Pathfinding in Second Life/2012-05-03

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Transcript for Thursday May 3, 2012

[16:03] Lorca Linden ahh
[16:03] Lorca Linden well let's do it here then, hopefully interssted people will see the big group
[16:03] Lorca Linden let me get falcon
[16:03] Jonathan Yap Falcon was running late in another meeting
[16:03] TriJin Bade /me waves
[16:03] Lorca Linden nice call on the couch ;)
[16:04] Vincent Nacon oh yeah... no scripts on it
[16:04] Lorca Linden ok well let's get started then
[16:04] Lorca Linden so the first piece of news I have is
[16:04] Lorca Linden today we moved about 50 additional regions on the main grid to the pathfinding beta channel
[16:05] Lorca Linden i just sent an email out shortly before this meeting
[16:05] TriJin Bade /me coughs, "cept you put the wrong one of mine on it LOL"
[16:05] any1 Gynoid Congrats Lorca! That's MAJOR!
[16:05] Lorca Linden more details will follow soon about how to best optomize content
[16:05] Lorca Linden yeah, we are more than doubling the number of residnet regions in the beta as of today
[16:05] TriJin Bade More regions, more feedback, faster implementation.
[16:06] Lorca Linden for various reasons - including the main grid shenanigans from last week - we wanted to give the last group and build some baking time
[16:06] Lorca Linden before moving the next chunk of regions over
[16:06] Jonathan Yap Lorca, is the current PF server code merged with at least the RC versions?
[16:06] Lorca Linden also good news is : so far things look like they are going really well
[16:06] Vincent Nacon except for that one sim
[16:06] Vincent Nacon muhaha!
[16:06] Lorca Linden Pathfinding is not currently in RC, jonathan, though we expect it to be soon
[16:06] TriJin Bade I assume this is still the debug build, so half TD?
[16:07] Lorca Linden it's a partial debug build, which can impact performance
[16:07] Lorca Linden though I am really happy to say
[16:07] TriJin Bade gotcha, np.
[16:07] Jonathan Yap Lorca, I mean, what code base is PF on, because some serious bugs have recently been fixed which should also be in the PF version
[16:07] Lorca Linden of the 102 regions currently in pathfinding, all but 4 of them are performing at over 30 fps, with the great majority at over 40 fps
[16:08] Lorca Linden if you know people who are still interested
[16:08] Dahlia Trimble so expect time dilation?
[16:08] Lorca Linden tell them to email me asap, we are likely to move 1 more batch of resident regions over
[16:08] Lorca Linden but that will likely be the last before we release grid wide
[16:09] TriJin Bade I'm scanning one of mine now "Isle of Legacies" and it's doing 22fps TD0.4
[16:09] Dahlia Trimble did all the requests get on the last roll?
[16:09] any1 Gynoid <-- conducted stress tests on Snack Sandbox 3 past weekend.... ZERO observable performance impact.... until well over 100 pathfinding characters... includes Animated Critters
[16:09] Lorca Linden mostly
[16:09] Lorca Linden dahlia
[16:09] any1 Gynoid and virtually no Character crashes... amazing
[16:09] Lorca Linden but my original target was 100 regions
[16:09] Lorca Linden and we are there now
[16:10] Falcon Linden Hey folks
[16:10] Lorca Linden so I'm willing to allow a few more in for better testing, but I don't think we'll go above 150 regions for the beta
[16:10] Falcon Linden Sorry I'm late. I was busy fixing all problems in SL.
[16:10] Vincent Nacon heya
[16:10] Hyper (hyper.mole) all?
[16:10] Falcon Linden 100%.
[16:10] TriJin Bade /me waves
[16:10] Mæstro Linden (maestro.linden) 'Isle of Legacies' is the slowest region in the PF RC
[16:10] Vincent Nacon all? you wouldn't be here
[16:10] Lorca Linden as a whole, though, this roll went really well!
[16:10] Falcon Linden vincent: okay, none
[16:10] Dahlia Trimble that can take a lot of one's time Falcom ;)
[16:10] any1 Gynoid well done Lorca! wooot!
[16:10] TriJin Bade IOL is full of city build and a few NPCs using tradional phys
[16:10] Mæstro Linden (maestro.linden) Trijin, have you tried optimizing the region for pathfinding yet?
[16:10] Mæstro Linden (maestro.linden) in other words, setting objects to not be movable obstacles?
[16:10] Lorca Linden for isle of legacies, i strongly reccomend looking at the pathfinding user guides
[16:11] Lorca Linden my guess is you have a lot of objects set to dynamic obstacle
[16:11] TriJin Bade I wanted "1891" on the PF channel, but you placed IOL on instead... comm mix up
[16:11] Lorca Linden it is a common and easily fixed problem
[16:11] Lorca Linden @trijin, my understanding was that 1891 had switched region owners and wanted to be moved off the channel
[16:11] Lorca Linden is that mistaken?
[16:11] TriJin Bade but I'll use IOL instead of 1891. In IOL, there's no PF objects setup yet.
[16:12] TriJin Bade Yup, that's a mistake, Lorca
[16:12] Falcon Linden Lorca: mind if I switch to a couple technical topics?
[16:12] NeoBokrug Elytis Is the aim of pathfinding to be for regions that were build with pathfinding in mind, or for all regions on the grid?
[16:12] Lorca Linden sure, go for it falcon
[16:12] Falcon Linden neobokrug: eventually all regions, but it will likely require users to do a little work initially to keep performance up
[16:12] Lorca Linden 1 sec let me answer neobokrug's question first
[16:12] Falcon Linden Lorca: beat you to it
[16:12] Lorca Linden ;)
[16:12] Falcon Linden So:
[16:13] Falcon Linden 1) I'm going to be making a couple "breaking" changes to the pathfinding lsl API in the next couple days. Just two minors ones
[16:13] TriJin Bade o-O
[16:13] Falcon Linden (a) llWanderWithin will start taking a vector instead of a float to specify the extents in which to wander
[16:13] Vincent Nacon nice
[16:13] TriJin Bade love it
[16:13] Falcon Linden that may break any characters that use it...not sure, might be able to handle that, but new characters won't compile unless they use the vector
[16:13] Moundsa Mayo And .z is unused - so far ...
