User:Andrew Linden/Office Hours/2008 10 02

From Second Life Wiki
Jump to: navigation, search

Transcript of Andrew Linden's office hours:

[17:20] Leendert Meriman gave you Leendert Meriman Phantom train collisions.
[17:21] Sindy Tsure: heya andrew
[17:21] Kitto Flora: I didint try this before
[17:21] Andrew Linden: hello, I got totally sidetracked today
[17:21] Kitto Flora: Trying it in a new very weird vehicle
[17:22] Arawn Spitteler: hi, Andrew, come join us, we're just making bets, on whether Simon will show
[17:22] Rex Cronon: hi andrew
[17:22] Kitto Flora: Hello Andrew
[17:22] Andrew Linden: unfortunately I can't stay too late, I've got to be somehwere before 19:00
[17:22] Kitto Flora: Yo uare somewhere already :)
[17:22] Andrew Linden: yes, but not that somewhere
[17:23] Sindy Tsure: can't just teleport there??
[17:23] Kitto Flora things 'over the rainbow'
[17:23] Arawn Spitteler: Have your wife go there, with a streaming Server. I keep telling CG to get one for his airplane
[17:23] Andrew Linden: maybe these hours can get along withou me ;-)
[17:23] Sindy Tsure eeks!
[17:23] Andrew Linden: Should I grab the chat logs from the beginning of the hour?
[17:23] Kitto Flora: No no, we need someone to rag on :)
[17:24] Sindy Tsure: i don't think you missed a ton, andrew
[17:24] Rex Cronon: no, need for logs
[17:24] Andrew Linden: ok lessee if I have any news...
[17:24] Kitto Flora: Only new item I'm looking at has to do with Permissions and border crossings. Not exactly H$ stuff
[17:25] Arawn Spitteler: Any news on SVC-2931?
[17:25] Andrew Linden: Alas, not much has happened since Tuesday, and I don't have much personal progress to report (I had to take Wed off)
[17:26] Andrew Linden: The feeling on SVC-2931 is that we don't want to fix it, but would like to make an official feature that works for what people were using it for.
[17:26] Sindy Tsure: that's the slpp tp stuff?
[17:26] Andrew Linden: yes
[17:27] Sindy Tsure: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-212 !!! 291 votes!
[17:27] Andrew Linden: I haven't had a chance to talk to the people who know why the LLTeleport idea had to be abandoned.
[17:27] Sindy Tsure: llTeleportAgent feature request
[17:27] Sindy Tsure: oh
[17:27] Andrew Linden: There was some grief mode that they didn't have a good solution for
[17:28] Sindy Tsure: is there such a capability as use-once permissions?
[17:28] Andrew Linden: no I don't think so Sindy
[17:28] Sindy Tsure: like, if you ask for debit or animate and it's accepted, it's good forever
[17:28] Sindy Tsure thought that having a use-once permission would be good for the teleport stuff
[17:29] Andrew Linden: I think that was perhaps the problem... people giving perms to teleport and then getting teleported endlessly by malicious object
[17:29] Andrew Linden: but not sure
[17:29] Arawn Spitteler: Even llTeleportAgent has to be owned by parcel owner
[17:29] Arawn Spitteler: llTeleportAgentHome
[17:29] Andrew Linden: that would wreak some havoc on some of our servers I'm sure... 1000 people in never-ending-teleport loop
[17:29] Sindy Tsure: having no idea how the sim code works, it sounds easy enough to do
[17:30] Sindy Tsure: the use-once perms
[17:30] Andrew Linden: It is always easier said than done
[17:30] Kitto Flora: Problem is how to disciminate between say a stargate - what yo walk thru and expect to move many sims away... and a grifer object that you get near and get teleported many sims away
[17:30] Sindy Tsure: but how much easier?? :)
[17:31] Andrew Linden: I've got this notion that the designers involved didn't work too hard to come up with a clever solution/feature-design that would make it possible to do
[17:31] Andrew Linden: however, I'm not sure how valid that notion is
[17:31] Andrew Linden: which is why I wanted to ask around to see what people remember about that feature discussion
[17:31] Sindy Tsure: would would be nice would be a permission popup that said the slurl it was going to
[17:31] Kitto Flora: Yeah
[17:32] Sindy Tsure: "object MyStarGate would like to teleport you to RegionX"
[17:32] Arawn Spitteler: If you get teleported, you should get a notice of by what
[17:32] Kitto Flora: Like if the llTeleport() is for more than say 20 M it pops up a yes/no query to the target Av
[17:32] Sindy Tsure: or "object Skybox would like to teleport you to location x/y on this region you're already on"
[17:32] Kitto Flora: Mmm - anything like that
[17:32] Andrew Linden: wheneve you include UI popups (a sequence of UI actions that need to complete before something happens) they it starts to get complicated pretty quickly
[17:32] Arawn Spitteler: I'm not sure that even exists for bans. It's causing some problems at Mystic Academy
[17:33] Kitto Flora: Well Buying stuff uses a UI yes/no
[17:33] Kitto Flora: Also 'quit' does :)
[17:33] Sindy Tsure: that's driven by the UI, though
[17:33] Sindy Tsure wonders if that makes a difference
[17:33] Andrew Linden: oh it can be done, just saying that the implementation starts to get much harder than just saying it
[17:34] Kitto Flora: Yep
[17:34] Sindy Tsure nods
[17:34] Arawn Spitteler: Soylent Green Collectors would be moving entire parties, without asking
[17:34] Kitto Flora: And we know what a lazy lot programmers are!
