Open Source Meeting/2010-06-03

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Agenda Thursday, 3 June 2010

  1. Weekly Snowglobe update - Merov Linden
    • 1.4 been built yesterday
    • 2.0 also
    • Almost all "easy" ports done for 2.0. Please check the spreadsheet. 2 "big features" are at risk for different reasons:
      • SNOW-666: OGP Login: Pixel not available for the port. Should we consider blocking SG2.0 release for this? If we do, volunteer to take over the port? (we need someone who is willing to test connection to OpenSim's servers supporting the protocol)
      • SNOW-670: Drop down identities for login: 2.0.2 is changing the login quite a bit so I feel that doing this in 2.0.1 is a waste of time. We'll be facing yet another difficult merge in 2.0.2. I'm proposing to punt that one.
  2. The future of Snowglobe 1.x
    • What features in 1.x not yet in 2.x are most important to move?
  3. SNOW-77/VWR-17711 (HTTP Map URL capability)
    • John Hurliman asked whether we could get SNOW-77_map_url_cap.diff committed
    • This will be more useful if it's included in the regular Viewer2.x as well. What does Merov (or other relevant Lindens) think about this?
  4. SL7B : Ideas and planning for the Snowglobe stand (Robin Cornelius)
  5. Template:Snowglobe-installers-trunk says "1.4.0 Release". Shouldn't it say "1.4.0 Test Build"?
  6. Your topic here!


Transcript

[14:00] Aimee Linden: Hullo!
[14:00] Bronson Blackadder: what did you break today Aimee?
[14:00] Techwolf Lupindo smiles
[14:00] WolfPup Lowenhar: hey amiee
[14:01] WolfPup Lowenhar: hey merov
[14:01] Merov Linden: Hi guys
[14:01] Robin Cornelius: Hi everyone
[14:02] Merov Linden getting the agenda
[14:02] Lars Donardson: most likely Aimee broke the Hippo installer...not that I would be the slightest bit surprised *snickers*
[14:02] Merov Linden: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Open_Source_Meeting/Agenda
[14:02] Robin Cornelius: SL7B acceptances are comming out now, not had ours yet
[14:03] Merov Linden: Hope they won't bust us.... that'd be odd...
[14:03] Aimee Linden: um my Hippos are all fine as far as I can tell
[14:03] Merov Linden: ok, let's start
[14:03] Merov Linden: Oz told me he'll be a little late
[14:03] Aimee Linden: yup, ctrl-alt-shift-H working a treat
[14:04] Lilly Zenovka: hi
[14:04] Merov Linden: so, first, my update
[14:04] Merov Linden: for those who receive JIRA alerts and sldev-commit emails, you know I've been on a tear through JIRA and 2.0 patch log
[14:04] Techwolf Lupindo smiels
[14:05] Merov Linden: so you know wht I've been doing...
[14:05] Techwolf Lupindo: I've notice, but I didn't have time to finished all the easy ports on the google doc, I know there was at least three more I could have done.l
[14:05] Merov Linden: I also unblocked that darn 1.4 parabuild machinery and it's firing again
[14:05] Robin Cornelius: whohoo
[14:05] WolfPup Lowenhar: ya i know having to do a rebuild of my viewer at least once a day
[14:05] Robin Cornelius: you wanted a SNOW-169 commit to test that?
[14:05] JIRA helper: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SNOW-169

[#SNOW-169] Viewer crash: LLViewerImage::doLoadedCallbacks: ASSERT (mRawImage.notNull())

[14:06] Merov Linden: so we have fresh builds of 2.0 and 1.4 as of yesterday
[14:06] Merov Linden: on 169: I commented that the patch seems good to be committed
[14:06] Merov Linden: I'll crank another build as soon as you commit
[14:07] Robin Cornelius: I would like a final ok from Thickbrick, her was testing it a lot, i think it was fine
[14:07] Robin Cornelius: *he
[14:07] Merov Linden: it's easy to hit "start" on parabuild, the hard part is fixing it when it fails repetitively... :/
[14:07] Latif Khalifa: 169 was fixed 100% with that patch for me
[14:07] Robin Cornelius: ah cool Latif
[14:07] Merov Linden: great!
[14:08] Thickbrick Sleaford: I think the patch is good - I started having weird crashed when testing it, but they kept going even after I removed the patch from my viewer and rm -rf-ed my cache, so not related
[14:08] Merov Linden: so, yes, please feel free to commit on 1.4 Robin (and other committers)
[14:08] Merov Linden: I'll get the build firing
[14:08] Techwolf Lupindo: How many committers we got?
[14:08] Latif Khalifa: http textures got disabled on aditi in the meanwhile
[14:08] Merov Linden: outside Lindens? half a dozen...
[14:08] Merov Linden: not enough
[14:09] Thickbrick Sleaford: yes, just when I had a couple of fixes for 1.4 to test with http
[14:09] Techwolf Lupindo: Thick, the beta OH is after this one.
[14:09] Latif Khalifa: Thikbrick, Tervus Plaza on OSGrid :)
[14:09] Merov Linden: k, on 2.0, I'm asking the crowd to review 2 issues with me
[14:10] Merov Linden: first: SNOW-666
[14:10] JIRA helper: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SNOW-666

