: Diva Canto
  • [9:50] Morgaine Dinova: Aha, heard Diva mentioned, good
  • [9:50] Zha Ewry: I've chatted with her a bit recently
  • [9:50] Meadhbh Oh: right. jhurliman has been commenting on LLSD
  • [9:50] Saijanai Kuhn: I can see a PDU (?) for new message types but why for existing ones?
  • [9:50] Latha Serevi: What's the Crista and Charles work you mentioned, Morgaine? I don't see her name on MMOX.
  • [9:50] Morgaine Dinova: Charles reported on it Latif
  • [9:51] Dahlia Trimble: she has not been contributing to MMOX, she's mainly working on opensim
  • [9:51] Meadhbh Oh: fwiw... we're allergic to static PDUs 'cause when you change them, they lead do difficult versioning problems
  • [9:51] Zha Ewry: Diva is 99.9% interesting in contributing to the world in lines of code
  • [9:51] Meadhbh Oh: and we prefer to keep as much of the grid up as possible
  • [9:51] Morgaine Dinova: [1]
  • [9:51] Morgaine Dinova: That's Charles' report
  • [9:51] Teravus Ousley: Ghosty MrTopf
  • [9:52] Tao Takashi: Hi
  • [9:52] Morgaine Dinova: Hi Tao
  • [9:52] Tao Takashi: Well, I look sorta dark to myself instead of yellow, guess something is broken or it simply happens it you don't login for weeks ;-)
  • [9:52] Meadhbh Oh: brb
  • [9:53] Aleric Inglewood: black here too
  • [9:53] Tao Takashi: then I want my money back! ;-)
  • [9:53] Tao Takashi: I am yellow in appearance mode
  • [9:53] Saijanai Kuhn: black with white color to me
  • [9:53] Aimee Trescothick: running on a second monitor?
  • [9:53] Tao Takashi: yes, that might it be?
  • [9:54] Aimee Trescothick: yeah, that's it
  • [9:54] Aimee Trescothick: won't bake properly if not on the primary
  • [9:54] Zha Ewry: OpenGL, SL, and tinw head support is.. interesting at best
  • [9:54] Zha Ewry: *twin
  • [9:54] Saijanai Kuhn: interesting. Wonder if it does that with Mac OS X dual monitor also
  • [9:54] Tao Takashi: this is on mac os
  • [9:54] Saijanai Kuhn: guess so ;-)
  • [9:54] Tao Takashi: anyway
  • [9:55] Zha Ewry: About 10% of OpenGL stuff seems to get wonky when its supporting two heads or more (details)
  • [9:55] Aimee Trescothick: yeah, I'm on Mac too
  • [9:55] Morgaine Dinova: There's a confusion here. We talk about changes to LLSD for MMOX, whereas the comment "we prefer to keep as much of the grid up as possible" refers to the LLSD in SL. MMOX's work on LLSD is not changing SL's LLSD --- this really shows up a current problem, conflating the two under same name.
  • [9:55] Zha Ewry: Of topic, tho, interesting
  • [9:55] Tao Takashi: I hope to have some demonstration up soon for connecting my MySpace profile with OpenSim
  • [9:55] Aleric Inglewood: I use twinhead, just use a window without decorations for make "full screen" on one of the monitors. There is no full screen dual support that makes sense in SL
  • [9:55] Paul Bumi: Aimee you turned black to me
  • [9:56] Aimee Trescothick: yeah, moved it onto the other monitor :) ... lets get back on topic :)
  • [9:56] Zha Ewry: The royal we is tricky here
  • [9:56] Morgaine Dinova: Infinity: if "keeping SL running" is a reaqson for disallowing change to LLSD in MMOX, then you need to split off the MMOX/LLSD under another name.
  • [9:57] Morgaine Dinova: Otherwise we're going to be seeing a continuous string of "No"'s from LL. MMOX doesn't seek to change SL.
  • [9:57] Zha Ewry: At the moment, absent any rough consensus, noboyd really gets to use the royal we unless they have a diagnosis of tapeworms or Multipe personality disorder
  • [9:57] Zha Ewry: And, Linden, as *one* interested party in the process, is welcome to advocate for that position
  • [9:58] Tao Takashi: if MMOX is just about getting OGP standardized (guess 90% of it first needs to get written) then I am not sure there is much sense in taking it to that group
  • [9:58] Meadhbh Oh: morgaine... you're free to make LLSD/Morgaine with whatever features you like
  • [9:58] Morgaine Dinova: I'm talming about MMOX/LLSD Infinity
  • [9:58] Zha Ewry: In fact, they seem to be *one* tick less stubborn, but.. I agree it is a erfrain that's sometimes off repeated
  • [9:58] Zha Ewry: At the moment there is not MMOX/LLSD
  • [9:58] Morgaine Dinova: Please don't try doing a Prok-style personal attack
  • [9:59] Zha Ewry: There are some proposed specs
  • [9:59] Zha Ewry: There are some discussions
  • [9:59] Zha Ewry: and we're mostly focused on what the charter shoudl look like
  • [9:59] Morgaine Dinova: Agreed
  • [9:59] Meadhbh Oh: but at the end of the day, if you decide to create a standard for OGP that REQUIRES the use static PDUs... then it's unlikely we'll be able to implement it
  • [9:59] Meadhbh Oh: and it's not a personal attack
  • [9:59] Tao Takashi: I think there are many layers of possible interop anyway
  • [9:59] Irah Anatine: Hello, i'm so sorry, i'm late
  • [9:59] Meadhbh Oh: i'm just saying... if you want to make an alternative protocol proposal, please do
  • [9:59] Zha Ewry: And, I might add, that I'd be willing to support it, either in my personal, or corporate capacity
  • [10:00] Zha Ewry: The ability to slide in a map of typed content at well understood slots in the protocol
  • [10:00] Morgaine Dinova: Referring to MMOX/Morgaine is a personal attack. You know full well that's I'm referring to the majority decision about LLSD in MMOX, not my own preferences.
