User:Andrew Linden/Office Hours/2007 12 13

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Transcript of Andrew Linden's office hours:

[17:04] Rex Cronon: hello andrew
[17:04] Andrew Linden: Hi Rex
[17:05] Andrew Linden: I think Sidewinder was going to show up.
[17:05] Sidewinder Linden: ayup :)
[17:05] Andrew Linden: Ah, there you are.
[17:05] Sidewinder Linden: hi rex
[17:05] Rex Cronon: hi sidewinder
[17:05] WarKirby Magojiro: Thanks rex. I would have missed it
[17:05] Sidewinder Linden: hiya
[17:06] Rex Cronon: np warkiby
[17:06] Andrew Linden: Ok, I suppose this is a quorum enough to start
[17:06] WarKirby Magojiro: I noticed a few issues with avatar motion in the latest build
[17:07] WarKirby Magojiro: and a severe lack of ground friction
[17:07] Andrew Linden: Sidewinder, why don't you present a summary of Havok4. Most of the latest has to do with your work.
[17:07] Andrew Linden: Severe lack of ground friction... for the avatar?
[17:07] WarKirby Magojiro: yes, specifically when landing
[17:07] WarKirby Magojiro: I kept sliding around
[17:07] Andrew Linden: Oh, you mean the "slides and never stops"? Or... land hard and slide var.
[17:07] Andrew Linden: far
[17:07] Sidewinder Linden: is this the sliding down hills?
[17:07] WarKirby Magojiro: yes
[17:08] WarKirby Magojiro: not necessarily downhill
[17:08] Sidewinder Linden: when standing on a slope, you tend to slowly slip and then avatar "grabs and corrects"?
[17:08] WarKirby Magojiro: just hitting the ground at an angle other than straight down
[17:08] Sidewinder Linden: hmm
[17:08] Dahlia Trimble: that happened to me too
[17:08] WarKirby Magojiro: known issue ?
[17:08] Andrew Linden: Yeah, I've noticed the slow sliding.
[17:09] WarKirby Magojiro: I ran into another oddity, too
[17:09] Andrew Linden: However, I haven't noticed extreme sliding when landing. At least not recently.
[17:09] WarKirby Magojiro: as a result of physics weapon testing, my avatar became unable to stand on the ground properly
[17:09] Dahlia Trimble: I was standing on a hill and had my camera focused on an object. when I released my camera I was in the water
[17:09] WarKirby Magojiro: some random bouncing when walking around
[17:10] WarKirby Magojiro: sitting down and then standing again fixes it
[17:10] WarKirby Magojiro: I couldn't find a way to reproduce it all the time
[17:10] Andrew Linden: Ah... I know what that avatar wonky control problem is, although I thought I had fixed it.
[17:10] WarKirby Magojiro: ah
[17:10] Dahlia Trimble gave you Snapshot : Madness? This is Havok 4!! 30 mi, Crash Me (70, 117,.
[17:11] WarKirby Magojiro: Also, andrew
[17:11] WarKirby Magojiro: I found a rather worrying physics based weapon
[17:11] WarKirby Magojiro: I haven't been able to test it yet
[17:11] Sooden Ren: what is this?
[17:11] WarKirby Magojiro: as I aqquired it just after the last beta refresg
[17:11] WarKirby Magojiro: I'm wondering if you could manually refresg my beta inventory, so I can test it under havok 4
[17:11] Rex Cronon: what happened to dahlia, happened to me too, but in havok1
[17:12] Sidewinder Linden: sure just a minute warkirby
[17:12] Andrew Linden: Oh right. Sidewinder, you said you would do that. Have you marked it yet?
[17:12] Sidewinder Linden: i did when you last asked but i'll tag it again
[17:12] Sooden Ren: take care, this is not the palace for me atm
[17:12] WarKirby Magojiro: bye
[17:12] Sidewinder Linden: it'll refresh to copy at the time you log in next to the beta preview
[17:12] WarKirby Magojiro: can I try now ?
[17:13] Sidewinder Linden: just a minute...
[17:13] WarKirby Magojiro: kk
[17:13] Andrew Linden: These are office hours for the Havok4 project. Have a seat if you are interested.
[17:13] Dominique Kuhn: LOL behave cybersword, they are having a meeting
[17:14] WarKirby Magojiro: On a similar note
[17:14] WarKirby Magojiro: will you be taking a proactive stance to patching physics exploits that may crop up post release?
[17:14] Dominique Kuhn: cant u read they are having a meeting, you might hit them
[17:14] WarKirby Magojiro: a lot of havok 1 issues have gone unfixed for years
[17:14] Andrew Linden: Yes, we'll be fixing things post release.
[17:15] Andrew Linden: The "release" of Havok4 will take a few weeks or months.
[17:15] Dominique Kuhn: well its up to you, just dont tell me that i didnt warn you
[17:15] WarKirby Magojiro: do you mean the process of releasng, or the time from now til release?
[17:15] Cybersword Avro: nah they wont hit as long as they dont walk infront of meh gun or they start shooting me =P
[17:15] Sidewinder Linden: Andrew, maybe I should explain the release process a that we're getting closer...?
[17:15] Cybersword Avro: get hit*
[17:15] WarKirby Magojiro: good idea
[17:16] WarKirby Magojiro: I understand there will be tests on estates ?
[17:16] Cybersword Avro: want a tiny evil squirrel av.?
[17:16] Sidewinder Linden: You probably know that we've put up a technology called "HetGrid", that allows us to run multiple simulator versions across the public Second Life system...
[17:16] WarKirby Magojiro nods
[17:16] Sidewinder Linden: Havok4 will be one of the first projects to make major use of this new capability.
[17:16] Dominique Kuhn: got it already, its like ages in my inventory
[17:16] Cybersword Avro: =P
[17:17] Sidewinder Linden: We are already running Havok4 on the LInden internal areas of the grid, and have been for a couple of weeks
[17:17] Sidewinder Linden: We'll be getting from here to "live" in a few phases.
