User:Andrew Linden/Office Hours/2007 12 27

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Transcript of Andrew Linden's office hours:

[17:00] Buck Coeyman: hey axl
[17:00] Grier Ireland: hey guys
[17:00] Buck Coeyman: where you been
[17:01] Arawn Spitteler: Did I actually ma nage, to cose Crash Me?
[17:01] Andrew Linden: Hello Arawn.
[17:01] Arawn Spitteler: Hi, Andrew
[17:02] Arawn Spitteler: Long as nobody else is here, how soon would llDamp PrimitiveParams be likely to be considered?
[17:02] Arawn Spitteler: They might think you've the week off.
[17:02] Buck Coeyman: alx het jj
[17:02] Tregok Boa gave you Assault.
[17:03] Buck Coeyman: hey grier
[17:03] Arawn Spitteler: I didn't see Zero this morning, so we don't know what's happening in San Francisco
[17:03] Grier Ireland: hello buck...how are you?
[17:03] Buck Coeyman: great just got new car
[17:03] Grier Ireland: cool...
[17:03] Buck Coeyman: and bike
[17:03] Andrew Linden: I dunno if Zero is holding hours today, or this week.
[17:04] Grier Ireland: really..should be fun..
[17:04] Andrew Linden: I dunno if he announced any time away.
[17:04] Buck Coeyman: and boughtboat
[17:04] Buck Coeyman: and new protecton
[17:04] Grier Ireland: wow...where do you keep it all?
[17:04] Buck Coeyman: my place
[17:05] Arawn Spitteler: I think he's 1PM Tuesday, and 10:30AM Thursday
[17:05] Grier Ireland: you have your own place? thats nice..
[17:05] Buck Coeyman: ok
[17:05] Andrew Linden: ok, I was just trying to take care of some IM's.
[17:05] Buck Coeyman: thanks
[17:05] Buck Coeyman: axl where did you go
[17:06] Buck Coeyman: you look good
[17:06] Andrew Linden: Arawn, you normally attend Zero's office hours?
[17:06] Grier Ireland: i talked to axl the other nite, how is he?
[17:06] Buck Coeyman: he got lost
[17:06] Buck Coeyman: lets go
[17:06] Arawn Spitteler: I like to. I'm a long way from having a compiler to hack the viewer, but someday hope to build a VEHICLE_TYPE_SIM
[17:07] Buck Coeyman: hey what to you
[17:07] Andrew Linden: frageurs, the office hour transcripts get published online, on the SecondLife Wiki
[17:07] Buck Coeyman: you where gone
[17:07] Axl Ronmark: hi, i was away
[17:07] Andrew Linden: if you're willing to have your issue be posted there, you're welcome to sit and bring it to the table
[17:08] Buck Coeyman: just got back
[17:08] Buck Coeyman: going to try new weopens
[17:08] Andrew Linden: If it is a Havok4 issue then it should definitely be discussed here.
[17:08] frageurs Hock: well i dont have a paticular issue, i am just worried, i have more then 23 diffrnt types of cars, tested them on havok4 none of theml work perfectly
[17:08] Buck Coeyman: by
[17:08] frageurs Hock: i am really worried becuase if havok4 comes, iw ont have time to update it all and all the unhappy customers
[17:08] Andrew Linden: Ah yes, vehicles are known to have problems
[17:09] Andrew Linden: especially ground vehicles
[17:09] Arawn Spitteler: That would be a Havoc 4 Issue
[17:09] frageurs Hock: and all the ARS they will file agaisnt us
[17:09] Andrew Linden: we're going to start working on those again next week
[17:09] Andrew Linden: unfortunately it isn't clear how much I can repair
[17:09] frageurs Hock: do u think u can maybe make sure atleast they work with ours ?
[17:09] frageurs Hock: i mean i tried most of our cars, its a pure joke there
[17:09] Andrew Linden: there are some issues to do with turning that I know I can fixe
[17:09] Arawn Spitteler: I don't know whether we're scheduled to have high school level surface friction
[17:10] Andrew Linden: however there are some issues with ground collisions and friction that will be harder
[17:10] frageurs Hock: we spend hours scripting them rite now, added downforce feature,adjustable handlign etc;.