  • [10:00] Zha Ewry: is actually one of the nicest things about it
  • [10:00] Meadhbh Oh: i think we were hoping we could try to get what we've worked on so far standardized with the IETF
  • [10:01] Morgaine Dinova: My own ideas are just input, like everybody's else's. But the group's majority view is not "just input" --- that's what the final shape of the protocol will be.
  • [10:01] Meadhbh Oh: and leave the development of the next, great protocol for another group
  • [10:01] Zha Ewry: Well, somewhat not true, Morgaine
  • [10:01] Zha Ewry: Its not the group's majority view
  • [10:01] Meadhbh Oh: morgaine... i think the IETF is about consensus and WORKING CODE
  • [10:01] Zha Ewry: its the intersection of rough consensus and actual code
  • [10:01] Morgaine Dinova: Close enough Zha.
  • [10:02] Meadhbh Oh: what code have you contributed?
  • [10:02] Teravus Ousley: I think there's a little room for new stuff.. but it's /mostly/ actual code.
  • [10:02] Zha Ewry: Well, absent any working code beyond what Linden, OpenSim, and John Hurrliman has done in the vicinity of LLSD
  • [10:02] Aleric Inglewood: clients is flooding his debug screen/monitor with "2009-03-10T17:03:30Z WARNING: decodeImpl: ERROR -> decodeImpl: failed to decode image!" ... *ignores it*
  • [10:02] Meadhbh Oh: yes.. there is room for new stuff
  • [10:02] Morgaine Dinova: Infinity: 90% of the group will not be contributing code, but only technical input. Please don't try to reject 90% of the group's efforts.
  • [10:02] Zha Ewry: its mostly.. defined by those things
  • [10:02] Meadhbh Oh: for instance... if someone REALLY wants static PDUs. we could do that
  • [10:03] Zha Ewry: The IETF process, Morgaine, explicitly ends in the runnning code
  • [10:03] Meadhbh Oh: but we're not going to change our existing system to support it
  • [10:03] Zha Ewry: The bakeoffs are done against running code
  • [10:03] Morgaine Dinova: Zha: only foir bakeoff
  • [10:03] Zha Ewry: and if it doesn't show up in the running code
  • [10:03] Zha Ewry: The spec gets revied to take it out
  • [10:03] Zha Ewry: BEFORE it advances
  • [10:03] Zha Ewry: This is non trivial
  • [10:04] Latha Serevi: Please do NOT squash discussion by saying "submit a draft or shut up."
  • [10:04] Aleric Inglewood: 300 pages at least
  • [10:04] Zha Ewry: Discussion, no
  • [10:04] Morgaine Dinova: Indeed, but lots of people contribute to the design, and only a few end up coding the result of the group's ideas. So it's not that only those people who write their own ideas into code prevail.
  • [10:04] Meadhbh Oh: well.. please do not squash discussion by saying "umm... i'm not going to participate in the process."
  • [10:04] Zha Ewry: But.. equally, there is going to be a perponderance of weigh in the coded stuff
  • [10:05] Latha Serevi: Meadhbh,are you saying that the only way to participate is to produce a draft based on working code?
  • [10:05] Teravus Ousley: heh, nobody said 300 pages at least .. just that it defines what you are proposing
  • [10:05] Zha Ewry: This is actually by intent part of the IETF process
  • [10:05] Zha Ewry: No
  • [10:05] Morgaine Dinova: Infinity's got the wrong idea about drafts altogether, thinks that the IETF process is some kind of "challange of the drafts". It's not.
  • [10:05] Zha Ewry: Not that you can't participate
  • [10:05] Meadhbh Oh: @Latha.. it's not the only way to particpate. but if we don't end up with working code...
  • [10:05] Zha Ewry: But.. that.. the end game is drafts coupled to multiepl example of working code
  • [10:05] Dahlia Trimble: goes in and changes the code while nobody is looking....
  • [10:05] Morgaine Dinova: Drafts go through versions.
  • [10:05] Tao Takashi: I would prefer first to think about a problem, see where interop is possible (as said there are many possible layers starting with authentication) and then see where we can come up as a group (not only OGP folks) with an interop proposal and then everybody probably has to change some code
  • [10:05] Meadhbh Oh: .. it's rather a fools errand
  • [10:06] Zha Ewry: When someone says "Hey, X would be a cool feature"
  • [10:06] Zha Ewry: the basic answer, 90% of the time is going to be
  • [10:06] Zha Ewry: "Might be, lets see how it looks in the code"
  • [10:06] Aleric Inglewood: Writing code is easy ... it's not interesting. What is interesting is the design, and a formal description of the API and protocols.
  • [10:06] Zha Ewry: Which is not what the IETF does
  • [10:07] FWord Utorid: being a lawyer is easy, you just have to argue.
  • [10:07] Meadhbh Oh: @Tao. do you want to do this in the IETF?
  • [10:07] Goldie Dastardly: Yes, but ideas are nice, but often turn out to need refinement when you try to implement them
  • [10:07] FWord Utorid: being a doctor is easy, you just have to use tape.
  • [10:07] Tao Takashi: well, writing code is maybe easy but it helps to refine the design and discover the problems
  • [10:07] Dahlia Trimble: easy if you make it through law school fword
  • [10:07] Zha Ewry: And, in terms of interop, the bar, is very clear.
  • [10:07] FWord Utorid: writing a novel is easy, you just have to type and stuff
  • [10:07] Meadhbh Oh: (i'm gonna sound like a scratched CD... the IETF process requires documents and drafts)
  • [10:07] Zha Ewry: "Code, from two sources or more"
  • [10:07] Morgaine Dinova: We have draft -00's. Input from the IETF Contributions that reach consensus status are supposed to be merged into successive drafts, -01,.and so on. It's not competition between drafts,. it's evolution of drafts into new versions. LOTS of WGs have evolving drafts.
  • [10:07] Meadhbh Oh: +1 tao
  • [10:07] FWord Utorid: wtf 'writing the code is easy' = oversimplifying the tasks
  • [10:07] Tao Takashi: that why I am implementing now what I have written down in that draft I wrote
  • [10:08] Aleric Inglewood: Heh - if you run into problems while coding, then the design was bad.