[16:13] Ima Mechanique will that be for opposit corneres of the area?
[16:13] Falcon Linden Moundsa: z is used.
[16:14] Moundsa Mayo Cool!
[16:14] Mæstro Linden (maestro.linden) Oh wow, IOL has 3352 movable obstacles
[16:14] Falcon Linden Ima: it'll be the extents of the area along X, Y, and Z
[16:14] Falcon Linden Moundsa: it's used to, e.g., include parts of the upstairs and downstairs of your house
[16:14] Falcon Linden or just the downstairs
[16:14] Falcon Linden (b) CHARACTER_MAX_TURN_SPEED will be renamed to more accurately reflect what it does. CHARACTER_DESIRED_TURN_SPEED
[16:14] Ima Mechanique k, II'll have to update LSLE's syntax again
[16:14] TriJin Bade Maestro, that's cos I haven't worked on IOL. But will test on that instead now
[16:15] Falcon Linden Ima: could you update ours while you're at it? :)
[16:15] Lorca Linden if you want 1891 on trijin, I can move that in the next batch
[16:15] Moundsa Mayo Flacon, if navmesh hits the .z celing, then path would end there?
[16:15] TriJin Bade Yup, that would help cos of the city scape
[16:15] Moundsa Mayo [Falcon]
[16:15] Lorca Linden added to the my list
[16:15] Ima Mechanique what do you mean by your's? the wiki or the viewer file?
[16:15] xstorm Radek ? that path system can be used on the sl trains ?
[16:15] Falcon Linden ima: the viewer file :)
[16:15] Mæstro Linden (maestro.linden) Yes, probably 99% of those movable obstacles can probably be set to a static obstacle or walkable
[16:15] Ima Mechanique I'll be updating my LLSD version of it, yes
[16:16] Falcon Linden xstorm: depends on whether you want your trains to dodge things on the tracks...probably not, so I'd suggest keyframed motion
[16:16] Falcon Linden Ima: submit it as an open source patch to SnowGlobe
[16:16] Moundsa Mayo Or at point where character height hit .z?
[16:16] TriJin Bade Yeah, which leads me to UI improvements. But that can wait until I compile a list
[16:16] Falcon Linden Moundsa: have you used the pathfinding viewer yet?
[16:16] Lorca Linden dynamic obstacle is much more expensive than static obstacle on the server side. Most objects can be set to static (any that don't actually move), making this change resolves the majority of performance problems we have seen when moving a region over to pathfinding.
[16:16] Ima Mechanique Falcon, I'm working on the editor syntax highlighting changes
[16:16] Ima Mechanique Oz doesn't want a atch to the old/current system
[16:16] Falcon Linden Ima: I know. Our viewer has a file that defines syntax highlighting, that we haven't had a chance to update yet
[16:17] Falcon Linden eh?
[16:17] Falcon Linden oh
[16:17] Falcon Linden *shrugs* okay
[16:17] TriJin Bade By default, all objects should then be Static, on the change over.
[16:17] Lorca Linden well trijin, that's a tricky question
[16:17] Falcon Linden Trijin: that's a complicated issue
[16:17] Moundsa Mayo Yah, have started converting a Locomotive to try to use PF. More as a learning tool than a finsihed product B^D
[16:17] Falcon Linden heh
[16:17] Lorca Linden that we would like the imput of this group about
[16:17] Stinson Linden Falcon, incorrect. Andrew updated the viewer syntax file.
[16:17] Falcon Linden Stinson: completely?
[16:17] Falcon Linden because I thought it was still missing some stuff
[16:17] Stinson Linden Define completely?
[16:17] xstorm Radek what about all of them ann otool cars and trucks that be perfect no ?
[16:17] TriJin Bade Perhaps a one time batch convertor that you can give to EMs and owners
[16:17] Falcon Linden all pathfinding related constants and methods
[16:17] Mæstro Linden (maestro.linden) Yeah, it's still missing some functions/constants
[16:18] Jonathan Yap Stinson, did he update the viewer side of it too?
[16:18] Falcon Linden he started work on it but had to move on
[16:18] Ima Mechanique not completely, I sent Andrew some more stuff for it
[16:18] Stinson Linden I thought so, but that was a week or two ago, so maybe out of date again.
[16:18] Rex Cronon would the locomotive jump the tracks if it finds the wrong path to destination?
[16:18] Falcon Linden rex: if you use the materials carefully, no
[16:18] Falcon Linden but I really don't think a train is going to behave the way you want with pathfinding
[16:18] Ima Mechanique Jonathon, yes he did
[16:18] Moundsa Mayo Yup, Rex - depending on how PF is set up, and the trackbed and Guides, and, and ...
[16:18] Falcon Linden it's not meant for vehicles on tracks. that's what keyframed motion is for
[16:18] Lorca Linden setting all objects to static as default is definitely the best option as far as performance is concerned. HOWEVER, that means people will be unable to move those objects without changing modes first
[16:18] any1 Gynoid agreed
[16:19] Lorca Linden we are currently trying to decide on the best approach for launch
[16:19] Jonathan Yap To "change mode" will you have to be running a PF viewer?
[16:19] Hyper (hyper.mole) until pathfiding is in the main viewer, that's a bad choice
[16:19] Mæstro Linden (maestro.linden) Especially for scripted objects, this could cause them to become broken permanently (depending on how the script is set up)
[16:19] TriJin Bade I would imagine, people would complain more about lag than having to switch modes
[16:19] Mæstro Linden (maestro.linden) No, there's a Region Debug Console command to freeze/unfreeze, Jonathan
[16:19] Moundsa Mayo I'd have jumped on KFM stat if it included physical motion. But first things first.
