Simulator User Group/Transcripts/2012.01.20

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List of Speakers

Andrew Linden Cooper Lapis Davido Chrome
Draconis Neurocam Flip Idlemind Hank Sopwith
Ima Mechanique Jessica Lyon Jonathan Yap
Kadah Coba Keli Kyrie Maggie Darwin
Moundsa Mayo Orion Fhang Raven Juno
Rex Cronon Sahkolihaa Contepomi Sebastean Steamweaver
Shiroyu Takakura Simon Linden Stickman
TankMaster Finesmith Ubit Umarov Vincent Nacon


[16:01] Flip Idlemind: Andrew Linden is here

[16:01] TankMaster Finesmith: howdy andrew!

[16:01] Flip Idlemind: My normal, Fancy Greeter thing isn't working because the internet broke :O

[16:01] Andrew Linden: hello

[16:02] Flip Idlemind: Simon Linden is here

[16:02] Rex Cronon: hello andrew

[16:02] Vincent Nacon: heya

[16:02] Maggie Darwin: Evening, Andrew

[16:02] Vincent Nacon: alright everyone, gather around... Andrew got story telling!

[16:02] Rex Cronon: hey vincent

[16:03] Andrew Linden: Ok so news...

[16:03] Vincent Nacon: wait hold on

[16:03] Vincent Nacon: Simon around?

[16:03] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Yes.

[16:03] Vincent Nacon: :P

[16:03] Simon Linden: yep :)

[16:03] Jonathan Yap: He is next to me

[16:03] Vincent Nacon: ah ok, carry on

[16:03] Andrew Linden: Kelly can't make it today.

[16:03] Rex Cronon: hey simon

[16:03] Ima Mechanique: oh yeah, I see you now. Too many tags floating around ;-)

[16:04] Andrew Linden: There is a bug (or two) in the RC simulator (currently on all RC channels)

[16:04] Vincent Nacon: WAIT!... is Falcon around too?

[16:04] Vincent Nacon: :P

[16:04] Andrew Linden: in the 8-neighbor communication code...

[16:04] Andrew Linden: (which I wrote)

[16:04] Hank Sopwith: Q: Is there any audio? I hear nothing.

[16:04] TankMaster Finesmith: just two? thats gotta be some record :D

[16:04] Vincent Nacon: showstopper?

[16:04] Simon Linden: We just use text, Hank

[16:04] Hank Sopwith: Thanks.

[16:05] Andrew Linden: where the neighbors will relay your presence out further than normal, so you can see into regions that would normally be outside of your field of view (for being too far)

[16:05] TankMaster Finesmith: voice is disabled here anyway

[16:05] Sebastean Steamweaver: This is different...

[16:06] Andrew Linden: They guy who spotted the bug noticed that the bandwidth for a bot of his suddenly jumped with the update

[16:06] Maggie Darwin: Sounds like a performance hit for busy neighborhoods.

[16:06] Andrew Linden: I'll find the number...

[16:06] Rex Cronon: the bot suddenly sees more sims:)

[16:06] Andrew Linden: right

[16:07] Vincent Nacon: so.. what does that means for islands in checkered zones?

[16:07] Andrew Linden: that bug was fixed by Kelly yesterday. it will probably go out into at least one RC next week. Not sure.

[16:07] Andrew Linden: SVC-7613

[16:07] JIRA-helper:

[#SVC-7613] Greatly increased network activity since the 1/18/12 RC channel rolling restart

[16:07] Rex Cronon: if he sets the draw distance to 64m than the bot should see less. right?

[16:08] Simon Linden: That's essentially the bug, Rex

[16:08] Maggie Darwin: Bots don't usually have a draw distance...I'd think.

[16:08] Andrew Linden: no, this relay bug will tell your viewer that a region is within view, when it is not actually

[16:08] Andrew Linden: which means your viewer may connect to that region

[16:08] TankMaster Finesmith: oh fun

[16:09] Andrew Linden: although I dunno if it will actually send any object updates...