  • [10:08] Zha Ewry: of course, morgaine, but..
  • [10:08] Zha Ewry: The bulk of the evolution is in the form of "When coded, this broke"
  • [10:08] Tao Takashi: and the opensim-myspace bridge might be one example coming out of that
  • [10:08] Goldie Dastardly: ponders snmpv2
  • [10:08] Dahlia Trimble: writing LLSD serialization is pretty easy, but not much fun :(
  • [10:08] Latha Serevi: Zha, I only half agree. Before saying "let's see how it looks in code", it might be reasonable to bgo back and forth a cuople of times to the effect of "I think that's not general enough" or "isn't that a subset of Y?"
  • [10:08] Zha Ewry: Not "I redesigned the spec, and please code it for me"
  • [10:08] Zha Ewry: Oh, of course, Latha
  • [10:08] Zha Ewry: The process is a collaboration
  • [10:08] Zha Ewry: So, when someone says 'Hey, X might be cool"
  • [10:09] Tao Takashi: well, the first code maybe does not need to be ready for general deployment, more like prototypes
  • [10:09] Zha Ewry: Discussion is a very good thing
  • [10:09] Morgaine Dinova: Thought >> code. First you get the design right, then you check it in code.
  • [10:09] Meadhbh Oh: LOL
  • [10:09] Zha Ewry: That's programming, not standardization
  • [10:09] Zha Ewry: And. yes, the need to sanity check the design is always there
  • [10:09] Tao Takashi: my experiments stop though when changes to the Linden Viewer are needed ;-)
  • [10:09] Meadhbh Oh: personally.. i would like to avoid waterfall
  • [10:10] Zha Ewry: whistles and looks for 8 other women to have a baby in April
  • [10:10] Meadhbh Oh: it produces uncodable things (like X.680/X.690)
  • [10:10] FWord Utorid: zha, you want to have 8 women's babies?
  • [10:10] FWord Utorid: wth
  • [10:10] Meadhbh Oh: (for which i apologize)
  • [10:10] FWord Utorid: it's all your fault
  • [10:10] Zha Ewry: No, pointing out that some tasks don't parallelize
  • [10:10] Zha Ewry: But, yes
  • [10:10] Morgaine Dinova: The only way you can avoid waterful is by being perfect on day 1. And history suggests that doesn't happen.
  • [10:11] Zha Ewry: Waterfalling is bad
  • [10:11] Morgaine Dinova: Perfection is non-existent
  • [10:11] Meadhbh Oh: waterfalling is bad
  • [10:11] Latha Serevi: I didn't understand the reference to waterfall as it applies to MMOX approaches.
  • [10:11] Zha Ewry: Iteratino, with incremental change, and tests agains code is pretty much my thinking
  • [10:11] Tao Takashi: btw, I am not necessarily speaking of waterfall.. but IMHO it makes sense to split the problem space into manageable chunks and then have iterations on those
  • [10:11] Aleric Inglewood: Where can I find the "specs" or "drafts" of whatever we are discussing, please?
  • [10:11] Meadhbh Oh: um... morgaine... your suggestion that "we get it right in design first" is the definition of waterfall
  • [10:11] Morgaine Dinova: Latha: they're referring to iterated design/development.
  • [10:11] Zha Ewry: We have a very ncie testbed, in terms of OpenSim
  • [10:11] Zha Ewry: We have a somewhat less flexible existence proof in terms of SL
  • [10:12] Tao Takashi: I wish that viewer would be easier to change (for me)
  • [10:12] Meadhbh Oh: and we're hoping to add more tests to PyOGP to make running tests easier
  • [10:12] Zha Ewry: I'm going to be realyl reluctant to see stuff added to the spec set which isn't coded in one of:
  • [10:12] Tao Takashi: like experimenting with openid/oauth for me stops right now with that viewer
  • [10:12] Meadhbh Oh: or to cover a larger set of possibilities
  • [10:12] Zha Ewry: SL, OpenSim, PYGop, or a similar effort
  • [10:12] Meadhbh Oh: @Tao... did you participate in the OpenID work in '07?
  • [10:13] Tao Takashi: no, I started to look at all this stuff starting with 08
  • [10:13] Meadhbh Oh: okay. fwiw. there was a project in '07 to integrate nOpenID with SL
  • [10:13] Meadhbh Oh: and it died for lack of interest
  • [10:13] Meadhbh Oh: maybe it's time to ressurect it
  • [10:13] Meadhbh Oh: resurrect?
  • [10:13] Meadhbh Oh: sp>?
  • [10:13] FWord Utorid: resurrection
  • [10:13] Tao Takashi: too bad but maybe it was too early ;-)
  • [10:13] Teravus Ousley: [sic]
  • [10:14] FWord Utorid: emphasis on... urrection
  • [10:14] Zha Ewry: OpenId and OAuth have both progressed a bit in the past 18 months
  • [10:14] Meadhbh Oh: yeah. there are several "issues" we had with OpenID
  • [10:14] Tao Takashi: it would be interesting to see how such a redirect can take place in the veiwer.. it has a browser so I guess it shouldn't be that problematic
  • [10:15] Tao Takashi: well, OAuth is not 18 months old ;-)
  • [10:15] Zha Ewry: chuckles
  • [10:15] Zha Ewry: I said both
  • [10:15] Tao Takashi: so it's interesting that it got so much traction
  • [10:15] Tao Takashi: one thing I am thinking about these days is also how to do mass authorizations via OAuth
  • [10:16] Tao Takashi: so that you don't have to be redirected to each service
  • [10:16] Zha Ewry: That's especialy entertaning in clouds, and in settings where you have no clue abnout whether you want to delegate
  • [10:16] Tao Takashi: which is of course a usability issue if you want to give some new service access to your profile service, your social graph, your inventory, your photos, your presence service and so on
  • [10:16] Zha Ewry: "Would you like to let the "internalObscureGridComponent54B have access to your credentials"
  • [10:17] Tao Takashi: well, for a new service you at least need to give consent to one entity which does the rest for you
  • [10:17] Zha Ewry: The granularity of web services a spart of a trusted cloud is a messy bit at best
  • [10:17] Aleric Inglewood: I'll come back another time...