[16:19] xstorm Radek around 12 is a good time ;) sorry old joke
[16:19] Hyper (hyper.mole) htey'll complain about not being able to move anything
[16:19] Falcon Linden maestro: actually, there is
[16:19] Falcon Linden I just don't know what it is
[16:19] Mæstro Linden (maestro.linden) But that's a bit complicated for most users
[16:19] NeoBokrug Elytis Another estate related question. On the big switch, if I have residents who have a parcel of land, will anyone be able to unlock the nav mesh? Or will it be per parcel?
[16:20] Rex Cronon how would scripted objects become broken permanently?
[16:20] Falcon Linden maestro: whoops, sorry, didn't clarify
[16:20] Falcon Linden Rex: (a) we'd only default unscripted objects this way
[16:20] draconis.neurocam (draconis.neurocam) i really wish there was some sort of documentation for all of the region debug console options
[16:20] Falcon Linden draconis: open the console and type "help"
[16:20] Falcon Linden :)
[16:20] draconis.neurocam (draconis.neurocam) fair enough
[16:20] TriJin Bade i thought there was a wiki page for console cmds?
[16:20] Vincent Nacon muhaha!
[16:20] Rex Cronon there should be a BIG warning: don't do this and that unless u want to bork your things
[16:21] Falcon Linden trijin: no, because they can change at a developer's whim
[16:21] Moundsa Mayo Then put that list in Wiki for the rest of os, Draconis B^D
[16:21] Mæstro Linden (maestro.linden) Rex: well, if prim movement fails and the script assumes that the prim movement succeeded, it could lose state and do screwy stuff
[16:21] Moundsa Mayo [us]
[16:21] draconis.neurocam (draconis.neurocam) i might just moundsa
[16:21] Moundsa Mayo Sweet. Thanks!
[16:21] Mæstro Linden (maestro.linden) it's kind of an edge case, but it's possible
[16:22] Falcon Linden Moving on
[16:22] Falcon Linden Parcel boundary rules
[16:22] Falcon Linden They /almost/ made it into the version we released today
[16:22] Sylver Bu haaa you and your god tp powers.
[16:22] any1 Gynoid seems to me... there is no security in PF.... I can delete anybody's characters and they can delete mine.. .. with PF viewer.... you can't release until that's resolved
[16:22] Falcon Linden actually, they did make it in, but it only works for the first parcel on the region. :P
[16:22] NeoBokrug Elytis Haha
[16:22] Falcon Linden any1: if that's true, that's a bug that needs to be reported
[16:22] Vincent Nacon is that why PathTest1 is missing?
[16:22] Falcon Linden any1: only EMs and creators should be able to delete
[16:22] Dahlia Trimble which parcel is first?
[16:22] Hyper (hyper.mole) you cannot see characters in tools unless you have perms to them
[16:22] Falcon Linden dahlia: I have no idea
[16:22] Falcon Linden dahlia: it was a bug
[16:22] Jonathan Yap Vincent, PathTest1 is in a crash loop
[16:23] TriJin Bade does the parcel boundary work at any height, or stops at say 5k Z
[16:23] Vincent Nacon I know, I was joking
[16:23] Falcon Linden the parcel boundaries go from 0 to 4096m
[16:23] Falcon Linden But there are some caveats
[16:23] Falcon Linden Here's how it works
[16:23] Falcon Linden (1) If your parcel does not allow everyone's scripts OR does not allow everyone's objects to enter, it will be considered isolated which means:
[16:24] Falcon Linden (2) Essentially, very thin exclusion volumes will be placed along its borders from 0 to 4096m.
[16:24] Falcon Linden This will prevent characters from willfully pathing into or out of such a parcel
[16:24] Falcon Linden however, it will not prevent characters from crossing if:
[16:24] Falcon Linden (a) they are pushed there by something physical (including an avatar or other character)
[16:24] any1 Gynoid invisible fence woof woof!
[16:25] Falcon Linden (b) they may punch through during certain pursuit maneuvers
[16:25] TriJin Bade electric invisible fence MUAHAHAHA
[16:25] Falcon Linden (c) llNavigateTo FORCE_DIRECT_PATH will completely ignore the boundaries
[16:25] Vincent Nacon how does it treat with encroachment return?
[16:25] Mæstro Linden (maestro.linden) So in other words, it works like any thin exclusion volume.
[16:25] Falcon Linden also, I'm not 100% sure about what will happen for parcel edges at sim borders.
[16:25] Falcon Linden exactly what maestro just said.
[16:26] Dahlia Trimble now I'll need to make a chained guard dog for my beach house ;)
[16:26] Falcon Linden Full parcels aren't handled. We thought about it and determined it wasn't possible, or at least not practical
[16:26] TriJin Bade will the turning circle take this account, cos sometimes the turns go over edges
[16:26] Falcon Linden trijin: interesting question
[16:26] Falcon Linden here's the deal with that
[16:26] Rex Cronon dahlia. u will need to put static fences:)
[16:27] Falcon Linden right now, actually, I think it will take that into account. But it will do so in an ugly way, with the character instantaneously spinning around
[16:27] TriJin Bade so we have to make sure there's a small buffer zone
[16:27] Dahlia Trimble my beach house is on a sim border so the dog might escape :/
[16:27] Jonathan Yap What happens if a pathfinding agent gets into a noscript parcel via one of those exceptions -- will it becomes stuck?
[16:27] Falcon Linden I was planning to add code that prevents artifact and adheres more closely to the parameters specified
[16:27] xstorm Radek you can have it use the linden lab roads an use the land owner data no ?