[17:34] Rex Cronon: really kitto
[17:34] Rex Cronon: i thought the motto was "work smart not hard" :)
[17:34] Arawn Spitteler: If they weren't lazy, they wouldnt strive so for efficiency
[17:35] Sindy Tsure: lazy is ok.. it's unmotivated that's the problem
[17:35] Sindy Tsure spends much time enabling her lazyness
[17:35] Andrew Linden: the properly lazy programmer would have implemented generic UI paths that could be easily co-opted for various types of pop-up, give permissions, complete features
[17:35] Kitto Flora: That needs programmers who think ahead
[17:35] Andrew Linden: some of those generic UI paths probably exist. I don't dig into the SL viewer code much these days
[17:35] Kitto Flora: Thinking ahead needs experience
[17:36] Sindy Tsure mentions http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-22 before she forgets.. vehicle sim crossing to a full parcel bug
[17:36] Sindy Tsure: :)
[17:36] Andrew Linden: Thanks for that Sindy (twitch)
[17:36] Kitto Flora: But yes - the pop-up dialog stuff is in the client... and would need to be triggered out of the script engine
[17:36] Kitto Flora: Its more like a Dialog op than anything
[17:36] Sindy Tsure: i can dig up a targetomega one to mention every week instead, if you'd like
[17:37] Kitto Flora: Special call on Dialog
[17:37] Andrew Linden: oof
[17:37] Sindy Tsure: lol
[17:37] Andrew Linden: I like SVC-22 better than any TargetOmega bug
[17:37] Andrew Linden: especially since I actually aspire to fixing SVC-22 someday
[17:37] Sindy Tsure: yay!
[17:38] Sindy Tsure: oh.. there's another one i was hoping for an opinion on.. dunno if it's your area, though
[17:38] Sindy Tsure digs for the number
[17:38] Andrew Linden: There was some activity on SVC-2511 this week. Mostly someone complaining about why it hasn't been delivered yet.
[17:39] Arawn Spitteler: What's SVC-2511?
[17:39] Andrew Linden: the 1.25-Server is waiting for some finished projects to get merged back in
[17:39] Sindy Tsure: "Serious Object-Avatar collision problems in 1.22.2 and above"
[17:39] Kitto Flora: -22 looks messy. and old. Whats the current situation with that?
[17:39] Andrew Linden: SVC-2511 is about bullets not colliding with an avatar, going right through
[17:39] Arawn Spitteler: I just flew through a roof, in Burning Lag
[17:39] Sindy Tsure: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-1224 is the one i was wondering about.. feature request for llParcelSay
[17:40] Andrew Linden: -22 is related to a few other bugs about how objects can be moved or created over sim boundaries even when the far parcel doesn't allow it
[17:40] Kitto Flora: The griefers ... er 'combat operative' always seem to get attention.