  • [10:17] Tao Takashi: and you should be able to manage what services and parts of it are accessible automatically
  • [10:17] FWord Utorid: this is all your fault
  • [10:18] Tao Takashi: Zha: right
  • [10:18] Zha Ewry: There's been some discussion of thast Tao, the late '08 drafts of oAuth sort of imply
  • [10:18] Zha Ewry: per service (at the named host level) which gets pretty ICK
  • [10:18] Tao Takashi: well, I didn't find an extension which would handle that
  • [10:18] Tao Takashi: but I will look at what Eran has rewritten these days
  • [10:19] Zha Ewry: I'd think the right granularity is "per collective trusted set of services" but. that's very much a hot discussion topic at the moment.
  • [10:19] Zha Ewry: And.. its farking hard to define right in the web
  • [10:19] Tao Takashi: you can still let the SP decide what options they give you
  • [10:19] Zha Ewry: You don't want to tie it to FQDNs
  • [10:19] Zha Ewry: but all other choices get incredibly messy
  • [10:19] Zha Ewry: sighs as we plunge down a random rabbit hole at mach 7
  • [10:19] Tao Takashi: right now it's tried to the OAuth Realm IIRC
  • [10:20] Tao Takashi: so it's a subtree of a site
  • [10:20] Zha Ewry: It is, and most realms are defined in terms of domain naming
  • [10:20] Tao Takashi: sure but it's up to the SP.. I just wonder if all oauth library also handle that correctly
  • [10:21] Zha Ewry: I wanted to touch base on a couple of random logistcial issues for the 24th btw
  • [10:21] Meadhbh Oh: ultimately... getting to use OpenID and/or OAuth with SL or OGP would be a win
  • [10:21] Morgaine Dinova: Anyone know what John had in mind in the first line of this: [2]
  • [10:21] Morgaine Dinova: Seemed to have a specific design in mind.
  • [10:21] Meadhbh Oh: but we may have to ask them to support a fwe of our use cases
  • [10:21] Zha Ewry: He's confused, I think
  • [10:21] Zha Ewry: Merging authentication of user
  • [10:21] Zha Ewry: vs authentication of component
  • [10:22] Tao Takashi: Well, I talked with him about this. He wants to use OpenID Token Exchange
  • [10:22] Zha Ewry: You saddly, need both
  • [10:22] Zha Ewry: Right, which is all about user
  • [10:22] Zha Ewry: It doesn't tell you a thing about services
  • [10:22] Infinity Linden: my guess is he's allergic to us specifying specific auhentication technologies
  • [10:22] Zha Ewry: Which, is fine, in general terms
  • [10:22] Tao Takashi: well, IMHO it's sorta like OAuth just that nobody to my knowledge has is running ;-)
  • [10:22] FWord Utorid: and wearing pants
  • [10:22] Infinity Linden: so we could plug in HMAC, SRP, etc. later
  • [10:22] Zha Ewry: Sure
  • [10:22] Infinity Linden: but focus on issues of federated identity
  • [10:23] Zha Ewry: "here are the mime types which tell us which token you're giveing us"
  • [10:23] Infinity Linden: which is definitely an idea with merit
  • [10:23] Tao Takashi: even with openid libs we are not really tied to specific authentication methods, as YADIS is used
  • [10:23] Infinity Linden: right. but the problem is we have to avoid the MOSS mess
  • [10:23] Tao Takashi: and YADIS tells you what auth methods are available for that URL
  • [10:23] Tao Takashi: what's the MOSS mess?
  • [10:23] Zha Ewry: The challange is the tradeoff
  • [10:23] Zha Ewry: between
  • [10:23] Zha Ewry: "Anything can go here"
  • [10:23] Zha Ewry: and "What are people actually putting there"
  • [10:23] Zha Ewry: Which take syou to profiles
  • [10:24] Zha Ewry: and whether you can happily create
  • [10:24] Morgaine Dinova: I guess that area is going to be devolved into a separate design team in the WG (assuming we get one). Sounds like a discrete line of work.
  • [10:24] Infinity Linden: it's not a problem if you have closely linked viewers and servers
  • [10:24] Infinity Linden: but
  • [10:24] Zha Ewry: complete conforming stacks which don't interop at all
  • [10:24] Zha Ewry: because they don't share any commmon profile elements
  • [10:24] Tao Takashi: well, what I proposed in that architecture draft is some sort of service discovery which allows for everything but the standards on top should specify which services MUST be implemented and which ones MAY
  • [10:24] Infinity Linden: it would be nice if there was a small set of auth technolgoies
  • [10:24] Infinity Linden: that everyone supported
  • [10:24] Zha Ewry: pointedly tries to ignore vague dark memories of various ORB access choices which would not interact
  • [10:24] Infinity Linden: with an out for the peeps who want to have VW specific viewers
  • [10:24] Teravus Ousley: haha, clear text HTTP authentication
  • [10:25] Tao Takashi: and if you look at the web there are not too many auth technologies used
  • [10:25] Zha Ewry: I'm inclined to think that if we do a model where you *can* plug them in
  • [10:25] Infinity Linden: yup. i would love to avoid basic or even digest auth
  • [10:25] Zha Ewry: and.. then bakeoff only the mimetypes which actualyl get done to spec
  • [10:25] Infinity Linden: well... if you add SSL/TLS to the mix.. you get a lot more options
  • [10:25] Zha Ewry: and allow people to do informationals for the others
  • [10:25] Tao Takashi: actually in that service discovery it's not mimetypes but URIs
  • [10:26] Zha Ewry: Well, for mimetype
  • [10:26] Zha Ewry: read
  • [10:26] Zha Ewry: "Well understood key to understand what follows"
  • [10:26] Infinity Linden: oh! this is getting uncomfortably close to teh WS* stack
  • [10:26] Tao Takashi: ok :)
  • [10:26] Teravus Ousley: are we going to adopt the regular MIME types as well?