[17:17] Sidewinder Linden: The first one was the beta preview process that you've beenhelping with.
[17:17] Cybersword Avro: here, take this so you wont be typing in midair on nothing
[17:17] Sidewinder Linden: Next is that we've built some automation to allow many folks to test their entire regions on the beta preview
[17:18] Dominique Kuhn: lol got severals of those, and dont like typing on the laptop anymore
[17:18] Andrew Linden: HetGrid = heterogenious grid
[17:18] WarKirby Magojiro knew that definition
[17:18] Mego Ryba: heteroGENIUS :)))
[17:18] Sidewinder Linden: I'll be asking for folks who would like to have their region copied to the beta preview, so that you can try Havok4 on your fully operational sim, without any risk of "something happening" on the main system
[17:18] WarKirby Magojiro: copied to the beta ?
[17:18] Sidewinder Linden: Once you've decided "looks good" then we'll bring up Havok4 on your Second Life public region
[17:18] WarKirby Magojiro: I thought it would be selectively deployed on the main grid?
[17:19] WarKirby Magojiro: ah
[17:19] Sidewinder Linden: yes... we can copy the simstate (the current state of) your region to the beta preview, with all permissions
[17:19] Cybersword Avro: =P
[17:19] Cybersword Avro: /
[17:19] Sidewinder Linden: so that you don't have to rebuild it to try it on Havok4 on the beta preview
[17:19] Cybersword Avro: *YAY*
[17:19] WarKirby Magojiro: neat idea
[17:19] Sidewinder Linden: we've now added a set of hosts to the beta preview, so taht we can preview around 25-50 regions at a time
[17:19] WarKirby Magojiro: excellent
[17:20] Sidewinder Linden: so... one question i had for you is...
[17:20] Sidewinder Linden: we currently have a set of regions on the beta preview... with this new capability, do we really need all them, or can i remove a set of the curreent beta regions to make space for more resident regions?
[17:20] Sidewinder Linden: is there any particular reason to have a lot of the current regions there?
[17:21] WarKirby Magojiro: well, the regions which for the most part don't allow build/scripts aren't much use
[17:21] Kitto Flora: Go for resident over the 'standard' stuff
[17:21] Rex Cronon: if one or more is laggy than u can use the others?
[17:21] WarKirby Magojiro: places like abbots are excellent, though
[17:21] Sidewinder Linden: is there a small subset of regions that form the "core" of the regions you really NEED on the beta preview?
[17:21] WarKirby Magojiro: you can buy Cubey Terra's entire product line with monopoly money :)
[17:21] Sidewinder Linden: so maybe we should just toss out names of regions that "definitely should stay"
[17:21] Sidewinder Linden: abbotts is one, right?
[17:21] Rex Cronon: how about Rausch?
[17:21] WarKirby Magojiro: I'd say abbots, all the vehicle testing areas
[17:21] WarKirby Magojiro: all linden sandboxes
[17:22] WarKirby Magojiro: morris
[17:22] Sidewinder Linden: which vehicle testing areas?
[17:22] WarKirby Magojiro: the whole set of regions around balance
[17:22] Sidewinder Linden: by the way, we can easily create some more sandboxes, rather than "built-out regions" if that makes more sense
[17:22] Sidewinder Linden: ok
[17:22] WarKirby Magojiro: yes, that woould be good
[17:23] WarKirby Magojiro: also, a nice mix of parcel permissions, will help
[17:23] Sidewinder Linden: i actually had a thought about this... unconvnetional a bit, but...
[17:23] Andrew Linden: Vehicle testing are: Balance, Bethel, Fame, and Fortuna
[17:23] Andrew Linden: north of the sandboxen
[17:23] WarKirby Magojiro: On the first version of the beta, the Georgean region allowed public terraforming in entireity
[17:23] Sidewinder Linden: what if we had a set of "blank" regions... some hillly, and some pretty much flat, and a couple of void sims (water) and that was about half of the non-resident regions?
[17:23] WarKirby Magojiro: That was quite nice
[17:23] Kitto Flora: Not being able to install permanent test fixtures is quite a problem, at present
[17:23] WarKirby Magojiro: Add a terraformable region, please
[17:23] Sidewinder Linden: ok
[17:23] Dahlia Trimble: how about some H4 sandboxes on the main grid?
[17:24] Mego Ryba: YES!! h4 sandboxen on main
[17:24] Sidewinder Linden: yes...
[17:24] WarKirby Magojiro: that would be good also, for the next phase
[17:24] Andrew Linden: Crash Me is currently open on the Main Grid, right?
[17:24] Sidewinder Linden: heh i haven't blogged about this yet, but Crash Me is on public and is now open to all
[17:24] Mego Ryba: AND for demo to introduce ppl
[17:24] Sidewinder Linden: yes
[17:24] Andrew Linden: It is running Havok4
[17:24] WarKirby Magojiro: I don't think it is
[17:24] Dahlia Trimble: it was yesteday
[17:24] Sidewinder Linden: yes it is ;)
[17:24] WarKirby Magojiro: or wasn't the last time I tried
[17:24] Andrew Linden: Oh ok. Dan may have closed it.
[17:24] Sidewinder Linden: just updated it and opened it in the last 24 hours
[17:24] WarKirby Magojiro: Crash me is a useful place
[17:24] Kitto Flora: What class Sim is Crash Me?
[17:25] Rex Cronon: "crash me" on the main grid, is using havok4, right now?
[17:25] Dahlia Trimble: too crowded sometimes
[17:25] WarKirby Magojiro: though it really needs a hard wipe, rather than autoreturn
[17:25] Sidewinder Linden: i'll check
[17:25] Sidewinder Linden: yes rex
[17:25] Mego Ryba: (how do u check the class? how can i check)
[17:25] Sidewinder Linden: dan has suggested adding a crash me 2, 3
[17:25] Andrew Linden: Crash Me is class-5
[17:25] Sidewinder Linden: would that be enough?