[16:09] Vincent Nacon: but not sim in by corners, right?

[16:09] Andrew Linden: since it may figure out that all objects are not visible

[16:09] Jonathan Yap: All that extra traffic he say had to come from something

[16:09] Jonathan Yap: *he saw

[16:09] Andrew Linden: the bot in question was consuming very little bandwidth

[16:10] Andrew Linden: and the jump in bandwidth is vary large, probably because the normal bandwidht conumption was so low

[16:10] Andrew Linden: we looked for overall sudden jump in bandwidth on the RC sim hosts and did not find one

[16:10] Andrew Linden: so I'm guessing that the "problem" isn't actually all that bad for a normal viewer

[16:11] Andrew Linden: maybe a slight bost in total packets

[16:11] Andrew Linden: anyway, that bug has a fix in the works

[16:11] Andrew Linden: there ia another bug where sometimes the corner region is not visible in the RC

[16:11] Andrew Linden: however we're having trouble reproducing that one

[16:12] Andrew Linden: or... we reproduced it and then deployed some debug code to try to help figure out the problem and it went away

[16:12] Vincent Nacon: could be fault issue when draw distance is playing trick on the user?

[16:12] Vincent Nacon: false*

[16:12] Andrew Linden: so I'm still looking for a repro on that one

[16:12] Andrew Linden: I don't see how it could be related to the first bug, but I'm keeping an open mind.

[16:13] Andrew Linden: One more bit of news... on Tuesday the topic came up about uploading BVH animation files

[16:13] Stickman: Yes.

[16:13] Andrew Linden: er... the specific question was: What happens when one tries to upload a BVH for an animation? What happens at the server upload?

[16:14] Jonathan Yap: I think there is some confusion--it was about uploading a .anim file

[16:14] Stickman: Near as I can tell, there's no verification that a valid animation is uploaded. It just accepts it.

[16:14] Vincent Nacon: yeah, not BVH

[16:14] Andrew Linden: Stickman is right.

[16:14] Vincent Nacon: BVH is what we're at in the moment

[16:14] Vincent Nacon: they wanted more options to upload anim and bvh

[16:14] Andrew Linden: Oh sorry, I got that confused.

[16:14] Rex Cronon: how else would all these deformations be possible:)

[16:15] Andrew Linden: Yeah, so uploading a different format that BVH, I guess.

[16:15] Jonathan Yap: So is the idea about directly uploading a .anim not going to be accepted or?

[16:15] Jonathan Yap: The TPVs already do it

[16:15] Andrew Linden: No, but the upload path will accept it. As long at the file isn't too big.

[16:15] Kadah Coba: Doesnt the viewer convert BVH to amin then upload?

[16:16] Vincent Nacon: I just don't see why need anim format when there's only one program (that I know of) only use it

[16:16] Stickman: A Jira was opened to allow uploading raw .anim files -- rather than having the client convert BVH to .anim and uploading that, the user can upload raw .anim files. This can be done already by modifying the bulk uploader to accept .anim files. The issue, serverside, is that there's no verification being done. Any file is accepted.

[16:16] Kadah Coba: So isn't the question "what happens when a non anim is upload?"?

[16:16] Vincent Nacon: QAvimator that is

[16:16] Jonathan Yap: Vincent, I think you meant BVH format

[16:16] Vincent Nacon: no

[16:17] Stickman: Vincent, you ever tried to make a good quality animation?

[16:17] Vincent Nacon: sure

[16:17] Stickman: How'd it turn out?

[16:17] Andrew Linden: Right, a well behaved viewer will convert to BVH and upload.

[16:17] Stickman: Because mine tend to get eaten alive by BVH.

[16:17] Andrew Linden: The upload pipeline doesn't do any sanity checking on the animation, but we reserve the right to add sanity checking later if needed.