  • [10:26] Zha Ewry: ie if the LLSD map say "Authentication type=xxxxxx"
  • [10:26] Zha Ewry: what you slap into the XXXXXX slot
  • [10:26] Zha Ewry: and..
  • [10:26] Zha Ewry: if you say WS again, Infinity
  • [10:26] Infinity Linden: but okay... let's just say "a unique identifier" per auth technique
  • [10:27] Zha Ewry: I will remind you I will actualyl be able to slap you in person in under 14 days.
  • [10:27] Infinity Linden: you can say CORBA to me if i say WS* again
  • [10:27] Tao Takashi: it's a unique identifier per service, auth services being some of them
  • [10:27] Zha Ewry: Its is a very dry and ainful deseret that has OASISes in it
  • [10:27] Tao Takashi: and you would have a list of service endpoints for a user and for e.g. a simulator
  • [10:27] FWord Utorid: gotta jet
  • [10:28] Infinity Linden: okay.. hmm... adding mime types or canonical URIs to OGP/Auth? hmm
  • [10:28] Tao Takashi: I am looking to see what Eran comes up with regarding his XRD spec
  • [10:28] Zha Ewry: That would be the obvios path
  • [10:28] Infinity Linden: it's not outside the realm of possibility. it's an easy change
  • [10:28] Zha Ewry: It is
  • [10:28] Zha Ewry: It does open up the pandora box
  • [10:28] Tao Takashi: I think supporting a service discover document is actually not really a big change..
  • [10:29] Zha Ewry: Its not a big change in terms of spec, or code
  • [10:29] Tao Takashi: and for a start it could even just contain SL specific services
  • [10:29] Zha Ewry: it opens the door for the whole "profile/what really works with what" mess tho
  • [10:29] Teravus Ousley: Anyway.. one way to argue against LESS, is that it would require the one server you're currently connected to.. to present the entire scope of whatever virtual worlds it's proxying.. and that could be very resource intensive. If the client connects to multiple machines .. each server is responsible for sending it's own content.. it's therefore highly distributed and more like 'the web'
  • [10:29] StarRain: hello,: its Yann Dufaux :)
  • [10:29] Infinity Linden: yeah.. but the problem is with OpenID is that you're authenticating to the transport
  • [10:29] Zha Ewry: (its actually worse than that, Teravus, depending on how you think about regions)
  • [10:29] Infinity Linden: whcih might work
  • [10:29] Latha Serevi: hi Yann
  • [10:29] Infinity Linden: but
  • [10:30] Infinity Linden: gives me the willies
  • [10:30] Zha Ewry: (and.. even worse, when yout hink about 3 or 4 sets of clients and co-simulations)
  • [10:30] Zha Ewry: Authenticating to the transport
  • [10:30] Zha Ewry: is sort of not quite right in an app level protocol
  • [10:30] Zha Ewry: is pretty sure you're crossing the OSI beams
  • [10:30] Teravus Ousley: additionally OpenID is easily spoofable in most implementations.. without a good way for the average user to know..
  • [10:30] Tao Takashi: what does that mean anyway?
  • [10:30] Teravus Ousley: adept users, could tell..
  • [10:31] Teravus Ousley: but.. the average user.. probably not.
  • [10:31] Infinity Linden: hmm... i wonder what the web would have looked like had the java and javascript default security policies allowed you to connect to anyone on the web
  • [10:31] Tao Takashi: isn't the average user always easy to spoof? ;-)
  • [10:31] Dahlia Trimble: or access your hard drive
  • [10:31] Morgaine Dinova: Well Jon's issue with our viewers has to be one of the most pointless arguments every raised. Even if we unanimously decreed that viewers were banned from MMOX, we'd still be ankle-deep in them. There's no going back, so just stop arguing about it. :-)))))
  • [10:31] Zha Ewry: channles fword and replies "A giant barking chicken"
  • [10:32] Zha Ewry: Also, Morgaine, not that every single "I don't know how to represent this to specific client X" issue shows up at the sim-sim boundary
  • [10:32] Zha Ewry: *note
  • [10:32] Zha Ewry: So, if client A, can't show meshes
  • [10:32] Zha Ewry: and sim A, associated with it doesn't think in meshes
  • [10:32] Zha Ewry: you have to deal with the mesh->sim A issue
  • [10:32] Zha Ewry: (and one level removed from the client/content negotiation world)
  • [10:33] Infinity Linden: i'm willing to bet Jon has some IP that makes that translation easy
  • [10:33] Tao Takashi: actually it would still be good to know what sort of tech all the other VWs actually use in terms of 3d objects, login procedure, simulation, animation and so on
  • [10:33] Zha Ewry: The app leve vs connection level quesoin, Tao
  • [10:33] Morgaine Dinova: Yeah, he's merely moving the problem from one piece of code to another, and losing the benefit of distributed computing in clients in the process. It's very very silly. But even if it were perfection itsefl .... it's still not gonna happen!!! /me chuckles
  • [10:33] Zha Ewry: is whether you are authenticating the connection
  • [10:33] Zha Ewry: between the services
  • [10:33] Zha Ewry: or the contexts the services hold (roughly)
  • [10:34] Teravus Ousley: The thing about OpenID.. is.. one website.. sends the user off to authenticate another website.. which then returns them to the original site. A malitious web site could forward the user off to a look-alike openid authenticator.. and get the openid username and password.
  • [10:34] Meadhbh Oh: well.. i dunno.. we're certainly going to put LESS on the agenda
  • [10:34] Meadhbh Oh: for discussion
  • [10:34] Zha Ewry: Oh, absolutely
  • [10:34] Meadhbh Oh: actually... we already did
  • [10:34] Zha Ewry: I like some of the ideas a lot
  • [10:34] Zha Ewry: and.. in fact
  • [10:34] Infinity Linden: reaches over and slaps meadhbh
  • [10:34] Zha Ewry: tho Jon refuses to look at the synthetic position
  • [10:34] Infinity Linden: i told you not to do that!