[17:10] frageurs Hock: so if havok4 introduces, we gota rescript all our cars ?
[17:10] Grier Ireland: uh oh..how did he manage that?wow buck..thats nice!!!
[17:10] Buck Coeyman shouts: hey grier her is one
[17:11] Andrew Linden: We're going to try to maintain as much vehicle behavior as possible
[17:11] Arawn Spitteler: Wouldn't that be a matter of Havoc 4 Funtionality?
[17:11] frageurs Hock: i am really paniced coz of havok4
[17:11] Arawn Spitteler: Crash Me 3 wasn't fit to test anything, when last I was there.
[17:11] frageurs Hock: i have too many cars and it takes hours and horus to rescript everything
[17:12] frageurs Hock: and thousands of cars already sold.. how can i track everyone
[17:12] Andrew Linden: I don't have a good picture of all the problems with vehicles atm, I've been focusing on something else so I've been piling the vehicle bugs up
[17:12] frageurs Hock: want me to give you some cars so u can try them ?
[17:13] Andrew Linden: Sure, I'll take a few cars, or a folder of cars. I've already got several test demos in my inventory from other vehicle scripters.
[17:13] frageurs Hock: mines are unique
[17:13] Andrew Linden: Also, on the jira.secondlife.com website there are several vehicle bugs already entered.
[17:13] frageurs Hock gave you M.HXX Red Edition.
[17:13] frageurs Hock gave you M.H Prenza 07 Turbo Black Edition 2.0.
[17:14] Andrew Linden: I expect that many of those bugs are duplicates of the problems you're seeing.
[17:14] frageurs Hock gave you M.H Galla52 Red Edition 2.0.
[17:14] Andrew Linden: Ok that is enough.
[17:14] frageurs Hock: i am sending u all sorta cars we made
[17:14] frageurs Hock: please take into account previous work too its too much for us to rescript all
[17:14] Andrew Linden: Note, I don't have a good idea of how they are behaving wrong yet.
[17:14] frageurs Hock: i discuesed this problm with most of the major car dealrs in SL,franchis,luca,etc.. we are all kinda stressed
[17:15] Andrew Linden: Unless I've got a nice clear description of the problem then I'm inclined to focus on the entered bugs first
[17:15] frageurs Hock: you know we all have RL comitments too so cnat spend another 100 horus rescriptign all agian ..
[17:15] frageurs Hock: yea
[17:15] frageurs Hock: i see
[17:15] Andrew Linden: then once I've fixed a bunch of vehicle bugs and think I've got things working better I'll ask you to retest.
[17:15] frageurs Hock: so from the rumors ive heard please make me feel abit better
[17:16] frageurs Hock: Hovok 4 is supose to be compatible with the previous cars ?
[17:16] frageurs Hock: or it wont work at all ?
[17:16] Andrew Linden: State the rumors and I can tell you which ones are true.
[17:16] Arawn Spitteler: I thought it was not to be noticed
[17:16] frageurs Hock: ok
[17:17] frageurs Hock: Will Havok4 be compatible or is supose to be compatible with the cars currtly on the grid ?
[17:17] frageurs Hock: Will the prim limit still be 31 ?
[17:17] Andrew Linden: The intention is to make Havok4 as compatible as possible with Havok1 behavior.
[17:17] Andrew Linden: However...
[17:17] Andrew Linden: there are some differences that will be unavoidable.
[17:17] Andrew Linden: Some examples are:
[17:18] Andrew Linden: (1) penetrating dynamic objects will be pushed apart -- the penetration resolution code is built into the Havok4 solver and is hard to disable across the board
[17:19] Andrew Linden: we've already dissabled it for a few cases (selected objects don't collide with their duplicates when penetrating)
[17:19] Andrew Linden: (2) friction/conservation_of_energy is different for collisions
[17:19] Andrew Linden: this is the main thing that affects ground vehicles that is so hard to match with Havok1 behavior
[17:20] Andrew Linden: I'm going to try to fix it, however it is not clear yet how well I'll be in that regard
[17:20] frageurs Hock: i see
[17:20] Andrew Linden: (3) the order of operations in the integration step has changed... gravity is done after the Action::apply() step
[17:21] Andrew Linden: which mostly affects hover effects, and actions that used to defeat gravity
[17:21] Andrew Linden: by "action" I mean a instance of a C++ class that pushes an object every simulation timestep
[17:21] Andrew Linden: such as vehicles, hover, MoveToTarget, buoyancy, etc...