[16:17] Vincent Nacon: decent and limited by SL's standard.... but having anim format doesn't really make a big difference

[16:18] Flip Idlemind: Always a good idea to check for sanity

[16:18] Stickman: Andrew. I sit a security risk? Or is a bad animation asset simply ineffective?

[16:18] Vincent Nacon: at least in my eyes, anim and bvh are the same to me

[16:18] Stickman: Is it a security risk, rather.

[16:18] Andrew Linden: So, in theory right now one could write a 3p viewer that uploads .anim files and knows how to use them after download.

[16:18] Stickman: Vincent, anim and BVH files are enormously different.

[16:18] Vincent Nacon: or better question... what make anim format different from bvh format anyway?

[16:19] Draconis Neurocam: you can animate attachment points

[16:19] Andrew Linden: However, such a feature might break should anti-anim sanity checking ever be added (not that it is in the plan now, I'm just saying the behavior that is currently "undefined but working ok")

[16:19] Vincent Nacon: the data would be different but how would it be different in term of animation limit and support?

[16:19] Vincent Nacon: I mean for animation artist than programmer

[16:19] Andrew Linden: I don't know the feature differences of the two formats.

[16:20] Vincent Nacon: me either...

[16:20] Vincent Nacon: so why?

[16:20] Stickman: A BVH file contains data for every joint for every frame. An internal animation contains "keyframes" with position and rotation changes per joint, can rotate/move eyes and attachments, have a different priority for each joint, and is much, much more efficient than a BVH file. The amount of control is worlds apart.

[16:20] Jonathan Yap: Stickman, if you upload a bvh is it converted to .anim format in the viewer then sent to the server for storage?

[16:21] Vincent Nacon: so priority is what you guy wanted?

[16:21] Stickman: Yes, Jonathan. The BVH file is used as a transitionary format only.

[16:21] Jonathan Yap: Because the jira I saw said to test your upload by playing back the .anim file you just uploaded

[16:21] Jonathan Yap: Does someone have that jira link

[16:22] Stickman: Vincent. What I want is to be able to say, "move this joint like this" and upload it and have it actually work. With the BVH as a transitional medium, the "optimizer" that convers it to the anim format has no idea what I intended as important to useful to the animation. It just sees data in every single frame, not the key frames I made.

[16:22] Vincent Nacon: right

[16:22] Jonathan Yap: vwr-28143

[16:22] JIRA-helper:

[#VWR-28143] Adding raw anim file upload support to Second Life

[16:23] Vincent Nacon: that sounds more like QAvimator's feature issue than having anything new for SL itself

[16:23] Stickman: This has nothing to do with qavimator.

[16:23] Andrew Linden: Someone said that some 3p viewers already support .anim files?

[16:23] Vincent Nacon: ok but what other tools does it?

[16:23] Stickman: Yes, Andrew. Most third party viewers allow direct upload of the internal SL animation format.

[16:24] Stickman: Vincent, I don't think you understand what I'm saying.

[16:24] Vincent Nacon: guess not

[16:24] Jonathan Yap: Let's not worry about Vincent's confusion :)

[16:24] Vincent Nacon: thanks :p

[16:24] Stickman: First, the Jira above is not relevant to this meeting. Second, the issue at hand is that there is no serverside verification for anim files. If it's not a security risk, there's no need to further discussion at this office hours.

[16:24] Andrew Linden: I see, so perhaps the LL viewer product team just needs to be convinced to port .anim support to the official viewer too.

[16:25] Stickman: Right.

[16:25] Jonathan Yap: Andrew, I think we needed to hear that uploading .anim was okay at the server. Adding that option to the LL viewer should be easy, there is a patch already

[16:26] Andrew Linden: Yeah, the server doesn't care as long as the file isn't too big.

[16:26] Andrew Linden: At some size it will fail to upload.