[17:25] Rex Cronon: sadly, last time i went to that sim i crashed
[17:25] WarKirby Magojiro: yes, that would be excellent
[17:25] Dahlia Trimble: lol
[17:25] Mego Ryba: LOL
[17:25] WarKirby Magojiro: but can they be set to wipe, instead of autoreturning
[17:25] WarKirby Magojiro: like the other sandboxes do
[17:26] Sidewinder Linden: i'll check
[17:26] Sidewinder Linden: probably
[17:26] WarKirby Magojiro: autoreturn is too easy to circumvent, even by accident
[17:26] WarKirby Magojiro: especially with self replicating things
[17:26] Andrew Linden: If the region is set to sandbox, then the autoreturn wipes (only returns no-copy objects).
[17:26] Sidewinder Linden: ok
[17:26] WarKirby Magojiro: ok, that's good
[17:26] Andrew Linden: However, the cleaning is done by the parcel autoreturn period
[17:26] Andrew Linden: and it does not wipe everything at the same time.
[17:26] WarKirby Magojiro: hmm
[17:27] Sidewinder Linden: So if we had Abbots, Rausch, Morris, a couple of Linden Sandboxes, Balance and connected regions, Georgean with terraforming on (set to wipe), and orientation island and a welcome island... would that "do it" for a base configuration?
[17:27] WarKirby Magojiro: sounds good
[17:28] WarKirby Magojiro: also, I was completely unable to find a push enabled sandbox
[17:28] Arawn Spitteler: Can anybody go to OI Beta?
[17:28] Sidewinder Linden: and Crash Me, Crash Me 2, Crash Me 3 on the main Second Life system all set to wipe
[17:28] WarKirby Magojiro: can we have at least one of those?
[17:28] Kitto Flora: Balance, Betehel, Fame H1 and Fortuna H1?
[17:28] Sidewinder Linden: is there any reason to not have push enabled all over most of the beta?
[17:28] Dahlia Trimble: sounds good :)
[17:28] WarKirby Magojiro: I don't see why not
[17:28] Sidewinder Linden: how many Havok1's do we need?
[17:29] WarKirby Magojiro: I'd think it'd be good to have a havok 1 within easy reach of any havok 4 sim
[17:29] Sidewinder Linden: need at least one next to an h4, but do we need more?
[17:29] WarKirby Magojiro: so one can cross back and forth to compare things
[17:29] Sidewinder Linden: right - want to be able to test border crossings
[17:29] Sidewinder Linden: right
[17:29] Kitto Flora: One is useful to prove effects in H1
[17:29] Sidewinder Linden: kk so maybe two just in case it gets busy... ?
[17:29] WarKirby Magojiro: Could you arrange regions in a line
[17:29] WarKirby Magojiro: one line of havok 4, and a line of havok 1 parallel
[17:29] Kitto Flora: H1/H1 border crossings are a moot point aren't they?
[17:29] Sidewinder Linden: *shrugs*... well they are what they are today... :)
[17:30] Kitto Flora: Exactly
[17:30] Sidewinder Linden: we're really not planning to do anything about that...
[17:30] Sidewinder Linden: back to the goals...
[17:30] Kitto Flora: H4 boder crossings are at least 2x worse
[17:30] Sidewinder Linden: we would not want to run h1 and h4 for a *long* time together
[17:30] WarKirby Magojiro nods
[17:30] Sidewinder Linden: the idea is to allow a gradual migration, but to get things cleaned up as soon as possible until we are at the place where we can convert "the rest" and be running all H4 safely
[17:31] Mego Ryba: hey when everybody gets done i have a completely different question, about whether H4 will give the impression of real "touch"
[17:31] Sidewinder Linden: /kk
[17:31] Dahlia Trimble: can you do a H1<->H4 crossing?
[17:31] WarKirby Magojiro: Do you mean the tolerance zone ?
[17:31] WarKirby Magojiro: that's always been annoying to me
[17:31] Sidewinder Linden: today h1-h4-h1 crossings are a bit rough, but they work... some sscripted vehicles and huds "really don't like it"
[17:31] Sidewinder Linden: but the goal is to have that clean before we deploy to any regions on the main system that have that sort of border
[17:32] Kitto Flora: What about the physics load?
[17:32] Andrew Linden: No, Havok4 will not be providing a real sense of touch.
[17:32] Sidewinder Linden: we are doing some interesting stuff about that right now actually.
[17:32] WarKirby Magojiro: hm
[17:32] Andrew Linden: Havok4 will behave mostly like Havok1, but with less crashing.
[17:32] WarKirby Magojiro: interesting stuff ?
[17:32] Sidewinder Linden: well... havok4 handles overloads in a more graceful way...
[17:32] Mego Ryba: sense of touch-- where is that discussion/ office hour?
[17:32] Andrew Linden: By "interesting" he means were are tweaking the Runtime Collision Control System (RCCS)
[17:33] Kitto Flora: But it overloads much faster than H1
[17:33] Sidewinder Linden: in the current build, there is a subsystem that reduces the level of detail when overloaded
[17:33] Kitto Flora: (H4 does)
[17:33] Sidewinder Linden: @kitto - we're alsogetting to the point of starting some performance work - we've been focused on "no crashes first"
[17:33] Kitto Flora: UNderstood.
[17:33] WarKirby Magojiro: excellent
[17:33] Sidewinder Linden: do you have a specific case that you use to see this overload change kitto?
[17:34] Kitto Flora: Dont think its done until it also performs close to H1...
[17:34] Sidewinder Linden: well something else to know....
[17:34] Sidewinder Linden: up until yesterday
[17:34] Sidewinder Linden: the entire beta preview was all class 4 servers
[17:34] Sidewinder Linden: we just added a rack of class 5's
[17:34] Dahlia Trimble: does server class affect anything other than performance?
