AW Groupies/Chat Logs/AWGroupies-2010-05-25

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[9:26] Zha Ewry: a) Alice is a symbold of Lenninist Domination of Mankind over nature b) The yellow Toucan. c) Only if the right angle is purple
[9:27] Honour McMillan is lost already.............
[9:27] Latha Serevi: Coming in a few minutes: the weekly meeting of http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/AW_Groupies
[9:27] Zha Ewry takes very strange tests, is must be admitted but those are my answeers
[9:27] Hermit: Failing
[9:27] Zha Ewry: People are welcome to propose questoins for which they make sense.
[9:28] Rex Cronon: hi *
[9:28] Rex Cronon: :)
[9:28] alan Passerine: hi rex
[9:29] Rex Cronon: hi alan
[9:29] Kitto Flora: Hello, which AWG is this?
[9:29] Honour McMillan: /a) What is Prok's main thesis. b) Which tv spokesperson will be the first in line anywhere. c) How do you know your build is borked.
[9:30] Morgaine Dinova: AWG v5.2
[9:30] NaoWut Digfoot: :D
[9:30] Rex Cronon: how many r there?
[9:30] Zha Ewry hans Hounur a small gold star sticker
[9:30] Honour McMillan blushes
[9:30] NaoWut Digfoot: Kitto: Architecture Working Group
[9:30] Hermit: pFokofsky doesn't have a thesis, she has spaghetti with bile sauce that would make these scrambled suggestions look rational and succulent.
[9:31] Latha Serevi: Kitto: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/AW_Groupies
[9:31] Kitto Flora: TY NaoWut
[9:31] Morgaine Dinova is Offline
[9:33] Morgaine Dinova is Online
[9:33] Tiny Blue Kitty Head: All Go
[9:33] Zha Ewry counts feet and (in the cases of four legged critters front legs), divieds by two two and concludes we're getting close to a reasonab,e number of folks
[9:34] Rex Cronon: 14
[9:34] Zha Ewry: Welcome to our weekly mayhem. Give people a minute or two to finish showeing up and making random clev er comments
[9:34] NaoWut Digfoot: :)
[9:34] Dahlia Trimble: hi :)
[9:34] Morgaine Dinova: There will be jitter on the bottom digit, as my ISP is experimenting with increasing availability using the LL model.
[9:35] Zha Ewry: I only have a small topic
[9:35] Gazanfer Jehangir is Offline
[9:35] Zha Ewry: Bit offollow up from Meadhbh's discussion last week on future proofing
[9:36] Mojito Sorbet: Every time I read that IO think it says "future spoofing"
[9:36] Zha Ewry: And I'm also interested in a hmm. Show of limbs (Hands is so antropromprohpic)
[9:37] Zha Ewry: on ideas about where the line between interop and extensabiilyt is
[9:37] Dahlia Trimble: LOL
[9:37] Mojito Sorbet: IN order to interop with a new VW, extensibility may be required
[9:37] Zha Ewry: In particular, given Josh's forumulation is
[9:37] Zha Ewry: Absolutely Mojitoa
[9:38] Zha Ewry: and the related questoin is
[9:38] Zha Ewry: How might one think about Interop and bridged, rather than shared client experiences
[9:38] Zha Ewry: and.. possibly, portals/views
[9:38] Morgaine Dinova: Might be an idea to discuss where the line between interop and lip service is too. Lip service is certainly getting a lot of support.
[9:38] Mojito Sorbet: lso, an extensible protocol allows you to ignore things you do not understand, without having to know how to parse them just to skip over them
[9:38] Latha Serevi: "given Josh's formulation is" ?
[9:39] Zha Ewry: oh, sorry lost a word
[9:39] Zha Ewry: or phrase, actualyl
[9:39] Zha Ewry: Josh' formulatoin is drawing a line which says "Lets pull back a bit on a bunch of the interop bits, and make them extensability bits)
[9:40] Zha Ewry: ie. focus no the minimal spannign set for region display and avatar inetractoin, and let the extenion model handle all the
[9:40] Morgaine Dinova: No he's not
[9:40] Mojito Sorbet: I like that formulation
[9:40] Prometheus Silverweb: OMG
[9:40] Morgaine Dinova: Joshua merely put various things up for discussion, Zha. Unless you know differently.
[9:40] Mojito Sorbet: Well, except that putting all the extensions into HTML may not be sufficiant
[9:40] Zha Ewry: very non shared imersive stuff like managing land groupd
[9:40] Zha Ewry: Well
[9:40] Mojito Sorbet: The base protocol itself has to be extensible
[9:40] Zha Ewry: Granted, Morgaine
[9:41] Latha Serevi: BTW, last week Josh cleared up that (a) when a feature is "out but we know what it's called", we leave a space for a URI and a content-type; and (b) if it's a totally unknown feature, we use Zha's magic content-dicsovery capability to help the participants find each other.
[9:41] Zha Ewry: But.. clearly, you don't put in that much effort without some though of "Hey, this is a way forward"
[9:41] Rex Cronon: big dragon. could u morph 2 something smaller?
[9:41] Mojito Sorbet: Yes, thing that do not have to do with immersion in the simulated state can be pulled form the main protocol
[9:41] Latha Serevi: Big dragon, can you please stay just as you are? ;-)
[9:41] Zha Ewry: Wow. Not only is Neb HUGE
[9:41] Zha Ewry: Neb is also probably not inside the chat circle
[9:41] Nebadon Izumi: i am
[9:41] Nebadon Izumi: hehe
[9:41] Morgaine Dinova: Zha: I think you may be right, but I didn't want to start the conspiracy theorizing myself. So by how much do you think that LL is wishdrawing from interop?
[9:42] Saijanai Kuhn shouts: hout Neb can you hear us?
[9:42] Nebadon Izumi: i can i dont think you need to shout
[9:42] Mojito Sorbet: Whether 3D creation is "in world" or not, would seem to be an implementation choice per-world
[9:42] Zha Ewry: Its Rev and Honour and possibly Kitto I worry about
[9:42] NaoWut Digfoot nods to mojito. pros and cons with both methods
[9:42] Honour McMillan: ?
[9:42] Zha Ewry: Being in Nebadon's chat range
[9:43] Mojito Sorbet: A good example of an optional part of a protocol.
[9:43] Honour McMillan: I can see the chat
[9:43] Zha Ewry: I think Neb's "head" is about 5 meteres outside the circle
[9:43] Zha Ewry: Can you her Nebadon?
[9:43] Honour McMillan: but I'll move to hear Neb's
[9:43] Nebadon Izumi: yes
[9:43] Nebadon Izumi: I think i can hear everyone
[9:43] Latha Serevi: Luckily Neb listens with his navel.
[9:43] NaoWut Digfoot: :)
[9:43] Mojito Sorbet: If you are not inside the circle, you will not hear chat form [people on the other side of it
[9:43] Nebadon Izumi: hehe ya my center should be my actual body
[9:43] Nebadon Izumi: not my head
[9:43] Zha Ewry: Its roughlu where the client puts your tag
[9:44] Saijanai Kuhn: can change it to camera view I think (might be video only of course)
[9:44] Morgaine Dinova: We need to decouple the microphone point just like the camera point is already decoupled.
[9:44] Nebadon Izumi: hehe
[9:44] January Lightfoot: /hihi
[9:45] Zha Ewry: /mem moves to give Neb some space
[9:45] NaoWut Digfoot: microphone point is decoupled, only the viewer forces it to a specific location
[9:45] Saijanai Kuhn: I believe microphone is tied to camera
[9:45] Agent Heliosense is Online
[9:45] Zha Ewry: That is Awesome, Neb
[9:45] RevMagdalen Kyrie runs away from dragon
[9:45] RevMagdalen Kyrie: lol
[9:45] Honour McMillan fangurls dragon
[9:45] Dahlia Trimble: Nebadon, please turn around
[9:45] RevMagdalen Kyrie: really fantastic av ;-)
[9:45] January Lightfoot: /yep
[9:45] Nebadon Izumi: turn around?
[9:45] Saijanai Kuhn wantsto see mesh-based avis
[9:45] Morgaine Dinova: Not awesome when one had one's camera in the space now occupied by Neb. :-)
[9:45] Zha Ewry pauses to take a shot or thee
[9:45] Mojito Sorbet: Pick up of typing noise follows camera, but chat does not
[9:46] Nebadon Izumi: ok well since im just disrupting im gonna bail later guys
[9:46] Zha Ewry: So...