[16:26] Jonathan Yap: That might be true of BVH files as well

[16:26] Andrew Linden: That's all the news I've got.

[16:26] Andrew Linden: Yes, it is also true for BVH files.

[16:26] Vincent Nacon: no news on Wind?

[16:27] Andrew Linden: No news on wind.

[16:28] Andrew Linden: That is a little side project I'd like to get to.

[16:28] Vincent Nacon: ah ok

[16:28] Vincent Nacon: table's open I guess

[16:28] Moundsa Mayo: Will it affect the surface linden water currents? B^D I shut up now.

[16:28] Andrew Linden: I'll probably work on that as an internal demo, with justification being that I'll be able to rip out the old wind simulation code for a simpler system.

[16:28] Vincent Nacon: no mound

[16:28] Vincent Nacon: there isn't one

[16:28] Moundsa Mayo: Yet

[16:28] Vincent Nacon: muhaha!

[16:28] Flip Idlemind: llSetRegionPos is likely to be all over the grid next week, yes?

[16:29] Andrew Linden: No, the wind system I've got in mind would just be a way of telling the region, "Get your wind info from"

[16:29] Flip Idlemind: I'd like to have that be everywhere sooner rather than later so I can get to work on my "Pretend there's a PRIM_REGION_POS flag system"

[16:30] Meeter: Timecheck : User Group is half over

[16:30] Andrew Linden: what is done by that wind service would be wide open: full simulation or dumb lookup table.

[16:30] Andrew Linden: No, the llSetRegionPos() feature is currently blocked by the bugs in the 8-neighbor communication system

[16:31] Rex Cronon: would a huge rotating prim affect wind grid wide?

[16:31] Vincent Nacon: sorry Flip, just a little longer

[16:31] Andrew Linden: There may be an update to a channel with a fix for one or both neighbor bugs. Not sure yet.

[16:31] Moundsa Mayo: So at water level and below it could return a smaller vector reflecting higher density of water, Andrew?

[16:31] Andrew Linden: Well... Moundsa there is a problem with that idea.

[16:32] Vincent Nacon: Mound, you're hoping for something too realistic while the idea behind of redoing wind was to reduce sim's performance drain

[16:32] Andrew Linden: Well, maybe. I'll keep that in mind.

[16:32] Andrew Linden: It might be possible for the wind system to make slight modifications based on terrain or water heights.

[16:32] Jonathan Yap: Below water level the web server would return current data from a buoy, etc

[16:33] Moundsa Mayo: Yah, even if it returned a vector isde the ground, vehicles wold not be there, I'm thinking.

[16:33] Andrew Linden: However the simplest system (and certainly what I'd prototype first) is just a global wind vector that changes over time

[16:33] Moundsa Mayo: [inside]

[16:33] Moundsa Mayo: Granular at region area?

[16:33] Andrew Linden: well... llWind() returns immediately, not after an HTTP lookup or anything like that

[16:33] Vincent Nacon: right

[16:34] Jonathan Yap: You could add a setting to region windlight to let region/estate owners program it, just like they do clouds

[16:34] Andrew Linden: so if you're wondering if you'd get special handling from llWind() calls... unlikely

[16:34] Andrew Linden: llWind() would blindly report the wind that the http service got a few seconds before

[16:35] Moundsa Mayo: And at region boundaries ...

[16:35] Moundsa Mayo: o expectations, just asking.

[16:35] Andrew Linden: using the remote system wind for something like sailboats which need a fancier system would require more features

[16:35] Moundsa Mayo: [No]

[16:35] Andrew Linden: such as some sort of wind detection system with a callback... but I'm not planning on working on that yet. Simple changes first.

[16:36] Raven Juno: ahhh Dx

[16:36] Andrew Linden: If two neighboring regions are getting their wind from the same source, then there would be no wind transition across their mutual boundary.

[16:37] Moundsa Mayo: IC

[16:38] Andrew Linden: Hrm... it occurs to me that maybe the viewer could get its cloud data from an external server, rather than windlight settings.