[17:22] frageurs Hock: I see
[17:22] Andrew Linden: LSL calls that create a behavior that relies on some code being run every physics step
[17:22] frageurs Hock: Will be have like a month of notice in advnace before the release of havok4 ?
[17:22] Andrew Linden: There is probably a (4) and a (5) but I can't think of what they are at the moment. Those are the big differences that come to mind
[17:23] Andrew Linden: Oh yeah... (4) avatar motion may be slightly different
[17:23] Andrew Linden: Havok4 is currently in trial now
[17:24] Andrew Linden: but we were looking for early adopters who do not need vehicles to work right, but have crashy regions
[17:24] Arawn Spitteler: is Vineland a test-bed?
[17:24] frageurs Hock: Can you give me a rought estimate about the time it will be released ?
[17:24] Andrew Linden: the hope is that we can find some people who like how Havok4 works now... reducing crash rates... but don't mind the current bugs and problems
[17:24] Andrew Linden: Those trials will expand over the first quarter of 2008
[17:25] frageurs Hock: Andrew... my problem is my car collection adn the amound of customers i got
[17:25] Andrew Linden: Eventually we'll have to force Havok4 on everybody, however we'll be trying to fix the vehicle bugs and others before we do. As many as possible.
[17:25] frageurs Hock: people will turn crazy on me.. i am a RL student and have to do RL studies too nad if people get pissed and ic ant script on time i can be kicked out easily
[17:25] Andrew Linden: I expect the project to complete in 2008.Q1
[17:25] Andrew Linden: so... probably a month at least, but maybe not two.
[17:25] frageurs Hock: a month from now ?
[17:26] Marishka Blackburn: hello
[17:26] frageurs Hock: HI marishka :)
[17:26] Andrew Linden: At least one month, would be my guess.
[17:26] Marishka Blackburn: what are we all doing ?
[17:26] frageurs Hock: after 1 month you would probibily launch it on the main grid ?
[17:26] Andrew Linden: If we were "done" today I would expect it to take another two weeks at minimum before it could be joined to the main trunk of the codebase.
[17:27] Andrew Linden: So I think the Havok4 project to "ship" everywhere closer to two months than one.
[17:27] frageurs Hock: will the people and business owners get a notice in advnace of the final version adn give us the oppurtunity to make our stuff compatible with havok4?
[17:28] Andrew Linden: Yes, we'll be posting info about the progress of the project. On the blog, and more details in these office hours.
[17:28] frageurs Hock: oh i see, what will be the prim limit ?
[17:28] frageurs Hock: for phyiscs?
[17:29] frageurs Hock: Beacuse i read it will increase but some people tell me it wont
[17:29] Arawn Spitteler tells Marishka: These are the office hours for the Physics EngineUpgrade
[17:29] Andrew Linden: What prim limit are you asking about exactly? There are at least three prim limits that I know of.
[17:29] Marishka Blackburn: oh ok I am sorry
[17:29] Marishka Blackburn: I will leave
[17:29] frageurs Hock: Physics
[17:29] frageurs Hock: for cars
[17:29] frageurs Hock: atm its 31 prims
[17:30] Andrew Linden: The prim limit will not be changing. That limit now has more to do with border crossing than physics.
[17:30] Andrew Linden: Er... yes it is going up a modest 1 prim to 32, since the 31 was always an "off by one" error.
[17:30] frageurs Hock: will havok4 improve the boarder crossing ?
[17:30] frageurs Hock: atm i have to admist its pretty bad
[17:30] Andrew Linden: But a significant increase will have to wait for other improvements.