[9:46] Zha Ewry: OK onward
[9:46] Zha Ewry: please not, neb well wanted here
[9:46] Saijanai Kuhn: you need a partial invis option
[9:46] Zha Ewry: So...
[9:46] Zha Ewry: Morgaine?
[9:46] Saijanai Kuhn: just your smile
[9:46] Morgaine Dinova: Yes Zha?
[9:46] Zha Ewry: I don't have a clue about where Linden actually eants to go with Josh's formulation
[9:46] Zha Ewry: That said?
[9:46] Zha Ewry: I think its a very grounding one
[9:47] Mojito Sorbet: Isn't Joshua in charge of that effort?
[9:47] Zha Ewry shrugs a little
[9:47] Latif Khalifa: what formulation?
[9:47] Mojito Sorbet: The offload-most-things-to-the -web
[9:47] Zha Ewry: Roughlu, that much of the non sim specific stuff
[9:48] Morgaine Dinova: Zha: Joshua is a straight-up guy. I don't know if LL is pulling back on interop, but I don't think it matters --- Joshua is in VWRAP as an individual.
[9:48] Zha Ewry: canb e pushed to "web/API" extension
[9:48] Zha Ewry: and kept off the table for pure VWRAP
[9:48] Zha Ewry: /
[9:48] Zha Ewry nods at Morgaine
[9:48] Zha Ewry: Josh seems very standup, and sane
[9:48] Morgaine Dinova: There is no "pure VWRAP". VWRAP is whatever the VWRAP WG agrees it is.
[9:49] Zha Ewry: But.. Unless I see Joe Miller, or on of his peers say 'Yes, that's what Linden" wants to do
[9:49] Zha Ewry: I think Josh is expressing a good, sane technical judgement, not speaking abotu Linden's plans
[9:49] Mojito Sorbet: One VW moved all of shopping to a web interface, to eliominate inworld vendors. Mopstly for lag reduction.
[9:49] Zha Ewry: And.. Of course, Morgaine, that's basic
[9:49] Zha Ewry: That said, I think the formulatoin is very sound for VWRAP in geenral
[9:49] Zha Ewry: with
[9:49] Zha Ewry: the one huge gothca everyone noticed
[9:49] Mojito Sorbet: Yes
[9:49] Zha Ewry: which is that
[9:50] Zha Ewry: while allowing web/html as a way to avoid API is clever
[9:50] Saijanai Kuhn: heck the lag in the market on Luclin was part of its charm. That and pushing obnoxious vendors to the arena and killing them
[9:50] Zha Ewry: it also can leave one in places where one might HAVE to screen scrap HTML
[9:50] Rex Cronon: what sai?
[9:50] Zha Ewry: which is satanic evil
[9:50] Morgaine Dinova: Currently I see more of a problem with Hurli than with Josh. Josh is discussing things a la IETF. Hurli is just doing what he wants, in total silence on the VWRAP mailing list, and is claiming that the result is "VWRAP". If you're looking for problems for the IETF group, there's one.
[9:50] Latif Khalifa: lol if by "clever" you mean cripple all but human with two eyes watching the screen
[9:51] Mojito Sorbet: I think he was talking about using a web interface fo rthings. Not necessarily human-readable
[9:51] Saijanai Kuhn: http doesn't neccesarily require screen scraping
[9:51] Latha Serevi: Zha, I saw Josh address the screen-scrape issue by being very clear that we want to have something like a content-type so that interacting entities can agree on a non-human-readable form....
[9:51] Morgaine Dinova: I've told Hurli this directly. He said he would be more open on the list. He hasn't been.
[9:51] Latif Khalifa: Mojito, no, he's specifically talking about sending html representation
[9:51] Saijanai Kuhn: html on the other hand...
[9:51] Zha Ewry: Well
[9:51] NaoWut Digfoot: morg: not a major issue. no input, no control.
[9:52] Zha Ewry: Right, content is a way to allow multiple APIs to be exposed, as it were
[9:52] Zha Ewry: The concern, well posed, I think, and Josh did deal with it in the whole
[9:52] Mojito Sorbet: A very succesfull and widely used design will become the standard,m regardless of what IETF decides, if they are too slow about it
[9:52] Zha Ewry: is "Don't just expose a text/html" media type as *it*
[9:52] Morgaine Dinova: Wut: not so, it's de facto control.
[9:53] NaoWut Digfoot: Zha: text/xml, surely, would be saner?
[9:53] Zha Ewry: And..the .. issue, (Not I think inherently a problem, but an issue) is that the cute trick of
[9:53] Zha Ewry: pushing just html, lets one avoid the discussion of the API
[9:53] Latif Khalifa: Zha, it does not make sense to yank it ouf of vwrap then, if it's not text/html
[9:53] Rex Cronon: why not let everybody do their thing and allow for "natural" selection:)
[9:53] Zha Ewry: as soonn as you allow BOTH a web control and an API
[9:53] Mojito Sorbet: "Just HTML" suddenly becomes a lot harder, once you consider internationalization and accessibility
[9:54] Zha Ewry: right, you start saying "hmm. Maybe it needs to be somewhere"
[9:54] Latha Serevi: I think we'd benefit if there were a speaker-to-Hurli who keeps a close eye on SimianGrid and talks about it with the rest of us.
[9:54] Zha Ewry: Now.. Thus, my comment of "pure"
[9:54] Zha Ewry: One way of dealnig with this, which is very sane is to say
[9:54] Zha Ewry: "here is the core"
[9:54] Zha Ewry: an for each thing like "say, managing land" we do an informatoinal RFC
[9:54] Zha Ewry: describing the API as that emerges
[9:54] Morgaine Dinova: Zha: that's the road to nil interop.
[9:54] NaoWut Digfoot: ..and expose a CAP for it
[9:55] Zha Ewry: Well, yes and no Morgaine
[9:55] Saijanai Kuhn addresses IRC participants. Can you hear us?
[9:55] Latif Khalifa: and you end up with a mess like ws-security soap thingy
[9:55] Mojito Sorbet: But manageing land may be something that some VW's do not have at all. Or do differently. It would be a mess to put that in the main protocol.
[9:55] Zha Ewry: Yes, in the sense that you may end p with very little ocnsensus on the optionality thing
[9:55] Kuhn|coyled: SL-Saijanai|Kuhn: yes
[9:55] Mojito Sorbet: Now, the EFFECTS of land management dso have to be in the protocol. "You can't go there"
[9:55] Zha Ewry: but, no, in the sense that its very much defacto
[9:55] January Lightfoot: /args need to run,,, work is calling keep it up!
[9:55] Morgaine Dinova: There won't be any interiop at all if each world defines its own informational RFCs. That's what LL wanted originally of course, as Infinity explained very directly.
[9:55] Rex Cronon: tc
[9:56] Dahlia Trimble: what's the irc channel?
[9:56] Zha Ewry: So, Mojito has a very clear comment, and I agree
[9:56] NaoWut Digfoot: also, generally, from an implementors standpoint, it is much more pleasant to implement a core standard and build up extensions, rather than pour over a monolithic document
[9:56] Zha Ewry: the effects clearly need to be in there
[9:56] Zha Ewry: and also any visual cues
[9:56] Jeddin Laval is Offline
[9:56] Zha Ewry: Parcel boundaries, for example
[9:56] Trimble|coyled: SL-Dahlia|Trimble: #groupies on irc.quickfox.net
[9:56] Zha Ewry: if you want to be able to draw them
[9:56] Zha Ewry: you can't not describe them in core
[9:56] Mojito Sorbet: If my VW has a land property called "tangle factor", I do not want to force everyone else to support it.
[9:57] Zha Ewry: Right, and in fact, you can't.
[9:57] Zha Ewry: Nobody can force anyone to support a feature
[9:57] Mojito Sorbet: As long as the EFFECT of "tangle factor" can be carried over the core protocol.
[9:57] Zha Ewry: Again, yes
[9:57] NaoWut Digfoot: but my viewer can look at your VW's feature list, and i can implement tangle factor support into my viewer
[9:57] Latha Serevi: I'm interested in Mojito's direction, and particularly the "visible effects" part of an unsupported thingy.