[16:27] Falcon Linden I may or may not go through with that
[16:27] NeoBokrug Elytis I think it'll be script brain dead, but still path for whatever it's last command was
[16:28] Mæstro Linden (maestro.linden) It will continue to move, but it could get 'stuck' if the destination is in the no-script parcel, and you wouldn't get a path_update event to handle the next step (since scripts are disabled)
[16:28] Falcon Linden you wouldn't get a destination in a no-script parcel
[16:28] Rex Cronon why don't why call these "characters" ArticficialIntelligenceCharacter(AIC), because each time u say character i think avatar
[16:28] Falcon Linden unless you used FORCE_DIRECT_PATH or pursuit.
[16:28] Falcon Linden Rex: because.
[16:28] Falcon Linden I get to name things.
[16:28] Falcon Linden Not you!
[16:28] Falcon Linden ...
[16:28] xstorm Radek lol
[16:28] Lorca Linden I thought I got to name things.... ;)
[16:28] TriJin Bade ROFL
[16:29] Falcon Linden And if it were up to me, we'd rename "physical" --> "dynamic"
[16:29] Rex Cronon why don't u*
[16:29] TriJin Bade All hail, Falcon... King of names
[16:29] Falcon Linden "phantom" to "terrain collisions only"
[16:29] Vincent Nacon Rex, it implies future features
[16:29] Sandry Logan Falcon, would it be possible to get a STAY_WITHIN_PARCEL flag as suggested in PATHBUG-28 ? i'm thinking of characters as pets and not straying into the neighbours gardens and the like
[16:29] Jira Helper [#PATHBUG-28] New option STAY_WITHIN_PARCEL for CreateCharacter and UpdateCharacter https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/PATHBUG-28
[16:29] Falcon Linden and "volume detect" to "horribly inefficient"
[16:29] Falcon Linden err
[16:29] Falcon Linden I mean
[16:29] Falcon Linden ...
[16:29] Falcon Linden Sandry: it's on the backlog, but no promises about when
[16:29] Sylver Bu lol//
[16:29] Sandry Logan ok
[16:29] xstorm Radek falcon what about your own name did you pick Linden ?
[16:29] Falcon Linden and if we do implement it, it will have some caveats
[16:29] Falcon Linden xstorm: Did you?
[16:29] Rex Cronon i thought u at least took sugestions under consideration:)
[16:30] xstorm Radek got me
[16:30] Falcon Linden I do. But not in this case, because there were reasons decided months ago that I'm too lazy to rehash now
[16:30] Falcon Linden Moving on once again
[16:30] Falcon Linden I've noticed a distinct lack of participation in PATHBUG-95 and -96
[16:30] Jira Helper [#PATHBUG-95] Suggested Character Height https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/PATHBUG-95
[16:30] Falcon Linden the suggested character types and heights
[16:30] Mæstro Linden (maestro.linden) pathbug-96
[16:30] Jira Helper [#PATHBUG-96] Suggested Character Types https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/PATHBUG-96
[16:31] Lorca Linden yes, thank you for calling that out falcon, this is important stuff all
[16:31] Falcon Linden If we don't get good feedback in the next week, I'm going to pick values with a random number generator
[16:31] Lorca Linden if you don't help us pick values, WE will pick them ourselves
[16:31] Falcon Linden for the names, I'll map integers to dictionary words.
[16:31] Vincent Nacon muhaha! oy
[16:31] Falcon Linden So "A" might be for "fungible" and "B" might be for "Zoology"
[16:31] Lorca Linden we have to make this decision soon, we would like resident feedback on it
[16:31] Falcon Linden And while entertaining, that probably won't be useful
[16:31] Vincent Nacon it won't
[16:32] Moundsa Mayo There will still be complaints about the selections even years later B^D
[16:32] Dahlia Trimble names like "shrimp" and "godzilla" ?
[16:32] Motor Loon There's always the chance that the random numbers will be spot on °͜°
[16:32] Sandry Logan /me promises to consider and comment on character height
[16:32] Vincent Nacon now how about some waypoints info? SCR-315
[16:32] Jira Helper [#SCR-315] return list with waypoint in pathfinding_event https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SCR-315
[16:32] Falcon Linden Vincent: can't be done
[16:32] Falcon Linden the waypoints may not be valid by the time you use them
[16:32] Vincent Nacon but you said it could
[16:32] Falcon Linden I lied.
[16:32] Falcon Linden :P
[16:32] Motor Loon haha
[16:32] Vincent Nacon damn
[16:32] Falcon Linden Okay, it /could/ be done. But it would take a chunk of time to provide you with continuous updates about path changes
[16:33] Falcon Linden so it could only really work in the case of a region where things didn't change much
[16:33] Falcon Linden The problem is that if we released the method, people wouldn't accept that
[16:33] Dahlia Trimble why cant we just specify a height and leave out all the character height stuffs?
[16:33] Falcon Linden instead, you'd all start writing scripts that spammed llGetWaypoints() calls in a tight loop hoping to catch changes.
[16:33] Vincent Nacon maybe instead of the whole list of waypoint, just the first waypoint?
[16:33] Falcon Linden And I can't have that. So no. :)
[16:33] Lorca Linden @moundsa yes people will complain for whatever we chose for the A-D values, but if we get feedback from Residents in making this decision then we will have someone to blame ;)
[16:33] Moundsa Mayo Falcon chooses the names, he lies, he makes arbitrary linkages between integers and words - he's the Shadow Government! AHHHH!!!
[16:33] Falcon Linden Vincent: and what if that part of the path gets blocked?
[16:33] TriJin Bade 95% of the objects ona region, don't change often anyway
[16:34] Lorca Linden in serious, though, we epecially need feedback on default height values
[16:34] Vincent Nacon let the scripter worry about that
[16:34] Falcon Linden Dahlia: highly technical reasons about how the system works
[16:34] Falcon Linden Vincent: nope. Because it will come back to me as a griefer issue or a performance problem
[16:34] Falcon Linden they'll spam.
[16:34] Falcon Linden spammy spam spam spam.