[17:31] frageurs Hock: is eco linden part of the testing team ?
[17:31] Andrew Linden: Havok4 does not improve border crossing. That has more to do with the serialization/deserialization of objects and sending them across the net to a new host.
[17:32] Andrew Linden: There is a project we're calling "object transport" that will probably involve some attention and hopeful improvements to border crossing.
[17:32] frageurs Hock: the thing that shocked me the most is that my cars dont drive on havok4,they kinda fly over and aorund and it really scares me
[17:33] Tanath Seelowe: hello:)
[17:33] Arawn Spitteler: Hi, Tanath
[17:33] Andrew Linden: In a sense frageurs, that is "good news" that you're starting to pay attention to Havok4.
[17:33] Andrew Linden: The project has been in open preview for months now.
[17:33] Andrew Linden: We need people to go in and test their stuff.
[17:33] frageurs Hock: Oh:) dont owrry i have been following you people sinc ethe beginning but never told oyu
[17:34] frageurs Hock: i like staying in my corner and doign things, but this was too much for me
[17:34] frageurs Hock: i like to be ready for the future and havok4 is just make it unstable for me as i cant predict how the car will react
[17:34] Andrew Linden: We've got some regulars who go in and test stuff and provide a lot of feedback.
[17:34] frageurs Hock: i am ready to help you in all sorts, i have more then 52 types of cars
[17:35] Andrew Linden: But this project is going to transition slowly, and so I expect a bunch of people to start to get vocal.
[17:35] frageurs Hock: i NEED to be ready for havok4 in all circumstances
[17:35] Andrew Linden: But, when it comes to vehicles... you'll just have to wait for us to start fixing some of those bugs.
[17:36] frageurs Hock: i thoguht u guys were tying my cars, i have seen several lindens buying cars from me so i thought you guys bought it for havok4
[17:36] Andrew Linden: As I said, I'm planning on starting vehicles next week.
[17:36] Andrew Linden: No, there are a lot of Lindens out there, and I'm the lead on the Havok4 project, with only three other people helping me out.
[17:37] Andrew Linden: Sidewinder has been buying a few vehicles and other objects and testing them.
[17:37] frageurs Hock: me and my friend can help you out we are all ready
[17:37] frageurs Hock: me it wazs more of ECo linden
[17:37] Andrew Linden: But the two dev's are typically just focusing on all the bugs on their plate.
[17:37] Andrew Linden: Ooops. I should have said four other people. I've also got Dan Linden in QA who tests stuff and verifies fixed bugs.
[17:38] frageurs Hock: nice
[17:39] Andrew Linden: This would be my advice frageurs: there are different levels of effort you can take for these vehicle problems:
[17:39] Andrew Linden: (1) active -- browse all the vehicle bugs on jira.secondlife.com and enter new ones that you know about
[17:39] frageurs Hock: my aim is that my cars should at least a minimum drive fairly on teh road, the small bugs we can fix that over time
[17:40] Andrew Linden: (2) less active -- wait for me to take a pass at fixing vehicles, and then retest your vehicles and enter bugs for the ones still broken (hopefully there will be fewer broken ones once I get a chance to try to fix some of the known bugs)
[17:40] frageurs Hock: sure
[17:41] frageurs Hock: we can do that atleast now i know someone cares about me :)
[17:41] Andrew Linden: Ok cool. Francis Chung also deals in ground vehicles and has entered a number of bugs and details about how his do not work quite right.
[17:41] frageurs Hock: Francis is a very good friend of mine
[17:41] Andrew Linden: Cubey Terra has also entered several bugs.
[17:41] frageurs Hock: he is the one who told me about the problms
[17:42] Andrew Linden: Ah good, Francis is spreading the word.
[17:42] frageurs Hock: hehe yea
[17:42] frageurs Hock: well his cars are pretty ok with some bugs
[17:43] Andrew Linden: Anybody have some other (non-vehicle) issues or questions?
[17:43] Andrew Linden: Arawn, you were saying that you don't have a compiler to build the viewer source code?
[17:44] Andrew Linden: Arawn, what platform are you using? Windows, Mac, or Linux?