[17:34] Sidewinder Linden: so when you compare a main system region that was on a class 5 with beta - it's on (or was on) different hardware
[17:34] Andrew Linden: Kitto, what kinds of scenarios are you talking about where H4 is not as fast as H1?
[17:35] WarKirby Magojiro: I see
[17:35] Sidewinder Linden: dahlia - much lower power consumption, but that's not visible as a user
[17:35] Sidewinder Linden: going forward i'll be making sure that class 5 sims on main system are copied to class 5 hosts on beta, so they can be directly compared
[17:35] Andrew Linden: Higher server class just means "newer hardware" --> better performance.
[17:36] Kitto Flora: Andrew, running a long train, which equates to running several vehicles at once in a sim.
[17:36] Sidewinder Linden: kitto.. which region do you use on the main second life system (the name?)
[17:36] Andrew Linden: Kitto, the long train is using several vehicles?
[17:36] Andrew Linden: A vehicle for each car?
[17:36] Kitto Flora: 8 vehicles at once knocks the H4 TD down to 0.8; in H1 - the TD does not even blick.
[17:36] Kitto Flora: blnk
[17:36] Kitto Flora: 8 vehicles
[17:37] Andrew Linden: Ok, that's something we'll have to look into.
[17:37] Rex Cronon: i guess u can't have car races on havok4
[17:37] Sidewinder Linden: ok btw andrew - wish (his region) is class 4 on the main system, so taht's not the cause of the difference
[17:37] WarKirby Magojiro: that sounds like a problem
[17:38] Sidewinder Linden: so kitto... i gather that having wish on the beta preview would be helpful, eh? :)
[17:38] Kitto Flora: I believe class 4 on H1 can run 12 vehicles at once ok
[17:39] Kitto Flora: Balance on Beta, H4 strats dieing at 8
[17:39] Kitto Flora: H4 and class 5 is unknown
[17:39] Kitto Flora: but theres so many h4s on MG, H$ on class 4 has to work good
[17:39] Kitto Flora: Yes, if Wish was on Beta I could test stuff a lot
[17:40] Kitto Flora: and compare it directly with how MG performs
[17:40] Sidewinder Linden: i'll add wish to the preview kitto.. might be tomorrow...
[17:40] Kitto Flora: OK :)
[17:40] Adz Childs: hi, Kitto!
[17:41] Kitto Flora: Wish is a sim thats near max load with vendors and textures. It can runs about 5 avs and 3 or 4 vehicles
[17:41] Adz Childs smiles wide
[17:41] Sidewinder Linden: so if i remove all regions other than the ones we listed, that's ok with everyone?
[17:41] Sidewinder Linden: and then add in the resident regions?
[17:41] WarKirby Magojiro: seems good
[17:41] WarKirby Magojiro: I can't think of any others
[17:41] Kitto Flora: Sounds good to me
[17:41] Sidewinder Linden: ok cool
[17:41] WarKirby Magojiro: oh, morris
[17:41] WarKirby Magojiro: I uise that sandbox a little
[17:42] Sidewinder Linden: i'll probably put up one or two void water regions as well for the boating/sailing folks
[17:42] Dahlia Trimble: only complaint I had about beta was trying to find a region I could build in that wasnt lagged out
[17:42] Sidewinder Linden: morris is on the list "to keep"
[17:42] Sidewinder Linden: good point dahlia...
[17:42] Kitto Flora: Oh how about putting in 2 sims that have the GSLR tracks?
[17:42] Sidewinder Linden: if that is a problem let me know and we'll look at which others to add
[17:42] Sidewinder Linden: hmm - does anyone know them by name?
[17:42] WarKirby Magojiro: There's not much that can be done about that, bar having a linden on call to clean things up
[17:42] Sidewinder Linden: the sim names?
[17:43] Kitto Flora: I'm looking it up
[17:43] Sidewinder Linden: or short wipe intervals or short return intervals
[17:43] Sidewinder Linden: thanks kitto
[17:43] Arawn Spitteler: Calleta is the rail yard
[17:43] Arawn Spitteler: Mocha to Purple might work
[17:43] Dahlia Trimble: is there a process to get recent items moved into our inventories on beta?
[17:43] Andrew Linden: What is GSLR?
[17:43] Kitto Flora: Crimson, Indigo, Magenta, maroon, perry....
[17:43] Sidewinder Linden: yes
[17:44] Kitto Flora: Great Second Life railway
[17:44] WarKirby Magojiro: #Great Second Life Railroad
[17:44] Sidewinder Linden: if you need your inventory refreshed, please send an email to me - sidewinder (at) with the request
[17:44] Dahlia Trimble: thanks :)
[17:44] WarKirby Magojiro: Oh, sidewinder
[17:44] WarKirby Magojiro: a seemingly abandoned project
[17:44] WarKirby Magojiro: could you have a word with frontier linden about that
[17:44] Kitto Flora: Scratch that list its wrong
[17:44] Sidewinder Linden: ok... kitto - are there maybe just a pair or three rails sims? do we really need 4-5 of them?
[17:44] WarKirby Magojiro: I sent a support ticket to get an inventory refresh
[17:44] WarKirby Magojiro: and he refused
[17:44] Kitto Flora: Try Periwinkle and Purple
[17:44] Sidewinder Linden: warkirby???
[17:44] Sidewinder Linden: ok kitto
[17:44] Kitto Flora: Thats a good pair
[17:45] WarKirby Magojiro: ask him to pass future requests along to you, perhaps ?
[17:45] Kitto Flora: Maroon has a lot of NO ENTRY lots
[17:45] Andrew Linden: Warkirby, that was for an inventory refresh on the beta?
[17:45] WarKirby Magojiro: yes
[17:45] Andrew Linden: Yeah, not a typical service support provides.
[17:45] Sidewinder Linden: warkirby - i'm not volunteering to do hundreds of these a week ;)
[17:45] Sidewinder Linden: however in between the major database updates if you really need it refreshed i can take care of it
[17:46] Andrew Linden: Probalby best to just ping us directlly and not try to get support to forward.