[16:34] Dahlia Trimble I like technical reasons :D
[16:34] Falcon Linden And I don't like that.
[16:34] Vincent Nacon I was hoping for at least some "decent" idea of where the characater gonna go before it start
[16:34] Falcon Linden Dahlia: the navmesh is cut for a particular height character and the dataformat and search algorithm do not support multiple heights
[16:34] Falcon Linden dahlia: so it will only be correct for the height it was built with
[16:35] Motor Loon speaking of spam... for gods sake start using llCollisionSound("",0);
[16:35] Moundsa Mayo I thought i heard this mentioned, or saw it flash by in wiki: How will HORIZONTAL character orientation relate to CHARACTER_HEIGHT?
[16:35] Falcon Linden Vincent: hmm, maybe I'm not understanding you
[16:35] xstorm Radek thank you Falcon on that griefer note :)
[16:35] Dahlia Trimble and there are 4 navmeshes?
[16:35] Falcon Linden moundsa: height becomes length
[16:35] Falcon Linden dahlia: no, just one
[16:35] Falcon Linden height != A/B/C/D
[16:35] Falcon Linden those are two orthogonal categories
[16:35] xstorm Radek one less worrie
[16:35] Falcon Linden A/B/C/D has to do with how fast something moves on a particular surface and how likely it is to prefer to walk on that surface
[16:35] Moundsa Mayo Thanks, Falcon.
[16:36] Sylver Bu (I'd love to hang and listen but I'm needed over on Agni... thanks again for the invite lorca.. bye for now everyone :) )
[16:36] Falcon Linden think of road vs. grass and cars vs. horses. We'll get some docs up on that at some point. Might be better to do that soon, but it's not as critical as the height issue
[16:36] Lorca Linden cya later sylver
[16:36] any1 Gynoid I have a question...
[16:36] any1 Gynoid I would like to ask about the egregious defect introduced in the rollout yesterday… that basically puts all prim animators out of business if they want to use the PF capabilities... the llSetPrimitiveParams [ PRIM_ROTATION ] Broken PathBug-109 and 110.... for us... you have stopped our show. with this bug... I've put everything at NCI on hold until we hear a way forward....
[16:36] Jira Helper [#PATHBUG-109] llSetPrimitiveParams [ PRIM_ROTATION ] Broken https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/PATHBUG-109
[16:36] Falcon Linden any1: it's a bug, not intended behavior
[16:37] TriJin Bade How about the "tilt" of a character as it walks up ramps. Bipedal type would be straight but quad type like dogs etc, would "tilt". Is that something we can expect?
[16:37] Falcon Linden trijin: character type horizontal will tilt
[16:37] TriJin Bade awesome
[16:37] Lorca Linden we are in beta, some bugs are to be expected @ this point
[16:37] Falcon Linden and for small objects like dogs, it shouldn't have too many behavioral artifacts
[16:37] TriJin Bade Appreciated... and has come along way so far... so good
[16:38] Falcon Linden But seriously.
[16:38] Falcon Linden We need height feedback.
[16:38] Falcon Linden maybe I'll just choose 1cm if we don't get any feedback. Then nothing will work :)
[16:38] Lorca Linden very much so, please help us make the best decision on this
[16:38] Falcon Linden Or 100m.
[16:38] TriJin Bade I can work on that. There are several sewers for small height and streets to test on
[16:38] Falcon Linden Or something.
[16:38] Vincent Nacon for animals, heights are random based on type but as for human... SL's scale is kinda screwed
[16:39] Falcon Linden that's exactly the problem
[16:39] any1 Gynoid imho.. the PF team has done a marvelous job mobilizing cubes... but you'all need to expand your regressing testing to include prim-animated characters.. e.g. critters with legs and human NPCs
[16:39] Vincent Nacon so... whatever the max height avatar can go... set that limit
[16:39] Falcon Linden any1: actually, it was detected before your report
[16:39] Falcon Linden we chose to do this deploy with it anyway
[16:39] Falcon Linden rather than delay
[16:39] TriJin Bade problem is, with mesh avi, the height is 60 meters :P
[16:39] Vincent Nacon um..
[16:39] Falcon Linden trijin: well, we'd use the physics height
[16:40] Falcon Linden but the thing is, that height is pretty high. It would mean pets would never, for example, go under a table
[16:40] TriJin Bade yup. 2 meter max i say
[16:40] Dahlia Trimble I noticed when I made a ramp that the ground navmesh excluded a portion under the ramp until it reached a certain height, roughly 2 meters or so. Is this effect related to your height request?
[16:40] Rex Cronon can't u have two values for height. the max and the min?
[16:40] Moundsa Mayo Well, at least 40 meters for the longest locomotives B^D
[16:40] Vincent Nacon I believe the max height is around 2.5 meter
[16:40] Falcon Linden dahlia: yes, it is
[16:40] Vincent Nacon or 9 foot
[16:40] Falcon Linden right now I think it's 1.8 or 1.4m
[16:40] Falcon Linden moundsa: height in this case really refers to vertical height only
[16:40] Falcon Linden which would be 2*radius for horizontal characters
[16:40] Moundsa Mayo OK, Falcon, I'll need to go test some.
[16:41] Moundsa Mayo I misunderstood the HRIZONTAL aspect of things
[16:41] Lorca Linden before I forget, I'd like to make an announcement and ask a question. Announcement first : for those of you who have not me ther yet, please meet Hyper mole
[16:41] Falcon Linden yeah, we need to get some more docs with pictures
[16:41] Lorca Linden hyper is our quasi-official ambassador of pathfinding
[16:41] TriJin Bade /me waves a greeting at Hyper
[16:41] Rex Cronon hi hyper
[16:41] Hyper (hyper.mole) /me waves
[16:41] MaV (matu) Hello
[16:41] Gooden Uggla hiya Hyper
[16:41] Moundsa Mayo I was figuring to set the locomotive to HORIZONTAL, and the RADIUS to get the desired travel distance from navmesh
[16:41] Lorca Linden she was one of the key moles in helping build the wilderness and is very familiar with the pathfinding tools and with common problems encountered with setting up existing content to work with pathfinding
[16:41] Sandry Logan hi Hyper :c)
[16:41] Hyper (hyper.mole) I'm working on docs Falcon
[16:42] Vincent Nacon I've noticed the last name
[16:42] Falcon Linden hyper: I know. But you can't make the pictures we can. :) I'll try to get you some.