[9:57] Morgaine Dinova: I think this comes back to what we mean by interop. If a common client can't be used with elements from more than one world, you have no interop at all.
[9:57] Rex Cronon: u can force
[9:57] Mojito Sorbet: Take red walls for example
[9:58] Zha Ewry: Not sure, Morgaine. We have how many Web Clients?
[9:58] Rex Cronon: if they want 2 connect 2 your grid...
[9:58] Mojito Sorbet: The way of setting parcel access rightrs might be in the API. But ther error message when you try to walk on my grass is in the core protocol
[9:58] Zha Ewry: +1 mojito
[9:58] Latif Khalifa: Zha, they all more or less produce the same result, the web clients
[9:58] Morgaine Dinova: Zha: all web "clients" support a common data model, with very few exceptions.
[9:59] Zha Ewry: Right, but many many people with many many perfectly workable clients can't see about 50% of the content ont he web
[9:59] Zha Ewry: and we don't cry too much
[9:59] Dahlia Trimble: there's really little that SL content has in common with any other 3D platform other than OpenSim
[9:59] Mojito Sorbet: My VW might be able to exclude avatars with red hair, or under a certain height. Only my management API knows that stuff
[9:59] NaoWut Digfoot: also, to state the bleeding obvious, parcels should probably be defined as arbitrary volumes rather than be tied to a 2d grid.
[9:59] Mojito Sorbet: But if you are a short red-haired peron and you try to enter my land, you hit a wall. Doesn't matter at that point exactly WHY the wall appeared
[9:59] Zha Ewry pouts at the idea of exclusing short aves
[9:59] Mojito Sorbet: That was just an example. :)
[9:59] Saijanai Kuhn: n-dimensional regions ftw
[9:59] Mojito Sorbet: Yes, about using volumes
[10:00] Morgaine Dinova: Zha: are you talking about text clients seeing 50%? Because all graphic web browsers see 99.9% of the same thing.
[10:00] NaoWut Digfoot: i'm happy with 3, saij, but.. :)
[10:00] Mojito Sorbet: I will exlcude short people only alternate Tuesdays. Is that a 4th dimension?
[10:00] Zha Ewry: No, I'm thinknig that iphones and ipads don't see flash, and while people are yowling around the edges, we don't say "The html./http + Mime type extenede cocntent" model is broken.
[10:01] NaoWut Digfoot: hehe, possibly. though that could probably do better with a different property for temporal stuff :)
[10:01] Mojito Sorbet: Android is on more phones than there are iPhones
[10:01] Latif Khalifa: now claiming flash is 50% of the web is a bit bold :P
[10:01] Oliver Szondi is Online
[10:01] Mojito Sorbet: Googler has some new video thing they are pushing
[10:01] Morgaine Dinova: If graphic 2D browsers didn't all see pretty much the exact same thing, the web would be a very different place to what it is today. But because there is a common protocol and a common data model, everyone sees the same thing, to a high degree of exactness.
[10:02] Mojito Sorbet: Not counting IE
[10:02] Zha Ewry: It isn't, but Flash, and the random content which requires a specific plugin of tyype X" is probably closer to 50% than further from
[10:02] Zha Ewry: In some sense, Morgaine, that;s exactly my point
[10:02] Zha Ewry: We need to be able to see the core all the time
[10:02] Mojito Sorbet: Google wants their new web video system to be built into browsers, not a plugin
[10:02] Latif Khalifa: absolutely not true, > 90% of the content requires no plugins
[10:02] Morgaine Dinova: Well flash is exactly the kind of thing we're trying to avoid --- a de facto standard that in the end everyone suffered from.
[10:02] Zha Ewry: the questoin is where the core ends and extension begins
[10:02] Latif Khalifa: and yes, they say it's broken, hence the push for html5 to kill off the remaining 10%
[10:02] Goldie Katsu is Online
[10:03] Dahlia Trimble: 3D content is different tho, it's usually designed around a specific display technology
[10:03] Saijanai Kuhn cringes at more non-plugin standards.. Can we say security flaw?
[10:03] Mojito Sorbet: "VP8"
[10:03] NaoWut Digfoot: Dahila+
[10:03] Latha Serevi: I think we shouldn't fear that "VWRAP Core" will define what's in the "common-case interop viewer". It'll be much much smaller.
[10:03] Mojito Sorbet: That will be hard to acheive for a while, until the people who write video device drivers can be convinced to get on the ball
[10:04] Dahlia Trimble: and often designed for a specific purpose
[10:04] Zha Ewry: Well, my take is that the web's style, is going to be similar here
[10:04] Zha Ewry: Which is the core stuff, gets into everything, and then things like "oh, look, I can do point clouds"
[10:04] Zha Ewry: aren't going to show up in the mainline at firsttt
[10:04] NaoWut Digfoot: :)
[10:04] Latha Serevi: What we'd like is for "VWRAP Core + A, B, C" will be supported by the common-case viewer, not "VWRAP Core or alternatively Magic-new-protocol"
[10:04] Morgaine Dinova: Sai: the problem with Flash (in this INTEROP context only, ignoring other issues) is that it was a proprietary implementation with a spec that only one company controlled. It's not an inherent plugin problem at all.
[10:04] Zha Ewry: and at some point, peopel will go "ok, that one is really de-facto rerequired"
[10:04] NaoWut Digfoot: gigavoxels are fun, though.
[10:05] Latif Khalifa: web style is that all major web browser all have nearly the same capabilities and display the content in almost indistingushable way
[10:05] Mojito Sorbet: Just like Javascript and AJAX changed how the web looks
[10:05] Zha Ewry: +2 Latha
[10:05] Latif Khalifa: if you push inventory to html and only linden client can really manage linden inventory, that's a mega-fail
[10:05] Zha Ewry: and the trick Mojito, is alway "at any time"
[10:05] Morgaine Dinova: Zha: that's fine as long as "core stuff" contains everything that's needed for basic VWs.
[10:06] Zha Ewry: Looking at what the defacto "must have to be good web browser" feature set over time is illuminating
[10:06] Mojito Sorbet: I would say "Inventory management" is a separate service, ina fully open world
[10:06] NaoWut Digfoot: Morg: how basic is basic?
[10:06] Zha Ewry: (and then how long its taken for those de-facto" bits to become de-jrue
[10:07] Zha Ewry: And, I agree, Inventory, has to be core
[10:07] Morgaine Dinova: Wut: the core has to provide a way for a common client to work with multiple worlds.
[10:07] Zha Ewry: Controlling land parcels? I'm pretty sure not
[10:07] Zha Ewry: And.. that's also where what Josh is saying makes a lot of sense
[10:07] Mojito Sorbet: With 3rd pary asset stores, the idea of "inventory" (how I manage 'my stuff') clearly moves outside the sim
[10:07] NaoWut Digfoot: Morgaine: define these multiple basic worlds
[10:07] Zha Ewry: even if you don't have a shared API
[10:08] Zha Ewry: you can expose a pretty good webish API to control stuff
[10:08] Morgaine Dinova: Why does inventory have to be core? Inventory is just a tree of pointers to assets, the protocol doesn't need to know anything about it.
[10:08] Latif Khalifa: so in order to change parcel music on my second life parcel i'll have to login with a linden client?
[10:08] Zha Ewry: I don' think so Latif
[10:08] Mojito Sorbet: Naybe a web page? Kind of clumsy...
[10:08] Morgaine Dinova: Saying that inventory is core to VWRAP is like saying that mail folders are core to SMTP. It's nuts.
[10:08] Latif Khalifa: Zha, how else if parcel management is not standard
[10:09] Zha Ewry: Have you looked at 2.01 media setting panel?
[10:09] NaoWut Digfoot: Morg: yes, but keep abstracting away and you wind up with IP as the protocol :)
[10:09] Latif Khalifa: Morgaine, mail folders are standard in imap
[10:09] Zha Ewry: Web woudl be worse how?