  • [10:34] Zha Ewry: The stream of items flowing sim-sim
  • [10:34] Zha Ewry: and sim-client
  • [10:35] Zha Ewry: are not exactly disjoint
  • [10:35] Meadhbh Oh: yeah... Jon's certainly focused
  • [10:35] Zha Ewry: mutters somethign about
  • [10:35] Tao Takashi: Teravus: I know about the phishing problems and I also know about procedures of some opensim providers to fight it but it makes it all a bit more problematic for the user
  • [10:35] Zha Ewry: The object with a URI of 978890709870897-0980987890 has rotated 10 degrees looks pretty much the same whether I'm telling a sim or a client
  • [10:35] Dahlia Trimble: bye all :)
  • [10:35] Teravus Ousley: hehe, well.. he probably knows that persistance wins the IETF battle
  • [10:35] Teravus Ousley: take care Dahlia.
  • [10:35] Morgaine Dinova: Heh, synthetic position ... he's not even allowing analysis, let alone synthesis! I think I'm just going to give up on his. I can't talk to someone who basically doesn't want interop to happen.
  • [10:35] Meadhbh Oh: cheers dahlia
  • [10:36] Morgaine Dinova: See ya Dahlia!
  • [10:36] Tao Takashi: but maybe sometime we get Information Cards more popular and we might not have that problem anymore but different ones ;-)
  • [10:36] Infinity Linden: hmm... these pixels are still warm
  • [10:36] Goldie Dastardly: Pixels, fresh from the oven.
  • [10:36] Infinity Linden: right... the problem of phishing can be reduced if you're talking about XSS
  • [10:37] Zha Ewry: There's a bunch of thinking lurking there, I gather, but it's never going to fully go away
  • [10:37] Infinity Linden: but if you're talking about a bad actor as a server, serving you a form that says.. "yeah! i'm REALLY this other server... the one you trust..."
  • [10:37] Zha Ewry: nods
  • [10:37] Tao Takashi: as long as users don't know what they are doing those problems will never go away.. like always checking the URL they are at
  • [10:37] Infinity Linden: i think the industry likes to thing that TLS + liberal application of VeriSign's CPS prevents you from having this problem
  • [10:37] Zha Ewry: Well, when we get fully secured DNS...
  • [10:38] Zha Ewry: chuckles
  • [10:38] Infinity Linden: if you mention DNSSEC again... i will scream
  • [10:38] Zha Ewry: I didn't mention it
  • [10:38] Zha Ewry: I implied it
  • [10:38] Goldie Dastardly: *ponders mentioning it*
  • [10:38] Zha Ewry: smirks
  • [10:38] Infinity Linden: DNSSEC was my last foray into the IETF (over 15 years ago)
  • [10:38] Teravus Ousley: haha
  • [10:38] Goldie Dastardly: well it is getting some implementation
  • [10:38] Infinity Linden: DNSSEC?
  • [10:38] Teravus Ousley: finally
  • [10:38] Infinity Linden: really?
  • [10:38] Tao Takashi: so 15 years from now it will be "if you mention OGP again... i will scream"? ;-)
  • [10:39] Goldie Dastardly: Yep NIST
  • [10:39] Zha Ewry: Oh, totally
  • [10:39] Latha Serevi: Sometime before we adjourn for today, could we talk a litttle about where I could put some useful effort into the MMOX discussion this week and next?
  • [10:39] Infinity Linden: lol
  • [10:39] Infinity Linden: ossm. i;ll have to chat with Bill Barr about it
  • [10:39] Zha Ewry: still cringes at the WSA discussions on the W3C mailing lists in 1998
  • [10:39] Infinity Linden: we talked about doing something with it back when i was at homeland
  • [10:39] Morgaine Dinova: Latha: what's on your mind specifically?
  • [10:39] Teravus Ousley: the Dan Kaminsky thing raised awareness enough to cause verisign to implement some roots that way.
  • [10:39] Latha Serevi: Sometime very soon I'd like to see some non-LL MMOXers comment in detail on the OGP Base and OGP Auth internet-drafts. We're gonna need to digest them before the meeting, and see if they fit our vision of MMOX.
  • [10:39] Goldie Dastardly: and Sec64 (if I remember the company correctly...coffee cup is downstairs and business card is burried on desk.
  • [10:40] Infinity Linden: aha. that makes sense
  • [10:40] Teravus Ousley: I think they're starting with .gov
  • [10:40] Goldie Dastardly: Not sure that verisigh has much plan there yet.
  • [10:40] Infinity Linden: hmm... wonder if SEC64 is staffed with people i know
  • [10:40] Infinity Linden: i got pulled into the binnacle project back in the day
  • [10:40] Goldie Dastardly: There are some very bright people there. I do have the cards and can check later if you want.
  • [10:40] Morgaine Dinova: Latha: that would be dead cool. But we need more outsiders for that to happen
  • [10:41] Morgaine Dinova: I wish Qwaq were present on MMOX
  • [10:41] Morgaine Dinova: And Darkstar
  • [10:41] Zha Ewry: The "our" there needs to be said carefully and to sound like the tao of IETF humbly
  • [10:41] Morgaine Dinova: And *anybody*, ehehe
  • [10:41] Latha Serevi: My understanding is that the appropriate focus for the BOF meeting itself is on charter and target deliverables. However, before the meeting, we're supposed to read in detail all of the internet-drafts to be considered, right? I sort of want help digesting them.