[16:39] Andrew Linden: or rather... an external server could provide windlight settings that very over time

[16:39] TankMaster Finesmith: real time weather based on asome geographic location...

[16:39] Jonathan Yap: Air flight web pages report on clouds

[16:39] Andrew Linden: Hehe, this reminds me of the "tuple space" virtual world scenario that I heard a long time ago from some developer

[16:40] Andrew Linden: the idea being that the world's content would actually be supplied by various external servers that already had content

[16:40] Andrew Linden: the theory being that the content was the hard stuff to create

[16:40] Moundsa Mayo: Parallel universes! Just like RL B^P

[16:41] Andrew Linden: Yeah sorta. You'd be able to "subscribe" to some virtual world content and interact with it

[16:41] Andrew Linden: but the content would come from many different sorts of "formats"

[16:41] Shiroyu Takakura: Is the second life cloud still in development or is the project on hold?

[16:41] Orion Fhang: Now that would be a neat idea... Plug in an extra field to the region / land parameters for third party viewers to use - like ViewerParams or something. Where things like Phoenix's lightshare, wind server settings, etc. could be stored and passed instead of adding a tag into the land description. :)

[16:41] Rex Cronon: there is a stiking similarity to sims in sl:)

[16:42] Andrew Linden: such as a VRML world, or an online multi-user game, or some GIS model

[16:42] Vincent Nacon: ActiveWorlds?

[16:42] Vincent Nacon: :P

[16:42] Jonathan Yap: Shiroyu, region windlight has been released for quite some time now

[16:42] Davido Chrome: Does this mean you could host your own sim?

[16:42] TankMaster Finesmith: LL needs volumatric clouds in conjuntion with realtime wather updates from external weather services... :D

[16:43] Davido Chrome: One thing that I would love was if I could rent a house in Second life, but the inside being local.

[16:43] Rex Cronon: striking*

[16:43] Andrew Linden: It isn't something we're woking on now.

[16:43] Andrew Linden: Yes, in theory Davido. This is just an idea I heard from a contractor back in ... 2001 I think.

[16:43] Shiroyu Takakura: The actual cloud client I meant.

[16:43] Sebastean Steamweaver: An updated particle system would be nice too!

[16:43] Vincent Nacon: Yeah Tank... till they start supporting *cough* videocards *cough*

[16:43] Davido Chrome: That is, The inside being set up on my computer. But connected to the asset server when I am online.

[16:43] Andrew Linden: Odd... I actually lost a chat message... it never showed up.

[16:44] Vincent Nacon: it'll come around later

[16:44] Jessica Lyon: I lol'd

[16:44] Jessica Lyon: welcome to chat lag! It's more than just lag!

[16:44] Jonathan Yap: How does one know about a lost chat message?

[16:44] Vincent Nacon: Oh hi there Jessica... oh wait, you only look like her.

[16:44] Keli Kyrie: Lag Test: 4:23pm

[16:44] Simon Linden: lol

[16:44] Rex Cronon: u type it and it never shows up. or 5-10 minutes later:)

[16:44] Andrew Linden: Ah there it is. Nevermind. I just couldn't find it earlier.

[16:44] Vincent Nacon: cause he typed it, Jonathan?

[16:45] Davido Chrome: I missed the start, has llSetRegionPos gone live? I don't seem to be able to see diagonally adjacent sims yet.

[16:45] Vincent Nacon: ahh we're talking too fast for him

[16:45] TankMaster Finesmith: no, davido

[16:45] Vincent Nacon: no David, it's blocked by different bug in 8 sims corner thing

[16:45] Moundsa Mayo: Only two rules here Davido - Be on time, and bring enough for everyone to eat B^D

[16:45] Sebastean Steamweaver: llSetRegionPos... When? How did I miss that?