[10:09] Mojito Sorbet: Right click on the grass, and a web page opens
[10:09] Latif Khalifa: Zha, saying things cannot be worst that viewer2 isn't saying much
[10:09] Mojito Sorbet: Same as now - it is just in a separate window
[10:09] Zha Ewry: Or in the internal client
[10:09] Zha Ewry: The webkit internal client is actually pretty decent as a web UI
[10:10] Rex Cronon: i thing that the objects in the world r the core
[10:10] Zha Ewry: The hard thing, and the one you care about it making the thing you expose have proper content
[10:10] Rex Cronon: think
[10:10] Zha Ewry: *is
[10:10] Rex Cronon: 8
[10:10] Saijanai Kuhn: For those that missed it, chat log of Joshua's presentation: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2010-04-20
[10:10] Zha Ewry: The scenegraph, and the cues, for things which are external to it, Rex?
[10:10] Curious Sciurus is Online
[10:10] Morgaine Dinova: Latif: I didn't say IMAP, I said SMTP. IMAP doesn't work at all unless the mail was received by SMTP in the first place. VWRAP is the SMTP equivalent. The equivalent to IMAP is (for example) WebDAV.
[10:10] Mojito Sorbet: A standard thing might be "right click the ground to get parcel info". That will open a window. What is IN the window might vary.
[10:11] Zha Ewry: What I'd say @mojito, is"The cue that you can click on thr land"
[10:11] Zha Ewry: is the bit you need to get standard
[10:11] Latif Khalifa: Morgaine, nonesense, how is client going to be able to fetch and display inventory to the user if the api for doing so isn't standardized
[10:11] Zha Ewry: and then, the question is what happense
[10:11] Cindy Bolero is Online
[10:11] Rex Cronon: anything that is made of facets:)
[10:11] Mojito Sorbet: Now, someone oculd build a viewert hat did it other ways. Like clicking on the menu bar in the 1.23 viewer
[10:12] Latha Serevi: I observe that we are behaving as if we have confused "VWRAP Core" with "basic stuff in the common interop viewers that we like the look of". I think the former going to be a lot narrower than the latter. Shouldn't we be clear about that?
[10:12] Zha Ewry: Again, you need the cue that the option is there, but agreed
[10:12] Mojito Sorbet: If Inventory management is a service, then each service will have its own look and feel. You pick the one you like
[10:12] Mojito Sorbet: I am sure the web server control panel form the web service you use is different form the one I use.
[10:12] Zha Ewry: afk a moment, sorry, person trying to do things in meatspace
[10:12] Morgaine Dinova: Latif: presentation in a viewer is miles away from the interop that VWRAP is doing. VWRAP has nothing to do with presentation, and folders are a presentation issue.
[10:13] Latha Serevi: Morgaine, if you in particular could address my last comment?
[10:13] Morgaine Dinova: I agree, Latha.
[10:13] Latif Khalifa: Morgaine, are you actually reading what I say? Inventory needs a defined api, I mention nothing about the presentation, the viewer needs the data in order to show it
[10:13] Mojito Sorbet: Latha, I think core stuff starts out at real-time interaction and visualization stuff, with whewre your avatar is right now.
[10:14] Latha Serevi: Mojito, I think probably not.
[10:14] Mojito Sorbet: "starts out"
[10:14] Latha Serevi: No, I'm saying you're already too broad! :-o
[10:14] Mojito Sorbet: oh
[10:14] Morgaine Dinova: Latif: yes I read what you are saying very well, and you're confusing a client issue (inventory) with a data interop issue (VWRAP protocol)
[10:14] Latha Serevi: The core is how we bootstrap. Might not have any visualization in it at all!
[10:15] Morgaine Dinova: Agree with Latha
[10:15] Mojito Sorbet: The "world viewer" function and the "inventory viewer" function are separate. One program might implement both
[10:15] Rex Cronon: u still need 2 know what objects r where
[10:15] Rex Cronon: even if u dont draw them
[10:15] Latha Serevi: Rex: more along the lines of "who's communicating with whom", I'd think, not necessarily all objects.
[10:15] Latif Khalifa: you still need to standardize the protocol for fetching the inventory
[10:16] Mojito Sorbet: Yes
[10:16] Mojito Sorbet: What an inventory reference to an asset means, clearly has to be standdized
[10:16] Latif Khalifa: 3 things need addressing first, scene, asset and inventory
[10:16] Mojito Sorbet: Also the semantics of "wear this hat"
[10:16] Zha Ewry: back
[10:16] Dahlia Trimble: I'm surprised that after 2 years none of this is written and agreed upon
[10:16] Latif Khalifa: they don't work without one other
[10:16] Morgaine Dinova: If we remove everything from some "VWRAP core", and only standardize that "core", then there is no standardizing of the things that are required for interop. That's the problem.
[10:16] Mojito Sorbet: "It is documented in Linden's code" :)
[10:16] Latif Khalifa: lol
[10:16] Zha Ewry: (Anyone want a box full of heat disipation information for Intel servers?"
[10:17] Rex Cronon: is imperativ 2 know what/who is where. it is a 3d world
[10:17] RevMagdalen Kyrie: maybe there could be like a common suitcase in all the worlds, and inside it handles all a person's objects somehow
[10:17] Morgaine Dinova: Latif: you're thinking "LL". The inventory is not "fetched", except in the stupid Linden model that's totally braindead.
[10:17] Morgaine Dinova: VWRAP != SL
[10:17] Mojito Sorbet: An inventory is a collection of references. Could be stored anywhere
[10:17] Morgaine Dinova: As Mojito says
[10:17] Mojito Sorbet: Could be right onyour local disk.
[10:17] Aurora Kitaj is Online
[10:17] Morgaine Dinova: Yep
[10:17] Zha Ewry: Well, an in any other client model where you allow somoeone to keep thier inventory seeprate from the client
[10:17] Zha Ewry: Could be, but could be inthe cloud
[10:18] Mojito Sorbet: Though you might preferr to rent a web place for it, so you can access it from multiple clients,
[10:18] Zha Ewry is not keeping inventory exxlucisvly on the laptop hard disk
[10:18] Mojito Sorbet: Yes
[10:18] Mojito Sorbet: Can log in anywhere and still get my stuff
[10:18] Zha Ewry keeps NOTHING excplusively on the laptop hard disk
[10:18] Latif Khalifa: we can all come up with some far fetched examples... no problem
[10:18] Mojito Sorbet: Sounds like an "Agent Domain" service
[10:18] Zha Ewry: And, even so
[10:19] Zha Ewry: The "What an inventory reference lokos like"
[10:19] Zha Ewry: is the bulk of the spec
[10:19] Zha Ewry: whether you fetchi t from a local URI or a remote one
[10:19] Zha Ewry: is anit
[10:19] Zha Ewry: its what it looks like,a nd where you can hand it off to that matters
[10:19] Mojito Sorbet: Spec also has to say how you pass such a reference to the sim, so you can attach/detact/rez/give it
[10:20] Zha Ewry: Where ou can hand it, and what happens
[10:20] Zha Ewry: *you
[10:20] Morgaine Dinova: Inventory can be anywhere, and you only need to "fetch" it in a legacy setting like with SL. In any sensible client, your inventory will be with you when you log in, you won't need to fetch anything. Only if your local cache gets out of sync, or you're on a new machine, only then with come fetching occur. VWRAP != SL, because SL is insane in its inventory model.
[10:20] Zha Ewry: And, for the record? The fact that we're alls till hashing this out, is yes,a pretty major fail for everyone involved
[10:21] Morgaine Dinova: Yep
[10:21] Rex Cronon: i cav have local and sever inventory
[10:21] Latif Khalifa: Morgaine, you still need an api to fetch it if inventory can be anywhere, I assume by anywhere you include "not on my local disk"
[10:21] Saijanai Kuhn: I'm curious as to how Rycom handles things or Wonderland
[10:21] Morgaine Dinova: After 3 years, and we're still debating this. Pretty badm huh
[10:21] Zha Ewry: Well, that's your use case Morgaine. My use case is that I never want a local copy to be definitive. The nice thing is that we spec it right an we can do both.
[10:21] Saijanai Kuhn: Ryzom*
[10:21] Mojito Sorbet: Inventory is not Assets.