[17:46] WarKirby Magojiro: I see
[17:46] Sidewinder Linden: warkirby are you currretnly logged into beta?
[17:46] WarKirby Magojiro: yes
[17:46] WarKirby Magojiro: testing things now
[17:46] Sidewinder Linden: ahh
[17:46] WarKirby Magojiro: runnign into odd bugs with avatar motion
[17:46] Sidewinder Linden: umm if you want me to set that flag i think you need to be logged out ;)
[17:46] WarKirby Magojiro: but the weapons seem to be nullified, thankfully
[17:46] Sidewinder Linden: i'll try later then
[17:47] WarKirby Magojiro: set what flag?
[17:47] Sidewinder Linden: inventory refresh
[17:47] WarKirby Magojiro: My inventory is refreshed
[17:47] Sidewinder Linden: ok good
[17:47] Sidewinder Linden: thanks guys... i'll reconfigure the beta preview over the next day or so... let me know if there are issues with the new config
[17:48] Sidewinder Linden: so back to "where are we"? how are things going... new issues, old things that need focuse?
[17:48] Sidewinder Linden: *focus even
[17:48] WarKirby Magojiro: Ryozu made a few issues
[17:48] WarKirby Magojiro: LSL physics controls not affecting avatars in landing mode
[17:48] WarKirby Magojiro: and also landing mode being triggered incorrectly
[17:49] Sidewinder Linden: if you have specific jira #'s for those i'll flag them... was going to go through these tomorrow
[17:49] WarKirby Magojiro will ge them
[17:49] Kitto Flora: Eyes are still messed up too
[17:50] Andrew Linden: right... landing mode needs work
[17:50] Andrew Linden: attachments should push landing avatars but not external pushes, I think that is how it works in Havok1, right?
[17:51] Andrew Linden: Kitto, are eyes messed up in Crash Me?
[17:51] WarKirby Magojiro: why not any pushes ?
[17:51] Andrew Linden: Sidewinder, have we had any reports of messed up eyes in the internal tests?
[17:51] Kitto Flora: On MG or Beta Crash Me?
[17:51] Andrew Linden: MG
[17:51] Kitto Flora: Duno, I'll send some one to 'look'
[17:52] Andrew Linden: Someone said Crash Me is currently closed.
[17:52] WarKirby Magojiro: has anyone checked now ?
[17:52] Sidewinder Linden: it was open a few hours ago... i thought
[17:52] Andrew Linden: I'll check a Havok4 region here on the MG at the end of the meeting.
[17:53] WarKirby Magojiro: getting those issues
[17:53] Dahlia Trimble: I just landed an alt on crash me
[17:53] WarKirby Magojiro: jira is a little slow today
[17:53] Kitto Flora: Crashe ME is open
[17:53] Kitto Flora: and eyes are ok
[17:53] Kitto Flora: But
[17:53] Kitto Flora: I did arrive via H1
[17:53] Kitto Flora: Or sather Kitta did
[17:53] Dahlia Trimble: its griefed with magenta "body parts"
[17:53] Aria Alexandria: I have a question.. I had quite a lot issues with llApplyImpulse.. totally behaving different than H1, is that something being looked on and known?
[17:54] WarKirby Magojiro:
[17:54] WarKirby Magojiro: this is an urler
[17:54] Kitto Flora: Crash Me has a TD of 0.05
[17:54] WarKirby Magojiro: you can click it to get to the listed issue
[17:54] WarKirby Magojiro:
[17:55] WarKirby Magojiro:
[17:55] Dahlia Trimble: I had to tp my alt back.. crash me is being seriously griefed
[17:55] WarKirby Magojiro: those 3 are ryozu's most recent havok 4 issues
[17:55] Sidewinder Linden: k thanks warkirby
[17:55] WarKirby Magojiro: Crash Me cannot be griefed
[17:55] Kitto Flora: Ops - make the 0.83..
[17:55] WarKirby Magojiro: it exists to be crashed :)
[17:55] Adz Childs: hehe
[17:55] Dahlia Trimble: lol well they were trying then ;)
[17:55] WarKirby Magojiro: and it's a lot better they crash that, than someone's store
[17:56] Kitto Flora: Oh its bouncing around. Its not crashed, but near useless
[17:56] Adz Childs: hehe what if its hosted on the same box
[17:56] Sidewinder Linden: yeah people have been "leaning on it" since it opened, but we want that ;)
[17:56] Sidewinder Linden: we want to know if there are any more crash modes left
[17:56] Sidewinder Linden: and it's got 30 minute return... so it'll mostly clean itsefl up
[17:56] Rex Cronon: aren't u supposed to crash "crash me" without using physics?
[17:57] Andrew Linden: You can crash it however you like.
[17:57] Adz Childs smiles devilishly
[17:57] Dahlia Trimble: wihy without?
[17:57] WarKirby Magojiro: we definitely need more of them
[17:57] Sidewinder Linden: no rex... that was an old sign... i had dan change it last night
[17:57] Andrew Linden: However, pushing the physics engine probably won't crash it.
[17:57] WarKirby Magojiro: that was before the havok 4 was added
[17:57] Sidewinder Linden: go for any crash you can ;)
[17:57] WarKirby Magojiro: dan set a challenge to crash it without physics
[17:57] WarKirby Magojiro: I did, twice
[17:57] Andrew Linden: The most likely modes are LSL crash bugs.
[17:57] Rex Cronon: ok
[17:57] WarKirby Magojiro: dropping 2048 scripts into a prim at once doesn't go down well, it seems
[17:57] Andrew Linden: The llSetCameraParams() bug is known, and affects Crash Me
[17:58] Kitto Flora: Reloggingdirectly into CrashMe sim on MG - eyes come up ok.
[17:58] Andrew Linden: It is fixed in some maintenance branch that is slowly moving toward release.