  • [10:41] Infinity Linden: my guess is the qwaq peeps are waiting for the croquet proper peeps to show up
  • [10:41] Teravus Ousley: channels Fw0rd, "I wish Lively was present on MMOX"
  • [10:42] Infinity Linden: and sadly.. mark may not want to as the wire protocol they use is unique to Squeak
  • [10:42] Zha Ewry: They are waiting for the t-object to tell them it's time to step forward in the mailing list
  • [10:42] Morgaine Dinova: That's cruel :P
  • [10:42] Infinity Linden: hmm... i think Latha's got a point
  • [10:43] Infinity Linden: we _should_ be focusing on charterisms
  • [10:43] Infinity Linden: but
  • [10:43] Zha Ewry: I think, that they have to realize that in 2009 the odds of a language specific disirbuted object protocol being the wire protocol on the web is pretty minimal.
  • [10:43] Infinity Linden: the advice we got from our area director is
  • [10:43] Zha Ewry: So, I am hoping
  • [10:43] Zha Ewry: \that they have an idea about how to bridge into the non t-obejct world
  • [10:43] Infinity Linden: "think of your charter in terms of tangible deliverables"
  • [10:43] Meadhbh Oh: krunk. i was trying to keep Meadhbh Oh with the MMOXish stuff and Infinity with the LL stuff
  • [10:43] Morgaine Dinova: The charter *is* a deliverable
  • [10:44] Meadhbh Oh: yes. i didn't say it wasn't
  • [10:44] Zha Ewry: The charter is supposed to include
  • [10:44] Zha Ewry: a set of future deliverables
  • [10:44] Meadhbh Oh: but it's not the only deliverable
  • [10:44] Zha Ewry: I'm leaning to the set being
  • [10:44] Zha Ewry: "This n specs" for which we have code, and broad need, and a document who's purpose is to gather in the ideas which are still congeeling
  • [10:45] Zha Ewry: and make very clear
  • [10:45] Latha Serevi: To me, the main deliverables of the WG are RFC's, and one of the goals of the BOF is to get consensus on a good set of target RFC's to design and bake-off.
  • [10:45] Meadhbh Oh: right
  • [10:45] Zha Ewry: that the process is "Spec refinement"
  • [10:45] Teravus Ousley: Meadhbh is correct.. it's is supposed to include deliverables. It's the contract that the working group has with the IETF and the deliverables in the charter are the reason for the working group being in existence.
  • [10:45] Meadhbh Oh: but
  • [10:45] Meadhbh Oh: also
  • [10:45] Tao Takashi: btw, I don't want to be called Tao of the IETF all the time.. it was hard enough for me to be the Tao of Linden
  • [10:45] Zha Ewry: and "Path to get new specs into the re-charter pipeline"
  • [10:45] Meadhbh Oh: in a sense the draft charter was used to try to attract people
  • [10:45] Meadhbh Oh: and ask "is this close to something you would be interested in"
  • [10:45] Zha Ewry: nods
  • [10:46] Zha Ewry: Exactly Mesadhbh
  • [10:46] Meadhbh Oh: and it's somewhat sad to say...
  • [10:46] Meadhbh Oh: i think we may be headed to multiple WGs
  • [10:46] Latha Serevi: I'm not giving up on the single WG yet
  • [10:46] Meadhbh Oh: one focused on SLish worlds, one focused on OLIVE(tm)ish worlds
  • [10:47] Meadhbh Oh: cause i just don't see jon saying... "sure... go off an do your sily OGP and LLSD stuff and I'll work over here"
  • [10:47] Tao Takashi: I would rather would like to see a WG which tries to solve problems common to web and VWs like authentication, authorization and service discovery
  • [10:47] Zha Ewry: I'm reluctant to believe we have enough critical mass
  • [10:47] Meadhbh Oh: @Tao... well... authentication isn't our mandate per se
  • [10:47] Teravus Ousley: I don't think we have enough critical mass yet either.
  • [10:47] Latha Serevi: I have an inkling, and a hope, of a "middle ground" consensus forming. It would include LESS, and have some things to say about whether the OGP drafts fit into our inclusive and general vision of MMOX.
  • [10:47] Tao Takashi: I agree with the mass thing
  • [10:47] Meadhbh Oh: i was hoping to be able to reuse as much of other peoples work as possible
  • [10:47] Meadhbh Oh: but that might be what you're saying
  • [10:47] Morgaine Dinova: Multiple may simply be pragmatic. Do we *really* want the current discussions with Jon continuing ad infinitum before we can progress with OGP? It doesn't bear thinking about.
  • [10:47] Zha Ewry: and. I'd much rather retain the critical mass even if we lose Jon
  • [10:48] Tao Takashi: sure, authentication is maybe also a solved problem with many solutions ;-)
  • [10:48] Zha Ewry: No, we tell Jon
  • [10:48] Tao Takashi: but the whole thing on how you plug it together to have a decentralized system is maybe not
  • [10:48] Tao Takashi: and there are useful parts around
  • [10:48] Teravus Ousley: well, have you looked at webkinz
  • [10:48] Zha Ewry: "The broad consensus is OGP get progressed, and we are willing to discuss the LESS stuff and progress it when you have code, spec and a way to show us it's relevent"
  • [10:48] Meadhbh Oh: @Tao... yup. auth is a solved problem, but we probably do want to add a few new use cases to be considerd
  • [10:48] Meadhbh Oh: so
  • [10:48] Teravus Ousley: it's a fabulous flash based meeting space.. that's 'room based'
  • [10:49] Meadhbh Oh: rather than saying "MMOX will create new auth techniwues"
  • [10:49] Teravus Ousley: .. it's cartoonish and 2d
  • [10:49] Zha Ewry: +1 Meadhbh
  • [10:49] Tao Takashi: sure, but maybe for those new use cases we can also go to the communities which work on that and discuss them there
  • [10:49] Meadhbh Oh: we say something more like "um... we think there's a mild disconnect between the existing OpenID / SAML / whatever and virtual worlds... here's a recommendation for how you could fix it. could you fix it please?"
  • [10:50] Zha Ewry: nods
  • [10:50] Tao Takashi: not sure if that will work, you also need to be active on those communities I think..