[10:22] Mojito Sorbet: Though the problems in defining them are somewhat similar
[10:22] Zha Ewry nods
[10:22] Zha Ewry: and I don't hand a sim an inventory item, I don't think to rez a ptim
[10:22] Mojito Sorbet: Sinced they clearly have to talk to each other as well
[10:22] Latif Khalifa: assets definetly cannot be on your local disk
[10:22] Saijanai Kuhn: unless you have a P2P world, of course
[10:22] Zha Ewry: I am pretty sure I hand a sim, something I get from the asset server holding the item, which allows the sim to fetch it
[10:22] Mojito Sorbet: Unless your local disk is accessible to the sim
[10:22] Rex Cronon: assets can be local
[10:23] Mojito Sorbet: A HUD might come from you local disk
[10:23] Latif Khalifa: Mojito, in that case you become a asset server
[10:23] Morgaine Dinova: Zha: I'm right with you there, not saying that local has to be authoritative --- let the authority be where the user chooses.
[10:23] Zha Ewry: Sure, they can be local, but that just means you expose your local assets to the external world as an asset server
[10:23] Mojito Sorbet: If anyone else is supposed to see the thing, it has to be on a public server somewhere
[10:23] Saijanai Kuhn: unless its a HUD or something similar
[10:23] Zha Ewry: All I'm saying is make the model realize that the lcoal copy on the disk is nohting privledged
[10:23] Zha Ewry: Its just a frapping URI
[10:23] Zha Ewry: List of same
[10:23] Zha Ewry: Sometimes loaded locally
[10:24] Zha Ewry: sometimes lcoaded remotely
[10:24] Rex Cronon: when u connect 2 server u also upload assets
[10:24] Zha Ewry: and sometimes typed in by your cat
[10:24] Latha Serevi: If someone drew a compelling picture (like, a visual drawing) of VWRAP plus a couple of other associated protocols, showing how VWRAP Core allows them to be knitted together using identity, service discovery, and setting up of streaming connections from A to B ... then we'd be less stressed about what "must" be in VWRAP Core.
[10:24] Mystical Demina: but you are assuming assets will go through an asset server, can't the client just be given an URI and get it directly?
[10:24] Gazanfer Jehangir is Online
[10:24] Mojito Sorbet: The asset server is where it is stored.
[10:24] Zha Ewry: @mystical that URI is an asset server
[10:24] Mojito Sorbet: server(s)
[10:24] Mystical Demina: ok
[10:24] Zha Ewry: wherever you store it, the URI points to it
[10:25] NaoWut Digfoot: Latha: a big unsorted list of stuff we can bicker and argue about the partitioning of would be handier
[10:25] Zha Ewry: can be a huge cloud of linden aset servers
[10:25] Saijanai Kuhn: also, the issue of shared experience comes up. If you have a private URI, its only for your consumption
[10:25] Mojito Sorbet: You pass the URI to the sim, saying "rez this here".
[10:25] Mojito Sorbet: Sim and asset server negotiate whether you are allowed to do this.
[10:25] Zha Ewry: (and probably a onetime or limtied use URI in a lot of cases)
[10:25] Latha Serevi: NaoWut, disagree. Then we get all upset because something's above or below the line, but we need to realize when doesn't matter so much.
[10:26] NaoWut Digfoot: Latha: heh, point ;)
[10:26] Rex Cronon: well. the sever that hosts the 3d world can become a temp asset server
[10:26] Mojito Sorbet: How strict the access controls are is entirely up to the asset server. Potential for different service offerings there
[10:26] NaoWut Digfoot: Latha: but that'll happen anyway :)
[10:26] Zha Ewry: totally Mojitoa
[10:26] Zha Ewry: And the binding of servcie to hardware box is very much a choice
[10:26] Zha Ewry: Put it all in one box, or scatter it across the web
[10:27] Mojito Sorbet: Like Github.. Public storage is free up to a certain size. Want more than that, or fancy access controls, you pay
[10:27] Zha Ewry: the protocol shouldn't really care, except tot he extent you see delays
[10:27] Mojito Sorbet: yes
[10:27] Saijanai Kuhn: and you can alkways sidestep the classic client-server model by using a cobalt-style plugin to share assets only with particpants in whatever you're doing (whiteboard or mortal combat)
[10:27] Mojito Sorbet: So Linden could offer their own Asset server in house. OIt has to compete with thew 3rd pary services, but their advantage would be performance
[10:27] Zha Ewry: If I put my assets in a link set, and each prim in the set is in a differen server, on a different combat, don't expect fast rezzing
[10:27] Zha Ewry: *contientnt
[10:27] Zha Ewry: sheeesh
[10:28] Saijanai Kuhn admires Qarl's original ant
[10:28] Zha Ewry: Reading and typing is hard
[10:28] Saijanai Kuhn: Enus says its still used for region crossing issues
[10:28] Zha Ewry: There's no reason to assume that there is any single privleged deployment pattern
[10:28] Zha Ewry: Asset server inside or outside trusted cluster is the choice of the peopel putting up regoins and grids
[10:29] Morgaine Dinova: I think we have a small naming problem: we're using the term "inventory" to mean two different things, (i) the tree of IN-CLIENT references that all clients with inventory functions MUST have locally, and (ii) the authoritative tree that may be elsewhere.
[10:29] Mojito Sorbet: You can also have a replicated asset service, to improve response times to worldwide viewers.
[10:29] Mojito Sorbet: A user in Europe might fetch your clothing texture form a different server tha nsomebody in Japan
[10:29] Latif Khalifa: the question that comes up here is the objective of vwrap, what does it want to do really?
[10:29] Mojito Sorbet: using the same URI
[10:29] Latif Khalifa: is the goal to provide a spec that would allow building of a universal VW client
[10:29] Saijanai Kuhn: and some kind of proxy network thing ala what the intel guy mentioned recently
[10:30] Zha Ewry: I don't personally want a single universal client,tho it shoudl be possible to build one
[10:30] Mojito Sorbet: Latif - I think that is certainly one of the primary goals
[10:30] Saijanai Kuhn: qusi-universal at least
[10:30] Latif Khalifa: or is it going to be some minimul required, so you can be a tourist, but for more advanced features you would need a specific world client
[10:30] Mojito Sorbet: I think both would happen
[10:30] Saijanai Kuhn: a bit of both< I think
[10:30] Zha Ewry: +1 mojtio
[10:30] Mojito Sorbet: Especially if one world had some unique content.
[10:30] Zha Ewry: I fully expect there will be times when peopel say 'For the best experience, use the flibleblob client"
[10:31] Mojito Sorbet: But a plugin archgitecture might evolve, like for web media
[10:31] Zha Ewry: just like you see "This works best on IE8, Chrome or Firefox 5+ with flash 10 or higher"
[10:31] Latif Khalifa: Zha, then we are back and web 1.0 iconds "use ie6 here" only
[10:31] Mojito Sorbet: Add this plugin to the viewert to render my nifty molecular diagrams
[10:31] Latif Khalifa: where do you see those anymore?
[10:32] Latha Serevi: I think both "allow universal client" and "minimal required" are too ambitious. Framework for describing/bootstrapping those, perhaps?
[10:32] Mojito Sorbet: In corporations, whose developers fo rinhouse stuff only design for IE
[10:32] Zha Ewry: if you use older than about ie7, you see them a fair bit, not whole pages, but you get broken bits and pop up warnings still
[10:32] Zha Ewry: I think you'll see one or more prettty big universal clients
[10:32] Mojito Sorbet: Where I work, we are not supposed to ship stuff to customers that requires a specific browser. The inhouse apps do not seem to be following that rule
[10:32] Zha Ewry: I expect you'll see (and we can't stop if we try) client/sim pairings which simply do better than others
[10:33] Paradox Olbers is Online
[10:33] Zha Ewry: But, I expect if you use a current, broadly popular client
[10:33] Latif Khalifa: then vwrap should define everything such universal client should be able to acomplish
[10:33] Morgaine Dinova: I think we're trying to create a protocol for VW rendering that mirrors the protocol for website rendering. If we don't do that, then there will be no interop.
[10:33] Zha Ewry: the bulk of vwrap complient sims will work
[10:33] Mojito Sorbet: I use the analog of HTTP/HTML/UTF8, and what theat combination allowed the web to grow into
[10:34] Static Melody: i agree with morgaine, the basic protocol should just render the world at vw://myworld.com and allow links (teleports)
[10:34] Morgaine Dinova: Think "mashup". That's what VW interop is about, creating a visual mashup of elements from more than one VW.