[17:40] Arawn Spitteler: I then fell a couple hundred meterus underground
[17:40] Kitto Flora: Arawan - sounds like the usual packet loss problem
[17:41] Sindy Tsure: no.. there's some semi-new bug there.. prims start acting as phantom for certain people for a while
[17:41] Sindy Tsure: clears up if you move away or sit on something
[17:41] Arawn Spitteler: PAcket loss wouldn't have explained my moving through an object, and staying moved through
[17:41] Andrew Linden: I'll have to read SVC-1224 in more detail later
[17:41] Kitto Flora: Oh yeah - temp phantom prims. Already talked about that with Andrew
[17:42] Kitto Flora: I dont like the temp phantom solution - its weird
[17:42] Sindy Tsure: it just asks for llParcelSay.. similar to llRegionSay but only goes to objects/people on the parcel that the script is on
[17:42] Andrew Linden: SVC-2511, and the "objects sometimes phantom for some people" bugs are not packet loss problems.
[17:42] Kitto Flora: Yes Andrew
[17:42] Andrew Linden: I'm unfamiliar with llRegionSay() what is that about?
[17:42] Sindy Tsure: it's like llSay but goes to the entire region
[17:42] Kitto Flora: (my packet loss comment was directed at 'going many meters underground)
[17:43] Arawn Spitteler: Object to object communication
[17:43] Andrew Linden: ah I see
[17:43] Andrew Linden: llParcelSay() would communicate to... objects on the parcel?
[17:43] Sindy Tsure: yep
[17:43] Andrew Linden: All objects? Just those specified?
[17:43] Sindy Tsure: or avatars, if you said channel 0
[17:43] Andrew Linden: hrm...
[17:44] Sindy Tsure: just like llSay but is parcel-bound, not volume-bound
[17:44] Andrew Linden: well I'll think about it, and maybe mention it to Babbage
[17:44] Andrew Linden: as I've mentioned before, new LSL functionality has been waiting for MONO to settle
[17:44] Sindy Tsure: great! it doesn't have a ton of votes but it'd be really helpful
[17:44] Sindy Tsure: yepyep.. i understand
[17:44] Andrew Linden: however, I haven't seen much discussion about banging out some new LSL features
[17:45] Andrew Linden: so I wonder how those are faring on the busy schedule
[17:45] Andrew Linden: perhaps I'm not haning out on the right communication channels to get some of the chatter
[17:46] Sindy Tsure: babbage is one of the office hours i'd like to attend.. rl work expects me to show up when he has his, though
[17:47] Andrew Linden: I've got some internal utility project coming up that I'm going to be inheriting from on of the other devs when he goes on extended vacation
[17:47] Sindy Tsure: anything fun?
[17:47] Andrew Linden: other than that, I've been participating in one of the internal bug triage queues
[17:48] Andrew Linden: and am trying to wrap up gcc-4 stuff on the side, and fix a few maintenance bugs when I get a chance
[17:48] Kitto Flora: Oh - I looked at the 'Show in Search' flags on my stuff - they were still set ok.
[17:48] Andrew Linden: that's what I've been doing lately. Not a lot of time to devote to all these bugs that need to get fixed.
[17:48] Andrew Linden: I'm hoping to wrap up this util project as soon as I can so I can get back to fixing bugs.
[17:49] Arawn Spitteler: What's a utility?
[17:49] Sindy Tsure: things still being reorg'ed into layers?
[17:49] Kitto Flora: So its official - the doubling of sim load for vehicles will never be fixed?
[17:49] Andrew Linden: ah right, the mysterious "show on search bit gets cleared" problem
[17:50] Andrew Linden: hrm... mabye no Kitto. I think the sim performance team is still going at it, however they've also been picking up emergency problems too
[17:50] Andrew Linden: Simon was eyeing some performance problems with vehicles earlier
[17:50] Arawn Spitteler: Draining the swamp waits on the alligators
[17:51] Kitto Flora: Elephants and camles
[17:51] Kitto Flora: And snakes
[17:51] Sindy Tsure: and frog
[17:51] Kitto Flora: 'Animated animals'
[17:51] Andrew Linden: right, frog
[17:51] Rex Cronon: tanks?
[17:51] Arawn Spitteler: I was trying to rez that
[17:51] Kitto Flora: Those are the latest big sim loads
[17:51] Andrew Linden: oh, the gadget only listens to you Sindy?
[17:51] Rex Cronon: u want it back?
[17:52] Sindy Tsure: yep
[17:52] Sindy Tsure: hm.. you didn't get a frog tho, andrew.. do scripts not hear chat from people in god mode?
[17:52] Leaving god mode, level 200
[17:52] Kitto Flora: Anyone know if Animated Animals use vehicle script?