[17:58] WarKirby Magojiro: fixes seem to take an awfully long time to get to release
[17:58] WarKirby Magojiro: why isthat ?
[17:58] Andrew Linden: Warkirby, is that an attachment with 2048 scripts? Or a regular object?
[17:59] WarKirby Magojiro: just a regular prim
[17:59] WarKirby Magojiro: I reported it to dan
[17:59] Dahlia Trimble: how about crashing it with libsecondlife?
[17:59] Andrew Linden: The reason fixes are slower is that we have more QA processes in place
[17:59] WarKirby Magojiro: it was adding the scripts that causd it
[17:59] Kitto Flora: hamster physics shouts: leet haxorz for havok 4 uber pwnage wo0t!
[17:59] WarKirby Magojiro: I also suceeded in crashing the sim with roughly 400,000 scripts all listening and talking on channel 0
[18:00] Andrew Linden: Warkirby, an when you say "doesn't go down well" what does that mean? Crash or severe alg?
[18:00] Andrew Linden: lag?
[18:00] Sidewinder Linden: *blinks*
[18:00] WarKirby Magojiro: crash
[18:00] Sidewinder Linden: 400k scripts?!
[18:00] WarKirby Magojiro: the sim failed to add the object's inventory
[18:00] WarKirby Magojiro: crashed while attempting to
[18:00] Andrew Linden: Ah ok.
[18:00] Sidewinder Linden: and it was the sim that crashed, not the viewer?
[18:00] Dahlia Trimble: is it possible to have that many?
[18:00] Andrew Linden: Good, those crashes generate coredumps on the sim host.
[18:00] WarKirby Magojiro: yes, sidewinder. 800 prims with 500 scripts each
[18:01] Sidewinder Linden: kewl :)
[18:01] WarKirby Magojiro: that's 400k, I think
[18:01] Andrew Linden: I can examine the dumps to find the codepaths where the crashes are happening.
[18:01] WarKirby Magojiro: it was several months ago, in any case
[18:02] Sidewinder Linden: oh so these crashes were not recent?
[18:02] Andrew Linden: Oh ok.
[18:02] Sidewinder Linden: could you try them on the current beta preview or crash me?
[18:02] Sidewinder Linden: to see if they're still there - hopefully they're already gone
[18:02] WarKirby Magojiro: will do
[18:02] WarKirby Magojiro: I reported both to dan at the time
[18:02] Andrew Linden: Well Warkirby, go ahead and crash Crash Me, and we'll be able to fix those investigate the crash modes fairly easily.
[18:03] WarKirby Magojiro: kk
[18:03] Andrew Linden: Unfortunately Dan doesn't know how to debug a crash.
[18:03] Dahlia Trimble: I have an object that crashes H1 just fine but it wont crash H4
[18:03] Andrew Linden: He'd have to find a dev with time to look at it.
[18:04] Rex Cronon: oh, it wasn't the "crash me" sim that crashedd me. it was the bug island
[18:04] WarKirby Magojiro: what are the other sims around bug island?
[18:05] WarKirby Magojiro: textureTest, island for unit tests
[18:05] WarKirby Magojiro: those are intriguing, but not acessible
[18:05] Adz Childs: sounds interesting
[18:05] WarKirby Magojiro: Also, unrelated note. I hope there aren't any plans for retiring first look isle. It's very useful for framerate testing
[18:06] Adz Childs: well yeah you don't want people wondering around your unit tests. then they aren't unit test.. they are unit tests plus some strange avatar tests. ;)
[18:06] Andrew Linden: Here is a personal challenge... if you can crash "Crash Me" with a unique crash mode that I haven't seen before, then I'll reward you with L$10k. First 5 modes get rewards, Deadline is Sunday Midnight.
[18:06] Sidewinder Linden: hehe :)))
[18:06] Dahlia Trimble: lol Im trying ;)
[18:06] Adz Childs: can you give an example of a "crash mode"
[18:06] Sidewinder Linden: oh btw... not 5 of the same crash!!!
[18:06] Adz Childs: one you have found already
[18:06] WarKirby Magojiro: the sim will be lagged to death til then now, likely
[18:06] Rex Cronon: need a list of know crash mode
[18:07] Dahlia Trimble: can you relax the grey goo fence on crash me?
[18:07] Andrew Linden: Right, first 5 unique crash modes are gauranteed to get a reward.
[18:07] Andrew Linden: No, we won't be changing the greygoo fence.
[18:07] WarKirby Magojiro: what are the object rezzing limits on the fence like?
[18:07] Rex Cronon: doesn't make sense to try something that u already know that i can crash it
[18:07] Sidewinder Linden: But they have to be tested on the current code on Crash Me - not a report of something that happened "long ago" eh? :)
[18:07] Adz Childs: it would be nice to know the known crash modes to get an idea of how specific they are.
[18:07] Andrew Linden: The only crash mode that I currently know about is llSetCameraParams()
[18:07] WarKirby Magojiro: I was thinking of making a minigun, and wondering what's a good rate of fire
[18:08] WarKirby Magojiro: obviously, the realistic 6000 RPM is out of the question
[18:08] Andrew Linden: So Warkirby, sounds like you found a few that are different. But you'll have to give me a coredump to get a reward.
[18:08] WarKirby Magojiro: now someone else is going to steal them -_-
[18:08] Adz Childs: how will i get associated with the crash...
[18:08] Adz Childs: i'll file a bug report?
[18:08] Dahlia Trimble: good question
[18:09] Andrew Linden: Send me an email when you crash it, telling me when it happened.
[18:09] Andrew Linden: The coredumps get a timestamp.
[18:09] Adz Childs nods.
[18:09] Rex Cronon: i don't think u have enought "crash me" islands
[18:09] Adz Childs: hehe if you name them all crash me, then no one can complain!
[18:09] Rex Cronon: it will most likely be laggy as hell
[18:09] Andrew Linden: You can file the bug report if you like but not required in this contest.