[10:34] NightShade Fugu is Online
[10:34] Morgaine Dinova: Static: you're agreeing to something I didn't say :P
[10:34] Latha Serevi: Latif, I'm concerned that you are imagining way too much in VWRAP. I think you're describing VWRAP plus a couple of other things.
[10:34] Rex Cronon: protocol dosn't have anything 2 do with rendering
[10:34] Mojito Sorbet: one hopes
[10:35] Zha Ewry: The procoocl only touches rendering tot he extend it describes some prim stuff
[10:35] Zha Ewry: and mesh stuff and suc
[10:35] Zha Ewry: h
[10:35] Static Melody: yes, and that's it :)
[10:35] Zha Ewry: but.. that's the smallest (if most iomportant in some cases) bits
[10:35] Mojito Sorbet: But the data describing the meshes to the viewer, and textures, comes from elsewhere
[10:35] Latif Khalifa: Latha, I'm concered that vwrap wants to minimize itself to the point where making a universal client is impossible
[10:35] Rex Cronon: viwer renders data. protocol only transports it
[10:35] Mojito Sorbet: Just like your web page may contain a picture that comes form a different server entirely
[10:35] NaoWut Digfoot: Latif++
[10:36] Latha Serevi: Latif--
[10:36] Zha Ewry: Finding the bounary between those too, is the challange here
[10:36] Zha Ewry: *two
[10:36] Morgaine Dinova: Latha: VWRAP has to provide interop. If it doesn't then it's failed, so it does no good to exclude things from VWRAP purely for elegance. An elegant, slim VW protocol that doesn't provide VW interop is of no use to man or beast.
[10:36] Latha Serevi: Morgaine--
[10:36] Latha Serevi: The "universal client" is not going to just speak VWRAP Core and that's all it speaks.
[10:36] Morgaine Dinova: Latha--
[10:36] Zha Ewry: Make the client too fat, and we're never going to finish, or allow innovatoin, too thin, and it will become no interop
[10:36] Mojito Sorbet: But an easy solution is the one Josh proposed - you pop up a web page to handle the out-of-band stuff.
[10:36] Zha Ewry: The sweet spot, is enough commonality to allow extention and inocatoin
[10:37] Zha Ewry: *innocatoin
[10:37] NaoWut Digfoot: *innovation
[10:37] Zha Ewry: the web, especially in 1995, was pretty slender
[10:37] Mojito Sorbet: new ideas
[10:37] Zha Ewry: TY Nao
[10:37] Latha Serevi: I think this is sorta important, I'm amazed that we're quite so out of sync on this. I see the minimal core as being about bootstrapping, not defining what a satisfying level of interop is.
[10:37] NaoWut Digfoot: :)
[10:38] Morgaine Dinova: It's pointless defining "VWRAP Core" to be the core functions of VWRAP". That gets us nowhere.
[10:38] Mojito Sorbet: A minimal web browser doe snot barf when presented HTML. It gets more useful once you give it a pretty page to render
[10:38] Latha Serevi: Bootstrapping, or Satisfying?
[10:38] Latha Serevi: me = bootstrapping.
[10:39] Zha Ewry: My personal take is that the core is going to be the same in both cases, btw, the only question is where we draw the normative vs. optional lines
[10:39] Mojito Sorbet: It is going to be an iterative process
[10:39] Zha Ewry: +1 mojito
[10:39] Mojito Sorbet: Otherwise HTTP and HTML would not have version numbers
[10:39] Zha Ewry chuckles
[10:39] Morgaine Dinova: What we're trying to achieve is interop. If we want to factor the interop protocol into a few separate and clean chunks, that's great. But we can't just standardize one of them, some mythical "core", and expect interop to happen by magic. The other protocols need to be standardized too.
[10:39] Zha Ewry: mind you we use 0.9 and 1.0 pretty much only for http
[10:40] Zha Ewry: html has grown up a lot more
[10:40] Zha Ewry: and NOTE that http is the protocol
[10:40] Zha Ewry: and html is the content rep
[10:40] Zha Ewry: which is not shocking
[10:40] NaoWut Digfoot: ...slow down, you're loosing me already XD
[10:41] Zha Ewry: http really hasn't changed a lot in 15 years. html has changed a lot more, and html+core espect stuff, has changed even more
[10:41] Zha Ewry: and I think that's a n important model to keep in mind
[10:41] Mojito Sorbet: HTTP was designed to be extensible, with new headers
[10:41] NaoWut Digfoot: yeah. note, a lot of that was refining the spec to address the invitable ambiguities that had crept in
[10:41] NaoWut Digfoot: (microsoft dicking around aside)
[10:41] Zha Ewry: I expect a lot of what I htink of as "core vwrap" or the buildng blocks" is http like stuff
[10:42] Zha Ewry: and the 'How do I do land management" or "how do I do media setting" is more about content makrup, ie, I pass along the "Thsi is acontrol thing" teanspoert
[10:42] Mystical Demina: at least http like stuff would be a good start, keeping it simple will make it easier to get adopted
[10:42] Zha Ewry: and the markup which tells me what it is, changes over time as we understand more
[10:42] Mojito Sorbet: All mentions of HTTP in the forgoing is not to suggest that HTTP is the one great protcol on which VWs should be based. Mergely for illustration
[10:42] Zha Ewry: +10 mojito
[10:42] NaoWut Digfoot: ^ as mojito says
[10:42] Morgaine Dinova: Yeah Mojito
[10:43] Mojito Sorbet: HTTP will have its place
[10:43] NaoWut Digfoot: but we need fleshed out details on low latency world updates, and. actual. real. data.
[10:43] Latha Serevi decline hitchhikers towel with logo from A group member named Squirrel Wood.
[10:43] NaoWut Digfoot: it would be terribly embarssing to specify a nerfed protocol there...
[10:43] Zha Ewry: Well, in most scenes, attm, the vast majority of databy bytes is tectures and sculpties
[10:44] Mojito Sorbet: By volume, yes
[10:44] Zha Ewry: The "real time"ish stuff
[10:44] Mojito Sorbet: Not be message count
[10:44] Zha Ewry: is lots of small packets
[10:44] Zha Ewry: which tell you where things are
[10:44] Zha Ewry: and sometimes, how they are moving
[10:44] Mojito Sorbet: And where they move
[10:44] Zha Ewry: (oh, and nits like chat and such)
[10:44] Mojito Sorbet: And that I just changed my anim
[10:44] Zha Ewry nods a mojito
[10:44] Rex Cronon: animations, and sounds also
[10:45] Zha Ewry: right, by message count, real time may well be highest
[10:45] Zha Ewry: by volume, gettign big slugs of quasi static data to render almost certainly is volume
[10:45] Mojito Sorbet: Lots of little messages. But ordering and reliable delivery are still important
[10:45] Latif Khalifa: SL protocol as-is is pretty terse about that, most data by valume is assets
[10:45] Zha Ewry nods
[10:45] NaoWut Digfoot: agreed. also note we need some objectives, world update frequency for e.g. I don't expect VWRAP to accomodate fast twitch ego shooters, but i don't see any caveat there
[10:45] Latif Khalifa: volume even
[10:46] Zha Ewry: I expect that the protocol *should* allow us to slot in a nice low level realtime transport for the realtie caps as they become more avaialble
[10:46] Mojito Sorbet: You can not get around the fact that end-to-end transmission delays are on the order of 100ms
[10:46] Latif Khalifa: just offloading asset downloads from sim dramatically improves its perfomance, intel engieers found
[10:46] Saijanai Kuhn: Wut, there's no reason why a VWRASP compatible viewer/world can't handlde FTES
[10:46] NaoWut Digfoot: Zha: absolutely, but it probably ought not to be a goal for core
[10:46] Zha Ewry: Not sure, if the caps grant pattern is rich
[10:47] Zha Ewry: allt hat changes is I grant a nice rtp:// cap
[10:47] Zha Ewry: not a https:// cap
[10:47] Morgaine Dinova: Wut: we already have a nerfed protocol defined, since currently we're doing everything over long poll and hence 50 times the current latency. I'm hoping HTTP negotiation lets us specify an alternative mechanism, else there will be trouble.