[#SNOW-666] Port of SNOW-215 to SG 2.0 : OGP Interop login/teleport

[14:10] Thickbrick Sleaford: I'm crashing too often on OSGrid
[14:10] Robin Cornelius: Any particular crash routes?
[14:10] Merov Linden: Pixel was supposed to do the port but she won't be available for a looong time
[14:10] Merov Linden: :(
[14:11] Merov Linden: so we're left with that patch dangling with no owner
[14:11] Thickbrick Sleaford: ( SNOW-696 SNOW-697 and SNOW-698 )
[14:11] JIRA helper: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SNOW-696

[#SNOW-696] Crash on Opensim: ERROR: ~LLRefCount: deleting non-zero reference

[14:11] JIRA helper: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SNOW-697

[#SNOW-697] Crash to desktop without backtrace on Opensim (in memcpy()), when using http testures

[14:11] JIRA helper: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SNOW-698

[#SNOW-698] Crash when http-getting an empty texture: ERROR: doWork: ASSERT (mFormattedImage->getDataSize() > 0)

[14:12] Merov Linden: Any taker? I'm eyeing the OpenSim folks in there...
[14:12] Thickbrick Sleaford: I sort of understood she mean to update it for the newer drafts of VWRAP, not just port it
[14:12] Merov Linden: well, she gave me no date for when anything will happen on her side
[14:13] Merov Linden: looks like she's been assigned to a new project so progress her side will be slow
[14:13] Robin Cornelius: brb 2.0 ha ground to a halt
[14:14] Ardy Lay: "expected behaviour"
[14:14] Merov Linden: hmmm...
[14:14] Latif Khalifa: Merov, there is very little momentum on vwrap front anyway, ufortunately
[14:14] Merov Linden: that has to be the understatement of the day Latif...
[14:14] Latif Khalifa: haha
[14:15] Thickbrick Sleaford: I thought things were waking up recently
[14:15] Techwolf Lupindo: The ones that have done mulit-loggin are doing it differetnlly and I think emerald is taking that one in. So the snowglobe one has been sorta abanded. :-(
[14:15] Merov Linden: well, one question for OpenSim folks: how bad that is for you not to have Pixel's patch?
[14:15] Latif Khalifa: and there are some legal issues, i thik opensim folks have asked this a year ago
[14:15] Merov Linden assumes other aspects of it were useful
[14:15] Ardy Lay: Sorry, just a little miffed so many issues with the new UI are getting closed as expected behaviour.
[14:15] Latif Khalifa: but got no answer from LL
[14:15] Mojito Sorbet: Just because it is expected does not mean it is correct
[14:16] Thickbrick Sleaford: which legal issues?
[14:16] Merov Linden: hold that thought Ardy
[14:16] Merov Linden: can you elaborate Latif?
[14:16] Merov Linden: Is that because Snowglobe is GPL?
[14:17] Techwolf Lupindo: Can someone set no outside sounds on this parcel? I can hear them, but can't see them to mute the gesterbaters.
[14:17] WolfPup Lowenhar: the ozz man cometh :p
[14:17] Latif Khalifa: as you know OpenSim devs got the legal advice that they should ot work with SG source code, unless LL gives explicit permission to the OpenSim team
[14:17] Bronson Blackadder: gesturebaters... good term for them
[14:17] Latif Khalifa: yes, because of the license
[14:17] Oz Linden: hi
[14:17] Merov Linden: well, on cue Oz
[14:17] Merov Linden: :)
[14:18] Merov Linden: we're hitting a "licensing issue" discussion
[14:18] Mojito Sorbet: Oz (The Great and Powerful)
[14:18] Oz Linden: oh fun
[14:18] Techwolf Lupindo: The OpenSim team hired a very bad lawer.
[14:19] Merov Linden: or a very good one... there's a fine line there... :)
[14:19] Oz Linden: I have not seen the SG discussion ... someone have a pointer to what's needed?
[14:19] Merov Linden: the gist: OpenSim folks would like modifs to be done in Snowglobe *but* they can't touch it as it's GPL and have been advised not to touch GPL code with a long pole
[14:19] Latif Khalifa: i can find out the details and forward it to you Oz
[14:20] Thickbrick Sleaford: this is the Opensim policy: http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Contributions_Policy #OpenSim_Licensing_Conditions
[14:20] Latif Khalifa: Merov, not GPL per se, copyright(c) LL
[14:20] Mojito Sorbet: More precisely, they have a rule that you can not work on OpenSim if you have looked at SG code in the last 6mo
[14:21] Merov Linden: I find this situation most unfortunate
[14:21] Mojito Sorbet: I do not claim to understand this...
[14:21] Oz Linden: I doubt that there's much we can do to influence that
[14:22] Oz Linden: but I'll have a look
[14:22] Nicky Perian: int mi=ost of opensim work on server code?
[14:22] Oz Linden: I'd certainly like it to be true that you all have the option to work on both
[14:23] Merov Linden: good, would be nice to get a clear handle on this
[14:23] Latif Khalifa: about a year ago OpenSim dev team has enquired LL about giving explicit permission (don't kow the exact legal term) but can find out
[14:23] Latif Khalifa: no answer was recieved
[14:23] Mojito Sorbet: If all it takes is a letter form LL Legal Dept, that would be a quick fix
[14:24] Oz Linden: if you can find the query, I can look into getting some kind of response (even if it's one that won't make them happy, they should get some response)
[14:24] Merov Linden: k, looks like an action item for Oz :)
[14:25] Latif Khalifa: basically assurances were asked that LL will not go after OpenSim for copyright issues should that clause about not looking at the SG source be lifted
[14:25] Merov Linden: in the meantime, it seems that we should punt SNOW-666 off SG2.0
[14:26] Merov Linden knew something bad would happen ion that JIRA when the number was generated...
[14:26] Lilly Zenovka: where's the issue if the code is gpl ?
[14:26] Ardy Lay: They want a blessing they can flaunt.
[14:27] Eddy Stryker: i think the legal term is estoppel (IANAL)
[14:28] Merov Linden: we'll know more next time
[14:28] Merov Linden: well, let's move on now that Oz has an action item here
[14:28] Merov Linden: next SNOW-670
[14:28] JIRA helper: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SNOW-670