[16:46] Andrew Linden: llSetRegionPos() is in RC I think, but is not ready for the main grid yet.

[16:46] Sebastean Steamweaver: Whoever implemented that function is getting a fruitbasket.

[16:46] Andrew Linden: There are some bugs in the RC that will prevent it from being promoted to the main channel for another week or two.

[16:46] Simon Linden: Right, it should be on about 30% of the grid, since the same version is on all 3 RC channels

[16:46] Simon Linden: It should work here, fwiw

[16:47] Sebastean Steamweaver: Who do I send the fruitbasket to? It's like time has been rewound to Christmas!

[16:47] Vincent Nacon: you can send it to me

[16:47] Andrew Linden: Simon implented it.

[16:47] Vincent Nacon: I'm hungry

[16:47] Sebastean Steamweaver: Simon, I hope you like bananas.

[16:47] Jonathan Yap: Get LL's address for SF

[16:47] Keli Kyrie: Lots of food and drinks on table help yourself

[16:47] Andrew Linden: Simon works in Davis. Better send it there.

[16:47] Moundsa Mayo: Thanks, Keli!

[16:47] Simon Linden: lol, well, I'm not in SF much, so they'd probably eat it before I get a chance

[16:48] Object: Hello, Avatar!

[16:48] Ima Mechanique: damn, shouldn't have looked at the burgers and dogs. Now I'm hungry

[16:48] Strawberry Cupcake ! whispers: MMMmmmm!

[16:48] Vincent Nacon: or would be rotten by the time you get there

[16:48] Davido Chrome: Also, I made a 40 prim car. How much server resources does it take to move around 40 prims where only about 4 are physical?

[16:48] Andrew Linden: Not much physics resources Davido, but the extra prims don't help at region crossings.

[16:48] Vincent Nacon: the idea of folks at LL eating fruit was bit strange

[16:48] Davido Chrome: Figured.

[16:48] Sebastean Steamweaver: BEfore the type is up, I did have a question about prim accounting, if we have enough of the meeting left to discuss it.

[16:49] Object: Hello, Avatar!

[16:49] Sebastean Steamweaver: before the time*

[16:49] Davido Chrome: Does it take less resources than a 32 prim vehicle with all prims physical?

[16:49] Andrew Linden: However a few extra prims probably don't compare to many people's attachments+scripts on their avatars.

[16:49] Simon Linden: yeah, it's working OK here

[16:49] Ubit Umarov: ( same happened to me ima ;) )

[16:49] Flip Idlemind: So, any new (since yesterday, when I asked this question at another meeting) information on the nature of the "creators program" one will need to be in to use the new fancy LR functions?

[16:49] Andrew Linden: Davido, yes certainly less resources for the physics simulation.

[16:49] Flip Idlemind: Im just worried that the program might be, like, super difficult to get into

[16:50] Simon Linden: Nothing new on that, Flip

[16:50] Orion Fhang: LR Functions?

[16:50] Davido Chrome: Is there a wiki page to go to where I can see what causes most lag of these things?

[16:50] Andrew Linden: We don't know anything about the "creator's prorgram" here.

[16:50] Vincent Nacon: Flip, passing the Mesh test wasn't even hard

[16:50] Andrew Linden: LR = Linden Realms

[16:50] Orion Fhang: Ah got it ;)

[16:50] Flip Idlemind: Riiiight, buuuut

[16:50] Vincent Nacon: so I doubt creator program would be hard either

[16:50] Flip Idlemind: Who knows how the test for the creators program would be

[16:51] Davido Chrome: And what the info under the More info link in the edit window really means.

[16:51] Flip Idlemind: If it's similar to the mesh survey thingy, that wouldn't be too bad

[16:51] Simon Linden: The new functions are a bit more dicey than mesh ... there's certainly a bunch of trust involved in opening them up

[16:51] Rex Cronon: the more u pay the better grade u get;)

[16:51] Moundsa Mayo: 1) Rez a plywood cube. 2) Color it. 3) Eat it.