[18:10] Sidewinder Linden: rex - i'll see if i can get a couple added tomorrow... might not be till later in the day though
[18:10] Sidewinder Linden: and remember - you CAN do this on the beta preview
[18:10] Sidewinder Linden: crash me onthe main system is not the only option right?
[18:10] Andrew Linden: Yes, I'll accept crashes on the beta preview, but you need to tell me the region name and the time.
[18:10] Dahlia Trimble: with everyone trying at once it may be hard to know it was your test that did it
[18:10] Sidewinder Linden: but it has to be a havok4 region, not one of the marked havok1 regions on the beta preview
[18:10] Andrew Linden: So I can find the right coredump.
[18:10] Kitto Flora: Crash Me sim - is Full. Hard to test for crashes.
[18:11] Sidewinder Linden: Oh, good point! Please track the datetime of the crash, so that it will help to find the right core dump file ok?
[18:11] Andrew Linden: Ok, testing on the Preview is fine.
[18:11] Andrew Linden: I need timestamp and region name
[18:11] Andrew Linden: If you send the email immediately after then that is a close enough timestamp.
[18:12] Kitto Flora: Sim Prim useage 14,999 out of 15000
[18:12] Rex Cronon: so it doesn't matter on what sim, or on what grid , as long is havok4?
[18:12] Dahlia Trimble: whats your email address?
[18:12] Andrew Linden: Yes, any grid, as long as it is Havok4.
[18:12] Andrew Linden:
[18:12] WarKirby Magojiro: uh, Crash me, I meant
[18:12] WarKirby Magojiro: havok 4 is full of penises
[18:12] Andrew Linden: You can also send me IM. It gets routed to my email still.
[18:13] Dahlia Trimble: IM on beta?
[18:13] Adz Childs: instead of autoreturn maybe it should be flushed like a sandbox
[18:13] Rex Cronon: this contest, applies only to the persons that r here, or can we tell others about it?
[18:13] Andrew Linden: I believe IM on beta goes to my email.
[18:14] Andrew Linden: The contest is open to all.
[18:14] Andrew Linden: I'll be posting this transcript to the wiki
[18:14] Sabina Stenvaag: whew--i jsut told a group sorry!
[18:14] Andrew Linden:
[18:15] Rex Cronon: if u put this on the main blog, u might have lots of comments in a very short time:)
[18:15] WarKirby Magojiro: Crash me is under attack. by me
[18:15] WarKirby Magojiro: :)
[18:15] Arawn Spitteler: $35, if my latest vehicle performs as it has been, I'll do some Christmas shopping
[18:15] Sidewinder Linden: heh
[18:15] Sidewinder Linden: good luck warkirby
[18:15] Andrew Linden: Ok, I'm going to have to run soon.
[18:15] WarKirby Magojiro: I think I crashed it
[18:15] WarKirby Magojiro: everything stopped responding
[18:15] Sabina Stenvaag: hee hee--thanks for the chat!
[18:15] Andrew Linden: Which one?
[18:15] WarKirby Magojiro: someone care to check?
[18:15] WarKirby Magojiro: Crash Me
[18:15] WarKirby Magojiro: I sent my alt along :)
[18:16] Sabina Stenvaag: wow--merry chirstmas!
[18:16] Andrew Linden: MG or beta?
[18:16] Kitto Flora: MG
[18:16] Andrew Linden: Ok, I'll look now...
[18:16] Kitto Flora: I'm getting no packets from sim now
[18:16] Adz Childs: is it possible to be the subject of an abuse report on Beta or Crasme?
[18:16] Mego Ryba: hey gtg tty all later :)
[18:16] Adz Childs: and actionable AR?
[18:16] Sidewinder Linden: adz... not if you're doing something we asked you to try to crash it
[18:16] Andrew Linden: Warkirby, no crash is recorded yet, but the db I'm querying may be a little out of date.
[18:16] Adz Childs: roger.
[18:16] Rex Cronon: i think by sunday, smoke is going to come aout of all the sims that run havok4:)
[18:16] Sidewinder Linden: but if you abusing the tos by harassing other people, that is another story...
[18:16] Rex Cronon: byt mego
[18:17] WarKirby Magojiro: attempting to log him back in there
[18:17] Kitto Flora: looks like is not responding
[18:17] Andrew Linden: Oh... no, probably crashed. No stats for >200 seconds.
[18:17] Adz Childs: got it... what if my attempt to crash it annoys people
[18:17] Dahlia Trimble: k I IM'd a group to try to crash H4
[18:17] Adz Childs: ;)
[18:18] WarKirby Magojiro: doesn't appear to be working
[18:18] WarKirby Magojiro: I'd guess it's down
[18:18] Sidewinder Linden: adz... apply common sense...:) if you are doing this, and it crashes fine. if you keep doing it over and over without a new finding, and it's to annoy people, and in particular if they ask you to stop and you don't... ;)
[18:18] Kitto Flora: Carsh Me MG is now red on the map
[18:18] WarKirby Magojiro: yay !
[18:18] WarKirby Magojiro: I'll email you the details, andrew
[18:18] Andrew Linden: yeah, something is wrong, but the coredump doesn't exist yet
[18:18] Andrew Linden: It may be in the middle of creating it.
[18:18] Andrew Linden: This could take a few minutes.
[18:19] Kitto Flora: Core dump including 14,990 magennta cocks?
[18:19] Sidewinder Linden: while there's a break in the action... i'm not remembering, is blue a teen grid sim?
[18:19] Dahlia Trimble: lmao
[18:19] WarKirby Magojiro: yes, there will be that too
[18:19] Sabina Stenvaag: wow!
[18:19] WarKirby Magojiro: but they weren't doing much
[18:19] Sidewinder Linden: hehehe
[18:20] WarKirby Magojiro: Does the teen grid have a geographical map location?
[18:20] WarKirby Magojiro: is it a cloacked continent ?