[#SNOW-670] Port of SNOW-129 to SG 2.0 : Select account from list at login

[14:28] Bau Ur: (laughing at AImee Linden's tag) :)
[14:28] Latif Khalifa: please don't port that!
[14:28] Thickbrick Sleaford: that bad?
[14:28] Merov Linden: That one I'm askign not to port
[14:28] Robin Cornelius: Not in that form anyway
[14:29] Eddy Stryker: that code ruined snowglobe
[14:29] Robin Cornelius: we need more of a grid manager
[14:29] Robin Cornelius: as we said Tuesday
[14:29] Merov Linden: because of changes coming down in 2.0.2 (see viewer-external)
[14:29] Latif Khalifa: in fact i would ask for it to be removed from 1.x too
[14:29] Merov Linden: well, if on top of that, people want something else, please do make proposal!
[14:29] Latif Khalifa: it's buggy, interferes with command line params, grid selection...
[14:30] Oz Linden: sounds like community consensus to me - let's drop it
[14:30] Mojito Sorbet: Combine it with grid-selection
[14:30] Eddy Stryker: what latif said. snowglobe 1.x is dead to me now because of it
[14:30] Thickbrick Sleaford: It makes life a lot easier *if* you only log in to a few grids
[14:30] Ardy Lay: I like it but I only log into Agni and Aditi.
[14:30] Mojito Sorbet: Not saying you need a complete grid setup for each account, buyt that the account list be managed be part of that
[14:31] Eddy Stryker: and you use different names on each grid, and your grids are on different host names, and you never use -loginuri
[14:31] Merov Linden: Grid selection: we talked about it Tuesday, we need a design though and code
[14:31] Thickbrick Sleaford: one problem with it is to enter a new grid for an existing username, you have to run it the appropriate command line arguments, then be aware of the quirks of LLComboBox
[14:31] Ardy Lay: Yeah, just saying it hasn't hurt me as I only care about Second Life grids.
[14:31] Thickbrick Sleaford: i.e. typing first name then hitting delete before moving focus to the last name iinput
[14:32] Latif Khalifa: it simply doesn't work, cannot be disabled either, and kills login params from command line
[14:32] Merov Linden: can't that be simply fixed?
[14:32] Merov Linden: command line could be made to override this
[14:32] Eddy Stryker: it could be removed entirely, that would be a significant improvement
[14:32] Latif Khalifa: yes, i agreee
[14:33] Thickbrick Sleaford: I think it might relatively easy to add a setting to disable it.
[14:33] Jonathan Yap: You could have a debug setting to turn it off and on
[14:33] Eddy Stryker: it's already a usability nightmare. throwing debug settings into the mix is just going to pile worse on top of bad
[14:33] Merov Linden: It's still useful to SL users
[14:33] Eddy Stryker: i guess this is why there are separate viewers for SL and opensim grids
[14:33] Latif Khalifa: Merov, did you try to uncheck "remember" checkbox?
[14:34] Jonathan Yap: I think anyone smart enough to use a command line can manage a debug setting
[14:34] Techwolf Lupindo: If there are changes comming down the pipeline to addres this issues, punt on 2.0 untill the Login interface has settled down a bit. For snow 1.4, a debug setting to disable it to workaround the problems folks are having with it now.