  • [10:50] Zha Ewry: "Here is a RFC documenting our issue, with use cases"
  • [10:50] Zha Ewry: and then
  • [10:50] Zha Ewry: you have to get into the mailing lists
  • [10:50] Zha Ewry: and the people
  • [10:50] Meadhbh Oh: which is why i'm on the OAuth list
  • [10:50] Meadhbh Oh: and going to identity conferences
  • [10:50] Tao Takashi: you at least should do some proposal for solving your problem ;-)
  • [10:50] Zha Ewry: +1 Tao
  • [10:50] Meadhbh Oh: and talking with people about unique problems we have in virtual worlds
  • [10:50] Meadhbh Oh: right
  • [10:51] Tao Takashi: yeah, i wish that this internet identity workshop wouldn be so far away from me
  • [10:51] Meadhbh Oh: i'm thinking that we look at what's out there
  • [10:51] Meadhbh Oh: not reinvent the wheel
  • [10:51] Zha Ewry: You want a "This is our issue" idealy in the form of a use case hey can see easily. "here is a way we might solve it" and "We'd be glad to help"
  • [10:51] Meadhbh Oh: but if we need to add a few spokes to the wheel, yeah.. it's "our" responsibility to do so
  • [10:51] Zha Ewry: Then you need about 2 years to get it done
  • [10:51] Zha Ewry: sighs
  • [10:51] Meadhbh Oh: yeah. this is why i work 14 hour days
  • [10:52] Meadhbh Oh: cause on top of all this other stuff... i'm still doing bug fixes and feature enhancements on our existing simulator
  • [10:52] Meadhbh Oh: ugh
  • [10:52] Tao Takashi: well, you have to wait until it's deployed anyway ;-)
  • [10:52] Zha Ewry: reguses to look at the window with the TRAC page on it
  • [10:53] Tao Takashi: has many trac pages ;-)
  • [10:53] Zha Ewry: OK
  • [10:53] Zha Ewry: So, Latha, to give you a concrete answer?
  • [10:53] Tao Takashi: and a dataportability steering group meeting coming up soon
  • [10:53] Meadhbh Oh: in the opensim community or in the IETF?
  • [10:53] Morgaine Dinova: I think you're still mixing MMOX and SL in your mind. They're separate. SL doesn't need to change for bakeoff. Would be nice if Aditi could mirror MMOX specs, but even that is not necessary. MMOX != SL.
  • [10:54] Zha Ewry: I think flagging spots i the various specs which totaly confuse you, and asking for people to explain them woudl be wicked good
  • [10:54] Meadhbh Oh: is unfamiliar with data portability groups... but would love to hear what people think
  • [10:54] Tao Takashi: of the dataportability project ;-)
  • [10:54] Zha Ewry: Someone needs to implement it
  • [10:54] Tao Takashi: so neither opensim nor ietf
  • [10:54] Zha Ewry: Tow someones
  • [10:54] Zha Ewry: *two someones
  • [10:54] Tao Takashi: [3]
  • [10:54] Meadhbh Oh: YEAH INFINITY! Make VAAK/ADITI MIRROR THE SPECS!
  • [10:54] Infinity Linden: shut up, you!
  • [10:54] Zha Ewry: I don't expect main grid to shadow it
  • [10:55] Zha Ewry: but it would be really nice if *some* bit of deployed LL code did
  • [10:55] Zha Ewry: is perfectly happy to have 4 sims and a tiny asset server
  • [10:55] Infinity Linden: hmm.. how to answer this one?
  • [10:55] Infinity Linden: um
  • [10:55] Infinity Linden: "it's delicate"
  • [10:55] Zha Ewry: "In your dreams you blonde lunatic!"
  • [10:55] Morgaine Dinova: Zha: someone needs to implement it, but that doesn't have to be in SL. SL is a production system, the last thing you want to do is muck around with test code in it.
  • [10:55] Infinity Linden: but.. i'll definitely push internally for it
  • [10:55] Tao Takashi: of course I hope we can prevent caps to go into OGP ;-) at least for 2D stuff
  • [10:56] Meadhbh Oh: and for the record... i personally agree with the request
  • [10:56] Zha Ewry: Not on main grid, Morgaine, or even on beta
  • [10:56] Infinity Linden: but unfortunately am not at liberty to discuss why such a thing has turned into a "hard" request
  • [10:56] Zha Ewry: But.. I'd really think it kind of needs to be on a set of SLish boxes eventualyl if we want to be able to say
  • [10:56] Zha Ewry: "yeah, this stuff actually meets the need of one of the biggest deployers"
  • [10:57] Tao Takashi: ok, I gotta go home before that steering group teleconference
  • [10:57] Tao Takashi: cya soon
  • [10:58] Infinity Linden: ack. left before i could say goodbye
  • [10:58] Goldie Dastardly: Those quick exits are hard to catch.
  • [10:58] Zha Ewry: Very
  • [10:58] Infinity Linden: yeah. i should probably get going as well
  • [10:58] Zha Ewry: I as well
  • [10:58] Infinity Linden: cheers folks!
  • [10:58] Teravus Ousley: namaste
  • [10:58] Goldie Dastardly: And I too
  • [10:58] Morgaine Dinova: Zha: we all agree then! The point of dispute was the line "Can't do that because it could endanger SL", which was a potential block on what MMOX can agree on based on the requirements of a live service. If it's not done in a live service, then the problem goes away --- there's no "Can't do that, it would endanger SL".
  • [10:58] Goldie Dastardly: laters all
  • [10:58] Meadhbh Oh: avoirs!
  • [10:59] Zha Ewry: This was, kind of useful, I think.
  • [10:59] Morgaine Dinova: If the two aren't conflated, all is fine.
  • [10:59] Morgaine Dinova: Yeah, good discussion.
  • [11:00] Morgaine Dinova: Andrew starts now.
  • [11:00] Zha Ewry: OK, off to some semblance of RL and the TRAC page which stubbornly says "Figure out how to add another table to OpenSim"
  • [11:00] Morgaine Dinova: I think we need "Where is our AD?" t-shirts made.
  • [11:00] Goldie Dastardly: Off to...one of these things on the "must get done" list.
  • [11:01] Zha Ewry: chuckles