[18:20] WarKirby Magojiro: cloaked*
[18:20] Kitto Flora: Also - cant escape from CrashMe
[18:21] Andrew Linden: Ooof Warkirby, you bumped the memory footprint of that simulator process to 63%
[18:21] WarKirby Magojiro: :)
[18:21] Andrew Linden: I think it is dumping core, but it will probably take some time.
[18:21] WarKirby Magojiro: that'll be a lot to read through, I think
[18:21] Andrew Linden: I'll check it later. I've got to go now.
[18:22] Andrew Linden: Warkirby, send me an email reminding me anyway.
[18:22] WarKirby Magojiro: kk
[18:22] Rex Cronon: bye andrew
[18:22] WarKirby Magojiro: will do
[18:22] WarKirby Magojiro: writing it now
[18:22] Andrew Linden: Thanks.
[18:22] Sidewinder Linden: thanks very much guys
[18:22] Dahlia Trimble: bye :)
[18:22] Sabina Stenvaag: thans you!
[18:22] Kitto Flora: Byebye Andrew
[18:22] Kitto Flora: Byebye Sidewinder
[18:22] Sidewinder Linden: i'll likely reconfigure the beta preview tomorrow, so grab anything you need fromt eh existing regions tonight, before they get wiped, ok?
[18:23] Rex Cronon: bye sidwinder
[18:23] Adz Childs: B-bye!!! :D
[18:23] Sidewinder Linden: bye rex - thanks
[18:25] Arawn Spitteler: When my vehicle crashed, in to a sim corner, the crash report wouldn't have told anything, would it?
[18:26] Andrew Linden: The crash's coredump contains a complete binary copy of what was on the region when it crashed
[18:26] Andrew Linden: however, not all the data is easy to browse
[18:26] Andrew Linden: What IS easy to browse is thefunction calls that were active on the stack when it happened
[18:26] WarKirby Watanabe: there will be a lot of it, I suspect
[18:26] Arawn Spitteler: It was probably just me that crashed
[18:26] Andrew Linden: And that is usually enough to know.
[18:27] Andrew Linden: So, I rely on the correlation on your report that it crashed and the timestamp of the crash.
[18:27] Andrew Linden: I also have logs, which sometimes provide info.
[18:27] Andrew Linden: and the coredump does have the owner_id of the crashy object, however it takes a little extra work to read it.
[18:28] Andrew Linden: Good luck. Thanks for coming.
[18:28] Arawn Spitteler: My map has Crash Me unchanged, though warkirby brought back one of the bots I see.
[18:29] Andrew Linden: Yes, Warkirby did crash the region. The coredump is there .
[18:29] WarKirby Watanabe: bots ?
[18:29] Arawn Spitteler: alts
[18:29] WarKirby Watanabe: I'm not a bot!
[18:29] Arawn Spitteler: I see two
[18:29] WarKirby Watanabe: it's called -multiple
[18:30] WarKirby Watanabe: runing multiple clients is easy :D
[18:30] Arawn Spitteler: Let's se what the map does, when I try to go.
[18:31] Arawn Spitteler: Map looks okay, but I've twice failed to teleport "in a timely fashion."
[18:31] Andrew Linden: Hrm... the coredump is 2.9 GB. Warkirby, I think you probably crashed it for no memory.
[18:32] WarKirby Magojiro: :)
[18:32] Andrew Linden: I'm not sure how to examine a coredump that size. It probably can't be held in memory
[18:32] Andrew Linden: I certainly can't hold it on that sim host... it would kill the performance for all regions on it
[18:33] WarKirby Magojiro: yikes
[18:33] WarKirby Magojiro: email is sent in any case
[18:33] WarKirby Magojiro: hopefully that will provide enough info to fix it
[18:33] Andrew Linden: Warkirby, you described how you did it?
[18:33] WarKirby Magojiro: yes
[18:33] WarKirby Magojiro: and included the script
[18:33] Andrew Linden: Ok I'l read it. Thanks.
[18:33] Sidewinder Linden: gj warkirby :)
[18:33] WarKirby Magojiro: will send emails if I stumble upon any more
[18:34] Sidewinder Linden: thanks
[18:34] Sidewinder Linden: k well i have to head out as well... see you guys
[18:34] WarKirby Magojiro: 2.9 Gb. wow
[18:34] Andrew Linden: Ah yes, I see.
[18:34] WarKirby Magojiro: I wonder if notepad can open a file that size...
[18:34] Sidewinder Linden: oh?
[18:34] Second Life: Your 3 objects have been returned to your inventory lost and found folder by Governor Linden near parcel 'Brampton Linden Stage' at Brampton 109.479, 151.587 due to parcel auto return.
[18:34] Sidewinder Linden: ROFLMAO
[18:34] Sidewinder Linden: "mayyyyybe :)"
[18:34] WarKirby Magojiro: It struggled with my 35Mb chatlog file
[18:35] Andrew Linden: Bounty is paid.
[18:35] Sidewinder Linden: notepad2 does a bit better job
[18:35] WarKirby Magojiro: thank you very much :)
[18:35] Sidewinder Linden: emacs works i think
[18:35] Andrew Linden: VIM!
[18:35] Arawn Spitteler: Merry Christmas
[18:35] WarKirby Magojiro: vim ?
[18:35] Andrew Linden: vim = vi improved
[18:36] WarKirby Magojiro: what is vi ?
[18:36] Sidewinder Linden: heh uh oh religious flame wars ensue ;)
[18:36] WarKirby Magojiro: >.>
[18:36] Andrew Linden: I see, you're pulling my leg.
[18:37] Sidewinder Linden: in any case... thanks again guys see you soon
[18:37] Chick Zhangsun: hi...guys...
[18:37] Andrew Linden: I have no sense of humor. Please inlude the winky emoticon or some other handy hint when cracking jokes ;-)
[18:37] Sidewinder Linden: hehe okie :))
[18:37] Sidewinder Linden: bye