[14:34] Merov Linden: Latif: nope
[14:34] Eddy Stryker: jonathan: automatic launcher tools use the command line too
[14:34] Latif Khalifa: doesn't work
[14:34] Oz Linden: Latif - in what way does it not work?
[14:35] Merov Linden: k, well, as far as SNOW-670 is concerned, looks like few tears shed by punting this, may be undefinitely
[14:35] Eddy Stryker: nothing in that patch works except for the extremely limited use cases it was tested with (switching between two linden grids)
[14:35] Merov Linden: I'd appreciate a design though: handling miltiple identities is still a pain...
[14:35] Lilly Zenovka: so drop it..
[14:35] Mojito Sorbet: Emerald 1634 had a "saved login" feature, but I do not see it in build 2012
[14:35] Latif Khalifa: Oz, you unheck "remember user" (can't remember exact phrase) and it still acts as it is on on the next login
[14:36] Latif Khalifa: and it overrides login grid selection after you tab from First name field
[14:36] Thickbrick Sleaford: unless you hit delete before you tab out...
[14:36] Thickbrick Sleaford: (I thought that was fixed, but it turned out it wasn't.)
[14:36] Oz Linden: I like the idea of soliciting proposals for user storyboards for a feature to allow for login using different accounts on one or more grids
[14:36] Techwolf Lupindo: Many SL residents have alts and that why the patch was made in the first place, to handle more then one account on SL.
[14:37] Bau Ur: That makes sense.
[14:37] Oz Linden: All Lindens will appreciate it :-)
[14:37] Merov Linden: +1 techwolf
[14:37] Robin Cornelius: What happened, i was busy crashing?
[14:38] Merov Linden: well, looks like we're 2 JIRA closer to completing 2.0...
[14:38] Latif Khalifa: Tech, it's useful, but the implementation is too buggy to be at the point where it's more hassle than it's worth
[14:38] Merov Linden: good :)
[14:38] Bau Ur: We decided to fix everything in 2.0 that makes everyone unhappy. It will be done by Tuesday :)
[14:38] Thickbrick Sleaford: The problem I see with with recreating the "grid maanger" patch that's in most TPVs is that it's not my idea of fun to rewrite gpl code.
[14:38] Techwolf Lupindo: But the HUGE obstictable with it is how to handle the same acount on different grids, aditi and agini, and diffrernet accounts on same grid and different grids. The maingrid and beta grid thows monkey wrenches in mulit account handling.
[14:39] Mojito Sorbet: Select grid First. Then select Accont within that grid.
[14:39] Lilly Zenovka: sounds good that way
[14:39] Mojito Sorbet: If you only use one grid, then you never touch that part of it
[14:39] Merov Linden likes that
[14:39] Techwolf Lupindo: While I have not seen it, there is a grid handleer some tpv group created.
[14:39] Eddy Stryker: techwolf: there are more grids than just "main and beta" grid, too. the quirks of handling all of the different grid scenarios need to be considered
[14:39] Mojito Sorbet: Or get a copy of Emerald 1634 and look how they did it
[14:39] Thickbrick Sleaford: I think SNOW-129 was under the contraint of not adding any more control to the login screen (decreed by Philip, IIRC)
[14:39] JIRA helper: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SNOW-129