[16:42] Dahlia Trimble Hy Hiper :)
[16:42] Lorca Linden please feel free to IM her in world or ask her to help with your pathfinding prolbems, she's a great help along those lines and saved us many headaches in the Wilderness project
[16:42] Hyper (hyper.mole) Do Falcon, that would be great.
[16:42] Hyper (hyper.mole) Defintely let me know if you need assistance
[16:42] Lorca Linden secondly, how many of you have been playing around with the pathfinding project viewer?
[16:43] Lorca Linden we have seen very few bugs on that front?
[16:43] Sandry Logan yes
[16:43] Vincent Nacon I'm on it now
[16:43] TriJin Bade It is now the only viewer I run
[16:43] Lorca Linden do any of you have questions about the viewer tools, because we have stinson here to answer them. He was one of the two main developers who made the viewer tools for pathfinding
[16:43] Moundsa Mayo Only for three days, now, but for long hours.
[16:43] Lorca Linden also, please excuse the bad grammer in my chat texts ;)
[16:43] Falcon Linden "grammer"
[16:43] MaV (matu) I have seen recently the viewer freezing while downloading the navmesh
[16:43] Moundsa Mayo that's speeeellllling
[16:44] TriJin Bade I've not had any crashes.... yet.
[16:44] Rex Cronon is there a user manual for the pathfinding gui?
[16:44] Lorca Linden <------ is extremely dependent on spell check
[16:44] Lorca Linden yes there is rex!
[16:44] Rex Cronon link please
[16:44] Vincent Nacon I think it would be nice to see Navmesh wasn't so Soild, have some transparency to see what's behind it
[16:44] Moundsa Mayo I just use the builin typo generator on my keyboard.
[16:44] Stinson Linden MaV ... please define freezing. Do you mean pausing for a bit and then continuing? Or do you mean locking?
[16:44] Falcon Linden Vincent: turn on the X-ray view
[16:44] Mæstro Linden (maestro.linden) Have you tried X-ray mode, Vincent?
[16:44] Hyper (hyper.mole) we do have that Vincent
[16:44] Vincent Nacon uhh... no?
[16:44] Mæstro Linden (maestro.linden) update your viewer?
[16:44] draconis.neurocam (draconis.neurocam) i really think the issue with height in sl has had something to do with cameraoffsetrearview's z value defaulted .75, so people always end up looking down all the time, so they make themselves smaller, if it was 0 and set at eye level people would never have to build larger then their avatar for doors and ceilings
[16:44] Lorca Linden check out the main page, it has the viewer links : http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Pathfinding_in_Second_Life
[16:44] Vincent Nacon where is that?
[16:44] Lorca Linden there are also transcripts of these meetings there
[16:45] MaV (matu) Locking, not able to do anything for a some seconds
[16:45] Falcon Linden vincent: same place you can toggle the navmesh on and off. It's at the bottom
[16:45] Lorca Linden the viewer page is here : http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Pathfinding_Tools_in_the_Second_Life_Viewer
[16:45] Mæstro Linden (maestro.linden) in the Pathfinding Edit/Test floater, just below "Water Plane"
[16:45] Vincent Nacon time to update then
[16:45] Stinson Linden MaV ... are you on the latest viewer? Which version?
[16:45] draconis.neurocam (draconis.neurocam) err larger
[16:45] draconis.neurocam (draconis.neurocam) not smaller
[16:45] MaV (matu) hmmm, there is a new one? :P
[16:45] Moundsa Mayo 3.3.2 is current?
[16:45] Rex Cronon thank u
[16:45] Falcon Linden lorca: looks like you missed last week's transcript, btw
[16:45] Stinson Linden MaV ... We have made improvements in the latest that should eliminate that pause.
[16:45] Mæstro Linden (maestro.linden) you have to get more precise than that
[16:45] Mæstro Linden (maestro.linden) Second Life 3.3.2 (255474) May 2 2012 08:49:58 (Project Viewer - Pathfinding) is what I hvae
[16:45] Mæstro Linden (maestro.linden) there's probably a new build from today as well
[16:46] MaV (matu) Second Life 3.3.2 (252475) Mar 29 2012 15:23:48 (Project Viewer - Pathfinding)
[16:46] Dahlia Trimble when was latest released?
[16:46] Falcon Linden there are no builds about every other day right now
[16:46] Falcon Linden new*
[16:46] Lorca Linden oh i did the week before instead, dang it sorry
[16:46] Moundsa Mayo Second Life 3.3.2 (252475) Mar 29 2012 15:23:48 (Project Viewer - Pathfinding)
[16:46] Falcon Linden lorca: put both :)
[16:46] MaV (matu) i'll download the latest and see what happens later :)
[16:46] Mæstro Linden (maestro.linden) http://automated-builds-secondlife-com.s3.amazonaws.com/hg/repo/viewer-pathfinding/latest.html << link to the latest viewer
[16:46] any1 Gynoid same build.. too
[16:46] xstorm Radek can this system be used later on for ballon rides ?
[16:47] Stinson Linden MaV ... latest should be 3.3.2.255450
[16:47] Stinson Linden http://automated-builds-secondlife-com.s3.amazonaws.com/hg/repo/viewer-pathfinding/rev/255450/index.html
[16:47] Falcon Linden xstorm: no, it doesn't support volumetric pathfinding right now
[16:47] MaV (matu) thanks
[16:47] Stinson Linden And Maestro's link will keep you up to date automatically with the latest.