[10:47] Mojito Sorbet: Cerainly aVW running entirely on a campus LAN should be able to take advantage of the faster timing available
[10:47] Zha Ewry: Actually, morgaine, very little flows over the long poll inthe actuall linden sims
[10:47] Mojito Sorbet: deifne "long poll" I keep seeing that term
[10:47] Gazanfer Jehangir is Offline
[10:48] Zha Ewry: The http get pipe for fetching sim->client data
[10:48] Saijanai Kuhn: the client gets a http connection to the sim and requests new events from it
[10:48] Zha Ewry: becaue the sims can' address the client as an http server
[10:48] Rex Cronon: all these discussions about protocol r nice, but maybe we need a server to test things on
[10:48] Zha Ewry: But in practie, all that data, mostly is on udp still
[10:48] Morgaine Dinova: Zha: that's because SL hasn't moved everything to HTTP yet.
[10:48] googoo Papp is Online
[10:48] Saijanai Kuhn: Ajax long poll
[10:48] Zha Ewry: (One might ask why, Morgaine, mightn't one)
[10:48] Morgaine Dinova: :-)
[10:48] Mojito Sorbet: Sounds to me like keeping a READ open on your network socket would be enough for that
[10:48] Zha Ewry: I will observe that
[10:48] Rex Cronon: so. why is going to provide the server?
[10:49] Zha Ewry: a 90% tcp pipe or a 90% UDP pipe both work better than
[10:49] Zha Ewry: a 50-50 UDP//TCP pipe
[10:49] Zha Ewry: (Because the backoff mechanaisms don't talk to ech other)
[10:49] NaoWut Digfoot: Mojito: pretty much, long poll is simply where client connects to server, and server blocks until events come in, whereupon it flushes messages to the client
[10:49] Saijanai Kuhn: well, let me port opensim to smalltalk, and Merik will be happy to host one for free on his silicon squeak server ;-)
[10:49] Morgaine Dinova: Mojito: webbies don't understand TCP. They don't realized that data can come to you without sending an HTTP request first.
[10:50] NaoWut Digfoot: Morg: they do, it's just the protocols and infrastructure don't allow it.
[10:50] NaoWut Digfoot: not all webbies are drooling idiots
[10:50] Mojito Sorbet: I want the world descriptions to come to me on TCP. Guaranteed delivery.
[10:50] Goldie Katsu: push vs. pull
[10:50] Latha Serevi: Webbies assume everyone's behind a firewall. Unix-ies assume no one is. :-b
[10:50] Saijanai Kuhn: just about any comp can handle long poll. Some can't handle more traditional games connections
[10:50] Zha Ewry: huge amounts of the internet is built around the downstream dominantn, firewall blocked model, as much as one hates it
[10:50] Morgaine Dinova: Wut: the protocols and infrastructure ***DO*** allow it. And always have, since the start of TCP/IP. The only problem is in webbie's minds.
[10:51] Mojito Sorbet: If I connect to the server over TCP, you get a bi-directional pair of channels, and no firewall issues
[10:51] Paradox Olbers is Offline
[10:51] Morgaine Dinova: Yep
[10:51] Morgaine Dinova: As Mojito says.
[10:51] Zha Ewry: And the bandwidth providers habit of blocking traffic at the boundary edge
[10:51] NaoWut Digfoot: Mojito: yep. hence the model. of course if UPNP is configured (ick) or you explicitly open ports, more fun can ensue.
[10:51] Mojito Sorbet: And UDP works through most firealls as long as you send keep-alive messages
[10:51] NaoWut Digfoot: UDP works through everything other than broken firewalls :)
[10:52] Mojito Sorbet: depends how paranoid your firewall admin is
[10:52] Morgaine Dinova: It's totally bizarre that the basic operation of TCP/IP is completely ignored, just because of a web view.
[10:52] Zha Ewry: tcp goes through a lot fewer places than udp
[10:52] Mojito Sorbet: Even though the web is implemented on top of TCP
[10:52] Mojito Sorbet: huh?
[10:52] Morgaine Dinova: You'd think the webbies would trig, huh? Not a chance though
[10:52] Mojito Sorbet: fewer places?
[10:52] Rex Cronon: one of the problems with udp is that lots of firewalls don't let it pass:(
[10:52] Morgaine Dinova: twig*
[10:53] Mojito Sorbet: The coporate firewall at my office only allows outbound connections to TCP port 80. But there is a way through that
[10:53] Saijanai Kuhn: ptth FTW
[10:53] NaoWut Digfoot: i can get free network access on my phone if i limit my communications to DNS queries :)
[10:54] Zha Ewry: And it being almost 11:00 last thoughts?
[10:54] Zha Ewry: and anyone got a topic for next week?
[10:54] Morgaine Dinova: There's no need for all that stupid ptth crap. Again, it's webbie thinking.
[10:54] Mojito Sorbet: we need pictures
[10:54] Saijanai Kuhn: that's a pretty low bandwidth connection but you coiuld probably handle gorup IM through it
[10:54] Mojito Sorbet: DNS-abuse?
[10:54] NaoWut Digfoot: shh. it's fun. if laggy :)
[10:54] Zha Ewry: until somenoe notices you doing it and shuts you off
[10:54] Latha Serevi: Does anyone want to help me to draw the inspiring pretty-picture diagram that helps us all get along in sweetness and light, by showing three or four VWRAP pieces including Latha's "bootstrapping" piece and enough other pieces for Morgaine's "Satisfying" requirement?
[10:55] NaoWut Digfoot: Zha: true. i've not yet tried to download several megabytes of junk through it in one go for that reason :)
[10:55] Morgaine Dinova: A single TCP stream opened from the client to the server is enough to carry messages in both directions forever, with no need for any HTTP at all.
[10:55] Saijanai Kuhn: ask that in groupies IM as well, Latha
[10:55] Zha Ewry: Not this week, but possibly in 2, Latha
[10:55] NaoWut Digfoot: that's how comet works, morg.
[10:55] Morgaine Dinova: Wut: no it doesn't
[10:55] Latif Khalifa: Morgaine, yes, but that also means you have to write your own app level protocol
[10:55] Goldie Katsu: As long as you can get through the firewall - some fws actually do protocol checking and not just port filtering.
[10:56] Zha Ewry: More and more stateful ones, actually
[10:56] Latif Khalifa: and you end up in a situation which you criticize linden udp for, it's not really udp, but udp + some magic sause on top
[10:56] Morgaine Dinova: Latif: sure, but it's not rocket science to frame messaging.
[10:56] NaoWut Digfoot: Latif: failsauce?
[10:57] Latif Khalifa: tcp has problems with high startup cost and multiplexing issues that require writing another protocol on top of it
[10:57] Zha Ewry: Old rule of networking anyone using UDP implement TCP on top of it, but badly
[10:57] Mojito Sorbet: I have some ideas for some doodles, I will try to make up
[10:57] Goldie Katsu: either that or magic sauce using the magic you didn't want.
[10:57] RevMagdalen Kyrie: I just want to say I have faith in you guys to figure all this stuff out, and learn from past experience and make this whole VW thing amazing and a great tool for humanity, like a whole new frontier of the internet and social networking
[10:57] Dahlia Trimble: how about implementing UDP on top of http?
[10:58] RevMagdalen Kyrie: don't be hard on yourselves, it's already mind-blowingly fantastic and it's less than a decade old
[10:58] Rex Cronon: if such a thing is to every exists it might need sponsors:)
[10:58] RevMagdalen Kyrie: if you build it, they will come
[10:58] Morgaine Dinova: Latif: LL reimplemented a reliability layer, not simple message framing over an already reliable stream. There's no rocket science in framing, whereas a reliability layer is black magic because you have concurrent interactions, race conditions, and all that jazz.
[10:58] Latif Khalifa: Dahlia, open vpn can tunnel everything (including udp and icmp) over basically https :P
[10:58] Goldie Katsu: some graphics would be nice as it helps me see the pieces all together.
[10:58] Saijanai Kuhn: zThat's what we're hoping RevM
[10:58] Agent Heliosense is Offline
[10:58] Rex Cronon: even philip need it monies to make sl:)
[10:59] NaoWut Digfoot: RevMagdelen: yes. but if you build it wrong then they will complain loudly and you'll wish they hadn't.
[10:59] RevMagdalen Kyrie: haha nao!
[10:59] Saijanai Kuhn: zha, at some point or another, could you invite philip to talk about what he's been doing lately?