[#SNOW-129] Select account from list at login

[14:40] Lilly Zenovka: actually this is what we have in imprudence
[14:40] Merov Linden: I think you're right Thickbrick
[14:41] Thickbrick Sleaford: but I don't think handling mutplitple acounts in mutiple grids can fit that constraint
[14:41] Merov Linden: but since that login screen is changing quite a bit in 2.0.2, seems like a good opportunity to rethik that
[14:41] WolfPup Lowenhar: why not hve it do <viewer><account><grid> type foldering system
[14:41] Merov Linden: looks like a good discussion to have on opensource-dev
[14:42] WolfPup Lowenhar: since the viwer all ready dose that for the most part
[14:42] Merov Linden: I'll punt those JIRA and notify opensource-dev, starting the discussion on this
[14:43] Merov Linden: k, let's move on
[14:43] Merov Linden: 2. the future of 1.x: features in 1.x most important to move in 2.x
[14:43] Mojito Sorbet: skins
[14:43] Lilly Zenovka: 1.x UI ?
[14:43] Techwolf Lupindo: Mulitlogin.
[14:44] Techwolf Lupindo lol
[14:44] WolfPup Lowenhar: yes please bring back the skins
[14:44] Ardy Lay: Mini-map pan and profile pop.
[14:44] Merov Linden: skins, good
[14:44] lufpleh Obstreperous: auto translator
[14:44] WolfPup Lowenhar: i miss the silver skin that is in 1.x
[14:44] Merov Linden: minimap is in...
[14:44] Lilly Zenovka: non intrusive chat
[14:44] Thickbrick Sleaford: I'm working on auto translator
[14:44] Ardy Lay: "Show Muted Text" option
[14:45] Techwolf Lupindo whispers: Is "mute" client side or server side enforced?
[14:45] Techwolf Lupindo: Is "mute" client side or server side enforced?
[14:45] Lilly Zenovka: textbox focus
[14:45] Robin Cornelius: I'm currently working on something that will reenable skins to be usable, they are not actually that broken
[14:45] Eddy Stryker: client downloads a mute list when it logs in
[14:45] WolfPup Lowenhar: you can show muted people objects in 2.x
[14:46] Mojito Sorbet: After typing ctrl-I to open inventory, move input focus to the Search field
[14:46] Bau Ur: yes, muting in 2 is good.
[14:46] Ardy Lay: VWR-18496
[14:46] JIRA helper: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-18496

[#VWR-18496] opening inventory with shortcut doesn't gives focus to the search field

[14:46] Techwolf Lupindo: On IRC, mute was client side, but the dialup link could still be DoSed, so a new server side commend was created, /silence <nick>
[14:46] Lilly Zenovka: I reopened this one...
[14:46] Bau Ur: I wonder why it is client side?
[14:46] Bau Ur: ah you just explained that :)
[14:47] Ardy Lay: EXT-6104
[14:47] Mojito Sorbet: VWR-18496 is one of those "Intended Behavior" bugs
[14:47] Ardy Lay: VWR-19509
[14:47] JIRA helper: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-19509