[16:47] Vincent Nacon oh that reminds me..
[16:47] Falcon Linden though that's an interesting suggestion, because if we did add support for volumetric pathfinding, balloons would be the best-handled case
[16:47] xstorm Radek ok thanks
[16:47] Lorca Linden actually, I think those are last week's transcripts, I just put the wrong date on them. will fix that
[16:47] Falcon Linden Lorca: in that case, post 4/19's transcripts :)
[16:47] TriJin Bade I long for the day of volumetric rendered objects... WOOOO clouds
[16:47] Lorca Linden anyways, does anyone have a question for stinson?
[16:47] Lorca Linden about the viewer tools?
[16:48] Lorca Linden they are an important part of pathfinding ;)
[16:48] Falcon Linden Trijin: I long for the day when turning on wireframe in a typical SL region with some avatars around doesn't appear solid black :)
[16:48] TriJin Bade Not Qs atm
[16:48] Vincent Nacon is it possible to have character set to limited zone based on the shape of a prim?
[16:48] TriJin Bade lol @ falcon
[16:48] xstorm Radek yes clouds and air crafts like hot air systms
[16:48] Vincent Nacon like volume area I guess
[16:48] xstorm Radek itbe very interesting
[16:48] Falcon Linden vincent: you could....probably using a prim or set of prims as material volumes and setting the walkability to 0 except for in the material volume which you'd set to 100...
[16:48] Mæstro Linden (maestro.linden) You can set up exclusion volumes to pen in characters
[16:48] Falcon Linden play around.
[16:48] Dahlia Trimble I'm sure I'll have lots of questions for Stinson that he may not want to answer ;)
[16:49] Falcon Linden or what maestro said, but exclusion volumes are non-specific
[16:49] Mæstro Linden (maestro.linden) or a material volume that's 0% walkable for a certain type, and only have that particular character set to the restricted type
[16:49] Vincent Nacon hmm
[16:49] Falcon Linden we really need to get some visual docs around walkability up...
[16:49] Falcon Linden that's definitely the most confusing thing in pathfinding
[16:49] Hyper (hyper.mole) was workign on that today
[16:49] TriJin Bade ah, that reminds me... walkable areas linked to specific sounds... that would be useful. Not the object material but linked to a UUID of a sound.
[16:50] Falcon Linden trijin: I don't know what you mean
[16:50] Rex Cronon why not add a tab to the build object dialog so that u can set the patfindin properties from there?
[16:50] Falcon Linden rex: don't get me started on that.
[16:50] xstorm Radek play UUID from assets ?
[16:50] Jonathan Yap Rex, the build floater is overdue to be overhauled
[16:50] xstorm Radek why ?
[16:50] Lorca Linden the docs are still a WIP, but they are still quite helpful
[16:50] Vincent Nacon Actually... Rex does have a good point there
[16:50] Lorca Linden we will be adding to them and polishing them before launch
[16:50] Falcon Linden trijin: what do you mean about UUIDs?
[16:50] TriJin Bade defining a sound to a walkable... like a path.. would be stone sound on collision. or wood fence... on grass would be crunching sound.
[16:51] Falcon Linden yeah, that wouldn't work
[16:51] TriJin Bade I mean to use a UUID of a sound asset rather than a stock one
[16:51] Falcon Linden wait, you can do that
[16:51] Falcon Linden err
[16:51] TriJin Bade you can?
[16:51] Falcon Linden if you mean "I want to override collision sounds on an object"
[16:51] Falcon Linden you can
[16:51] xstorm Radek OMG please no calls to the UUID that way please
[16:51] Motor Loon llCollisionSound(uuid,voolume);
[16:52] Vincent Nacon wasn't that broken?
[16:52] TriJin Bade that was broken for a long time
[16:52] Vincent Nacon yeah
[16:52] Falcon Linden llCollisionSound(uuid, volume)?
[16:52] Vincent Nacon yup
[16:52] Falcon Linden I didn't know such a thing ever existed
[16:52] Falcon Linden that was a crazy idea
[16:52] Ima Mechanique Isn't CollisionSound for the avatar?
[16:52] Vincent Nacon muhaha!
[16:52] Falcon Linden ohhh
[16:52] Motor Loon http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/LlCollisionSound
[16:52] Falcon Linden "impact volume"
[16:52] Motor Loon ,-)
[16:52] Falcon Linden not volume as in a space
[16:52] Falcon Linden I thought that was a different function
[16:52] Lorca Linden lol
[16:52] Falcon Linden llCollisionSound still works, doesn't it, maestro?
[16:52] draconis.neurocam (draconis.neurocam) collision sounds work
[16:52] Motor Loon works fine
[16:52] Falcon Linden I just had to fight with the code that does it
[16:52] TriJin Bade i'll give it another go. not used it for a over a year
[16:52] Falcon Linden yeah
[16:52] xstorm Radek please no
[16:52] draconis.neurocam (draconis.neurocam) collision particles are broken
[16:53] Falcon Linden yes, llCollisionSprite was removed years ago
[16:53] Vincent Nacon oh yeah...
[16:53] Vincent Nacon my bad
[16:53] Vincent Nacon no wait...