[10:59] RevMagdalen Kyrie: well you guys are so careful to correct one another and check every angle I am sure you will build it well
[10:59] Rex Cronon: morgaine. u r right is not rocket science
[10:59] Rex Cronon: it is called computer science:)
[10:59] NaoWut Digfoot: Rex =7
[10:59] Mojito Sorbet: What Philip is doing has no bearing on VWRAP
[10:59] Zha Ewry: Ooh. Interesting. It hink he's pretty much deep in the bowls of his love child
[10:59] Dahlia Trimble: Latif, I wasnt serious but I felt like I was doing just that when I was working with an event queue model
[10:59] Saijanai Kuhn: I asked him to stop by and chat in Groupies IM, but that was a bit of a bust
[11:00] Goldie Katsu: even built well there will be criticisms but built well you can at least argue for it confidently.
[11:00] Morgaine Dinova: Zha: that was a somewhat unfortunate mixed metaphor :P
[11:00] Latif Khalifa: Dahlia, except EQ is bad high-latency UDP :P
[11:00] Goldie Katsu: I agree with Morgaine there.
[11:00] Zha Ewry: or very forunate, take your pick Morgaine ;-)
[11:00] Morgaine Dinova: lol
[11:00] Zha Ewry: I don't htink he's doing much VW thinking attm
[11:01] NaoWut Digfoot: yeah, my spacemoney is on Zha doing that intentional, now the logging stopped :)
[11:01] shamirkatsu: graphics would not help with that zha
[11:01] Zha Ewry: he seems pretty much focused on Lovemachine
[11:01] Goldie Katsu: the love child metaphor?
[11:01] Dahlia Trimble: Latif, latency can be improved
[11:01] Goldie Katsu: That makes sense that that is his focus. Metaphors aside.
[11:01] Zha Ewry: the fine grained wuffi management tool, yes
[11:02] Zha Ewry: Whuffie
[11:02] Zha Ewry: sigh
[11:02] NaoWut Digfoot: Dahila: yea, with a protocol design methology driven by measurements taken with heavy loading
[11:02] Zha Ewry: I cannot type for beans today
[11:03] Saijanai Kuhn: oh he stopped by Sunday afternoon and said hi, but the only response he got was less than tech-oriented
[11:03] NaoWut Digfoot: that's about usual for philip for the last few years though
[11:03] Rex Cronon: time 4 me 2g2 andrew's oh. tc everybody
[11:03] Morgaine Dinova: Measurements ... that'll be the day.
[11:03] NaoWut Digfoot: seeya rex
[11:03] Dahlia Trimble: NaoWut, the heavy loading is the hard part :/
[11:03] NaoWut Digfoot: Morg: i know, right? XD
[11:03] NaoWut Digfoot: Dahlia, oh, i can load your servers heavily, np!
[11:03] NaoWut Digfoot: xD
[11:04] Zha Ewry: xD ind eed
[11:04] Dahlia Trimble: I can too, but bots dont really work as well
[11:04] Zha Ewry: People do such odd things in real life
[11:04] Zha Ewry: bots just.. don't
[11:04] NaoWut Digfoot: no
[11:04] Aurora Kitaj is Offline
[11:04] Saijanai Kuhn: eh random number generators could do odd things too
[11:04] NaoWut Digfoot: i had a boss once, who managed to foil every single test case i'd ever written
[11:05] Zha Ewry: That said, I suspect bot load would be better than not
[11:05] Zha Ewry: and I suspect the current sims have been build with "not"
[11:05] Morgaine Dinova: Well with all the brickbats the LL viewer receives, I think it's worth mentioning that it's the best-instrumented 3D app on the planet. (Of the ones I've seen anyway :P)
[11:05] Saijanai Kuhn: pyogp is barely being utilized from what I can gather
[11:05] WordzKicker Payer v1.03: $10 WordzKicker - Latha Serevi, you were KICKED from slot 4 by Honey Coba! You won $40!
[11:05] NaoWut Digfoot: well i'm of the opinion that frankly, the first 4 designs we might come up with will suck. nicer to know why sooner rather than later
[11:05] Zha Ewry: totally nao
[11:06] Dahlia Trimble: Unity has a lot of instrumentation
[11:06] Zha Ewry: whichi is why working from working if broken
[11:06] Zha Ewry: is good
[11:06] RevMagdalen Kyrie: I actually like the Viewer 2 except for the default security settings, but I know I am outvoted by like everyone ever ;-)
[11:06] NaoWut Digfoot: i'm happy to work from broken. i just need some real data to do anything. driving blindfolded is pretty useless :)
[11:06] Zha Ewry looks at Rev and calls the ambulance in fromt he funny farm
[11:06] Saijanai Kuhn srhugs hard to keep track of requirements for bouncing back and forth with viewers so I stick to V2
[11:06] RevMagdalen Kyrie: well I think it will be the easiest one to use to bring new people in
[11:07] Zha Ewry: /e is on v2.01 but.. it's painful in so many ways
[11:07] RevMagdalen Kyrie: it has everything simply laid out
[11:07] Zha Ewry: So does a brick.
[11:07] RevMagdalen Kyrie: only they sould put the "stop animating me" on a big button because it's scary for noobs when they get stuck
[11:07] Morgaine Dinova: Dahlia: sounds good, but I can't take Unity seriously while it's Windows only :-(
[11:07] Dahlia Trimble: Ive been using V2 for a couple months now, I'm really trying to give it a fair shake... but it's severly compromised compared to older UI designs
[11:07] NaoWut Digfoot: rev: and "take me to the money tree"
[11:07] RevMagdalen Kyrie: hahaaa!
[11:08] Zha Ewry ponders the needed newb buttons
[11:08] NaoWut Digfoot: Morg: it's not windows only! they support Mac too! :)
[11:08] Zha Ewry: "TP me to Zindra"
[11:08] Zha Ewry: "Money please"
[11:08] Zha Ewry: "Stop animating me"
[11:08] RevMagdalen Kyrie: well I'm hoping taht more noobs will be coming for specific events, like a field trip into 3D worlds for transitioning into having a 3D element in an existing social network
[11:08] Zha Ewry: "Start animating US"
[11:08] RevMagdalen Kyrie: so hopefully they will not be annoying noobs, they will be serious people ;-)
[11:09] NaoWut Digfoot: actually you might have accidentally raised a point there rev :)
[11:09] RevMagdalen Kyrie: yay!
[11:09] NaoWut Digfoot: Zha: it would be particularly nice to have WebGL support
[11:09] Zha Ewry: /ne likes all people, neebs are important, not matter how annoying at first
[11:09] Zha Ewry: Without newbs, the places will die
[11:09] NaoWut Digfoot: given that will be adopted rather widely by the time anything like an RFC would be published
[11:09] Dahlia Trimble: the main reason Im using V2 tho is because I dont need invisiprims with this avatar ;)
[11:10] Zha Ewry: Good reason that
[11:10] Tillie: It's sooo hard to do anything with client 2.0, if you do not just newbie stuff like teleporting around and watching.
[11:10] NaoWut Digfoot: Tillie :)
[11:10] RevMagdalen Kyrie: hopefully it would be something like, oh, everyone in this or that club or group will have a space in a virtual world, and meet up there as a regular thing for soem reason, to hear a speaker or listen to a podcast or socialize with whoever
[11:11] Tillie: But even then... teleporting using the map, no x/y/z coords to enter ... *sigh*
[11:11] Hermit: Accessing art.
[11:11] RevMagdalen Kyrie: it will be like having email or twitter or facebook, you have your 3D telepresence space
[11:11] Dahlia Trimble: well Im off to another meeting.. bye all :)
[11:11] RevMagdalen Kyrie: only hopefully people will look cooler in telepresence
[11:11] Zha Ewry: ok, everyone see you all next week for another exciting round of As the Virtual World turns
[11:11] Morgaine Dinova: I'm in OSgrid
[11:11] RevMagdalen Kyrie: like this group right here ;-)
[11:11] NaoWut Digfoot: Zha :) see ya
[11:11] Jeddin Laval is Online
[11:11] Goldie Katsu: See ya
[11:12] Morgaine Dinova: Nice jacket, Goldie :-)

??? [11:12] GoldieKatsu: thanks!|}