[#VWR-19509] Lack of "Show Muted Text" feature in 2.** viewer

[14:47] Bau Ur: Doesn't server side muting take some burden off the servers? SO that they need not send that data to the client? Or is the muting process more work than sending it would be?
[14:47] WolfPup Lowenhar: would be nice if the ststus inducators were in the top bar like in 1.x i miss those
[14:48] Lilly Zenovka: and get rid of this stupid adress bar
[14:48] Mojito Sorbet: You can right click the address bar to get rid of it
[14:48] Techwolf Lupindo: WolfPup, right click that bar, the settings are hidden in there.
[14:48] Eddy Stryker: bau: server muting would be more work than it would save, at least in our server implementations
[14:48] Lilly Zenovka: but then we don't have land name & infos.
[14:48] Bau Ur: Thanks, Eddy.
[14:49] Mojito Sorbet: Land name used to be up in the menu bar
[14:49] Merov Linden: hmmm... I never realized that mute was such a popular feature
[14:49] Ardy Lay: I click on parcel name to get the parcel properties. 2.0 killed that.
[14:49] Lilly Zenovka: mute can save your sl experience...
[14:49] Oz Linden: Mojito: you can put the land name back with a preference change
[14:50] Bau Ur: Mute allws people to refrain from shooting one another.
[14:50] Mojito Sorbet needs mute in RL
[14:50] Ardy Lay: Linden doesn't know how use use the viewer, Merov. That has been made VERY CLEAR with the unveiling of 2.0.
[14:50] Lilly Zenovka: good point Ardy.
[14:50] Thickbrick Sleaford: Mute is not just for griefers - it also helps when you have people who talk in Voice and fill the chat with useless gestures (see above re gesturbators)
[14:51] Oz Linden: ok.... as much fun as it might be, that sort of generality does not get us any closer to fixing anything
[14:51] Nicky Gilderoy: that is so right thick
[14:51] Bau Ur: THough some objects noise escapes Mute.
[14:51] Mojito Sorbet: I know a language school that uses mute in Voice all the time, when breaking up into separate groups during class
[14:51] Oz Linden: we need to find the specific changes that need to be made
[14:51] Ardy Lay: I tried. My JIRAs get closed "ecpected behaviour".
[14:52] Mojito Sorbet: The fact that it is "expected" is actually the bug. :)
[14:52] Bau Ur sputters with rueful sympathetic laughter
[14:52] Ardy Lay: 24 of them completely vanished from my sight.
[14:52] Oz Linden: file them against snowglobe
[14:52] Oz Linden: if you've got the numbers, they can be resurected
[14:52] Lilly Zenovka: Bring the 1.X UI behavior back and most of things will be fixed.
[14:53] Mojito Sorbet: SnowGLobe was *supposed* to be the leading edge where new ideas were tried out to eventually end up in the main viewer. Is that no longer the plan?
[14:53] Oz Linden: Lilly... please .... _specifics_
[14:53] Mojito Sorbet: The specifics are all in JIRA
[14:53] Bau Ur: It is hard to imagine that the work of making V2.x decent is worthwhile, when it is so deeply bad.
[14:53] Lilly Zenovka: as mojito points out...
[14:53] Robin Cornelius: The underlying core of 2.0 UI is actually better, if we can port 1.X things we like to the 2.0 XUI implementation it would be a good thing
[14:53] Lilly Zenovka: just the way the interface behaves...
[14:54] Nicky Perian: learning curve is the pits
[14:54] Nicky Perian: for 2
[14:54] Robin Cornelius: I really think skinning is the way forward here
[14:54] Thickbrick Sleaford: Oz, a starting step might be to hunt for EXT issues that don't need to be secret and move them to VWR
[14:54] Lilly Zenovka: the framerate drop is also imrpessive. well.
[14:54] Merov Linden: Robin: +1, "baby and bath water" metaphor in order
[14:54] Bau Ur: Pardon, I did not mean to draw us off topic.
[14:55] Merov Linden: Lilly: the perf issues are surely something I'd like to focus more
[14:55] Thickbrick Sleaford: (during the closed beta for 2.0 testers supposedly filed a lot of EXT issues that are now only visible to Lindens)
[14:55] Ardy Lay: Yes, frame rate in 2 is slower than 1.4 for me PLUS things LOD more agressively. Render detail is worse in 2 for some reason.
[14:56] Oz Linden: Thickbrick: making fewer things hidden is a major theme of my job, and I suspect that getting even close to the openness I'd like will take some time
[14:56] Merov Linden: Ardy: I did port a fix for that in SG2.0 as you know :)
[14:56] Lilly Zenovka: Merov : looks like it's caused by the chat bubbles
[14:56] Merov Linden: we tested together
[14:56] Bau Ur: Ardy that is also very disappointing to me. THe visual quality of SL matters very much to me. Over half the reason I am in SL pertains to the arts.
[14:56] Oz Linden: Performance is one of the things that will certainly get immediate attention
[14:56] Ardy Lay: Merov, that's not the LOD issues I am referring to.