[16:51] Flip Idlemind: But if it's like "You must be employed by some RL game dev company"...

[16:51] Vincent Nacon: I wouldn't mind if it's better and harder than Mesh test, but surely would pass easily

[16:51] Simon Linden: It's probably tied to region ownership, since they work over an estate

[16:52] Simon Linden: but I'm blowing smoke here, I really don't know any details

[16:52] Davido Chrome: What if you don't own a sim but want to make simwide games to sell?

[16:52] Flip Idlemind: Ownership? What about estate manager...ship?

[16:52] Vincent Nacon: too easy to abuse, Flip

[16:52] Flip Idlemind: I work at a region where the owner doesn't exactly...know how to script. I do, but Im not the owner...

[16:53] Vincent Nacon: I know but you have to keep in mind of other people

[16:53] HD Plain whispers: MMMmmmm! Enjoy this hotdog from Victorias Little Secrets Store !

[16:53] Vincent Nacon: people that want to cheat the easy way

[16:53] Simon Linden: We'll have to see what comes out, we don't know the details being discussed and they aren't ready for an announcement yet.

[16:53] Davido Chrome: I like to be creative, doesn't mean I am rich. Won't get rich either with my tendency to licence under Creative commons...

[16:53] Moundsa Mayo: I much prefer to cheat the hard way, myself!

[16:53] Andrew Linden: As of right now EstateOwner and EstateManger have exactly the same permissions... except only EstateOwners get to add/remove EstateMangers

[16:54] Vincent Nacon: except they can't use RAW upload

[16:54] Cooper Lapis: and modily RAW...

[16:54] Vincent Nacon: for terrian

[16:54] Vincent Nacon: yeah

[16:55] Meeter: Timecheck : User Group is almost over

[16:55] Vincent Nacon: which I wondered why not...

[16:55] Andrew Linden: Oh ok. Thanks, I didn't know that.

[16:55] Andrew Linden: Probably an oversight. That RAW upload stuff was added a very long time ago

[16:55] Vincent Nacon: hmmm hey Andrew... is there a job opening at LL?

[16:55] Andrew Linden: before EstateManagers existed I would guess.

[16:55] Sebastean Steamweaver: Do you think you have time for one more question, or should I save it? Hopefully it wouldn't take too long.

[16:55] Vincent Nacon: :P

[16:55] Stickman: The RAW isn't an oversight. It's a support issue. Too many people upload a RAW, half the stuff is underground and gets returned, rollback is requested.

[16:56] Andrew Linden: Go ahead and ask Sebastean

[16:56] Jonathan Yap: I learned something the other day: if your name is in the Allowed list then you can create event entries on the web page

[16:56] Simon Linden: actually, there are a lot of job openings: go to

[16:56] Sebastean Steamweaver: When the new prim accounting was implemented on mesh beta, and the physics system that allowed you to set child prims to "NONE" for physical shape was introduced, we were told that this would work on normal prims as well as mesh, and that it could be used to help lower prim counts on builds using (for example) sculpties, as well as give appropriate physics shapes. Now, when I try to use that on normal prims, the mesh prim accounting is applied instead of normal prim accounting (a 14 prim object gains a land impact of 100+ even with no mesh components). I'm just wondering if you could give some perspective on why it has been implemented that way?

[16:56] Stickman: That sounds like a bug, Jonathan.

[16:56] Vincent Nacon: true Stickman but... how likely anyway when dealing that?

[16:56] Vincent Nacon: Simon, I was joking

[16:57] Stickman: Vincent, try asking support. They don't release numbers, but they have statistics on what their most common requests are. Rollbacks are bad because it can create lost or dupliccate content on nocopy objects.

[16:57] Andrew Linden: Sure Sebastean...

[16:57] Vincent Nacon: ....sigh...

[16:57] Andrew Linden: The old accounting does not properly account for true cost of various prims.