[16:53] Mæstro Linden (maestro.linden) llCollisionSound still works, as far as I know
[16:53] Motor Loon it does
[16:53] draconis.neurocam (draconis.neurocam) it does i just used it the other day
[16:53] TriJin Bade awesome :)
[16:53] Mæstro Linden (maestro.linden) we did tweak the collision sounds of characters when you bump into them or drop them, though
[16:53] xstorm Radek please keep it removed
[16:53] Vincent Nacon I seem to recall it wasn't working recently on my derby demo car project
[16:53] Mæstro Linden (maestro.linden) (actually, I think we tweaked it for all physical objects inworld)
[16:53] Vincent Nacon but oh well
[16:53] Falcon Linden vincent: then build it better :)
[16:54] Vincent Nacon I did
[16:54] Mæstro Linden (maestro.linden) there was an issue where you'd hear repeated collision sounds if your avatar walked into a wall or something similar
[16:54] Mæstro Linden (maestro.linden) which is fixed now
[16:54] draconis.neurocam (draconis.neurocam) right
[16:54] TriJin Bade yup, then it hit goo area and spammed the debug channel
[16:54] xstorm Radek ? its been fix
[16:54] xstorm Radek thats great
[16:55] Vincent Nacon ok Maestro, I think that might have been the issue
[16:55] xstorm Radek yes grey goo bad dreams from that
[16:55] TriJin Bade however... there's no colliosion for water sounds. That would be helpful to detect hit on water surface without resorting to water level
[16:55] TriJin Bade collision**
[16:55] Falcon Linden you're using collision sounds to detect hits?
[16:55] Vincent Nacon water is missing other physic stuff like... welll I'll let you figure that one
[16:56] Falcon Linden how does that work...
[16:56] Mæstro Linden (maestro.linden) yeah, that would be kinda cool..
[16:56] Mæstro Linden (maestro.linden) well, if you're talking about a bullet
[16:56] Lorca Linden 5 minute warning all
[16:56] Falcon Linden 4 minutes, actually
[16:56] Lorca Linden so by next meeting, please have some suggestions about default height
[16:56] xstorm Radek water physics :S
[16:56] Mæstro Linden (maestro.linden) you could predict it's trajectory and then use llTarget() with like a 2m tolerance around where you expect it to hit the water
[16:56] Falcon Linden xstorm: I wrote a water simulator once. It was fun.
[16:56] Mæstro Linden (maestro.linden) and then play a sound when at_target triggers
[16:56] Sandry Logan lorca, we're meeant ot make those on the JIRA, right?
[16:56] Mæstro Linden (maestro.linden) it would be kind of laggy though, but that's what you're asking for :)
[16:56] xstorm Radek your killing me
[16:57] Falcon Linden or place a volume detect plane at the water surface
[16:57] Vincent Nacon if prim could float based on their density less than 1000
[16:57] Moundsa Mayo xatorm, I have a beachball vehicle that works with Linden water fairly well B^D
[16:57] Motor Loon wait... falcon wants us to use volumedetect? woow...
[16:57] Lorca Linden yup Sandry, though I'd like to discuss at the next user group. Our window to make that decision is quickly closing
[16:57] Moundsa Mayo Farther you pull it under, the higher it pos up above the surface
[16:57] Vincent Nacon ban Falcon!
[16:57] Falcon Linden a plane at the water surface is simple. And it does what you want: it detects collisions and reports them.
[16:57] TriJin Bade k, priority testing is character height and UI notes. gotcha
[16:57] xstorm Radek new physics attacks i can see will happen again i bet
[16:57] Vincent Nacon uh... Falcon, there's a function for water height
[16:58] Vincent Nacon no need for volume detect
[16:58] Falcon Linden vincent: yes, but you'd have to poll to use it
[16:58] Falcon Linden which is lame.
[16:58] Moundsa Mayo yah, no 'breach' event
[16:58] Vincent Nacon er... well depends on what script it is
[16:58] Falcon Linden Moundsa: the solution to what you describe is to remove some energy when crossing the water surface.
[16:58] Motor Loon depends if you want the object that hits the water to make to sound... it the "water itself" to make it
[16:58] Vincent Nacon vehicle... no brainer...
[16:59] Vincent Nacon avatar's AO... maybe
[16:59] Falcon Linden Motor: why not just make it the water? Fewer things.
[16:59] Falcon Linden Or can you not set a sound offset?
[16:59] Motor Loon indeed
[16:59] Falcon Linden oy
[16:59] Falcon Linden All right. Now I'm sad, so I'm leaving. :P
[16:59] Falcon Linden See you all next week!
[16:59] TriJin Bade LOL
[16:59] Motor Loon aww
[16:59] Moundsa Mayo Sure, motor - sound localized to object/water interaction, so OK if the beachball makes the splash.
[16:59] xstorm Radek you know may be the path system can be used to update the region logs faster when reporting offline regions hhhmmm
[16:59] draconis.neurocam (draconis.neurocam) yeah theres llwater, and llsethoverheight, and llgroundrepel all have water detection built in
[16:59] Vincent Nacon fine! leave!
[16:59] Vincent Nacon :P
[16:59] TriJin Bade someone needs a hug
[16:59] Lorca Linden 60 seconds!
[16:59] Falcon Linden lorca, be sure to grab a log because I don't have one
[17:00] any1 Gynoid Congratulations PF Team on Your Successes! Well Done!
[17:00] Falcon Linden or you, maestro.
[17:00] Moundsa Mayo Falcon, Lorca, Maestro, Stinson, Hyper, thanks for your time and hard work!
[17:00] Lorca Linden thanks any1!
[17:00] Vincent Nacon aye
[17:00] Motor Loon /me ties Falcons shoelaces together
[17:00] Lorca Linden we appreciate the kind words
[17:00] Hyper (hyper.mole) thanks!
[17:00] Vincent Nacon take care all
[17:00] Mæstro Linden (maestro.linden) Thanks for coming, everybody!
[17:00] TriJin Bade SL rocks. Lindens rock.. take care everyone and happy buildin
[17:00] Rex Cronon tc everybody
[17:00] Lorca Linden send an email to pathfinding-beta
[17:00] Lorca Linden also, if you have anything particularly cool to show off you are building with PF
[17:00] Sandry Logan bye for now
[17:00] Dahlia Trimble tc all :) *waves*
[17:00] Lorca Linden have a great night all!
[17:00] Rex Cronon have nice day all*
[17:01] Lorca Linden /me vanishes in a puff of smoke
[17:01] Ima Mechanique bye all