[14:56] Mojito Sorbet: Fuzzy videos certainly will discourage machinima makers
[14:57] Ardy Lay: I am referring to that fact that prims are rendered with less detail under like conditions in 2.0.2
[14:57] Lilly Zenovka: Oz: usability is also important..
[14:57] Merov Linden: Ardy: even tweaking graphics prefs?
[14:58] Mojito Sorbet: "in like conditions"
[14:58] Ardy Lay: I am using the same setting on SG 1.4 and Viewer 2.0.2
[14:58] WolfPup Lowenhar: my current build of 2.x is only running 8.5FPS while im here
[14:58] Oz Linden: I understand that many things are important... I also understand that if the community abandons 2x completely instead of working on one thing at a time to make improvements, that the future becomes much harder to shape
[14:58] Ardy Lay: I see an extra setting in V2.0.2 that SG1.4 does not have: Max Avatar Draw Distance - 35 m
[14:59] Mojito Sorbet: The community gave you a list of specific changes when 2.0 first hit the streets
[14:59] Ardy Lay: JIRA JIRA JIRA
[14:59] Bau Ur: many many many sugestions :)
[14:59] Oz Linden: When 2.0 first hit the streets, I was not here
[14:59] Lilly Zenovka: but they turned to be "intended behavior"
[14:59] Ardy Lay: JIRA is still here.
[14:59] Nicky Gilderoy: yes, what happened to those
[15:00] Oz Linden: Listen... I am trying hard to come up to speed... what I'm asking for is help
[15:00] Oz Linden: I understand your frustration
[15:00] Techwolf Lupindo: Oz, there was over 5,000 jiras filed during the closed beta.
[15:00] Lilly Zenovka: you can have an idea just by checking the "viewer 2 tweaks" wiki page...
[15:00] Oz Linden: It is explicity my job to fix this relationship
[15:00] Merov Linden: looks like we need a loong triage session though EXT...
[15:00] Ardy Lay: Oz, Do you want to make a meta issue in JIRA that we can attach our interest so?
[15:00] Oz Linden: but I can't do it if everyone just says "all you lindens are the same and don't care"
[15:00] Bau Ur: I am sure no one meant to blame you, Oz. You are hearing a generalized frustration.
[15:00] Oz Linden: I care
[15:00] Nicky Gilderoy: you have a huge job
[15:00] Oz Linden: I will try to fix it
[15:00] Lilly Zenovka: Oz, this is not what we're saying.
[15:00] Mojito Sorbet: If Linden ignores the established feedback mechanism, you can understand the frustration on our end
[15:01] Oz Linden: I cannot do it unless I get help
[15:01] Oz Linden: from you
[15:01] Bau Ur: I am very gload you are on the job to fix it, Oz :)
[15:01] Oz Linden: I absolutely understand your frustration
[15:01] Oz Linden: I
[15:01] Techwolf Lupindo: Oz, we have. Linden ignored us. :-(
[15:01] Lilly Zenovka: just explain why all suggestions & jiras are closed without getting fixed.
[15:01] Mojito Sorbet: But we are not going to fix your closed code for you
[15:01] Oz Linden: I'm asking you to cut _me_personally_ some slack
[15:01] Oz Linden: and work with me to get things fixed again
[15:01] Nicky Gilderoy: how can we?
[15:01] Mojito Sorbet: Oh *that* we can do
[15:02] Techwolf Lupindo: Lilly and others, start a notecard with all the jira getting closed as "expected behivious" that should not be so it can be handle out to others and Lindens.
[15:02] Nicky Gilderoy: how can we help if we feel we are not heard?
[15:02] Mojito Sorbet: STart with looking at all the stuff in JIRA, I suppose. Pick out the reasonable requests
[15:02] Oz Linden: Linden actually didn't completely ignore you... they understood that they had a problem, and that they didn't really know how to solve it, so they went out and hired someone to help them figure it out. That someone is ME
[15:02] Bau Ur: You know, I always feel encouraged when I see that an issue is at least assigned to a LInden to work upon. I don't need things to be perfect. That's not possible in a world that is essentially always in beta. It is discouraging to feel that things get worse instead of better. It is encouraging to see evidence that problems are getting addressed. THus the disappearance of JIRAs that people created in good faith is demoralizing.
[15:03] Lilly Zenovka: ok, so you can report that we're VERY upset :)
[15:03] Oz Linden: I will keep saying it until someone takes me up on it.... I am listening
[15:03] Nicky Gilderoy: does a report that we are upset go anywhere?
[15:03] Mojito Sorbet: Before they hired you, they hired some outside consultants who never used SL. LL has to be willing to rexamine some of the advice they got.
[15:03] Oz Linden: but I need to find small steps that we can take together to rebuild a relationship based on mutual trust
[15:03] Oz Linden: I don't expect you to believe I can fix everything - I can't
[15:04] Ardy Lay: Oz, what exactly do you want us to do to present the individual issues to you? They are already all in JIRA.