[17:44] Arawn Spitteler: Windows XP, If I've anything lying about, it's for older Windows
[17:45] frageurs Hock: Ok i am off, Thanks alot Andrew
[17:45] Andrew Linden: I was under the impression that there was a "free as in beer" or very cheap version of Visual Studio that could compile the project.
[17:46] Arawn Spitteler: I'd never asked
[17:46] Andrew Linden: Linux is free, so you could install that and have a build environment.
[17:46] Andrew Linden: But there is a learning curve there.
[17:46] Arawn Spitteler: Yeah, Linux has a something, didn't really works; wants a seperate machine
[17:46] Andrew Linden: Arawn, your best bet would be to check around the wiki.secondlife.com site for info on how to build the viewer
[17:47] Andrew Linden: I think there are several pages of info and HOWTO's
[17:47] Arawn Spitteler: Okay, I know a Technical Obsolescent, who'd like to return to business.
[17:48] Arawn Spitteler: Her husband managed to outspend his retirement
[17:48] TW Whiteberry: Heya Grier
[17:48] Tanath Seelowe: /hug frag
[17:48] Grier Ireland: hey hon
[17:48] Tanath gives frageurs a big hug.
[17:48] Andrew Linden: You saying she's thinking about starting business in SL? Or she might be able to help you figure out how to compile the viewer?
[17:49] Arawn Spitteler: She's a quarter million in debt, so SL Business won't cut the mustard.
[17:49] Tanath Seelowe: /hug frag
[17:49] Andrew Linden: Ouch.
[17:49] Tanath gives frageurs a big hug.
[17:49] Tanath gives frageurs a VERY BIG hug.
[17:49] Arawn Spitteler: Rebuilding the Documentation Paradigm might be a start
[17:50] Andrew Linden: What do you mean "Documentation Paradigm"?
[17:50] Andrew Linden: Like... competing with PDF or MicroSoft Word?
[17:51] Andrew Linden: Or are you suggesting we change how SL is documented?
[17:51] Arawn Spitteler: I don't even know what those are, unless you mean the style of output? No, more like, how can Tech Writers demand respect amongst the Geeks
[17:52] Arawn Spitteler: SL is probably ahead of the curve, so would offer a good perspective
[17:53] Andrew Linden: Yeah, good question about how tech writes can get respect. Speaking as a "geek" I've got high standards.
[17:53] Arawn Spitteler: When a programmer uses a structured model, he doesn't lose himself as easily, but an Object Oriented paradigm allows others to use his packages blindly
[17:53] Andrew Linden: That said, I've been impressed with how well wiki's work. I'm pretty much a wiki convert.
[17:54] Arawn Spitteler: In theory, even I could enter into a wiki, but I still haven't accepted it as possible
[17:54] Andrew Linden: yes, definitely. You should try editing the wiki.secondlife.com pages.
[17:55] Andrew Linden: Start with the first spelling or grammar typo you find ;-)
[17:56] Arawn Spitteler: Given how well Geeks study English... Could I use the word Asymptote?
[17:56] Andrew Linden: Sure, as long as you use it correctly.
[17:56] Andrew Linden: If you think your readers won't know what it is then hyperlink it to wikipedia.
[17:57] Arawn Spitteler: Grammar is normally taught all wrong, by the way, it's not a bunch of rules, as teachers believe.
[17:57] Arawn Spitteler: Where do I find the word Asymptote?
[17:57] Andrew Linden: Really? I thought grammar was a bunch of rules. I've got a book somewhere that I bought at the end of high school that is a great reference for the rules.
[17:58] Arawn Spitteler: If grammar were only rules, there'd be no irony. Grammar is a game, where we try to communicate ideas.
[17:59] Andrew Linden: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asymptote
[17:59] Andrew Linden: Huh... I would have thought that irony was linearly independent from grammar in most cases.