[17:53] Andrew Linden: frog (non admin mode)
[17:53] Sindy Tsure: oops.. misread.. no - it listens to everybody
[17:53] Andrew Linden: ah there is my frog
[17:53] Andrew Linden: seems to be working now
[17:53] Sindy Tsure: avoid the plural...
[17:53] Andrew Linden: must have to do with admin mode
[17:53] Kitto Flora: Plagues
[17:54] Sindy Tsure: particles? i can't seem to snag one..
[17:54] Arawn Spitteler: Is this vehicle hung up, or just slow?
[17:54] Kitto Flora: Which vehicle?
[17:54] Andrew Linden: ah, Arwan are you riing that blue column we see?
[17:55] Sindy Tsure: ooo.. it's a tornado
[17:55] Kitto Flora: I see it now
[17:55] Kitto Flora: was out of frame for me
[17:55] Sindy Tsure: i think you're hung up, arawn
[17:55] Andrew Linden: looks like is just slow Arawn
[17:56] Andrew Linden: the simulator performance appears to be fine
[17:56] Kitto Flora: This sim is running LSL slow
[17:56] Kitto Flora: But its a 'open space' ?
[17:56] Sindy Tsure: it's an openspace
[17:56] Andrew Linden: oh right, this is an open space region
[17:56] Sindy Tsure: yep
[17:57] Sindy Tsure: oh.. speaking of lsl feature requests.. having a say to tell openspace vs full sim is another popular one
[17:57] Sindy Tsure: though what most people would like is to be able to see it in the Buy Land floater
[17:57] Andrew Linden: yes, that would be nice
[17:57] Kitto Flora: Too many new SL land renters/owners getting duped
[17:58] Andrew Linden: ugh
[17:58] Andrew Linden: yes, there should be some UI indication
[17:58] Sindy Tsure: have you seen the tornado hud by Tryptofaa Sands, Arawn? it's pretty wild
[17:58] Kitto Flora: Not just indication - education ...
[17:58] Andrew Linden: I'd rather get rid of open-space entirely, but I think that would be hard
[17:58] Arawn Spitteler: This one was for the DMV, but is too slow, in my opinion
[17:58] Sindy Tsure: jack would have kittens, i think
[17:58] Kitto Flora: many I talk to know its 'open space' but not how thats going to burn em
[17:59] Sindy Tsure: said oPINion..
[17:59] Andrew Linden: why is a large pushpin associated with opinion?
[17:59] Kitto Flora: o PIN ion
[17:59] Andrew Linden: oh, pin
[17:59] Sindy Tsure: again, avoid the plural
[17:59] Kitto Flora: pin pin pin pin
[17:59] Arawn Spitteler: Ion means Gone, though
[18:00] Kitto Flora: Line no pins?
[18:00] Andrew Linden: just one per chat
[18:00] Kitto Flora: We are sooo stuck up
[18:00] Sindy Tsure: yep.. it'd be spam city at my place if i did more than the 1st one on a line
[18:00] Andrew Linden: ack, it is 18:00. I'm going to have to leave very soon'
[18:01] Kitto Flora: ANyways - I'd be educating a 'open space' ower/renter every week now, if it wernt that sales have tanked
[18:01] Sindy Tsure: the forums usually have some rant about it..
[18:01] Sindy Tsure: again, that seems like it'd be low-hanging fruit.. the sim has to know if it's openspace, doesn't it?
[18:01] Arawn Spitteler: Oh, I found a counter theory, on why the recent surge. The Lehman Brothers have more time to explore
[18:02] Andrew Linden: yes Sindy, it shouldn't be too hard
[18:02] Crayon Katyusha (trail) whispers: Use Mouselook (press 'M') to shoot me.
[18:02] Crayon Katyusha (trail) whispers: Choose 'Detach' from my menu to take me off.
[18:02] Sindy Tsure: the linden that fixes that will be up to their ears in resident brownie points
[18:02] Arawn Spitteler: Do new customers not known, that it's prims that cost?
[18:03] Kitto Flora: Its scripted items that kill em
[18:03] Arawn Spitteler: Sounds like a Torly Video, comeing
[18:03] Kitto Flora: They put 3000 scripts out and wonder why nothing works
[18:03] Andrew Linden: alright, gotta go, sorry I was late
[18:03] Sindy Tsure: cya, andrew! ty!
[18:03] Arawn Spitteler: See you, Andrew
[18:04] Kitto Flora: Byebye Andrew
[18:04] Rex Cronon: bye andrew