[15:04] Lilly Zenovka: ok, for that the first thing is NOT IGNORING JIRA
[15:04] WolfPup Lowenhar: oz i would enjoy comeing to your OH's but schedualing conflicts are goiung to pervent me from being able to attend them at all
[15:04] Nicky Gilderoy: that will be difficlt
[15:04] Latif Khalifa: Oz, is Q your boss at LL?
[15:04] Oz Linden: Believe me... I have been communicating your distress very clearly
[15:04] Bau Ur: :) Luckily, Oz, fixing bugs and redeisgning banjaxed features will also build trust. So no one has to be a world class diplomat here. :)
[15:04] Oz Linden: but if all they hear is that your mad, it's hard to work out how to fix it
[15:05] Oz Linden: Let me talk about the state of JIRA for just a moment
[15:05] Mojito Sorbet: If people thought that the work they put into SG actually went somewhere upstream, it might improve willingness to put some work in
[15:05] Bau Ur: Oz, can you think of a way besides the JIRA that residents can help you prioritize?
[15:05] Bau Ur: Or to understand how LL prioritizes?
[15:05] Nicky Gilderoy: i agree with Mojito
[15:05] Nicky Gilderoy: we need to know we are heard
[15:05] Opensource Obscure: everybody please link (as child) your favorite Viewer 2 problems to Meta-Issue: Viewer 2 Problems https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-19310
[15:05] JIRA helper: [#VWR-19310] Meta-Issue: Viewer 2 Problems
[15:06] Mojito Sorbet: Not just heard. The contributions have to actually get adopted at some point.
[15:06] Nicky Gilderoy: why do anything if it goes nowhere
[15:06] Oz Linden: There is a plan being put together to upgrade the Jira software Concurrent with that, some improvements to workflow will be made - the net effect of which will be at least some (how much remains to be seen) increase in transparency
[15:06] Ardy Lay: I really think we just need to tune Linden's use of pJIRA. I don't really like the use of "back channels" for communication of non-security issues.
[15:06] Bau Ur: Cool. A more accessible JIRA would be helpful.
[15:07] Oz Linden: I am pushing that very point hard, Ardy
[15:07] Mojito Sorbet: good
[15:07] Oz Linden: My last project hid only security issues
[15:07] Merov Linden: +1 on Ardy's suggestion: one unified JIRA would help tremendously
[15:07] Oz Linden: It will now be one Jira
[15:07] Bau Ur: I think probably people realize that voting on JIRA issues is n itself not what should guide priorities in fixes. People tend to vote out of self-interest and not according to the needs of all and the big picture.
[15:07] Mojito Sorbet: w00t
[15:07] Merov Linden time check : past 7 min
[15:08] WolfPup Lowenhar: i need to head for a meeing on the beta grid
[15:08] Merov Linden: self interest is good!
[15:08] Nicky Perian: OPensource : for sg2 and viewer3 meta?
[15:08] Bau Ur: Thanks for the meeting, Merov.
[15:08] Nicky Perian: viewer2
[15:08] Latif Khalifa: yes, so many times issue gets imported to DEV, and after that a ton of comments that could help fix it gets inserted, and the original one is never updated with any feedback from devs
[15:08] Merov Linden: if everyone has the same self interest then it points to a real need
[15:08] Mojito Sorbet: Slef Interest sometimes means "I use this feature and count on it"
[15:08] Opensource Obscure: Nicky: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-19310 is for Viewer 2
[15:08] JIRA helper: [#VWR-19310] Meta-Issue: Viewer 2 Problems
[15:09] Lilly Zenovka: glad you recognize it...
[15:09] WolfPup Lowenhar: there is a meta-issue for source code problems
[15:09] Ardy Lay: Thanks Oz and Merov!
[15:09] Merov Linden: thanks guys...
[15:09] Oz Linden: ttfn
[15:09] Robin Cornelius: Merov, SNOW-169 committed
[15:09] Thickbrick Sleaford: Merov, before you go, there's a new #opensl IRC channel on Freenode
[15:09] JIRA helper: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SNOW-169

[#SNOW-169] Viewer crash: LLViewerImage::doLoadedCallbacks: ASSERT (mRawImage.notNull())

[15:10] Thickbrick Sleaford: If your IRC problems were EFnet specific, Freenode would probably work better.
[15:10] Robin Cornelius: Oh and Oz, still no word from SL7B? and its 3PM now ;-(
[15:10] Techwolf Lupindo: It is to some. 16 charater nicks is huge plus.
[15:10] Oz Linden: I'll try to find out what's up with that Robin
[15:12] Thickbrick Sleaford: Also, about SNOW-700, it's already implemented in 2.0.2, so I don't think we need to port it.
[15:12] JIRA helper: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SNOW-700

[#SNOW-700] Port of SNOW-197 to SG 2.0 : Avatar overall true height info to appearance editor window

[15:13] Merov Linden read Thickbrick's note
[15:13] Merov Linden: thanks
[15:13] Robin Cornelius: Ok, nn all

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