[18:00] Arawn Spitteler: I'm also wondering how to find the Jira
[18:00] snaibi Meili: hiiiiiiiiiii
[18:00] Andrew Linden: jira.secondlife.com
[18:00] TW Whiteberry: Heya Snaibi
[18:00] Grier Ireland: hello
[18:00] Arawn Spitteler: I'll have to ask, at the Documentation Depot, tommorrow,
[18:00] snaibi Meili: : )
[18:01] snaibi Meili: u look good
[18:01] Arawn Spitteler: http://jira.secondlife.com
[18:01] Andrew Linden: you can find the transcripts of these office hours via: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User:Andre_Linden
[18:01] Andrew Linden: oops... typo
[18:01] Andrew Linden: that would be Andrew_Linden
[18:01] Arawn Spitteler: I have a lot of trouble, finding things I've seen before.
[18:02] Andrew Linden: I can usually google and find the old pages that I've once found
[18:02] Andrew Linden: four well chosen keywords, or a quoted phrase from the page usually works for me
[18:03] Andrew Linden: Some things I bookmark, but I bookmark into folders so I don't get lost in a flat list of bookmarks.
[18:04] Arawn Spitteler: Yeah, I was just lecturing, in last night's class, rename your object, or you'll have a lost and found filled with Object
[18:04] Arawn Spitteler: Ever hear of a guy named Lucus?
[18:04] Andrew Linden: Not that I recall. Got a last name? Doesn't ring a bell.
[18:04] Arawn Spitteler: I don't know where Stanford is from San Francisco, but that's where he wrote a book, on Organic Chemistry
[18:05] Andrew Linden: Stanford is south of SF. West of San Jose.
[18:06] Andrew Linden: Well, I'm going to have to run very soon.
[18:06] Arawn Spitteler: Might have been Lucas... Before Lucas, Isaac Asimove knew enough Organic Chemistry to be a Scientist, but Lucas wrote a book, advancing Organic Chemistry from a Laboratory Study to a Science, and Asimove became a Science Fiction Writer.
[18:06] Arawn Spitteler: Good chatting.
[18:07] Andrew Linden: Yes, it was. There is a lot to learn in O-Chem.
[18:07] Arawn Spitteler: I'm having trouble navigating the projects of Jira. I don't know what to report where
[18:07] Andrew Linden: These days the vast majority if scientists are specialists.
[18:07] Arawn Spitteler: There is now, it used to be lab notes
[18:07] Andrew Linden: Generalists tend to wander out to become writers, engineers, or some other technically tangent field.
[18:08] Andrew Linden: Er... generalists or non-masters.
[18:08] Arawn Spitteler: Ever hear of Factors?
[18:08] Andrew Linden: No, in what context?
[18:08] Arawn Spitteler: People, who purchase from the cottage producers, so they can wholesale the merchandise. I think Factories might be named for them
[18:09] Andrew Linden: Ah, no I hadn't heard the term used for that, however I understand how such a niche would exist.
[18:09] Andrew Linden: Ok see you around Arawn. Gott go.
[18:09] Arawn Spitteler: Intellectual Factors, might be a concept
[18:10] Arawn Spitteler: and we have to do something about Damping 'Primitive Params
[18:10] Arawn Spitteler: I've a set of wings, I could show
[18:10] Arawn Spitteler: Looks good on my viewer, but probably not on yours
[18:11] Andrew Linden: Ah, you mean we should interpolate between prim params? To smooth the effect?
[18:11] Arawn Spitteler: Yeah, and I think it would help us towards the Joint Problem
[18:12] Andrew Linden: I'd rather write some prim animation tools, to make it more of a viewer-side effect
[18:12] Andrew Linden: Such prim animation is a load on the simulator
[18:12] Andrew Linden: however... not for attachments in Havok4. We've fixed that problem.
[18:12] Arawn Spitteler: So, we'd be able to use llTargetOmega on wheels?
[18:13] Andrew Linden: No... wheels need special handling. llTargetOmega applies to entire linked sets atm
[18:13] Andrew Linden: and will forevermore
[18:13] Andrew Linden: since so much content relies on its behavior to not change
[18:13] Andrew Linden: No... for wheels we'll have to add new stuff... llWheelSomethingOrOther()
[18:13] Andrew Linden: Cheers.