[16:57] Andrew Linden: Er... it is just flat for all prims

[16:58] Kadah Coba: Sebastean, thats "expected behavior."

[16:58] Davido Chrome: My 40 prim car has a land impact of 75. XD

[16:58] TankMaster Finesmith: theres ways to make a standard singple prim to have a land impact og 5

[16:58] Andrew Linden: however not all prims are equal when it comes to physics cost in particular.

[16:58] Vincent Nacon: sure

[16:58] Vincent Nacon: only good builders know how to keep it less

[16:59] Andrew Linden: A hollow, cut, twisted torus is not really 1 prim to the physics engine, or at least it costs much more than a simpler shape.

[16:59] Kadah Coba: The only change that was made was that instead of being charged for the total of all 3 costs, its just the highest one.

[16:59] Sebastean Steamweaver: Don't worry Kadah, I know it's expected behavior :) I wasn't asking for a defense for it, just a perspective/reason.

[16:59] Andrew Linden: But we couldn't change the accounting for older objects... to much content already existede.

[16:59] Vincent Nacon: but no need to change normal prim's score since they are pretty much traded its creative limitation for less score

[16:59] Davido Chrome: You should be able to get a very low land impact if make optimized meshes.

[16:59] Andrew Linden: So we tied new features to the newer accounting going forward.

[17:00] Meeter: Thank you for coming to the Server User Group

[17:00] Kadah Coba: When I was playing around with it last week, "steaming" cost was the reason for my torrid to be costing 14 with phys type none. Go figure.

[17:00] Sebastean Steamweaver nods

[17:00] Vincent Nacon: this welder is less than 1 but counted as 1

[17:00] Davido Chrome: I think the Streaming cost are to safeguard for people with old computers?

[17:01] Andrew Linden: There have been debates above removing that "streaming" cost within LL.

[17:01] Vincent Nacon: but... I do understand why there's a streaming cost

[17:01] Andrew Linden: I don't know the current state of that discussion.

[17:01] Kadah Coba: Steaming cost on a normal prim seems to me like a false charge.

[17:01] Vincent Nacon: and it's a good way to keep builder from abusing the score if it wasn't there

[17:01] Flip Idlemind: Well, I'll say this, even though there's probably not actually anyone here with the ability to make such a decision, pease consider a permission request system, or something like it, before you require sim ownership to use llTeleportAgent

[17:01] Sebastean Steamweaver: I understood the streaming cost to be a bandwidth protection of sorts.

[17:01] Rex Cronon: the streaming cost is prevent congestion of internet pipes:)

[17:02] Vincent Nacon: yeah, it's a good limitation control

[17:02] Rex Cronon: is to prevent*

[17:02] Vincent Nacon: I'd leave it alone

[17:02] Kadah Coba: I believe that streaming cost was originally download cost

[17:02] Vincent Nacon: however....

[17:02] Vincent Nacon: I'd take out the scaling size factor

[17:02] Sebastean Steamweaver: Thank you Andrew, for the response. I appreciate the explanation.

[17:02] Moundsa Mayo: OR llTeleportVehicleWithPassengers, Flip B^D

[17:02] Jonathan Yap: Have a good weekend everyone

[17:03] TankMaster Finesmith: have a great weekend everyone

[17:03] Andrew Linden: Thanks for coming everyone.

[17:03] Vincent Nacon: oh yeah, meeting's over!

[17:03] Vincent Nacon: thanks

[17:03] Sebastean Steamweaver: Thank you for the office hours

[17:03] Moundsa Mayo: Andrew, Simon, thank you for your time and hard work!

[17:03] Rex Cronon: tc andrew

[17:03] Simon Linden: Thanks everyone for coming today

[17:03] Rex Cronon: tc simon

[17:03] Rex Cronon: tc everybody

[17:04] Keli Kyrie: Thanks grab some snacks on the way out


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